Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 23 Mar 2019 16:16

Do you really believe things can be that well hidden in India with so many chaiwallah sources?

Seriously speaking, I'd love to conduct our affairs in that way, esp with our tenders foretelling every little bit about our non-strategic (read, nuclear) projects.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 24 Mar 2019 03:10

Any news on nirbhay?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Mar 2019 03:40

PDV seeker identifies a hot Reentry vehicle against a cool background.
The Nag seeker with a cooler would be good basis for WVR.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Mar 2019 03:41

Cain Marko wrote:Any news on nirbhay?

Maybe issues during checkout. Not taking chances?

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 24 Mar 2019 13:48

x-posting from lca mk2 thread

Karan M wrote:Two reasons to keep them around. Non traditional band radars. Second, likely to be replaced by Akash NG not Akash or another system. Very few Pechora firing units are left from the original 60.

Found this drdo article on networking of pechora system with flycather. Guessing this is the upgrade pechora might receive. Lot of technical details on working of pechora system.

https://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/in ... 10993/6077

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Mar 2019 14:44

arvin wrote:x-posting from lca mk2 thread

Karan M wrote:Two reasons to keep them around. Non traditional band radars. Second, likely to be replaced by Akash NG not Akash or another system. Very few Pechora firing units are left from the original 60.
Found this drdo article on networking of pechora system with flycather. Guessing this is the upgrade pechora might receive. Lot of technical details on working of pechora system.

https://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/in ... 10993/6077

Good Find , So DRDO integrated a MMW FC radar to the X band FC radar of Pechora system to make it jam proof .

The conclusion part is also interesting as it allows us to deeply integrate Indian system with Russian or Western system by sensor fusing varied hardware and sw system

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Mar 2019 16:48

I had posted this Flycatcher project, a couple of years back while a usual suspect was as usual running down Indian programs.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7294&p=2241506&hili ... r#p2241506

I do think though that this digitization will be a modernization of the systems themselves not a parallel networking project.

Russia, Ukraine, Poland and several other ex Warsaw pact operators offer SA3 modernization packages.

16 25 Firing Units I.e 8 12 squadrons will be modernized.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economic ... 586312.cms

ttps://www.rbth.com/economics/defence/2016/06/ ... nts_603499

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Mar 2019 17:03

How many launchers/SAM does each squadron have roughly ?

They need to make these systems mobile put it on TATA trucks

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Mar 2019 19:59

2 firing units per squadron. Each firing unit can have 3-4 launchers.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 24 Mar 2019 23:33

ramana wrote:PDV seeker identifies a hot Reentry vehicle against a cool background.
The Nag seeker with a cooler would be good basis for WVR.

Nag seeker is a single color LWIR (8 to 13 um) FPA

A2A heat seekers typically need dual color MWIR(3 to 5 um) and LWIR(8 to 13 um) hence Nag seeker would not be a plug and play.

Trust me, I have asked this question for a long that why we are not creating a WVR using Nag seeker and this is the answer I have found on the net.

There are different materials used to capture different wavelengths. Also the response time required is different for a 2D vehicle like tank vs 3D vehicle like aircraft (however slow moving).

More importantly, even the Nag seeker is not our own but comes from Sofradir who, while sells the seeker, does not provide any datasheet for the same (Apparently this is standard for all foreign govt seeker sales - be it sofradir, rafael or agat)

And when you feel bad about that, remember it was Acharya Jagadish Chandra Bose who first demonstrated Galena (PbS) has the heat sensing nature in 1901 and allowed the patent to lapse on 1904 which later formed the basis of heat seeking sensors

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... ig_1-3.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_ ... y_research

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 25 Mar 2019 01:01

Picklu wrote:
More importantly, even the Nag seeker is not our own but comes from Sofradir who, while sells the seeker, does not provide any datasheet for the same

Incorrect. Production version of Nag has a high resolution IIR seeker developed DRDO and produced by BDL.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/20 ... il2018.pdf

The major success in the Nag programme was achieved after the DRDO missile complex developed the
indigenous seeker for the Nag missile, which helped it in hitting targets successfully.
"The earlier seeker used in the missile could not differentiate between the tank and its surrounding desert
sand as the temperature difference between the two was almost negligible during the summer season.
However, the indigenous seeker has the capability to differentiate between the two and has consistently hit
targets during the trials in the last two years," the sources said.
"The fire-and-forget Nag missile with the indigenous seeker can successfully target enemy tanks even in
the worst desert conditions during summer with great accuracy," the sources said.

