Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 30 Apr 2019 15:24

srin wrote:Tarmak interview with Nirbhay team at ADE.

Good info:
- Manik engine integration in advanced stages. Test in next 1 year
- Next test is probably with seeker for anti-ship role. Two seekers option - one from DRDL and one from RCI

Jeez he outdoes himself every interview that he does.
What a man?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Apr 2019 15:25

Brahmos is costly and in too few nos. to be used in Balakot type strikes. What we need is expendable Nirbhay's. Brahmos is tip of spear

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Apr 2019 15:28

but may not be a bad idea to lob a few now and then for the khauff effect. useful for time sensitive humint driven strikes on meetings of key people.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 30 Apr 2019 19:21

Yup, US has launched some 2000 thawks till date, average of around 70 every year.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Apr 2019 20:28

All that will happen only if services place an order for 1000 Nirbhays in different batches. Not 50 LSP + 100 SP1+ 100 SP2 and then go looking for Harpoon XR or whatever.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 30 Apr 2019 22:55

Why is Brahmos so expensive.. Fewer/No moving parts.. Not many exotic materials.. In theory, it should be cheaper than Nirbhaya.. The fuel is probably some kind of kerosene.. Dont have to deal with something like red fuming nitric acid..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Apr 2019 23:14

Expensive imported alloys to resist stress/heat for high speed missile, many moving parts in high pressure pumps and hydraulics for fuel system, imported seeker.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 30 Apr 2019 23:21

Karan M wrote:Expensive imported alloys to resist stress/heat for high speed missile, many moving parts in high pressure pumps and hydraulics for fuel system, imported seeker.

Russians really take us to the cleaners..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Apr 2019 23:25

^^^ Russian jiziya on Brahmos.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Apr 2019 23:41

rakall wrote:
Indranil wrote:I think he was being sarcastic.
No.. No.. I was actuallly puzzled by the scoop type intake..
I explain below..

Indranil wrote:Sinha sir, that air intake will not expose any part of the turbine face. And I do not understand radar signatures much, but I would hazard a guess. The increase in RCS because of the intake vis a vis a complete cylinder with an magical nose is not much. A cruise missile flying at tree top level would be difficult to detect no matter what.

On the other hand, a proper intake will allow a much steadier flow unlike a submerged air intake which places limitations in envelop and efficiency. No law of aerodynamics has changed regarding that since the 70s.
When the scientist mentioned submerged intake he specifically said they needed a submerged intake because of the canister/TEL launch.. Which is puzzling because Tomahawk (with its scoop inlet) launches from a canister as well... when you place the scoop towards the corner of the rectangular canister/TEL (45deg rotation from Horizontal/vertical), it should be possible..

He further mentioned that they had a lot of issues with the inlet-engine interaction (due to submerged inlet) in the first 3 tests.. but now they have sorted all those issues.. Having done that, going to a scoop type inlet seems like a step backwards.. That's what puzzled me.. Especially when integrated on an aircraft, that external intake (which, as of now, doesnt look as streamlined as the Tomahawk scoop) can cause a lot of additional drag..

Anyway good news is we are getting some advanced variants.. with desi seeker & desi engine.. so far, so good..

Rakall ji,

I am afraid you feelings are not correct in this case. The proof is all around you. If inlets are all that draggy why do all airplanes have it. Further more, the planes which place highest priority on cruise performance seem to be hanging the completely outside the fuselage! You have to balance with drag with propulsive efficiency. Inlets increase drag slightly*, but increase propulsive efficiency significantly.

* the intakes are not a hindrance for the air to flow around. The air flows into it! Gross oversimplification of lip design, spillage, shocks etc.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Apr 2019 23:52

Aditya_V wrote:Brahmos is costly and in too few nos. to be used in Balakot type strikes. What we need is expendable Nirbhay's. Brahmos is tip of spear

I don't think Nirbhay will deal with Balakot blockhouse.
I think you have a erroneous understanding of the Balakot strike.
Its not a bunch of tents or tin sheds like the Taliban camps in Afghanistan hit by Tomahawk strikes on regular basis.

On the other hand we read about a bunker in Baluchistan that caught fire.

One Indian analyst said it was due to an Indian strike with three ground launched Brahmos.

So we know the forces know which is the desired weapon for such targets.

