Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Mar 2019 14:57

Quite a few test flights for SPs in last few days. at least one of them is still in half primer. 2 more days to go. Lets see if HAL hands over all 16 jets before 31st. By now I think till SP14 must have completed all trials. Only SP15 and SP16 must have few things pending. Not that couple of weeks here or there matter.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Mar 2019 17:11

They need to start working on Export Model of Tejas Mk1 , Mk1A

Should be the same as IAF version except the usual downgrade on Radar , RAM and EW/ECM front that comes with export model.
Offer Astra as BVR and other AAM/PGMs
Work on Spares Support Maintenance for export version and credit from MOF

Take export lic from countries that we use weapons engines radar etc

Some South East Asian Countries Vietnam , Indonesia , Malaysia and some Gulf ones like UAE should be a good hunting ground for Tejas.

Try to participate on all the Premier Airshows as possible.... Once they see the Bird Fly they will believe ........cost of around $40-45 million would be rightly priced

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 29 Mar 2019 17:17

gaurav.p wrote:Other tejas videos from the same person. Amatuerish camera work, someone can add a soundtrack and spam the bandar world

I wish the camera work was good, but here is one with sound track,

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 29 Mar 2019 17:39

^^ possible to make title more clickbaity
"Fighter jet that made the JF-17 chicken out twice!"

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 29 Mar 2019 17:43

gaurav.p wrote:^^ possible to make title more clickbaity
"Fighter jet that made the JF-17 chicken out twice!"

No need to drag ourselves to the pig's level and wrestle in the mud. We have bigger fish to fry and better things to do.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 29 Mar 2019 17:49

Last post regarding the title as it is OT: The prime motive is to do a little attack to the H&D of the bakis...

having the numbers, every opportunity should be taken to crush the online H&D of the bakis. They being indifferent / immune to it is completely different topic. There is no RoE on online psyops.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 29 Mar 2019 17:58

updated the title to : "Tejas MK1: The reason why JF17 chickened out of LIMA 2019 Langkawi"

naird · Post by **naird** » 29 Mar 2019 20:50

Posting a Gripen video about g forces here. These are the types of videos that the Tejas team should roll out ! It will do a world of good in terms of PR.

Mods - remove video if inappropriate for thread, but wanted to show an example.

nash · Post by **nash** » 29 Mar 2019 22:10

Work on the assembly of first Medium Weight Fighter (MWF) will start from 2021 on wards and it should be ready for first flight by end of 2022 or in 2023. If ADA manages to have its first flight by 2023 and also manages to wind up its developmental flight trials by 2028 it should be ready to enter production by 2029-30.

http://idrw.org/medium-weight-fighter-m ... -aircraft/ .

As per this MWF will enter the production by 2029-30 and we have 24 MkI and 83 MkIA to produce, so what can be the production rate.

From 2019 to 2022 HAL have to produce 8/year to meet the target order and if MkIA available by 2022 then they can produce 12 Tejas/year only to complete the production.

I don't see any case of HAL increasing their production rate to even 16/year, forget about 24/year, unless there is export order or more IAF order.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Mar 2019 22:12

Tejas team has no sense of PR. The FB team is one person who dons at least 3 hats, including that of a test engineer!

They hired a small group for a year. The group basically did it more out of their passion for the desi program than the renumerations. That was stopped as well.

They believe the product will speak for itself. I don't agree with them. One of my biggest criticisms of the program. They allowed themselves to become the butt of jokes and the target of brickbats who till this tell the difference between a Tejas and a Gripen.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 29 Mar 2019 22:17

Agree with IR!! You have to tell your story and tell it as best as you can or else someone else will tell it and that will not be a fair telling.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 29 Mar 2019 23:47

Tejas needs a blog. A weekly update, teaching the jingos Tejas 101. Build the narrative, the following is already there.
Need to do social engineering to get people to believe into going only the desi product.

I wish fanbois can create posts which answer FAQ. I can help in assimilating info if someone can guide me. BRF fellas can make small content (500-1000 words) worth blog post weekly/biweekly. The single node who is managing the social media of tejas then can post them.

