Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 08 Apr 2019 01:55

Many from Westminster University London joined ISIS , captured terrorist in Syria reveals

Uni in London becomes recruiting ground for Islamic radicals https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47772772

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 10 Apr 2019 20:12

Jallianwala Bagh tragedy shameful scar on British Indian history: Theresa May – PTI

LONDON: Theresa May on Wednesday described the Jallianwala Bagh massacre in Amritsar as a "shameful scar" on British Indian history but stopped short of a formal apology sought by a crosssection of Parliament in previous debates.

In a statement, marking the 100th anniversary of the massacre, at the start of her weekly Prime Minister's Questions in the House of Commons, she reiterated the "regret" already expressed by the British Government.

The massacre took place in Jallianwala Bagh in Amritsar on Baisakhi in April 1919 when the British Indian Army troops, under the command of Colonel Reginald Dyer, fired machine guns at a crowd of people holding a pro-independence demonstration.

According to the British government records, 379 people, including men, women and children were killed and around 1200 injured in the firing.

"The tragedy of Jallianwala Bagh of 1919 is a shameful scar on British Indian history. As Her Majesty the Queen (Elizabeth II) said before visiting Jallianwala Bagh in 1997, it is a distressing example of our past history with India," she said in her statement.

"We deeply regret what happened and the suffering caused. I am pleased that today the UK-India relationship is one of collaboration, partnership, prosperity and security. Indian diaspora make an enormous contribution to British society and I am sure the whole House wishes to see the UK's relationship with India continue to flourish," she said.

In response, Opposition Labour Party Leader Jeremy Corbyn demanded that those who lost their lives in the massacre deserve a "full, clear and unequivocal apology for what took place".

May's statement comes a day after British MPs at Westminster Hall of the Parliament complex debated the issue of a formal apology for the April 13, 1919 massacre to mark its centenary this Saturday.

Foreign Office Minister Mark Field had told MPs that he had been "compelled" by the arguments to raise the issue of going further than the "deepest regret" expressed over the killings during the British Raj.

"I feel that we perhaps need to go further... I have now been persuaded - not just by this debate - to take a different approach," the minister said, adding that the government had to also consider the "financial implications" of any apology for events of the past.

"These issues are an important way of trying to draw a line under the past. Therefore, this is work in progress and I cannot make any promises," he said, holding out some hope of a formal apology over the incident.

The debate was tabled by Conservative Party MP Bob Blackman, who opened proceedings with a strong sentiment of "shame" as he called on the British government to apologise.

"General Dyer was vigorously defended by - I say this with shame - the Conservative party, as well as most of the military establishment. He evaded any penalties post inquiry, as his military superiors advised that they could find no fault with his actions, his orders, or his conduct otherwise," Blackman said, in reference to the British general who had ordered the shooting at a Baisakhi gathering in Amritsar 100 years ago.

"As we approach the 100th anniversary of the Jallianwala Bagh massacre in Amritsar on 13 April 1919, it is clear that there needs to be a formal apology from the United Kingdom government that accepts and acknowledges their part in the massacre," said Indian-origin Labour MP Preet Kaur Gill.

"This is the right time for the (British) Prime Minister to publicly apologise," added fellow Labour MP Virendra Sharma.

In wrapping up the outcomes of the debate, Blackman concluded that children in British schools should be taught about the tragedy because people should know what happened in Britain's name and that "saying sorry - apologising for this massacre - is the right thing to do".

The pressure on the Cabinet minister mounted further on Wednesday as he received a letter signed by 80 MPs stressing that he must consider their call for an "apology anew".

"Relations between the UK and India today are friendly and constructive. Yet that does not mean an apology would not be good," notes the letter, initiated by Labour MP Pat McFadden.

During a previous debate in the House of Lords earlier in the year, it was confirmed that UK foreign secretary Jeremy Hunt was "reflecting" on demands for a formal apology to mark the centenary of the Jallianwala Bagh massacre this week.

Following Theresa May's latest statement on the issue in the Commons, it remains to be seen if the UK government will follow up with any further statements in the lead up to the 100th anniversary on Saturday.

Cheers

Skanda · Post by **Skanda** » 10 Apr 2019 23:03

Peregrine wrote:Jallianwala Bagh tragedy shameful scar on British Indian history: Theresa May – PTI
...
but stopped short of a formal apology sought by a crosssection of Parliament in previous debates.
...

What is the reason why they cant apologize? Are they afraid of having to pay repatriations or worried that it will open pandora's box for every other excess committed by the erstwhile empire?

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 11 Apr 2019 01:00

Peregrine wrote:Jallianwala Bagh tragedy shameful scar on British Indian history: Theresa May – PTI
...
but stopped short of a formal apology sought by a crosssection of Parliament in previous debates.
...

Skanda wrote:What is the reason why they cant apologize? Are they afraid of having to pay repatriations or worried that it will open pandora's box for every other excess committed by the erstwhile empire?

Skanda Ji :

IMO in due time they will!

Cheers

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 11 Apr 2019 01:17

This has something to do with the recent case of a veteran paratrooper being tried in court for murder of two Irish men (Bloody Sunday) in '72. The Tories came under severe criticism for allowing CPS to charge a soldier serving in the interests of HM's govt.

