Indian ASAT Test

[Kashi]

I am surprised such people manage to secure a tenure in premier US universities.

[Khalsa]

and why on earth would China destroy our satellites when we are destroying a Nuclear Armed Islamic Pariah's satellites.
they need to practice what they preach. if they want to be an Asian Super Power and a Pacific Super Power.
Start acting like one and they probably will.

This author is an idiot ... gorrilas have more IQ

[chetak]

I am surprised such people manage to secure a tenure in premier US universities.

his research funds and the security and longevity of his tenure, or even the possibility of his acquiring a tenure in case he hasn't got tenure already depends heavily on repeated as well as the periodic public demonstration his coolie capabilities and his sepoy qualities.

[ArjunPandit]

I am surprised such people manage to secure a tenure in premier US universities.

Completely OT:
actually it is not surprisng to me at all. Most US universtities are magnets for indophoics. Those who are not, get converted. Most of the folks I know hate India RSS and bash India, caste system, put down indian scientific accomplishments on twitter. These are the kind of folks you'll see on CNN claiming india to be a rag tag army. Take another example Garga Chatterjee the brain scientist who says indian states should renegotiate power on the lines of US states. Supports Nehru forgetting that Nehru was the one who wanted a system unlike US where states dont have more power than center.

[VikramA]

Decoding the anti-satellite weapon test
https://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/news/ ... 51313.html

Interesting read. Looks and reads credible. The article claims that India has not invested enough in R&D in IIR sensor tech. As such only after Limitations under MTCR were lifted were IIR sensors available from foreign vendors. IIR TOT was available in 96 for less than 100 cr under GoI did not want to pay it and then in 98 sanctions were implemented removing that option

[Prasad]

2017 test was with an IIR seeker followed by the AAD test that also used IIR seeker. So...

[Ravi Karumanchiri]

NASA Says Debris From India’s Antisatellite Test Puts Space Station at Risk

NEW DELHI — NASA has criticized India for the antisatellite test it carried out with great fanfare last week, saying it was riskier than officials claimed and created debris that could threaten the International Space Station.

“That kind of activity is not compatible with the future of human spaceflight that we need to see have happen,” Jim Bridenstine, NASA’s administrator, said on Monday at a town hall event in Washington organized by the agency.

He said that India, in shooting down one of its own satellites with a rocket, had left debris high enough in orbit to pose a risk to the International Space Station, calling that a “terrible, terrible thing.” The space station currently hosts a crew of six people.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the downing of the satellite last Wednesday, a test launch that put India in an exclusive group of nations — along with the United States, China and Russia — with the capability to destroy targets in space.

<snip>

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/02/worl ... e=Homepage

[Karan M]

Ravi, what was the point of the over-large font size for the title? I edited it but please be more aware in the future.

[Austin]

NASA Says Debris From India’s Antisatellite Test Puts Space Station at Risk

Will have too see what other stake holder of Space Station say on this like Russian Roscosmos and other agency.

They ship cargo and astronauts to ISS via Soyuz Rocket ..... And do the Russian space agency concur what NASA says.

So far Russians have been positive about Indian ASAT test but that is more at political level , From ISS pov Roscosmos comment on so called Space Debris will be useful

[ramana]

disha what is the ISS orbit? And how does it reconcile with the MicroSat R orbit and the ASAT test?

Also some one compare and contrast the initial news release by Space Command to the NASA chief statement.
Some thing is different.

[UlanBatori]

NASA wants funding for Orbital Debris Removal. Q.E.D. Kindly don't bring outlandish concepts such as Truth and Commonsense into a Budget Request, hain?

[Zynda]

Dissemination of alleged failure of Feb 12 ASAT test is starting on a National level. RundiTV is running an article with it. The article makes it sound like "experts" from Federation of American Scientists are of the opinion that Feb 12 ASAT attempt failed. However, when going through the article, it seems like the expert (yes one individual) is one person Ankit Panda. He is however a member of FAS.

Further, the NDTV article is authored by Vishnu Som. I did not find any mention in Vishnu's article of DRDO saying that Feb 12 attempt was against an electronic target. Anyways, even if it was a failure, I don't know why people are driven to make a big deal out of it. Perhaps, due to the fact that March 27th success & the perception of BJP taking credit for it...makes secularists to play down the event as much as possible.

