Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Apr 2019 01:54

I once asked a panwalla the difference in RCS between LCA and Mig21. He laughed, spit his paan to one side and focused on the order.

Khan sahab, thank you for sharing your experience in the marine environment.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Apr 2019 03:50

I spoke to some of the folks involved in the Hack tests way back. Even then, the LCA's RCS was remarked as being quite low. Furthermore, with the kind of jammers we are developing, from the MiG-29, Jaguar, Su-30 MKI - all aircraft which are, to put it mildly designed for high RCS aircraft, we clearly will have the capability to design one for the LCA as well, apart from the options we have off the shelf/international market and even in-house.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 08 Apr 2019 03:53

If anyone has time please google, it was stated that Lca RCs was one third of m2k

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 08 Apr 2019 05:56

Today I watched Dr Anantha Krishnan,s interview with Dr Kota. he undoubtedly is one of mother India,s great sons. it made me very sad that one year after this interview there are a measly 2ooo odd people who watched it. While a third rate bollywood song gets 500 million hits while the man who helped India take a giant step towards becoming a aerospace power gets little recognition.if someone missed this great interview here is the link.

https://youtu.be/Q2QMAObFxDo

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Apr 2019 09:25

WAG on RCS: Abhi on a Tejas would have shot all the F-16s before they could scramble him for a BVR shot (by at least 2.5 to 5 times faster than they could detect Tejas). F-16 is around 1.2 (block c++) to 5 (old blocks) m^2 RCS. F22/35 are the ONLY fighter jets Tejas might find difficult to engage now.

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Apr 2019 11:48

^ Wing Co. Abhi used a R-73 it was being queued via his HMS , RCS is no longer in picture during this phase however yes prior getting that close the guy who has a lower RCS will have some advantage depending on the difference in RCS of the two AC and obviously Radars aiding them (onboard or otherwise) , I think what Wing Co. managed to pull off is an immense feat because F-16 has a more powerful radar than the Bison so some of the advantage in being smaller is negated .

Arun.prabhu · Post by **Arun.prabhu** » 08 Apr 2019 12:56

A lower RCS would have helped him escape detection longer, made acquiring target lock on him harder...

negi wrote:^ Wing Co. Abhi used a R-73 it was being queued via his HMS , RCS is no longer in picture during this phase however yes prior getting that close the guy who has a lower RCS will have some advantage depending on the difference in RCS of the two AC and obviously Radars aiding them (onboard or otherwise) , I think what Wing Co. managed to pull off is an immense feat because F-16 has a more powerful radar than the Bison so some of the advantage in being smaller is negated .

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Apr 2019 15:09

WingCo Abhinandan's formation used the mountains to avoid radar detection at long range. Once he had got close enough to fire the R-73, there is no way to avoid radar detection (from the other F-16's in the formation which might be behind him). Even an F-22 can probably be tracked on radar at that range.

sarathy · Post by **sarathy** » 08 Apr 2019 15:45

Suresh S wrote:Today I watched Dr Anantha Krishnan,s interview with Dr Kota. he undoubtedly is one of mother India,s great sons. it made me very sad that one year after this interview there are a measly 2ooo odd people who watched it. While a third rate bollywood song gets 500 million hits while the man who helped India take a giant step towards becoming a aerospace power gets little recognition.if someone missed this great interview here is the link.

https://youtu.be/Q2QMAObFxDo

Thank you for posting this!

RonyKJ · Post by **RonyKJ** » 08 Apr 2019 19:37

Suresh S wrote:Today I watched Dr Anantha Krishnan,s interview with Dr Kota. he undoubtedly is one of mother India,s great sons. it made me very sad that one year after this interview there are a measly 2ooo odd people who watched it. While a third rate bollywood song gets 500 million hits while the man who helped India take a giant step towards becoming a aerospace power gets little recognition.if someone missed this great interview here is the link.

https://youtu.be/Q2QMAObFxDo

Well, you can add one more person who watched the interview and was very touched. One thing I want to comment on is how lucky many Indian institutions like ISRO, ADA, IISc and others have been to be influenced by some of our greatest people like Satish Dhawan, Abdul Kalam and others. I feel that this influence at an early stage was crucial to them becoming what they are today. I would also like to highlight the vision of another of India's great people, Tatan Tata. The IISc started as the Tata Institute and the fact that Ratan Tata was willing to adopt the LCA program if the government canceled it was probably the crucial thing that saved the LCA program.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Apr 2019 00:29

karanM, Maybe they need to coat those moving surfaces with Molybdenum Sulfide or PTFE coating to reduce friction and wear.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 09 Apr 2019 22:40

RonyKJ wrote:Ratan Tata was willing to adopt the LCA program if the government canceled it was probably the crucial thing that saved the LCA program.