It takes a lot of political appetite to tender an apology for excesses of a different regime. The Tories are not capable of it just yet. Maybe in a decade or so, just not now.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Apr 2019 01:50

The usage of the word "tragedy" itself is a subtle attempt at deflecting blame. A car or air crash is a tragedy. Jallianwala Bagh was a massacre, an act of state-sponsored mass murder, a ruthless slaughter of unarmed, innocent civilians.

srin · Post by **srin** » 11 Apr 2019 21:35

Now that Julian Assange has been arrested, it'd be interesting to see how long would it take for him to get extradited to US/Sweden/wherever. Will that come close to how long Mallya's process has taken ? And will US show video evidence regarding the state of its prisons and promise that it isn't political ?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 11 Apr 2019 22:09

Julian Assange was living under asylum conditions granted to him the government of Ecuador at their embassy in London. Vijay Mallya on the other hand, as far as I know, has ILR (indefinite leave to remain) in UK, their form of permanent residency. This makes a difference in how they treat extradition requests because in the former case he's a wanted fugitive in UK itself, while Mallya is not.

As to Jaliianwala Bagh, it follows a generally predictable formula of western establishments. First you plunder, commit crimes, or whatever. Get rich and powerful from it. Then several generations later, you offer a 'large hearted' non-apology. Any sort of fake apology from the UK in this context is BS emanating from a head of government barely clinging on to her job amidst the wreckage of Brexit.

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 12 Apr 2019 00:15

IMO in due time they will once they are properly broken!

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 12 Apr 2019 00:21

The UK court system sounds like a joke here:
UK rejects Vijay Mallya's plea against extradition to India

Mallya’s application seeking permission to appeal was refused by Justice William Davis on Friday," the Press Trust of India reported, citing a UK judiciary spokesperson. Mallya now has time till 12 April to move a second application before the court to admit his appeal, a person familiar with the development told Mint on condition of anonymity.

If the appeal is rejected again, Mallya would have the option to approach a higher court in the UK, the person said.

Mallya had filed the application in the UK high court after home secretary Sajid Javid approved his extradition to India in February.

If you fail in the permission to appeal, it means you can apply a second time, and if you still fail, you can apply to a higher court ?

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 12 Apr 2019 00:29

I think they skipped out on the appeal to tribunal as the first step before moving the court, followed by which he can move the high court (equivalent of the SC). Realistically, it will be at least a year before he will actually step foot in India. Remember we inherited our bureaucracy from the UK, so don't be surprised at delays.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 17 Apr 2019 00:17

UK and India strengthen defence ties with new agreement.

The UK is set to strengthen defence ties with India through a renewed Memorandum of Understanding, Defence Minister Stuart Andrew has announced.

At bilateral defence and security equipment talks in London this week, the two nations agreed to re-double efforts to identify mutual defence and security capability needs and collaborate on solutions.

Air Marshal Richard Knighton signed the Defence Equipment Memorandum on behalf of the UK Ministry of Defence, while Shri Barun Mitra, Additional Secretary Defence Production at the Ministry of Defence, signed on behalf of the Indian Government.

Defence Minister Stuart Andrew said:
As major world economies, Britain and India both have a proud global maritime history, with impressive futures ahead. The signing of this Memorandum of Understanding underpins the collaboration between our two nations, building on our defence ties, and ensuring our nations are able to combat emerging threats for generations to come.

The agreement, which marks a step change in India and United Kingdom’s defence relationship, comes after a visit by India’s chief of naval staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba, to HMS Queen Elizabeth in Portsmouth last month. It also follows HMS Dragon’s visit to Goa in December last year, where the ship took part in the longstanding naval exercise, The Konkan Series.

By collaborating and exploiting procurement opportunities together, both nations will be able to benefit from technological and manufacturing capabilities and support long-term cooperation between their defence and security industries.

In addition to the bilateral talks this week, UK and Indian industry met to discuss how they would forge deeper and broader partnerships to contribute to these efforts.

Minister of State for Trade and Export Promotion Baroness Fairhead said:
I am delighted that the Ministries of Defence of India and the United Kingdom have signed this Memorandum of Understanding. This agreement will help us develop closer, mutually beneficial relationships between our respective defence and security industries.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 17 Apr 2019 18:15

nachiket wrote:The usage of the word "tragedy" itself is a subtle attempt at deflecting blame. A car or air crash is a tragedy. Jallianwala Bagh was a massacre, an act of state-sponsored mass murder, a ruthless slaughter of unarmed, innocent civilians.

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the ... the-empire

Use proxy server to watch this. The descendants of Dyer do not think he did anything wrong.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 17 Apr 2019 19:58

Should watch Sathnam Sangera's rage as he has very diplomatically captured it in his docu.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 18 Apr 2019 00:27

Mallya fails to get UK court to stall Indian banks' bid to recover dues

Vijay Mallya on Wednesday failed to convince a UK High Court to dismiss an order related to money in one of his London bank accounts, dealing a blow to the embattled liquor tycoon's efforts to prevent a consortium of Indian banks getting access to nearly 260,000 pounds.

In one of the many legal cases being faced by the 63-year-old liquor tycoon in the UK, Master David Cook ruled that an interim debt order in favour of SBI and other banks seeking access to funds in the ICICI UK bank account "should remain in force" but that the application to make it final should be adjourned until after the hearing of Mallya's pending bankruptcy petition.

The funds in the account will meanwhile remain frozen as part of the worldwide freezing order in favour of the Indian banks last year.