1. Use of VR and other technologies during early design itself
2. The labs and facilities created and the impact of this project
3. Case of Ironbird and its utility
4. Inspiration taken from gnat** and others
5. Indian adventure with kurt tank and the marut
6. Saga of Kaveri and other cases to emulate to fix things
7. Bhopal saga and the case of DDM
8. Wishlist of replacing engines is not that easy
9. Performance comparision with contemporaries
10. EW, RWR performance of tejas
11. Aerodynamic features
12. 4++ gen features = FBW
13. Using composites over all metal ac and the role of NAL
14. The hiccup in designing the radome
15. Individual posts of different armaments
16. Intake design
17. Why delta wing ac
18. Radar development and the case if uttam
19. OBOGS and related LRUs
20. Other LRUs involved + call for indigenisation
21. Role of SMEs and the case of outsourcing
22. Automated features like plane levelling during pilot disorientation
23. Hot refuelling decreasing the turnaround time
24. How RM Parikkar reincarnated the almost dead project
25. Is it a suitable replacement for the venerated bison
26. Fight over ASQR and the need for greater cohesion rather than creation of silos
27. Role of CEMILAC and other orgs
28. How the IAF is betting on the making the tejas succeed
29. The series on stalwarts involved in designing, integrating, flying the plane
30. Future iterations of NLCA, Mk1A, Mk2, NLCA Mk2, trainers, AMCA, unmanned LCA
31. Importance of owning the IP and not just licensed production
- and many more than this nanha doesn't know of...

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 30 Mar 2019 01:41

Nobody posted this 3D design https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/post ... &__tn__=-R

- new supersonic fuel tanks on wing hardpoint
- python5?!
- HSLD bombs
- the design of hump near the tail is different?
- the number of hardpoints increased by 2, look at the inner hardpoint on the wing?
- different antennas? reshaped pylons as seen in the DDR article?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Mar 2019 04:44

Indranil wrote:Tejas team has no sense of PR. The FB team is one person who dons at least 3 hats, including that of a test engineer!

They hired a small group for a year. The group basically did it more out of their passion for the desi program than the renumerations. That was stopped as well.

They believe the product will speak for itself. I don't agree with them. One of my biggest criticisms of the program. They allowed themselves to become the butt of jokes and the target of brickbats who till this tell the difference between a Tejas and a Gripen.

That is what I was even telling some others. They (HAL and ADA) haven't gotten the foggiest idea how to manage the public image of their product or how to do effective PR. LIMA 2019 should have resulted in a flood of positive vibes and headlines with great photo ops but they don't seem to have managed it very well. Not a single PR photo shoot, no in cockpit HD vids that can make people go wow. Such a pity, considering how good their product is.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Mar 2019 08:55

#TejasUpdate

According to reports #Malaysia sends RFI to manufacturers of Yak-130, Tejas, JF-17, MB-339 and T-50 for their light fighter procurement : to procure 18 jets with option of 18 more.

(Photo courtesy: @airforcenextgen) https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 0716810241

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2019 09:04

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1111 ... 55394?s=19

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Mar 2019 10:41

The 3D is so cool!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Mar 2019 14:38

HAL's Top Scientists Explain LCA MK- 1 Cockpit

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 30 Mar 2019 17:47

This picture really looks good as wallpaper on mobile..try it with little zoom.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1111 ... 21994?s=19

M_Joshi · Post by **M_Joshi** » 30 Mar 2019 18:14

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Mar 2019 21:29

ashishvikas wrote:This picture really looks good as wallpaper on mobile..try it with little zoom.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1111 ... 21994?s=19

make it so!

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Mar 2019 04:14

In case people did not notice, we seem to have changed the overalls! It is very dark, bordering black now.Not green anymore!

esommuk · Post by **esommuk** » 31 Mar 2019 04:18

As aerial security threat perception and threshold changes due to fast changing geopolitical situation on both the borders, there will be increasing demand for more single engine fighters in huge nunbers just to enable optimal deterrence and defence capability of the Indian airspace. If HAL's production rate continues to deliver linearly as projected there is no stopping of foreign fighters coming to IAFs inventory ... maybe locally manufactured by private entities.

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Mar 2019 04:24

esommuk wrote:As aerial security threat perception and threshold changes due to fast changing geopolitical situation on both the borders, there will be increasing demand for more single engine fighters in huge nunbers just to enable optimal deterrence and defence capability of the Indian airspace. If HAL's production rate continues to deliver linearly as projected there is no stopping of foreign fighters coming to IAFs inventory ... maybe locally manufactured by private entities.

