MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Apr 2019 12:33

airborne datalinks tend to be lower bandwidth. Link16 / russian lazur / swede tidls
link16 is limited to 115 kbps, though claim is it can support 1 mbps. maybe for backward compat with older nato gear its kept low and for better data error rate.

ereyie and the paki fsolahs have link16

I think the f22 and jsf have higher bandwidth line of sight datalinks among their fellow jsf/f22 or some kinda high bw satcom to "log into the network" but again for backward compat the jSF iirc carriers link16 also.

so really not much chance of streaming video from every plane to a cloud server on the awacs or ground.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 12:45

Singha wrote:also the hero who came with the 4 missiles 'leak' and most of the twitter army are too young to understand the lahore shootdown of searcher drone by AIM9L of a F-solah in 2001.

maybe they were pre-teen at that time and more into reading comics and stuff.

if you recall that afternoon he released the pic, I spotted it and said nothing. that night when someone posted it here,I dug out those pics of the intact seeker head from pakdef forums and posted it here.

AAMs are not impact bombs where all will be shattered. the python5 may be a hittile (if it can get a chance). a lot of money and effort is put into the laser/RF proximity fuse as that affects the kill probability. its tied to inputs from the IIR/RF seeker. the better IIR seeker can id the parts of a fighter and algorithm is there to tell which parts to target. with closing speed of mach5+ for a head on intercept of a supersonic target , the fuse is the most sensitive and TFTA part of the whole kit...it has to be accurate to within nanoseconds probably or it will be a clean miss from a "flyby"

AoA Birader, that was a great find. That pic was a gem. Found this as well.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 12:49

Proof that AMRAAMs have self-destruct devices which destroy the missile, when its an "unguided unit" and hence, this mid-air destruction has the potential of spreading wreckage even further around than a round slamming into the ground at speed.

https://www.wbparts.com/rfq/1336-01-394-3879.html
1336-01-394-3879 A device consisting mainly of a self-destruct charge, associated initiating device and, as a rule, also of a safety device and designed to self-destruct a guided missile in flight. In case the guided missile gets out of control, the device is activated by a remote control or independent device connected to the self-destruct device. Excludes SELF-DESTRUCT CHARGE, GUIDED MISSILE.

Technical Data | NSN 1336-01-394-3879
Characteristic Specifications
DOD AMMUNITION CODE 1336-HY63
SPECIAL FEATURES CONTAINS A LINEAR SHAPED CHARGE WHICH SEVERS THE MISSILE JUST AFT OF THE FWD HOOK;LIVE CONFIG WITH YELLOW BAND AROUND
III END ITEM IDENTIFICATION JAIM-120A AMRAAM MISSILE SYSTEM
III PART NAME ASSIGNED BY CONTROLLING AGENCY FTS EXPLOSIVE DISH ASSEMBLY
MANUFACTURERS CODE 82577
MFR SOURCE CONTROLLING REFERENCE 3819863-1

chola · Post by **chola** » 09 Apr 2019 12:51

Never wrestle with pigs. You can never convince them that living in a world of sh!t is not good. The more we reply, the more we get smeared with their filth.

The truth is propaganda means nothing in a world of kinetics. Baghdad Bob didn't affect the US military one bit besides providing entertainment. Our response should be with force in the same manner not words.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 12:55

This is a battle of perception and every bit counts. We don't have a hot war, but an ongoing attempt to run Paki H&D into the ground. Even the IAF feels so, otherwise it would not release details. Do your bit!

chola · Post by **chola** » 09 Apr 2019 13:04

^^^ I have in the opening days of the affair and will still get in a jab here and there on twitter. The problem is too much back and forth with the pigs and it veers dangerously close to being equal-equal with them again.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Apr 2019 13:20

Look at Gafoora and Paki position changes from 26 Feb 19.

1) IAF came 4-5Km inside POk hit 2 trees and went back, we can show Balakot, Muzaffarabad, Chakoti etc nothing hit.