Mallya's lawyers had argued for the dismissal of the interim order on a number of grounds, including a claim that it was a "deliberate ploy" to prevent Mallya "reasonable" living expenses.
"I reject the proposition that the application for a TPDO (third party debt order) was a deliberate ploy to thwart Dr Mallya's ability to meet his ordinary living expenses and reasonable legal expenses which are permitted under the terms of the WWFO (worldwide freezing order)," Master Cook notes in his judgment.

"The relevant context here is that Dr Mallya is in a post judgment scenario where the Claimants (Indian banks) are attempting to enforce their judgment and discover the true extent of his assets. I note that Dr Mallya has made no voluntary payment to date… while continuing to incur substantial legal costs in opposing the Claimants' efforts to enforce their judgment," he said.

The case revolves around 258,559.79 pounds held in a bank account with the ICICI UK, which is named as a third party in the High Court case. It is among one of many orders pursued by TLT LLP, the law firm acting for the Indian banks, as part of efforts to recoup some of the 1.142 billion pounds owed to them arising from proceedings in the Bangalore Debt Recovery Tribunal (DRT) against Kingfisher Airlines and others.

The DRT case was registered in the UK under the Foreign Judgments (Reciprocal Enforcement) Act 1933 and went in favour of the Indian banks in an appeal in May 2018.

The banks have since also filed a bankruptcy petition against Mallya in the UK courts, which is being challenged by the former Kingfisher Airlines boss and is expected to come up for hearing around December this year.

Meanwhile, in yet another legal intervention, Mallya is seeking a stay of all enforcement proceedings which have been commenced since the presentation of the bankruptcy petition by the Indian banks in September last year, a hearing of which is expected next month.

The outcome of that hearing will determine the future course of the funds being sought by the SBI, Bank of Baroda, Corporation bank, Federal Bank Ltd, IDBI Bank, Indian Overseas Bank, Jammu & Kashmir Bank, Punjab & Sind Bank, Punjab National Bank, State Bank of Mysore, UCO Bank, United Bank of India and JM Financial Asset Reconstruction Co. Pvt Ltd.

Mallya, meanwhile, remains on bail after his extradition was signed off by UK home secretary Sajid Javid in February and is seeking leave to appeal against that order in the High Court as well.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Apr 2019 00:39

Suraj wrote:Julian Assange was living under asylum conditions granted to him the government of Ecuador at their embassy in London. Vijay Mallya on the other hand, as far as I know, has ILR (indefinite leave to remain) in UK, their form of permanent residency. This makes a difference in how they treat extradition requests because in the former case he's a wanted fugitive in UK itself, while Mallya is not.

As to Jaliianwala Bagh, it follows a generally predictable formula of western establishments. First you plunder, commit crimes, or whatever. Get rich and powerful from it. Then several generations later, you offer a 'large hearted' non-apology. Any sort of fake apology from the UK in this context is BS emanating from a head of government barely clinging on to her job amidst the wreckage of Brexit.

they are terrified of the financial implications of a full apology and acceptance of responsibility for their actions in case any one of the descendants of the affected parties files a case and asks to be compensated.

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 18 Apr 2019 01:01

Also it opens the door for a flood of cases for reparations for all colonial crimes in India. That will be real Karma.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 18 Apr 2019 14:18

chetak wrote:
they are terrified of the financial implications of a full apology and acceptance of responsibility for their actions in case any one of the descendants of the affected parties files a case and asks to be compensated.

Chetakji,

Its not the money. The apology will have to start with "Her Majesty............", ie apology will have to be in the name of the Queen, she will be apologising. That is what is unacceptable. After all it was armed force working in her name that did the deed.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Apr 2019 15:56

mmasand wrote:Should watch Sathnam Sangera's rage as he has very diplomatically captured it in his docu.

nicely done, he manages to keep the whole thing very dignified

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 21 Apr 2019 01:10

Unlike Modi's rioting India, UK is a peaceful heaven of community relations. BREXIT preview:

The rioting apparently erupted as homes belonging to Irish republicans, those who believe all of Ireland should be separate from British rule, were raided ahead of the Easter weekend.
"Protecting the public is and will always be our priority," Northern Ireland police said. "The searches were being carried out because we believed that violent dissident republicans were storing firearms and explosives for a number of planned attacks and these may have been used over the Easter weekend in the city."
There were about 100 people in the area, including "young people and members of the media," when the unknown shooter fired into a crowd of people, police said.
Prior to the shooting, the protesters had gathered near Creggan at about 9 p.m. Police said the rioters threw over 50 petrol bombs at police officers and hijacked two vehicles, which were then set on fire.
A car burns after petrol bombs were thrown at police in Creggan, Londonderry, in Northern Ireland, Thursday, April 18, 2019.

saip · Post by **saip** » 21 Apr 2019 07:38

Lisa wrote:
chetak wrote:
they are terrified of the financial implications of a full apology and acceptance of responsibility for their actions in case any one of the descendants of the affected parties files a case and asks to be compensated.
Chetakji,

Its not the money. The apology will have to start with "Her Majesty............", ie apology will have to be in the name of the Queen, she will be apologising. That is what is unacceptable. After all it was armed force working in her name that did the deed.