HAL cannot increase production numbers with orders like 16 IOC, 16 FOC.

There will no deliveries between April and October, because.. well there is nothing to deliver.

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Mar 2019 04:39

SaiK wrote:#TejasUpdate

According to reports #Malaysia sends RFI to manufacturers of Yak-130, Tejas, JF-17, MB-339 and T-50 for their light fighter procurement : to procure 18 jets with option of 18 more.

This is like our MMRCA, all type included. Yak, MB are pure sub-sonic trainers. LCA, JF17 are fighters. T-50(probably the favorite) is in the middle.

T-50 has F404 & 2032, just like LCA! LCA has higher thrust engine, so better payload. If Malaysia is okay with Israeli kit like 2032, then LCA may infact have a chance against T50. The major advantage LCA will have over T50 is integration with Isreali, Indian and Russia weapons, while T50 will be US weapons.

Looks like Malaysia is not sure, what it wants. Just like us.

kit · Post by **kit** » 31 Mar 2019 05:22

nam wrote:
SaiK wrote:#TejasUpdate

According to reports #Malaysia sends RFI to manufacturers of Yak-130, Tejas, JF-17, MB-339 and T-50 for their light fighter procurement : to procure 18 jets with option of 18 more.
This is like our MMRCA, all type included. Yak, MB are pure sub-sonic trainers. LCA, JF17 are fighters. T-50(probably the favorite) is in the middle.

T-50 has F404 & 2032, just like LCA! LCA has higher thrust engine, so better payload. If Malaysia is okay with Israeli kit like 2032, then LCA may infact have a chance against T50. The major advantage LCA will have over T50 is integration with Isreali, Indian and Russia weapons, while T50 will be US weapons.

Looks like Malaysia is not sure, what it wants. Just like us.

yes, that always happens in the international arms trade. The one who "will go the extra mile" will get the contract. The mile might be not entirely military specifications or brochures. And quite likely it might be the one that is not even there now.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 31 Mar 2019 08:26

I have a dumb question:

Given that the missile jammers played such a great role in the air battle over Nowshera, are we equipping the Mk1 IOC/ FOC aircraft with this equipment, or are we going to have to wait for Mk1A for it? Without this equipment, I am afraid the IOC/ FOC squadrons will be at a disadvantage against intruding Paki aircraft.

TIA

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 31 Mar 2019 10:23

It is the height of ignorance to think that India has pockets deep enough to buy equipment for IAF from phoren suppliers. The Rafale purchase will already eat the IAF‘S capex budgets for the next decade. LCA is the only way out.

IAF and HaL need to work in partnership to enhance production capabilities. There is no other way out.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 31 Mar 2019 10:27

^^^ you are right sir in Telugu there is a saying “kurchoni thinte kondalayina karigi pothayi” pardon the purity but what it says is if you sit idle and eat without working mountains of wealth will melt away

This way of buying foreign maal will melt IAF capex budget

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 31 Mar 2019 10:35

gaurav.p wrote:Tejas needs a blog. A weekly update, teaching the jingos Tejas 101. Build the narrative, the following is already there.
Need to do social engineering to get people to believe into going only the desi product.

I wish fanbois can create posts which answer FAQ. I can help in assimilating info if someone can guide me. BRF fellas can make small content (500-1000 words) worth blog post weekly/biweekly. The single node who is managing the social media of tejas then can post them.

1. Use of VR and other technologies during early design itself
2. The labs and facilities created and the impact of this project
3. nanha doesn't know of...

It is too much from baboons to do this. We can do it as a collaborative project. I am willing to get a domain, get it hosted and do some groundwork like setting up social media accounts. Not good with web design though.

esommuk · Post by **esommuk** » 31 Mar 2019 12:33

Vivek K wrote:It is the height of ignorance to think that India has pockets deep enough to buy equipment for IAF from phoren suppliers. The Rafale purchase will already eat the IAF‘S capex budgets for the next decade. LCA is the only way out.

IAF and HaL need to work in partnership to enhance production capabilities. There is no other way out.