2) 27 Feb we came to hit trees with JF 17 , JF 17 shot down 1 Mig 21 Bison and 1 SU 30, I Pilot captured, 1 in Hospital and 1 on India side, Euphoria all over Pak with Social Media going Ballistic

3) Then only 1 Indian pilot captured only JF 17 used. IF India has radar tracks of F16 going down show it

4) then we used all Aircraft in PAF inventory including F-16, no talk of 2nd pilot who he claimed on Pak TV died in a Paki hospital on 5 Mar. Now we are switching to PL 15 since AMRAAM was defeated

5) Meanwhile LOC firing keeps going on, cant take Pakistaniyat out while officers 10 a day, brigadiers are missing

6) out of turn promotions to 40 PA Men, lots of Drones lost only 1 PN submarine operational.

7) US reporter has said no all F16 counted, self cheers, Pentagon says "Not Aware" of any counting, I mean DG ISPR, Imran Khan et al are " Not Aware" that there was no counting done by Pentagon staff?? Hmm

Now we spoofed IAF radars, shot Mig 21- No talk of Su 30 MKI- WHy cant they show thier Radar tracks, showing an exploded r-73 as proof of no R-73 used?.

You can do only soo much on Twitter and social media when facts wotk out against you I guess.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 13:32

chola wrote:^^^ I have in the opening days of the affair and will still get in a jab here and there on twitter. The problem is too much back and forth with the pigs and it veers dangerously close to being equal-equal with them again.

It's never equal equal. Land more on them than you get. Dance like a butterfly sting like a bee. You are the namesake of a conquering empire!!

And dont get too caught up in the drama of proving your point to the dunces. Remember your guys already shot down a F16. This is just icing on the cake and getting the boys in blue, their due.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Apr 2019 13:45

Can I give an advice to all chair force wallas.

When in doubt claim victory and never concede. Let the other guy prove that we lost.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 09 Apr 2019 16:12

Video put up by PGgurus on the circumstantial evidence put up by IAF on the F16 shoot down, in discussion with so called “expert” Abhijit

Well he explains how the inspections are conducted and it’s not a roll call. Secondly, that information is classified between Americans & Pakis and not available easily to un-named sources to disseminate over a few drinks to hacks like Lara whatever.

Interestingly he mentions that we should be thankful to the Americans as they disabled the Paki 16’s from the capability of caring Nukes! Is that really a fact? or is it only the newer F16’s that came with Amraams

Shivaji · Post by **Shivaji** » 09 Apr 2019 16:21

pankajs wrote:^^
Correct.

Or do a sting on a Serving PAF high ranking offical or Gafoor and get them to admit their losses on hidden camera and pass it on to the Indian channels or something of that nature.

BUT what this has done is completely sidelined the Balakot loss of face for the porkies! After a sufficient time we need multiple tape(s) on that too.

If wishes could be horses ....

Welcome back pankajs saar..

I had come across this tweet and photo about PAF Forward Air Controllers on the day of air skirmish:

https://twitter.com/Pines1782/status/11 ... 0165255168
"PAF: The Forward Air Controllers of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Air Defence who guided the two PAF pilots in the downing of an Indian Air Force Su-30MKI and MiG-21 Bison on the morning of 27 February 2019 over Azad Kashmir #Pakistan #PakistanAirForce #PAF"

This tweet was tagged to one more person who had tweeted this on 6th March:
https://twitter.com/Squad_Leader130/sta ... 0056973312
"I lost someone close this morning and the sad part is, i wont be able to see that person face for the very last time.
Prayers needed."

Not saying that above refers to pilot in CMH, but this person's Tweeter name is Sherdil Khan (might be squadron) and he seems to be retired PAF. He states that he wont be able to see face of that person.

Note that Gafoor had appeared on one Pakistani channel on 5th March and indicated that PAF pilot in CMH has died.
https://twitter.com/AnaghaPrabhu3/statu ... 4942871553

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 09 Apr 2019 17:12

^^
When the bakis are unable or unwilling to accept multiple contradictory statements of Gafoor and Dimran tweets of anonymous handles will be brushed aside.