It will never happen. Saying only that Jallianwala Bagh is scar on Indo - British relaions what is May saying? A total non-apology when in reality the whole colonialism is a blot. The guy who said 'Give me liberty or give me death' also owned 77 slaves. May too considers in her heart of hearts colonialism is her God given right and the rest is lip service. We need MODI for antother TEN years to teach these white cretins.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Apr 2019 13:51

saip wrote:
Lisa wrote:
Chetakji,

Its not the money. The apology will have to start with "Her Majesty............", ie apology will have to be in the name of the Queen, she will be apologising. That is what is unacceptable. After all it was armed force working in her name that did the deed.
It will never happen. Saying only that Jallianwala Bagh is scar on Indo - British relaions what is May saying? A total non-apology when in reality the whole colonialism is a blot. The guy who said 'Give me liberty or give me death' also owned 77 slaves. May too considers in her heart of hearts colonialism is her God given right and the rest is lip service. We need MODI for antother TEN years to teach these white cretins.

colonization is a scar on Indo britshit relations.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 25 Apr 2019 17:17

Interesting visualization of the rise and fall of the colonial empires (UK in particular):
https://vimeo.com/11506746

rgosain · Post by **rgosain** » 28 Apr 2019 04:18

Cartoon on the PRC penetration of the uk networks

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ei-cartoon

This is the future of Indian 5G too.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2019 09:52

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/27/worl ... e=Homepage

looks like UK will have to make a call over the next decade - keep a semblance of conventional force projection on land, sea and air , or continue to spend a lot of budget on the showpiece nuclear deterrent with 4 SSBNs and the SSNs needed to protect them. these are sucking up 15% of the annual budget at present.

army is down to 82,000 soldiers - 4 divisions.
tanks down to low 100s.
harriers long gone.
helicopters and artillery must be at all time lows.

srin · Post by **srin** » 28 Apr 2019 15:29

^^^^ Right on course to become the 51st state of the Khan. Their inefficiency is appalling - for just a bit more, their defence budget will match ours, and our army is 15 times theirs.

Also, they seem to be retaining just enough conventional might to defend Falklands. That's the level of country they can take on.

Third, they'll try to palm off their second carrier (Prince of Wales) to us, hoping to get some money. No way they can afford a second carrier group.

Lastly, deja-vu ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2019 17:34

>> No way they can afford a second carrier group.

my guess is they have enough type45 (6 built), will have a few type26(general purpose FFG) and ssn to defend a carrier group or two when it sallies out of the scapa flow in orkney islands in trUE RN style but no other headroom for independent missions in baltics, arctic sea, med, horn of africa, fonops in scs etc. lot of misssions need just 1 FFG and 1 support ship.

they will look to buy only enough airwing to staff one carrier, keep one in mothballs in port, and rotate the airwing onto the mothball carrier when the active carrier goes into port for a refit.

I dont think their budget will permit airwing for 2 carriers and opex to deploy and use them both. or maybe the other one will hang around on training missions using wooden mockup planes

putin will send a few bears to photograph this and publish

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Apr 2019 18:18

Singha wrote:>> No way they can afford a second carrier group.

my guess is they have enough type45 (6 built), will have a few type26(general purpose FFG) and ssn to defend a carrier group or two when it sallies out of the scapa flow in orkney islands in trUE RN style but no other headroom for independent missions in baltics, arctic sea, med, horn of africa, fonops in scs etc. lot of misssions need just 1 FFG and 1 support ship.

they will look to buy only enough airwing to staff one carrier, keep one in mothballs in port, and rotate the airwing onto the mothball carrier when the active carrier goes into port for a refit.

I dont think their budget will permit airwing for 2 carriers and opex to deploy and use them both. or maybe the other one will hang around on training missions using wooden mockup planes putin will send a few bears to photograph this and publish

That's precisely why they are so hopefully offering to sell us the technology of their latest carrier, drag that out for a decade or so and then ambush us with an AMC that would handsomely support the britshit nation for decades to come, while sharia takes a firm root in the whole of their country, until they cleverly think up another tech "breakthrough" that they can scam us with again.

And why do we need this technology?? to help support the amerikis to fend off the hans and to allow India to perform coolie functions of patrolling areas of ameriki interest, bound tightly by assinine agreements like GSOMIA, LEMOA, COMCASA and BECA and whatever else alphabet soup that the jargon crazy amerikis can conjure up in their dreams of world domination??.

ameriki interest in meddling in India's internal affairs has been obvious since the latter days of the britshit raj and the expectation of a large ameriki role in a post-colonial era, which is why they so "selflessly" supported Indian independence from the britshits.

At the time, the amerikis were the only ones with both the desire as well as the capability to take over the britshit empire and a large part of their strategy was to somehow secure unilateral access to the oil in the gulf. For this purpose, they had envisaged India as a mule in terms of military bases and the support of an "Indian" army just like the britshits had done so successfully in WWI&II.

Their strategy still remains the same.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2019 18:22

^^^ you make a good point. explains why roosevelt was against british colonialism and wanted them to pack up and go home.

he was just working to replace them around the world.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Apr 2019 18:45

Jokes apart, they retain a very good defense and S&T setup, and still have access to Khans largesse, with F-35+ EFT in AF, Navy has some spiffy gear and even Army as small as it may be, will be gold plated. Still a player.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Apr 2019 19:09

Karan M wrote:Jokes apart, they retain a very good defense and S&T setup, and still have access to Khans largesse, with F-35+ EFT in AF, Navy has some spiffy gear and even Army as small as it may be, will be gold plated. Still a player.