[syam]

ISS perigee is 403 km, apogee 408km. How the hell the debris will affect it?

[disha]

I am surprised such people manage to secure a tenure in premier US universities.

Actually it is a game. In marketing, sometimes there is no such thing as "negative publicity". MIT is *not* known for its "Political Science" department. But let us say you have money, an agenda and a university aligned with your agenda, then you can start a "chair for political science" and in return your entire progeny can avail to go to MIT (just to burnish their credentials in whatever "job" they are doing and sucker in others to fund their "projects").

Now the Political Science dept. head has money but needs attention. So goes around the town taking a contrarian position or outrageous position and starts getting attention. Mission accomplished. Now the next step is to get more funding. Given the attention, getting to funding is now a little easier.

Same with NASA. NASA wants to monitor all debris floating around in space and needs funding. Hence the statements to its Congress, which the #mediapimps in India are going to twist. Further gullible posters on this thread will post it in big block letters and cry wolf. Sometimes you just ignore the talking heads, even if they are heads of NASA and move on.

[disha]

ISS perigee is 403 km, apogee 408km. How the hell the debris affect it?

Their take is that a piece or two of centimeter sized debris *might* have been pushed to higher orbit and *may* jeopardize ISS and hence please give us more funding to monitor it.

[disha]

Dissemination of alleged failure of Feb 12 ASAT test is starting on a National level. RundiTV is running an article with it. The article makes it sound like "experts" from Federation of American Scientists are of the opinion that Feb 12 ASAT attempt failed. However, when going through the article, it seems like the expert (yes one individual) is one person Ankit Panda. He is however a member of FAS.

A. Ganda can say whatever he wants. For that matter, PSLV and GSLV also failed once. Or Agni II also had some initial failures. We do not have to give credence to what they say.

[Anant]

I'm an Indian American scientist and attorney. I'll just chime in my 2 cents. First, it's completely unsurprising to read the bs cnn article about NASA. Face it, NASA is racist. It's all well and good (and safe) when the US, Russia etc test ASAT's but bad when the brown man does it. It's even more sad that there are Indian lackeys in the US who are towing the line of the white man for prestige, tenure and the like. I laughed when I read that article. It has sour grapes written all over it. For a country that detonated nukes in space to educate a country who is doing things for self-defense from the two biggest proliferators of terrorism on Earth (Pakistan and China) is laughable. I've also given up seeing NDTV or going to their website. They are as anti-Indian as these people. Keep up the good work India and forge ahead.

[ramana]

syam or anyone fill in this table:

ISS orbit 403 km perigee 408 apogee

MicroSatR perigee apogee


RiaSat I perigee apogee

Thanks, ramana
ASAT

[ramana]

Some one else compare and contrast statements by Space Command and NASA

[syam]

Their take is that a piece or two of centimeter sized debris *might* have been pushed to higher orbit and *may* jeopardize ISS and hence please give us more funding to monitor it.

Both of the orbits are like 100km apart. Can something float away from earth after collision? Wish I am a space scientist.

[syam]

ramana sir, i am not able to find the exact numbers. As per isro and wiki,

Microsat-R

Microsat-R, an imaging satellite was successfully injected into intended orbit of 274 km by PSLV-C44 on January 24, 2019

RISAT-1

After launch RISAT-1 was placed in 470 x 480 km orbit with near 97 degree inclination. In next two days RISAT-1 raised its orbital altitude using on-board propulsion to place itself into its operational sun-synchronous orbit of 536 km with 6:00 AM Equatorial Crossing Time.

[Ravi Karumanchiri]

Ravi, what was the point of the over-large font size for the title? I edited it but please be more aware in the future.

I didn't realize there was a style guide for BRF. Setting-up the title of an article in large, bold font is just my habit; I do it everywhere. No emphasis was intended. Please note, I posted the above article without comment or remark; because I thought it relevant to the topic (what PR fallout has come).

While we're on the topic: I came across this article on the same issue on Al Jazeera, and by my estimation, it's the fairest one out there...

Indian missile test endangers International Space Station: NASA
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/04/ ... 02968.html

This AJE article mentions....