Sir India does have deep pockets to buy foreign origin fighters off the shelf. So far it has always done so. It has even paid billions for an aircraft carrier. I don't think cash is the problem here. The establishment wants to induce domestic production as promoting import substitutes is a part of policy initiative. The intent is always there to procure large numbers of Tejas variants. The PSU has to be agile and capable of risk taking. Just because orders and contract negotiations with IAF and MOD are stuck in bureacratic wrangles that does not necessarily mean you wind down your production line and supply chain. This risk averse culture of PSU has to go.Time is of essence and squadron numbers are depleting fast. IAF will do its best to get numbers to an optimal level whether domestic or foreign.

esommuk · Post by **esommuk** » 31 Mar 2019 12:37

jamwal wrote:
gaurav.p wrote:Tejas needs a blog. A weekly update, teaching the jingos Tejas 101. Build the narrative, the following is already there.
Need to do social engineering to get people to believe into going only the desi product.

I wish fanbois can create posts which answer FAQ. I can help in assimilating info if someone can guide me. BRF fellas can make small content (500-1000 words) worth blog post weekly/biweekly. The single node who is managing the social media of tejas then can post them.

1. Use of VR and other technologies during early design itself
2. The labs and facilities created and the impact of this project
3. nanha doesn't know of...

It is too much from baboons to do this. We can do it as a collaborative project. I am willing to get a domain, get it hosted and do some groundwork like setting up social media accounts. Not good with web design though.

Sir please setup a contributions page and we all want to contribute. If we have enough funds .. which I believe we should have by fundraising, we can employ the best digital agencies to create the UX and content for us. We might even consider partnering with HAL and IAF for all the support needed. This is grossly lacking.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 31 Mar 2019 13:31

esommuk wrote:
Vivek K wrote:It is the height of ignorance to think that India has pockets deep enough to buy equipment for IAF from phoren suppliers. The Rafale purchase will already eat the IAF‘S capex budgets for the next decade. LCA is the only way out.

IAF and HaL need to work in partnership to enhance production capabilities. There is no other way out.
Sir India does have deep pockets to buy foreign origin fighters off the shelf. So far it has always done so. It has even paid billions for an aircraft carrier. I don't think cash is the problem here. The establishment wants to induce domestic production as promoting import substitutes is a part of policy initiative. The intent is always there to procure large numbers of Tejas variants. The PSU has to be agile and capable of risk taking. Just because orders and contract negotiations with IAF and MOD are stuck in bureacratic wrangles that does not necessarily mean you wind down your production line and supply chain. This risk averse culture of PSU has to go.Time is of essence and squadron numbers are depleting fast. IAF will do its best to get numbers to an optimal level whether domestic or foreign.

I think you need to think things through. There is no one selling junk military hardware at throwaway prices(with hidden strings and costs) anymore. India has not been able to buy the MMRCA despite a long fighter competition. 36 aircraft in place of the original 120-200 are on order.

But keep believing it - LCA is the MRCA and the MMRCA!!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Mar 2019 17:54

esommuk wrote:
Vivek K wrote:It is the height of ignorance to think that India has pockets deep enough to buy equipment for IAF from phoren suppliers. The Rafale purchase will already eat the IAF‘S capex budgets for the next decade. LCA is the only way out.

IAF and HaL need to work in partnership to enhance production capabilities. There is no other way out.
Sir India does have deep pockets to buy foreign origin fighters off the shelf. So far it has always done so. It has even paid billions for an aircraft carrier. I don't think cash is the problem here.

Really, we do? Can you take a look at the military budget for the past few years and the capex in specific and then re-evaluate your statements? The MOF is/has been trying to run, a tight, fiscally responsible ship.
https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/i ... ominal-gdp
Point is, there is no money tree to just tap for big-ticket purchases, though that may well change as a political decision given Pulwama and a change in our deterrence posture. As several voices are pointing out, the attitude of fiscal responsibility taking precedence over natsec spends on capex, as has been the record for decades now as the "establishment view" but that may change even though it isnt easy to do so either.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Mar 2019 18:02

Kakkaji wrote:I have a dumb question:

Given that the missile jammers played such a great role in the air battle over Nowshera, are we equipping the Mk1 IOC/ FOC aircraft with this equipment, or are we going to have to wait for Mk1A for it? Without this equipment, I am afraid the IOC/ FOC squadrons will be at a disadvantage against intruding Paki aircraft.