No one is joking.

History is what it is and is playing out in front of us. Its all documented and all it needs is finding by those interested.

The P8I suffers from excessive brochuritis and it doesn't work as advertised.

This may not have improved much since.

I understand that the reports are dated but this was the state. There is nothing "spiffy" about such gear.

We have, for the longest time been fobbed off with someone else's hand me downs, starting with the rust bucket ships that the britshits delivered to us after independence at ginormously inflated costs to offset the huge moneys that they owed us.

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnav ... 5.aspx#foo

Naval Air: The P-8 Stumbles

February 5, 2014: In late 2013 the U.S. P-8A Poseidon anti-submarine and maritime patrol aircraft entered service, four years after its first flight in 2009. The bad news is the manufacturer is confronted with complaints that the new electronics developed for the P-8A are not working well alone or with each other. The surface search radar and surveillance turret (a high end vidcam with powerful zoom) were particularly troubled, with many of their automatic and cooperative features not working properly. These problems were noted more than a year before the P-8A entered service. There are now 16 P-8s flying, six of them prototypes. Production continues, for India as well as the U.S. One was delivered to India in May 2013 and the Indians are quite upset over the sensor problems.

Then again, there is much that is right about the P-8A. The bug thing is that it is based on the widely used Boeing 737 airliner. Although the Boeing 737 based P-8A is a two engine jet, compared to the four engine turboprop P-3 it is replacing, it is a more capable plane. The P-8A has 23 percent more floor space than the P-3 and is larger (38 meter/118 foot wingspan, versus 32.25 meter/100 foot) and heavier (83 tons versus 61). Most other characteristics are the same. Both can stay in the air about 10 hours per sortie. Speed is different. Cruise speed for the 737 is 910 kilometers an hour, versus 590 for the P-3. This makes it possible for the P-8A to get to a patrol area faster, which is a major advantage when chasing down subs first spotted by distant sonar arrays or satellites. However, the P-3 can carry more weapons (9 tons versus 5.6). This is less of a factor as the weapons (torpedoes, missiles, mines, sonobouys) are lighter and more effective today and that trend continues. Both carry the same size crew of 10-11 pilots and equipment operators. Both aircraft carry search radar and various other sensors.

The 737 has, like the P-3, been equipped with hard points on the wings for torpedoes or missiles. The B-737 is a more modern design and has been used successfully since the 1960s by commercial aviation. Navy aviators are confident that it will be as reliable as the P-3. Problems with new military electronics are not unusual but it was hoped that the manufacturer would find and fix the worst bugs before the troops got the aircraft.

The P-3 was based on the Electra civilian airliner that first flew in 1954, although only 170 were built, plus 600 P-3s. Some Electras are still in service. The Boeing 737 first flew in 1965, and over 5,000 have been built. The P-8A will be the first 737 designed with a bomb bay and four wing racks for weapons. The P-8 costs about $275 million each.

Since 2010 India has increased its P-8I order from 8 to 24 aircraft. Only 12 are actually on order, but the admirals expect the performance of the P-8I to convince the government to pay for another twelve. That is now in doubt because of the problems with the sensors. India wants the P-8I to work because it needs a more capable recon aircraft, which is what led to that initial order.

The P-8 is remarkably similar in terms of the equipment and techniques to the half century old P-3s it replaces. Arguably the most successful maritime patrol aircraft ever, the P-3 experience, and some of the same gear were merged with the equally admired Boeing 737 air transport to create the P-8. While the functions of the P-8 are similar to the P-3 most of the electronics are new and apparently not tested enough. The U.S. and Indian navies will both receive the new American P-8 maritime reconnaissance aircraft at about the same time. The Indians P-8Is are slightly different than the P-8A the Americans will use.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 673_1.html

Pentagon report: Indian Navy's new submarine hunter is ineffective

The report has found the aircraft ineffective at surveillance and detection & destruction of submarines

Ajai Shukla | New Delhi
February 5, 2014

According to a Bloomberg news report, the US Department of Defense (Pentagon) has found that the US Navy’s version of the aircraft, the P-8A, is ineffective at both surveillance, and in detecting and destroying submarines.

Michael Gilmore, the Pentagon’s chief weapons inspector, has reported that the P-8A “is not effective for the intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance mission and is not effective for wide area anti-submarine search”, according to Bloomberg, which cites Gilmore’s annual report on major weapons.

The Indian Navy, which has bought eight P8-I aircraft for US $2.1 billion, is Boeing’s first international customer for this platform. Its cutting-edge sensors, radios and submarine-killing weaponry are integrated onto a special Boeing 737 aircraft, giving it the endurance to fly 1,100 kilometres to a patrol area, remain “on station” for six hours, and then fly back to base.

Yet the Pentagon’s report, which has not been officially released, points out flaws in the aircraft’s radar performance, sensor integration and data transfer. It says that current version of the P-8A had not overcome “major deficiencies” identified in combat testing in 2012-13.

Contacted for a response, the Indian Navy and the MoD did not reply. The Boeing Company has declined to comment, stating that the Pentagon report had not been officially released. The US embassy in New Delhi did not respond to an emailed request for comments.