The Indian satellite was destroyed at a relatively low altitude of 300km, well below the ISS and most satellites in orbit.

But 24 of the pieces "are going above the apogee of the International Space Station," said Bridenstine.

The US military tracks objects in space to predict the collision risk for the ISS and for satellites. They are currently tracking 23,000 objects larger than 10cm.

That includes about 10,000 pieces of space debris, of which nearly 3,000 were created by a single event: a Chinese anti-satellite test in 2007 at 852km from the surface.

As a result of the Indian test, the risk of collision with the ISS has increased by 44 percent over 10 days, Bridenstine said.

But the risk will dissipate over time as much of the debris will burn up as it enters the atmosphere.

In a related topic: Within the last 2-3 years, I remember seeing a TV program that noted the existence of some Russian-origin space debris; which was being tracked for a while, and seemed like totally inert space debris; which all of a sudden, seemed to "come to life" and move independently of inertial trajectories and even navigate towards a US military satellite. This is the kind of ASAT weapon system that India needs.

As far as an ASAT weapon test goes; hitting a satellite with a missile is an inherently messy proposition, with some obvious downsides. (NB: I'm not trying to imply that this ASAT test should not have been carried out by India; only that there are indeed downsides.)

What is needed, is an anti-satellite micro-satellite, that has the ability to track and maneuver up to a target satellite, throw a net over it or some similar approach to physically ensnare it (perhaps using adhesives and some design inspired by a jelly fish, or maybe a chameloeon's tongue, I dunno). With the target satellite trapped, the anti-satellite micro-satellite would then fire a rocket or explosive charge to purposefully de-orbit the entire target satellite in a single piece. NO DEBRIS!

Further consider: India has already demonstrated the ability to launch dozens of micro-satellites in a single shot. This is any day, a more economical and more comprehensive approach, than the one-shot, one-kill approach demonstrated by India recently. (Is this my idea, or am I just seeing hints of what is coming?)

JMT.

[ramana]

Thanks syam,

syam or anyone fill in this table:

ISS orbit 403 km perigee 408 km apogee

MicroSatR 274 km sun synchronous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsat-R & https://www.livemint.com/


RiaSat I 536km sun synchronous orbit.



Thanks, ramana
ASAT

ASAT Kill vehicle design is hit to kill and impact was within 10 centimeters.

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... -isro.html

And read Dr. Reddy statement that the test was designed to minimize debris and ensure no damage to other space structures. Hence the low 274 km orbit was chosen.

So its remote possibility that NASA complaint is valid as 27 March Test debris generation is by a HTK vehicle and in lower orbit.

Now Hemant Rout says in his info-graphic that there is Radio Proximity fuse (RPF) on the kill vehicle.

Only way an Indian ASAT can create debris is if RPF is functioned against other satellites in higher orbits.
This did not happen in this instance on 27 March 2019 test.
If NASA has other information they should share it.
Its possible they are confusing with debris from other nations test or Mao's loud f@rts.

[Karan M]

I didn't realize there was a style guide for BRF. Setting-up the title of an article in large, bold font is just my habit; I do it everywhere. No emphasis was intended. Please note, I posted the above article without comment or remark; because I thought it relevant to the topic (what PR fallout has come)..

We are not very picky, usually we don't appreciate multiple fonts, colors, large small etc. It becomes garish, and a pain to read as well. An occasional exception is made for some useful info. In this case, the above was just the usual from NYT, so why the large font? Hence my point. Anyhow, glad you clarified.

[sanjaykumar]

Thanks syam,

syam or anyone fill in this table:

ISS orbit 403 km perigee 408 km apogee

MicroSatR 274 km sun synchronous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsat-R & https://www.livemint.com/


RiaSat I 536km sun synchronous orbit.



Thanks, ramana
ASAT

ASAT Kill vehicle design is hit to kill and impact was within 10 centimeters.

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... -isro.html

And read Dr. Reddy statement that the test was designed to minimize debris and ensure no damage to other space structures. Hence the low 274 km orbit was chosen.

So its remote possibility that NASA complaint is valid as 27 March Test debris generation is by a HTK vehicle and in lower orbit.

Now Hemant Rout says in his info-graphic that there is Radio Proximity fuse (RPF) on the kill vehicle.