Still, our job is to keep pounding them on Gafoor's 2 pilots statement and Dimran's statement and u-turn.

habal · Post by **habal** » 09 Apr 2019 17:27

where is a 10 sec video posted where a mig-21 is furiously chasing another plane ... err electronic decoy.

well found it & what a convincing electronic decoy it is ..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 17:34

Anish, take everything Abhijit posts on tech stuff with a skeptical eye. Great enthusiasm, not really accurate otherwise.

It does not take rocket science for Pakistanis to work with Turkish engineers to modify the Jordanian F16s for nuclear strike with gravity bombs.

All you need to do is ensure that the right form and fit with existing weaponry/heavy stores is maintained to avoid any disruption in bomb deployment from the viewpoint of aircraft Cg for instance and what the FBW can handle. Furthermore, the bombs need to be within aircraft safe limits structurally and dimensionally (i.e. it should not come in the way of landing gear, block any existing weaponry). Then you ensure the right weapons deployment parameters are included in the F16 mission computers, to ensure the bomb is released correctly with the right ballistic parameters (so it hits the target as intended or rather gets to the right altitude for an airburst) and second, within aircraft/pilot safe limits (they have ample time to escape, or an indicator appears on the display stating the same).

The bomb itself may have a separate electronic lock for the fusing, extra protection for the nuclear aspect, again, this can be jury rigged from the cockpit bypassing the F16 weapon control system if push came to shove. Or, before the aircraft takes off, the bomb fusing is activated by ground crew.

The Turks and Pakistanis are both very familiar with integration of 3rd party gear on the F16 to pull this off.

Bottomline, dont take what Abhijit is saying as gospel. IMHO, he is being unduly complacent.

The Pakistanis only have 80 odd fighters which are state of the art (at least by TSP standards), have proper EW, radar, missiles for self protection. Plus the performance to actually get into Indian territory (in an ideal case).

Obviously this would be their core strike fleet!

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 09 Apr 2019 17:41

That apart, shouldn't there be consequence for those who support pakis directly in war ? Past wars these biradri mulks didn't face any retaliation for directly supporting pakis. IMO, we need to make it clear that any more such support will have consequences, need not be military but diplomatic and economic or we'll use fault lines in those countries to create trouble.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 17:45

If you are economically strong enough, you can impose costs. Right now, lets be honest, we are the ones appealing to them for FDI. Perhaps another decade.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 09 Apr 2019 17:58

anishns wrote: Interestingly he mentions that we should be thankful to the Americans as they disabled the Paki 16’s from the capability of caring Nukes! Is that really a fact? or is it only the newer F16’s that came with Amraams

Like Karan M pointed out, pakis get numerous helping hands from around the world for tampering with khan's alleged controls. Khan knows all that but ignores them and still sells stuff that they dont need for regional balance.

eg: here is a claim on similar lines from the same memo from khan amby, where she justified the sale of AMRAAMS to pakis, saying it is going to keep IAF in check for days, by successfully shooting down Indian servicemen:

Date: 18-Mar-2009

3. (C) While we understand New Delhi's opposition to the
program, the reality is that this program will not degrade
India's overwhelming air superiority over Pakistan. Reducing
the munitions package will not significantly affect either
costs or regional stability. We have and will deny arms
sales that we believe would upset the regional balance of
power, as we have with the recent GOP request to buy the
Coastal Targeting Suppression System, which enables Harpoon
missiles to be fired at land or near-land targets using GPS
technology.

Date: 30-Aug-2009

U.S. Says Pakistan Made Changes to Missiles Sold for Defense

At issue is the detection by American intelligence agencies of a suspicious missile test on April 23 — a test never announced by the Pakistanis — that appeared to give the country a new offensive weapon.