For Washington, as for New Delhi, this news is worrying. The first P-8A of 117 that the US Navy plans to buy was deployed to Kadena, in Japan. It is operating along with others in the tense maritime environment of the East Sea/Sea of Japan, tracking Chinese submarines. The three P-8Is already delivered to India (with five more due to come by 2015) are based at Arakonam, near Chennai, to watch over India’s 7,500-kilometre coastline and the ocean stretch from the Strait of Malacca to the Strait of Hormuz.

In November, the US Navy had declared the P-8A ready for combat deployment, while admitted that the US Navy had developed “software upgrades to correct deficiencies.” Vice Admiral Robert Thomas, who commands the US 7th Fleet, backed the P-8A, stating on January 10 that it “represents a significant improvement” over the P-3 Orion, which it replaced in the US fleet.

The P-8I’s sensors include a Raytheon multi-mode radar to detect aircraft, ships and submarines, while another belly-mounted radar looks backwards, like an electronic rear-view-mirror. When a submarine is suspected, the aircraft drops sonobuoys into the water, which radio back suspicious sounds. A “magnetic anomaly detector” on the P-8I’s tail also detects submarines. The P-8I can destroy ships and submarines with Harpoon missiles, Mark 82 depth charges and Mark 54 torpedoes mounted on the aircraft.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Apr 2019 19:26

Singha wrote:^^^ you make a good point. explains why roosevelt was against british colonialism and wanted them to pack up and go home.

he was just working to replace them around the world.

true that.

why did the amerikis need bases in guam, philippines, japan, diego garcia, as well as many places in the gulf?? What were they doing if not empire building and empire defending??

Why do they so desperately seek access to India?? why have we suddenly become so important for the amerikis to confer a nato ally status on us??

Their facilities in diego garcia must be horrendously expensive even for the amerikis to run.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Apr 2019 19:39

Unless you have information on the IN's experience with the P-8I, quoting 5 year old articles, especially Strategy Page is pointless.. they write such poorly researched diatribes that even discussing them is a waste of our time. Shuklas article below does not even mention what the specific issues are. Just a general ramble about issues existing. The range, specificity all matter. Also our equipment fit is not the same as that on the US P-8As.

The point stands though, the UK continues to punch way above its weight economically, diplomatically and even militarily.

The P-8 is definitely spiffy compared to what it replaces, flying which was increasingly a thankless task due to spares challenges and with even bigger limitations than a P-8I constrained by teething problems represents.

Hopefully, Modi comes back and puts us on the path to being a $10Tn economy by 2030, because that's when things will radically change. Our social needs are so huge, and our forces so manpower heavy, that we simply can't afford the level of gold-plating the Europeans take for granted across all their platforms.

Our S&T, MIC may grow though to challenge these chaps even so based on the sheer volume of our domestic orders, because even a 30% state of the art IA will be a quantum larger than most forces worldwide.

As long we keep importing, teething problems in Indian conditions and subsequent vendor dependency are a given.

chetak wrote:
Karan M wrote:Jokes apart, they retain a very good defense and S&T setup, and still have access to Khans largesse, with F-35+ EFT in AF, Navy has some spiffy gear and even Army as small as it may be, will be gold plated. Still a player.
No one is joking.

History is what it is and is playing out in front of us. Its all documented and all it needs is finding by those interested.

The P8I suffers from excessive brochuritis and it doesn't work as advertised.

This may not have improved much since.

I understand that the reports are dated but this was the state. There is nothing "spiffy" about such gear.

We have, for the longest time been fobbed off with someone else's hand me downs, starting with the rust bucket ships that the britshits delivered to us after independence at ginormously inflated costs to offset the huge moneys that they owed us.

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnav ... 5.aspx#foo

Naval Air: The P-8 Stumbles

February 5, 2014: In late 2013 the U.S. P-8A Poseidon anti-submarine and maritime patrol aircraft entered service, four years after its first flight in 2009. The bad news is the manufacturer is confronted with complaints that the new electronics developed for the P-8A are not working well alone or with each other. The surface search radar and surveillance turret (a high end vidcam with powerful zoom) were particularly troubled, with many of their automatic and cooperative features not working properly. These problems were noted more than a year before the P-8A entered service. There are now 16 P-8s flying, six of them prototypes. Production continues, for India as well as the U.S. One was delivered to India in May 2013 and the Indians are quite upset over the sensor problems.

Then again, there is much that is right about the P-8A. The bug thing is that it is based on the widely used Boeing 737 airliner. Although the Boeing 737 based P-8A is a two engine jet, compared to the four engine turboprop P-3 it is replacing, it is a more capable plane. The P-8A has 23 percent more floor space than the P-3 and is larger (38 meter/118 foot wingspan, versus 32.25 meter/100 foot) and heavier (83 tons versus 61). Most other characteristics are the same. Both can stay in the air about 10 hours per sortie. Speed is different. Cruise speed for the 737 is 910 kilometers an hour, versus 590 for the P-3. This makes it possible for the P-8A to get to a patrol area faster, which is a major advantage when chasing down subs first spotted by distant sonar arrays or satellites. However, the P-3 can carry more weapons (9 tons versus 5.6). This is less of a factor as the weapons (torpedoes, missiles, mines, sonobouys) are lighter and more effective today and that trend continues. Both carry the same size crew of 10-11 pilots and equipment operators. Both aircraft carry search radar and various other sensors.