Ha ha ha.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Apr 2019 02:41

Found this image on ADA's website from Aero India 2019. The canopy severance system has been modified it appears, with the new explosive cord embedded not just on the top of the canopy but also all along the sides.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Apr 2019 02:57

AFAIK, it always was.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 12 Apr 2019 15:21

The tejas.gov.in links (on first page of this thread) say "Account suspended". What a pity!!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 13 Apr 2019 04:58

Another good video from LIMA 2019

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 15 Apr 2019 15:34

I did check the first page before I ask this and I have the possible answer but would like BRFites to confirm.
Our next build aircraft build activities are building SP-21 to SP-36 (16 Mk1 fighters) and then we will produce 8 X Mk1 trainers before moving onto Mk1A
Correcto ?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 15 Apr 2019 18:11

Haven't seen any single source confirming that LCA has bigger RCS than Mig-21. It's not possible technically anyway.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Apr 2019 18:28

Saurav Jha
@SJha1618
Apr 12

Russia is India's ally. America is India's ally. France is India's ally. Israel is India's ally. But is India its own ally?

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 15 Apr 2019 23:12

Stumbled across this on teetar.
https://twitter.com/dafengcao/status/11 ... 2880403456

How time flies! There was a piece on the corner of Aerospace Knowledge magazine issued in April 1990 introducing the Indian LCA project with illustrations, which said the pre research had completed in 1988, lots of new techs would be used in the design.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Apr 2019 23:43

Wow! Thank you! Rarely, do I come across something so new about the Tejas.

M_Joshi · Post by **M_Joshi** » 16 Apr 2019 01:47

gaurav.p wrote:Stumbled across this on teetar.
https://twitter.com/dafengcao/status/11 ... 2880403456
How time flies! There was a piece on the corner of Aerospace Knowledge magazine issued in April 1990 introducing the Indian LCA project with illustrations, which said the pre research had completed in 1988, lots of new techs would be used in the design.

The text translation in the article:

▲India is developing the light fighter LCA. The project leader Kodak, Harina Lajnabo held the Indian Aeronautical Society in December 1989. The National Congress of the Aeronautical Society of India revealed that the aircraft was developed in response to the Indian Air Force's demand for light fighters in the 1990s. The picture on the left is a side view of the machine's three-sided and two-seat trainer. The picture below is a three-dimensional shape. The pre-research phase was completed in 1988. The aircraft has seven pylons that can carry up to 4 tons of weapons, and a large number of new technologies will be used in the design. Carbon fiber will account for 30% of the total structural weight, aluminum-lithium, titanium alloy, Kevlar and other materials.

kit · Post by **kit** » 16 Apr 2019 05:22

Singha wrote:Saurav Jha
@SJha1618
Apr 12

Russia is India's ally. America is India's ally. France is India's ally. Israel is India's ally. But is India its own ally?

A story about a Indian "deep state" allied to the military,intelligence and business networks controlling almost the entire financial sector might help

Ot anyway..but the bengali didi is going to get it after the elections..

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 16 Apr 2019 09:07

Dynamatic® Technologies Limited
@DynamaticTech
@DynamaticTech
commemorates the launch of TEJAS MAIN FUSELAGE ASSEMBLY for
@HALHQBLR
by
@drajaykumar_ias
, in presence of Mr. R Madhavan, CMD, HAL. This is a milestone in our Nation’s Aerospace journey and #MakeInIndia
@DefProdnIndia

@IAF_MCC

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 16 Apr 2019 11:44

Really happy to see this news on Dynamitic. But the speed of implementation is slower than I expected. Anyhow god speed to them.

The jig says "LCA-4001 Front Fuselage Jig". Interesting number. The SPs start with 5001. What can 4001 possibly mean..?

gurav_p and M_joshi, thank you for sharing this nugget of info and translation. Interestingly it says 4T payload. I wonder why ADA had been publicizing 3.5T all these years.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 16 Apr 2019 12:22

JayS wrote:Really happy to see this news on Dynamitic. But the speed of implementation is slower than I expected. Anyhow god speed to them.