TIA

VCAS Nambiar said they would wish to look at all possible options, including the EW to be fitted on the Rafale.
Personally speaking, I see no reason for unecessary delay. The quickest option would be to take the EL/L-8222 pods being retired on the upgraded MiG-27s and then add them to the LCA Mk1. We have experience with the Tarang + EL/L-8222 SPJ integration on the Upg MiG-27 and the EL/M-2032 with the Jaguar IMs so, its within the competence of HAL provided OEMs also support which they would, for the right price. We really shouldn't wait to implement such low hanging fruit.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 31 Mar 2019 18:37

Karan M wrote: --snip--
Point is, there is no money tree to just tap for big-ticket purchases, though that may well change as a political decision given Pulwama and a change in our deterrence posture. As several voices are pointing out, the attitude of fiscal responsibility taking precedence over natsec spends on capex, as has been the record for decades now as the "establishment view" but that may change even though it isnt easy to do so either.

Sir, to add in a decade IAF will be purchasing two platforms simultaneously. One of them will be a 5th gen platform which will NOT be cheap.
AMCA even if not as costly a program as F22, acquisition and life cycle costs of AMCA will be atleast on par with the 2016 Rafale deal.
IDK if IAF has taken this into consideration. Buying 114 number of ANY MMRCA contender can seriously jeopardize the AMCA program of funding.

esommuk · Post by **esommuk** » 31 Mar 2019 21:05

One dumb question:

As an agile light combat aircraft it is expected that Tejas will be tasked with more sorties at an operational level and possibly fly for prolonged period of time. As endurance is less compared to medium and heavy class of fighters and with air-to-air refuelling probe to be standard in the Mk1A, do we have enough refuelling tankers in the IAF inventory or accounted for induction in a timely manner? For instance, is it going to be a per squadron tanker at least for the frontline squadrons.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Mar 2019 22:11

MKI ferry range is 8k kms. One IL78mki can refuel about 8 of them. Just calculate how many 1.7k ferry ranged Mk1a s we can buddy feed.

nash · Post by **nash** » 01 Apr 2019 00:34

HAL Plans to ramp up LCA-Tejas Mk1A Production even further

https://idrw.org/hal-plans-to-ramp-up-l ... n-further/

.

Seems like Nashik will be the third facility, but again HAL needs more order to maintain the rate of 16-24/year.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Apr 2019 00:53

souravB wrote:
Karan M wrote: --snip--
Point is, there is no money tree to just tap for big-ticket purchases, though that may well change as a political decision given Pulwama and a change in our deterrence posture. As several voices are pointing out, the attitude of fiscal responsibility taking precedence over natsec spends on capex, as has been the record for decades now as the "establishment view" but that may change even though it isnt easy to do so either.
Sir, to add in a decade IAF will be purchasing two platforms simultaneously. One of them will be a 5th gen platform which will NOT be cheap.
AMCA even if not as costly a program as F22, acquisition and life cycle costs of AMCA will be atleast on par with the 2016 Rafale deal.
IDK if IAF has taken this into consideration. Buying 114 number of ANY MMRCA contender can seriously jeopardize the AMCA program of funding.

I am not sure whether AMCA will be available for purchase by 2019. Even otherwise though, we need to fund around 83 LCA Mk1A, 114 MMRCA, Su-30 MKI upgrades, 200 LCA Mk2s/MWFs, additional attrition replacement Su-30 MKIs (8), perhaps 21 MiG-29s + upgrade.. and then the AMCA.

This is what comes of a decade of economic mismanagement (the UPA era) + no accretions to the IAF even as squadron numbers started falling rapidly.

So as you can see the capex is going to be huge even otherwise. Balancing all this against the Indian publics addiction to freebies and irresponsible life choices (People who are struggling to make their own ends meet having multiple kids) for which GOI has to pick up the bill (or the politicians lose the election), plus the huge infra spends.. is not going to be easy.

I leave it to the true experts like Suraj et al to determine how we will be able to fund everything, but IMHO, we will have to relax some of our fiscal propriety measures. But since we are a growing economy, this investment in our natsec will IMHO work to our advantage in terms of increasing our overall economic growth by adding stability. Even investors will be reassured if they see we can stand up to PRC and Pak.