Only way an Indian ASAT can create debris is if RPF is functioned against other satellites in higher orbits.
This did not happen in this instance on 27 March 2019 test.
If NASA has other information they should share it.
Its possible they are confusing with debris from other nations test or Mao's loud f@rts.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi ... 012726.pdf

The Soviet/Russian module has apparently fired thrusters >20 times to 'avoid' debris. The increased p by 44% is however rather disingenuous without specifying that the 44% increase is a over a very small probability.


At any rate NASA's concerns should be noted.

[ramana]

sanjay Isnt it rich to blame those thuster firing on debris from Indian test/
Currently debris in space
- US has 4000 pieces
- Russia has 3961
- China has 3465
- India has 60*

I think BRF members are truly MUTU as M_Srini said long ago.

MUTU= More Unkilly than Unkil

* will de-orbit in next 45 days.

[Pathik]

NASA Says Debris From India’s Antisatellite Test Puts Space Station at Risk

NEW DELHI — NASA has criticized India for the antisatellite test it carried out with great fanfare last week, saying it was riskier than officials claimed and created debris that could threaten the International Space Station.

“That kind of activity is not compatible with the future of human spaceflight that we need to see have happen,” Jim Bridenstine, NASA’s administrator, said on Monday at a town hall event in Washington organized by the agency.

He said that India, in shooting down one of its own satellites with a rocket, had left debris high enough in orbit to pose a risk to the International Space Station, calling that a “terrible, terrible thing.” The space station currently hosts a crew of six people.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the downing of the satellite last Wednesday, a test launch that put India in an exclusive group of nations — along with the United States, China and Russia — with the capability to destroy targets in space.

<snip>

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/02/worl ... e=Homepage

Havent we seen this before? When the allies use up petrol and pollute its called development and when others do it its global warming and sanctions

[sanjaykumar]

No question about it. However the debris needs a subgroup analysis. That is how much overlaps the ISS orbit and for how long? Of course if there were 4 pieces whizzing around and now there are 6, India can be so accused.

Outrage over mindless atomic testing so that every baby on Earth ingested significant strontium 90 is secondary to the possibility that the 6 Indian underground tests vented radioactivity.

The answer is not outrage at unfair accusations but to test 400 devices in the atmosphere, burn 5 billion tons of coal a year etc etc.

[nachiket]

The answer is not outrage at unfair accusations but to test 400 devices in the atmosphere, burn 5 billion tons of coal a year etc etc.

Why one or the other? Double standards and selective outrage can be exposed regardless of whether we are burning 5 billion tonnes of coal etc.

[sanjaykumar]

That is correct. But there are some so obtuse who need a potential demonstration.

It is an evolutionarily based cognitive bias really. The brain has evolved to prioritise threats. Immediate and demonstrable danger compels change in behaviour. The Russians and now the Chinese know this well. Japan and India have not gone this route and both punch below their weight.

[ramana]

Oh.
You are talking about the reptilian brain versus the cortex.
Its also civilizational.

The West, Russia and China under Mao have become normatized and hence the creative minds is neutered.
Japan and India due to the Hindu and Buddhist ethos value both sides of the brain.

[vera_k]

India still has long way to go on ensuring space security: US experts
"If Pakistan starts hitting Indian satellites , India can knock out Pakistan's very few satellites. China can knock out all of India's satellites whereas India cannot do the same to China.

More to the point, India only has to knock down Pakistani and Chinese satellites over West Asia and India. USA can knock down Chinese satellites over East Asia. So where's the problem?

The test does raise the cost for China, since more satellites have to be launched to ensure coverage over West Asia and India.

[Ardeshir]

Not a rant, but serious pooch - how do people like this Narang guy become professors at MIT? Is it due to confirmation biases of the goras who like to keep believing that desi == SDRE good for nothing?