The jig says "LCA-4001 Front Fuselage Jig". Interesting number. The SPs start with 5001. What can 4001 possibly mean..?

gurav_p and M_joshi, thank you for sharing this nugget of info and translation. Interestingly it says 4T payload. I wonder why ADA had been publicizing 3.5T all these years.

It is Painted on the Jig so it could be the Dynamitic's serial number of the jig

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 17 Apr 2019 20:10

Tejas clears Malaysian RF! stage.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 915574.cms

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 17 Apr 2019 21:33

Supratik wrote:Tejas clears Malaysian RF! stage.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 915574.cms

I am curious whom the Malaysian Air Force fighters are intended to fight. Singapore? Probably not. China? Most likely yes. So how do the JF-17s make sense to deter China?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 17 Apr 2019 22:28

jamwal wrote:Haven't seen any single source confirming that LCA has bigger RCS than Mig-21. It's not possible technically anyway.

At least side on, LCA is bound to be far stealthier than any other plane in IAF inventory. The tail fin is a co-cured, co-bonded composite, totally transparent to radar.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 18 Apr 2019 00:39

JayS wrote:Interestingly it says 4T payload. I wonder why ADA had been publicizing 3.5T all these years.

Because empty weight increased by 500Kg (from 6T to 6.5T) reducing payload for same MTOW. Before 2008 I remember ADA posters mentioning 4T.

viveksonkhla · Post by **viveksonkhla** » 18 Apr 2019 12:48

April 2019
Inauguration of Tejas Main Fuselage Assembly

Dynamatic Technologies Limited launched ,‘TEJAS MAIN FUSELAGE ASSEMBLY’ for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). This program was inaugurated by Dr. Ajay Kumar, Secretary (Defence Production), Government of India, in presence of Mr. R Madhavan, Chairman & Managing Director, HAL. This is a milestone in our Nation’s Aerospace journey and Make-in-India initiative, a unique Public-Private-Partnership successfully implemented in association with HAL.

http://www.dynamatics.com/Inauguration% ... mbly.shtml

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 18 Apr 2019 13:30

sudeepj wrote: ... co-cured, co-bonded composite, totally transparent to radar.

Can you please explain this statement further? Or give some links that we can read up on.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 18 Apr 2019 14:09

What he means is that there are not rivets or other metallic fasteners used to join the internal structures & skin together. They are joined using adhesive bonding or for some components, they are cured together in an autoclave & hence come out as one. No to very little metallic parts means very little radio waves reflections as composites are supposed to be radio transparent (I gotta read up on this further).

But I do think there will be some metallic parts inside the VT assembly. Since the VT is used to house a movable rudder, there will be components like hinge line rod, rod bearings housing, actuators & other stuffs which will contribute to some reflections.

raghuk · Post by **raghuk** » 18 Apr 2019 14:38

Zynda wrote:What he means is that there are not rivets or other metallic fasteners used to join the internal structures & skin together. They are joined using adhesive bonding or for some components, they are cured together in an autoclave & hence come out as one. No to very little metallic parts means very little radio waves reflections as composites are supposed to be radio transparent (I gotta read up on this further).

But I do think there will be some metallic parts inside the VT assembly. Since the VT is used to house a movable rudder, there will be components like hinge line rod, rod bearings housing, actuators & other stuffs which will contribute to some reflections.

Except for the Radome, every other part of the surface of the aircraft is "metalized. This is done for static discharge and lighting protection. Infact even on so called stealth aircrafts, the skin absolutely has to be radio reflective or absorbent but never transparent as any transparency would give away the reflection from metallic parts inside the aircraft which would render all the shaping useless.
I was talking to one of the experts from DLJ and she was very categorical when she said radio transparency is a bigger headache and that she preferred an all metallic aircraft for better RCS.
Cheers!

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 18 Apr 2019 15:17

Dynamatic® Technologies Limited
‏

@DynamaticTech
Apr 17
More
In addition to our Tier-1 Global Programs for Airbus, Boeing and Bell Helicopter, we also partner HAL in building potent fighter jets for @IAF_MCC
Whether it's major sections of the fuselage, or entire control surfaces, we've got it covered

Interesting work being done by these guys! I wonder if some of the composite work being done for LCA-Tejas can be ported to Su-30MKI to reduce it's radar signature.

srin · Post by **srin** » 18 Apr 2019 15:22

raghuk wrote:
Zynda wrote:What he means is that there are not rivets or other metallic fasteners used to join the internal structures & skin together. They are joined using adhesive bonding or for some components, they are cured together in an autoclave & hence come out as one. No to very little metallic parts means very little radio waves reflections as composites are supposed to be radio transparent (I gotta read up on this further).