The seekers imported from a European country were developed as per the weather
conditions there and were not able to adapt to the extreme weather conditions in the desert terrain in India.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Mar 2019 06:09

sivab, His key point is the need for dual color sensor for AAM use.

Can we confirm the Nag seeker data sheet? I recall Current Science had a paper on it linked long ago in this forum.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 25 Mar 2019 17:23

ramana wrote:sivab, His key point is the need for dual color sensor for AAM use.

Can we confirm the Nag seeker data sheet? I recall Current Science had a paper on it linked long ago in this forum.

Dual colour seekers for ATGM are already available.
Details of L&T and MBDA JV

Before considering for AAM use, first question would be if new desi NAG IIR seeker has this feature?

Checkout desi effort by VEM tech

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 25 Mar 2019 17:35

I'll answer my question. Nag seeker is two colour!

SJha's interview with RCI director Dr G Satheesh Reddy

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Mar 2019 22:27

Picklu, Are you sure about Nag seeker being in LWIR and not MWIR?
Reason is LWIR is needed for space based sensors as LWIR can travel through atmosphere.
And Nag target engagement is all within the atmosphere.

JTull those dual band seekers (VEM and L&T) are in Visible and MWIR.
What Picklu says is MW and LW IR seekers.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 26 Mar 2019 22:29

^^ Yes, the Nag seeker is LWIR. The lower the temperature, the longer the wavelength.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Mar 2019 22:43

Ok. So India does have LW and MW IR seeker chips.
The VEM guys ave cooler technology.
So all it takes is systems integration.

Maybe as first step put those chips in a few R-73s as technology demonstrators.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 27 Mar 2019 03:42

Ramana,

While the DRDO/BDL seeker is indigenous, they need FPA detectors and I am not aware of any foundry in India that actually manufactures them at scale, they are all imported per my knowledge.
Whether it's L&T or VEM, all import the entire seeker (not just the detectors) and re-badge.
The closest we have something near commercial end to end production is Tonbo and they are mostly export oriented and not involved in Nag afaik.

And while the OEMs allow the sell of FPA, they hide the data sheet (we get limited civilian grade public information, not the military grade details) in favor of selling the entire seeker.

I would be glad to be proven wrong though

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Mar 2019 05:50

You are right. DRDO imports the FPA and uses it

So it needs a fast track project.

Shocked at cost of Nag missile due to all those improvements demanded.

Wiki says $500,000/unit

What tanks does IA want to use on?

Something is wrong.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Mar 2019 07:44

sofradir seems like the walmart of seekers. a vast range that can find application from space to man portable systems

http://www.sofradir.com/products/

we need a sofradir, Agat or El-op type govt owned or semi-pvt entity to specialize in the production and development of seeker tech for user agencies. the future is all about "networked bomb trucks" dropping off smart weapons and smart weapons rely on seekers and IRNSS(which must be brought fully redundant and coverage of a wider area)

semi pvt is best imo as gives freedom to hire and acquire whatever is needed around the world is a agile manner. airbus, eads, dassault, esa, snecma are all semi pvt orgs with govt retaining a majority and control. same for the israelis.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 27 Mar 2019 08:22

As per CAG a batch of Nag seekers was imported for Rs. 30 crores for 50 seekers, IIRC

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Mar 2019 08:30

there is no way in hell we can afford such cost to use Nag for hitting bunkers or soft skinned vehicles. will need to be kept for the 1% case of real tanks and expire on the shelf.

the MPATGM we need to ensure its cost effective for volume use, not wrapped in wool in AC bunker.

1 crore is around $150k USD. that for a 4km range weapon.

in comparison a 155mm shell is just $1000 USD. ie 150x cheaper.

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 27 Mar 2019 09:20

Everytime I see a video of a missile launch...why do I feel like..."kissi ki cheekh ki awaaz sunna"? This feels like this has been there for a long long time. I dont know how I co-relate this technology to this human action.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 27 Mar 2019 09:42

Maybe I am missing something. But wasn't Sofradir for Nag/Helina just an interim solution? We have reports of trials with indigenous seeker mentioned above in this very page.