[Singha]

they are usually from rich/connected families in india - delhi/mumbai background - UG in some elite liberal arts college abroad , followed by path to phd/think tanks . unlike STEM if you have the cash and patience to keep studying, writing and building your profile with internships and think tanks, there is probably not fierce competition for this line of work.

and I am yet to see anyone who is nationalistic to their own former homeland get into these academic seats abroad....

people who roam the groves of gora academe may have deeper insights.

to an extent 'radicals' and 'contrarians' find a cozy place in some universities like berkeley, columbia nyc, mit .... this huge kabila of univs and think tanks focussed on 'disarmament and non-proliferation' is used by massa to push their narrative in a suave polished way as extended arm of state dept. what the chinese do via crude articles and heckling speeches, massa has honed the art of appearing very reasonable and using 'sepoys' to hit back at each country. if its russia, there are russian sepoys, if its india, there are indian sepoys too....chinese sepoys and 'expat dissidents' hardly any as they and their families are thrown in jail if they visit desh

people do not see the irony of the worlds biggest arms seller, bigger defence spender and biggest fighter of wars also having the biggest non-proliferation cottage industry

[Ardeshir]

This Narang guy studied Chemical Engineering at Stanford, and then went down the SJW path with humanities it seems. The only Indic professor that I've come across (or can think of) who isn't a die-hard anti-India clown is Vamsi Juluri.

[Singha]

I suppose beyond the heights of crude STEM, there is the realm of metaphysics, world peace and philosophy and enlightened higher souls find that path...

[ramana]

Singha,I think there is as message that needs to be unwrapped in the NASA statement. We are too harsh to get it. Think it over.

[JayS]

What did the NASA statements say on US ASAT tests by the way..??

[ramana]

Thanks syam,

syam or anyone fill in this table:

ISS orbit 403 km perigee 408 km apogee

MicroSatR 274 km sun synchronous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsat-R & https://www.livemint.com/


RiaSat I 536km sun synchronous orbit.



Thanks, ramana
ASAT

ASAT Kill vehicle design is hit to kill and impact was within 10 centimeters.

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... -isro.html

And read Dr. Reddy statement that the test was designed to minimize debris and ensure no damage to other space structures. Hence the low 274 km orbit was chosen.

So its remote possibility that NASA complaint is valid as 27 March Test debris generation is by a HTK vehicle and in lower orbit.

Now Hemant Rout says in his info-graphic that there is Radio Proximity fuse (RPF) on the kill vehicle.

Only way an Indian ASAT can create debris is if RPF is functioned against other satellites in higher orbits.
This did not happen in this instance on 27 March 2019 test.
If NASA has other information they should share it.
Its possible they are confusing with debris from other nations test or Mao's loud f@rts.

Swarajya writes

https://twitter.com/SwarajyaMag/status/ ... 81857?s=19

[disha]

Both of the orbits are like 100km apart. Can something float away from earth after collision? Wish I am a space scientist.

This is getting polemic. But let me attempt (and a better persons will be physics gurus on this forum).

Sometimes on Earth we find rocks from Mars (or moon) (link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_meteorite). Point is that an asteroid impact imparts a enough velocity and direction to a particle to throw that particle (compared to Mars) into Earth's orbit to be captured as a meteorite. It is very very rare (like say one in 100 million), but it happens.

Similarly one can apply law of conservation of momentum and *theoretically* state *anything* on a two-body collision in space including stating that at least one particle may have been ejected into higher orbit.

However, using the above to stress that this very impact is now creating a dangerous debris field for others is extremely disingenuous. It is like saying that the recent solar flare caused skin cancer on the butts of some NASA engineer when they were sun-bathing in their backyard. Fact: Solar flare occurs. Fact: Solar radiation can cause skin cancer. Fact: Sun-bathing for some does expose one to solar radiation. This is woulda/coulda/ which goes into the famous parable espoused here "If my aunt would had a moustache she could have been my uncle".

Hence to stretch into a causation from an event by stringing up "facts" is disingenuous and that is where NASA has failed and ended up showing its bigotry.

Ramana'Sir, I as much pointed to the part where cockroaches will come out of wood work and gas light the ASAT test. On the debris part, one should discount NASA's f@rts and just go by space command's initial observation:

The U.S. military’s Strategic Command was tracking more than 250 pieces of debris from India’s missile test and would issue “close-approach notifications as required until the debris enters the Earth’s atmosphere,” Pentagon spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Dave Eastburn said.

They did not issue any close-approach notifications yet and one should go by Dr. Reddy's assertion that the debris will be dying down in 45 days should be taken as primary and the only thing. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indi ... SKCN1R91DM