But I do think there will be some metallic parts inside the VT assembly. Since the VT is used to house a movable rudder, there will be components like hinge line rod, rod bearings housing, actuators & other stuffs which will contribute to some reflections.
Except for the Radome, every other part of the surface of the aircraft is "metalized. This is done for static discharge and lighting protection. Infact even on so called stealth aircrafts, the skin absolutely has to be radio reflective or absorbent but never transparent as any transparency would give away the reflection from metallic parts inside the aircraft which would render all the shaping useless.
I was talking to one of the experts from DLJ and she was very categorical when she said radio transparency is a bigger headache and that she preferred an all metallic aircraft for better RCS.
Cheers!

One more thing occurred to me: if the internals are not shielded, then they are vulnerable to RF interference and hence, electronic attack.

chola · Post by **chola** » 18 Apr 2019 15:24

yensoy wrote:
Supratik wrote:Tejas clears Malaysian RF! stage.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 915574.cms
I am curious whom the Malaysian Air Force fighters are intended to fight. Singapore? Probably not. China? Most likely yes. So how do the JF-17s make sense to deter China?

Actually, it is Singapore. Singapore was once part of Malaysia. In fact, Singapore is a bit like Israel as an infidel speck in a sea of muslims. Both are huge trade partners with Cheen and are unlikely to fight it. Their main rivalry is historically with each other.

nam · Post by **nam** » 18 Apr 2019 15:25

raghuk wrote:I was talking to one of the experts from DLJ and she was very categorical when she said radio transparency is a bigger headache and that she preferred an all metallic aircraft for better RCS.
Cheers!

It would make sense. A reason why we see peculiar solutions for cockpit, landing gears bay and weapon bays in 5G jets.

The Japanese have invested time and effort to design internal weapon doors with the fastest closing time! This also means we need specific solution for throwing out the weapons from the weapon bay before the door closes! And you cannot have hot launch of missile inside the bay!

Peculiar engineering problems in 5G jets.

nam · Post by **nam** » 18 Apr 2019 15:27

chola wrote:
yensoy wrote:
I am curious whom the Malaysian Air Force fighters are intended to fight. Singapore? Probably not. China? Most likely yes. So how do the JF-17s make sense to deter China?
Actually, it is Singapore. Singapore was once part of Malaysia. In fact, Singapore is a bit like Israel as an infidel speck in a sea of muslims. Both are huge trade partners with Cheen and are unlikely to fight it. Their main rivalry is historically with each other.

One of the prime reason I am not keen on LCA to Malaysia. One you don't want to p**s off our true ally in the region and more important don't want to see LCA been shot down by F15SG/F35 is the balloon goes up!

Either ways it is loss loss.

Having said that both the countries operate US kit.. so

chola · Post by **chola** » 18 Apr 2019 15:31

M_Joshi wrote:
gaurav.p wrote:Stumbled across this on teetar.
https://twitter.com/dafengcao/status/11 ... 2880403456
The text translation in the article:

▲India is developing the light fighter LCA. The project leader Kodak, Harina Lajnabo held the Indian Aeronautical Society in December 1989. The National Congress of the Aeronautical Society of India revealed that the aircraft was developed in response to the Indian Air Force's demand for light fighters in the 1990s. The picture on the left is a side view of the machine's three-sided and two-seat trainer. The picture below is a three-dimensional shape. The pre-research phase was completed in 1988. The aircraft has seven pylons that can carry up to 4 tons of weapons, and a large number of new technologies will be used in the design. Carbon fiber will account for 30% of the total structural weight, aluminum-lithium, titanium alloy, Kevlar and other materials.

Not sure if others remember this. But two decades ago, Cheen actually asked to be part of the LCA project. This plea was real and was in their Global Times or whatever media.

I remember this because I used it as easy fuel in LCA/J-10 flamewars back then. At the time, the only evidence of the J-10 were drawings and photoshops so of course the chinis wanted in. lol