So, what is this thing about imported seekers for Nag/Helina?

srin · Post by **srin** » 27 Mar 2019 10:52

Singha wrote:there is no way in hell we can afford such cost to use Nag for hitting bunkers or soft skinned vehicles. will need to be kept for the 1% case of real tanks and expire on the shelf.

the MPATGM we need to ensure its cost effective for volume use, not wrapped in wool in AC bunker.

1 crore is around $150k USD. that for a 4km range weapon.

in comparison a 155mm shell is just $1000 USD. ie 150x cheaper.

Why would we want an expensive seeker to destroy bunkers ? At the low end, Carl Gustav should do and at the higher end, Milan 2T should do. Nothing more sophisticated than that. And as for soft-skinned vehicles, the 30mm cannon of the BMP is more than sufficient (tempted to say 12.5mm HMG should be enough - going by videos that I have seen).

We can't be like Khan infantry, who use Javelins for bunker busting. We can't afford combat at that level of luxury.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Mar 2019 10:56

MPATGM are very useful in clearing entrenched machine gun positions especially in Mountainous areas like LOC, this the reason USA did not want us to have these in numbers as the Pakistanis would be at a disadvantage. We need them to used in numbers to create 3KM no mans land on Pakistani side of LOC,

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 27 Mar 2019 11:35

Prem Kumar wrote:Maybe I am missing something. But wasn't Sofradir for Nag/Helina just an interim solution? We have reports of trials with indigenous seeker mentioned above in this very page.

So, what is this thing about imported seekers for Nag/Helina?

You are correct about the Nag/Helina seeker. The DRDO seeker is indigenous and BDL manufactures them. Earlier imported Sofradir seeker was used.

However the heart of the seeker is the FPA detector and that's still imported while locally designing/tuning/optimizing and finally manufacturing the rest of the seeker.
The analogy here would be same as LCA and GE404/414 engine, if seeker is LCA then FPA is the engine.

Building a plant to manufacture those FPA costs a bomb plus they are closely guarded secret so lot of R&D required. Our military consumption volume does not justify either of the cost as of now and hence no progress.

However, I have high hope on Tonbo. Very prudently they are trying to build capability and capture the civilian and export military market, ignoring MoD with the disdain they deserve. Made very good progress. Similar to Tata Motors vs Vehicle Factory Jabalpur, Tonbo will give better result than BEL in the decades to come if they can persist.

Additionally, there are various types of seekers and FPA detectors, specialized for role. The Nag and AAM IIR would need different set of FPA and completely different architecture of the seeker hence building one does not make it an easy glide path for the other. Even if we go in the similar route of Nag like initially import the entire seeker and then only the FPA detector and make the seeker on our own, it would still need a lot of R&D. And that is in addition to rocketry and guidance for the WVR.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 27 Mar 2019 12:21

some missile test happened today

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Mar 2019 12:24

Related to Modi Message?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Mar 2019 12:38

India has tested an ASAT weapon

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 27 Mar 2019 12:39

Sucessful tested ASAT missile against LEO satellite

Very very elite club

Yay!

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 27 Mar 2019 12:41

That's great news. Finally time to send a signal to Lizard.

Congratulations!!!!

Jingo khush hua

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 27 Mar 2019 12:41

ASAT successfully tested.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 27 Mar 2019 12:41

ASAT the need of the hour? why even announce it?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 27 Mar 2019 12:43

Why would PM convey this message?

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 27 Mar 2019 12:46

gaurav.p wrote:ASAT the need of the hour? why even announce it?

To convey message for Lizard and internal audience.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 27 Mar 2019 12:47

gaurav.p wrote:ASAT the need of the hour? why even announce it?

It itself is huge deterrent...
Kudos to all... Godspeed DRDO.... Looks like golden time of defense Industry has just started...

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 27 Mar 2019 12:48

This is squarely aimed at the lizards. Jingo khush hua!

Kritavarman · Post by **Kritavarman** » 27 Mar 2019 12:51

Lungi Dance

Bharat Mata Ki Jai

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 27 Mar 2019 12:56

Nuclear weapons didn't do the compellence, neither will this tech.

The lizard wasn't creating any problems for you at this moment. This will just ensure further proliferation of tech nothing else.
Showing space deterrence to shiver the baki audience? who are in primitive stage in space tech.

Don't know but one doesn't show the balakot, solah proof and celebrates a ASAT test. Great optics just based on beliefs. I see it a rather a redux of smiling buddha. Modi's policies are known to him only...Kudos to the scientists for acheiving this feat.