The 737 has, like the P-3, been equipped with hard points on the wings for torpedoes or missiles. The B-737 is a more modern design and has been used successfully since the 1960s by commercial aviation. Navy aviators are confident that it will be as reliable as the P-3. Problems with new military electronics are not unusual but it was hoped that the manufacturer would find and fix the worst bugs before the troops got the aircraft.

The P-3 was based on the Electra civilian airliner that first flew in 1954, although only 170 were built, plus 600 P-3s. Some Electras are still in service. The Boeing 737 first flew in 1965, and over 5,000 have been built. The P-8A will be the first 737 designed with a bomb bay and four wing racks for weapons. The P-8 costs about $275 million each.

Since 2010 India has increased its P-8I order from 8 to 24 aircraft. Only 12 are actually on order, but the admirals expect the performance of the P-8I to convince the government to pay for another twelve. That is now in doubt because of the problems with the sensors. India wants the P-8I to work because it needs a more capable recon aircraft, which is what led to that initial order.

The P-8 is remarkably similar in terms of the equipment and techniques to the half century old P-3s it replaces. Arguably the most successful maritime patrol aircraft ever, the P-3 experience, and some of the same gear were merged with the equally admired Boeing 737 air transport to create the P-8. While the functions of the P-8 are similar to the P-3 most of the electronics are new and apparently not tested enough. The U.S. and Indian navies will both receive the new American P-8 maritime reconnaissance aircraft at about the same time. The Indians P-8Is are slightly different than the P-8A the Americans will use.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 673_1.html

Pentagon report: Indian Navy's new submarine hunter is ineffective

The report has found the aircraft ineffective at surveillance and detection & destruction of submarines

Ajai Shukla | New Delhi
February 5, 2014

According to a Bloomberg news report, the US Department of Defense (Pentagon) has found that the US Navy’s version of the aircraft, the P-8A, is ineffective at both surveillance, and in detecting and destroying submarines.

Michael Gilmore, the Pentagon’s chief weapons inspector, has reported that the P-8A “is not effective for the intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance mission and is not effective for wide area anti-submarine search”, according to Bloomberg, which cites Gilmore’s annual report on major weapons.

The Indian Navy, which has bought eight P8-I aircraft for US $2.1 billion, is Boeing’s first international customer for this platform. Its cutting-edge sensors, radios and submarine-killing weaponry are integrated onto a special Boeing 737 aircraft, giving it the endurance to fly 1,100 kilometres to a patrol area, remain “on station” for six hours, and then fly back to base.

Yet the Pentagon’s report, which has not been officially released, points out flaws in the aircraft’s radar performance, sensor integration and data transfer. It says that current version of the P-8A had not overcome “major deficiencies” identified in combat testing in 2012-13.

Contacted for a response, the Indian Navy and the MoD did not reply. The Boeing Company has declined to comment, stating that the Pentagon report had not been officially released. The US embassy in New Delhi did not respond to an emailed request for comments.

For Washington, as for New Delhi, this news is worrying. The first P-8A of 117 that the US Navy plans to buy was deployed to Kadena, in Japan. It is operating along with others in the tense maritime environment of the East Sea/Sea of Japan, tracking Chinese submarines. The three P-8Is already delivered to India (with five more due to come by 2015) are based at Arakonam, near Chennai, to watch over India’s 7,500-kilometre coastline and the ocean stretch from the Strait of Malacca to the Strait of Hormuz.

In November, the US Navy had declared the P-8A ready for combat deployment, while admitted that the US Navy had developed “software upgrades to correct deficiencies.” Vice Admiral Robert Thomas, who commands the US 7th Fleet, backed the P-8A, stating on January 10 that it “represents a significant improvement” over the P-3 Orion, which it replaced in the US fleet.

The P-8I’s sensors include a Raytheon multi-mode radar to detect aircraft, ships and submarines, while another belly-mounted radar looks backwards, like an electronic rear-view-mirror. When a submarine is suspected, the aircraft drops sonobuoys into the water, which radio back suspicious sounds. A “magnetic anomaly detector” on the P-8I’s tail also detects submarines. The P-8I can destroy ships and submarines with Harpoon missiles, Mark 82 depth charges and Mark 54 torpedoes mounted on the aircraft.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Apr 2019 19:50

As things stand, the RAF will continue to field:

146 x Eurofighters
138 x F-35Bs (shared with RN)
AWACS: 5x Wedgetails ordered, and 4x E-3 Sentry's still in service
3x Rivet Joint ELINT aircraft
8x Shadow ISTAR turboprops
110x Hawks
20x Airbus Atlas
60x Chinooks
8x C-17s
10x MQ-9 Reaper
17x C-130

Now consider their size, and the above is a viciously strong capability. Just keeping all their past and our relationship with them aside.
And its underpinned by a very strong Brit educational system, some real support in the industrial space with dime a dozen S&T names, startup and heavy weights like BAe and RR to add heft. This is why they will remain a player until and unless they severely mismanage things.

Schadenfreude on Brexit apart, the British continue to exert a lot of influence which the rest of Europe simply struggles to match (and perhaps doesn't even care about, leaving it to the Brits and NATO/US to do the prancing, while they focus on money and honey). Scratch any Euro or US firms outer layer, and the number of Brits entrenched in decision making, is mind-boggling.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Apr 2019 20:09

Also, we may joke about how poorly the Brits are faring, but make no mistake their establishment, public prancing apart, remains very focused on being imperialistic. They know their status is cemented by force, hence keep surging troops wherever the US goes and picking fights with random countries.