American military and intelligence officials say they suspect that Pakistan has modified the Harpoon antiship missiles that the United States sold the country in the 1980s, a move that would be a violation of the Arms Control Export Act. Pakistan has denied the charge, saying it developed the missile itself. The United States has also accused Pakistan of modifying American-made P-3C aircraft for land-attack missions, another violation of United States law that the Obama administration has protested.

Whatever their origin, the missiles would be a significant new entry into Pakistan’s arsenal against India. They would enable Pakistan’s small navy to strike targets on land, complementing the sizable land-based missile arsenal that Pakistan has developed. That, in turn, would be likely to spur another round of an arms race with India that the United States has been trying, unsuccessfully, to halt. “The focus of our concern is that this is a potential unauthorized modification of a maritime antiship defensive capability to an offensive land-attack missile,” said another senior administration official, who also spoke on the condition of anonymity because the matter involves classified information.

So the Ambassador wrote a memo claiming exactly one month before a live test that "Pakistan has been successfully stalled from conducting a land-attack conversion of Harpoons". The oldies of this forum might remember this public charade between khan's pak pasand lobby and pakis.

It can be only two things:
1) Parts of US administration knew and was complicit
2) khan's claims of inventory management of advanced weaponry supplied to pakis is bogus

If either is true, why should India give credence to any Fizzile-counting excersizes or claims that Fizzlya is neutered from carrying nukes?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 18:19

hnair, solid memory boss.

Ramnath · Post by **Ramnath** » 09 Apr 2019 18:33

habal wrote:where is a 10 sec video posted where a mig-21 is furiously chasing another plane ... err electronic decoy.

well found it & what a convincing electronic decoy

Just talking about this video, it seems to me that the 1st aircraft is mig21 and the second one is something other than a mig21.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Apr 2019 18:46

3 f16 crossed the border
Those two in video above may be of these 3
One ofcourse took a hit

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 18:49

Singha, your pic reveal of Sidewinder has been picked up by "aviation journalist" Angad Singh as proof that A2A missiles don't necessarily get destroyed when they knock down targets.
Good point is that somewhere in ISI one mid-ranking officer was yelling BC, MC as his plans of weekend getaway with mehbooba were foiled and he'd have to spend one more blasted week on twitter.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 09 Apr 2019 19:34

IAF ground controller woman who redirected Su30 & Mirage2k from Pir Panjal to PAF jets and got 6MiG scrambled for intrusion to be awarded distinguished service medal for handling the situation with nerve of steel!
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... s?from=mdr

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 09 Apr 2019 19:41

Karan M, I tweeted your comment to Saikat Datta. It has gotten close to 7,800 impressions. He replied saying that he'd ask Tufail.
https://twitter.com/elmihiro/status/1115488777688870912

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 09 Apr 2019 19:43

Singha wrote:also the hero who came with the 4 missiles 'leak' and most of the twitter army are too young to understand the lahore shootdown of searcher drone by AIM9L of a F-solah in 2001.

I just did a fact-check on that claim for LiveFist

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/04 ... trick.html

Arun.prabhu · Post by **Arun.prabhu** » 09 Apr 2019 20:04

If you have been following the Russian collusion hoax, then this isn’t a surprise. This is SOP. Have a paid stool pigeon parrot a lie. Have another couple of your stool pigeons pick it up. Now, have your folks formally point to the mooks and claim that “see, it’s out there and it’s common knowledge. How can it be false when so many people have drawn the same conclusion?”

Mihir wrote:
Singha wrote:also the hero who came with the 4 missiles 'leak' and most of the twitter army are too young to understand the lahore shootdown of searcher drone by AIM9L of a F-solah in 2001.
I just did a fact-check on that claim for LiveFist

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/04 ... trick.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 20:18

Mihir wrote:Karan M, I tweeted your comment to Saikat Datta. It has gotten close to 7,800 impressions. He replied saying that he'd ask Tufail.
https://twitter.com/elmihiro/status/1115488777688870912

Interesting to see how defensive/hostile he is in follow up responses even as your responses are calm. Kudos. And clearly, he doesnt have an answer to your responses around doppler notch/terrain either, he just requoted the Drive. Also, independent "journalists" have more credence than a domain expert merely because he is an IAF fighter pilot? He quotes Tufail with alacrity but wont consider Sameer Joshis analysis. Biased much?