And in the process, they burn through tons of cash and buy new gear like crazy. They even purchased Javelins en masse to support their troops against Taliban. Routinely gold-plate gear to support local industry while loudly playing up the story of how loyal they are to the US and buy US made stuff.

I wish our babus had an iota of the sheer bloody mindedness the British babus from whom they are descended, display. Ours drunk the kool-aid on world peace and Nehruvian socialism, while British babus remained and are absolute ba$t... when it comes to ensuring the British armed forces are ever ready to wage war to push British interests forward. Our MOF/MOD guys are more interested in serving their political masters and their pension, with no historical understanding of what Bharat is, and what its interests should be, in terms of a strong offensive defence.

Avtar Singh · Post by **Avtar Singh** » 29 Apr 2019 02:05

I know the british pretty well and I have been around a bit; having sampled most countries..
I can tell you in terms of capabilities the british stand head and shoulders above the rest;
mainly because they are open minded and flexible in all situations.
As their history shows they have never fallen for any political or religious dogma.

The only people that can beat them are Indians, but has to be in a Hindu wrapper;
not all the fake nonsense going on until now.

I think Indian people are the only ones that do not get this yet, but I am sure a lot of british see it/know it.

As my, long dead, un-educated/village dwelling father would say (if my english phonetics are correct)…
yeh mulk gand nal purya
But I think the clean up has started and as long as it continues, India will beat britain and the rest.

The british will probably be the first of the non-melanated people to turn up AGAIN in India in numbers.
Curiously as others (english people) have pointed out to me; the english have more in common with Indians than any other people!

All this end of Britain nonsense due brexit is just that… nonsense.
Last thing any european country wants to see is a britain not anchored to europe:
perfidious albion?

The only thing that could be their undoing is DEBT; but sh#ty of london is very resourceful/powerful no doubt they will stick it to/make someone else pay.

Just as an aside, I have known possibilities for India since late 1970s.
It was a chance conversation with an african in 1980s that brought me to this forum in early 1990s

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 29 Apr 2019 21:28

There is no reason for India not to host British immigrants if the latter so chose. Of course qualifications would be important.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 30 Apr 2019 00:03

The britshits ostensibly came to trade but stayed on to conquer, plunder, obliterate and convert and left you economically bleeding out.

They left behind some landmines in the form of "educated" english Indians to suborn, subvert, undermine and pervert.

It is those corrupted perverts who have mutated into house niggers and servants for the masters who never actually left and spawned even more house niggers and servants.

the british stand head and shoulders above the rest

of course, they do because they ruled the world using native coolies and a handful of white britshits to subdue millions around the world. Pretty neat, if you think about it.

There is no reason for India not to host British immigrants if the latter so chose.

Why not?? after all they are being buggered in their tiny little island by muslims who will impose sharia within the next couple of decades, if not earlier.

where else will their KJV book be welcome??

So, its back to India again, no??

to be rousingly welcomed by people who so admire them??

They haven't been called perfidious albion for centuries without some reason, by whitey europeans and continentals who know them best for many many centuries now?? And miles better than any Indian can or will ever know them.

Hasn't it ever struck people here that the britshits have never liked you for about 3-4 centuries now, in fact from the very day they met you and how they still academically, culturally and strategically wish to harm you, belittle and destroy you??

The only saving grace was that the amerikis comprehensively outsmarted them in this part of the world after WWII and so we escaped the full force of their poisoned and evil clutches.

And though heavily impaled with a thick wire barbed ocean boat sea fishing hook dangled enticingly by the britshits post independence, we somehow managed to break free but because of the above mentioned "house niggers and servants" we stayed close to the boat.

Now that we have somewhat managed to chart our own course under a nationalist PM who seems to know what he is doing, why are we clamoring to invite the fox into the henhouse??

Trade with the creeps, hi tech, lo tech, no tech, no matter how "great"

the british stand head and shoulders above the rest

they may be and treat them like the uninvited colonizers that they are and be very careful how you go before you

There is no reason for India not to host British immigrants if the latter so chose.

.

These are the same b@$(@&$ who hit Modi below the belt, just a few short years ago.

You have a creep like dalrymple who lives in India and look at the venom he spews on India and Indians in his "lit fests"

BTW, brexit is karma for them and schadenfreude for us, the europeans (france and Germany and not the rest of the losers) as well as the amerikis.

the first eu victim of brexit has already fallen to the han dragon. eyetaly knows it will get no more free lunches from the EU, and so the parasite has jumped to a new host.

the blessedly short memory of the foolish Hindu has always been our undoing, that and the jaichands without whom the countless invasions would have been unsuccessful.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 30 Apr 2019 00:40

Ignoring the angry tirade in general , I'm stlil curious about Dalrymple - in what capacity does he live in India long term ? His wiki indicates he's been resident in India for a good part of the year , for decades now. What sort of visa category is that ?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 30 Apr 2019 00:43

Suraj wrote:Ignoring the angry tirade in general , I'm stlil curious about Dalrymple - in what capacity does he live in India long term ? His wiki indicates he's been resident in India for a good part of the year , for decades now. What sort of visa category is that ?

business/work permit. he is allegedly a writer. part of the lootyen's mafia.

just like mark tully who is far more decent.

many bollywood actresses are here on work permits because they are not Indian nationals.