Looks like after another fact check on SaikatD, have to move onto the Drive as well. Take away fig leaf after fig leaf.

habal · Post by **habal** » 09 Apr 2019 20:25

Singha wrote:3 f16 crossed the border
Those two in video above may be of these 3
One ofcourse took a hit

looked at it carefully a couple more times. The first one has jettisoned its drop tanks and it's wings are clean but second one has still has it's drop tanks attached which is giving the impression of slightly more tapered wings. The second also seems to have a stubby nose

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 20:33

Mihir wrote:
Singha wrote:also the hero who came with the 4 missiles 'leak' and most of the twitter army are too young to understand the lahore shootdown of searcher drone by AIM9L of a F-solah in 2001.
I just did a fact-check on that claim for LiveFist

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/04 ... trick.html

Brilliant job, calls for a secret party in the bar at RAW HQ.

Subin · Post by **Subin** » 09 Apr 2019 20:44

In the following article by Kaiser Tufail on his blog, he mentions the names of 2 pilots of No. 9 Squadron, PAF Mushaf Sargodha who gave him and 3 other PAF veterans rides on 2 twin-seater F16 models:

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/201 ... 6.html?m=1

The pilots’ names are:
Wing Commander Yasir Shafiq, CO of No. 9 Squadron,
and Squadron Leader Ahmed Sami

Assuming that the same pilots would fly the twin seater F16 models without being rotated, could either one of these 2 be the pilot in the twin seater F16 that was shot down by Abhinandan?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Apr 2019 21:02

I doubt that. anyway who the pilot was is not our issue. among 84 planes, pak will have atleast twice the number of pilots since its the best asset and sortie rate demands will be high.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 09 Apr 2019 21:46

Sorry if already posted - but from Shiv's Tweet:

As far as I am concerned this nails it. This is Wing Co Shahbaz. I am looking at another video where the two pilots seem to be together. Will post...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 21:57

Its just a civilian going AOA IMHO.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Apr 2019 22:33

It is. Karan is right.

habal · Post by **habal** » 09 Apr 2019 23:24

they fell apart by 5-6 kms, BUT the same groups of vigilante locals and NLI troops were trolling around the whole area in cars and motorbikes searching for pilots. It seemed to me on pak side there are no isolated villages on the border but some settlements where all these villagers were resettled and gathered together for their own safety or because of some designs of pak army. It would be from such settlements small gangs of such pro-military bands would have operated from and searched nearby areas.

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 Apr 2019 23:54

Karan M wrote: Brilliant job, calls for a secret party in the bar at RAW HQ.

Abe chalo, every time we arrange one you give us a cold 'stick' . Bredator and all big man you have become.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 10 Apr 2019 00:17

Somewhat strange that the MoD doesn't seem to have spent any money this time around, ISPR would have spent millions to peddle their narrative. Or is it that the MoD is no longer keen on offering junkets to defence journos.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2019 00:34

negi wrote:
Karan M wrote: Brilliant job, calls for a secret party in the bar at RAW HQ.
Abe chalo, every time we arrange one you give us a cold 'stick' . Bredator and all big man you have become.

I am still phata chappal backbenchers onlee

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Apr 2019 01:08

The video of the two supposed hits on aircraft- i had noted a roughly one minute gap between hit one and two ... iaf statement seems to confirm timing... so thats the most authentic video we have

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 10 Apr 2019 01:09

People of PoK should declare Jihad on TFTAs for denying them credit for lynching a PAF pilot. This is outrageous!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2019 01:48

Outrageous! Violation of their fundamental riots!