We kneed to understand targets and weapons capability rather than just technical specs.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2019 00:03

sudeepj wrote:
Karan M wrote:Expensive imported alloys to resist stress/heat for high speed missile, many moving parts in high pressure pumps and hydraulics for fuel system, imported seeker.
Russians really take us to the cleaners..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2019 00:05

ramana wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Brahmos is costly and in too few nos. to be used in Balakot type strikes. What we need is expendable Nirbhay's. Brahmos is tip of spear

I don't think Nirbhay will deal with Balakot blockhouse.
I think you have a erroneous understanding of the Balakot strike.
Its not a bunch of tents or tin sheds like the Taliban camps in Afghanistan hit by Tomahawk strikes on regular basis.

On the other hand we read about a bunker in Baluchistan that caught fire.

One Indian analyst said it was due to an Indian strike with three ground launched Brahmos.

So we know the forces know which is the desired weapon for such targets.

We kneed to understand targets and weapons capability rather than just technical specs.

So many weapons and so many options now for different target sets.

But mass production of Garuda, Garuthma, SAAW, NGARM, Pralay will be the game changer. An inventory of thousands.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 01 May 2019 02:06

sudeepj wrote:
Karan M wrote:Expensive imported alloys to resist stress/heat for high speed missile, many moving parts in high pressure pumps and hydraulics for fuel system, imported seeker.
Russians really take us to the cleaners..

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 835078.ece

Sudhir Mishra, Distinguished Scientist and Director General (BrahMos), DRDO, and MD & CEO, BrahMos Aerospace, feels the achievement is bigger than being able to make even the most advanced weapon systems in the world .................

.....Godrej said. The booster is another major subsystem similar to fuel management.

“The manufacturing of this fuel management system is much more complicated than the development and manufacturing of any weapon or aero-system in the world,” Mishra told BusinessLine in an interview.

The airframe also acts as a fuel management system, responsible for managing the liquid propellent and controlled flow combustion of fuel to fire the missile towards its target.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 May 2019 02:28

I did not understand that. What is he talking about?

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 01 May 2019 02:29

The test launch of Brahmos (from SU30MKI)has been cancelled/postponed due to super cyclone.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 May 2019 03:26

Anti-airfield weapon by 2020: DRDO
http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/ ... 70752.html

Scientists at DRDO’s Research Imarat Centre in the city are working day and night to develop an Smart Anti Airfield Weapon for the Indian Air Force.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 May 2019 03:56

And that gentleman was saying SAAW was first weapon of choice to strike Balakot.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 01 May 2019 10:39

Karan M, for SAAW, what is its lineage? The smallest one of SPICE family, the 250, does look very similar. It also seem to be achieving OC this year. But seem to have optical seeker

Will be nice to have SAAW integrated into Pinaka rockets, like that GL-SDB proposal

Lure out bakis with fully-A2A loaded M2Ks and swat their fizzleyas, while happily unleashing a barrage of these Pinaka-SAAWs from LOC to Balakot. Imagine if Wg Cdr Abhinandan was protected by Ring of SAAW retribution, until a helicopter came to rescue him

This SAAW need to be prolifically manufactured and prices bought down to Maruti levels

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 May 2019 10:51

I had seen a tender for a SAAWlike ammunition which had a modified nose. It was cylindrical with lens in the front

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2019 10:54

Very very interesting find HNair re: Spice 250. The Indiam Express article posted by Ramana, article definitely implies it has an optical seeker and it has had 17 successful trials.

we have had 8 publicly reported ones.

Also, SPICE250 lineage, chances are it could be inspiration, PRC style (take what works). Or, this thing which always intrigued me.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2008/09 ... -drdo.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2019 10:56

Indranil wrote:I had seen a tender for a SAAWlike ammunition which had a modified nose. It was cylindrical with lens in the front

Pics in Balakot thread. I suspect publicly released pics have been without seeker. The opaque dome at front is just a placeholder (looked to be a RF MMw seeker) but this is more akin to Spice 250 as HNair points out.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2019 11:04

One more thing. Israel has recently advertised a new missile, Rocks. Basically a powered missile with Popeye, Spice seeker package etc. In our context, seems quite similar to Rudra M2/M3 and what we've been discussing.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2019 11:16

This is a pretty comprehensive article on JDAM - gives a good overview of what SAAW would have achieved in seeker-less tests (<7M CEP is same as JDAM seeker-less versions). http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-JDAMPt1.html
I was assuming the seeker + added to SAAW would have functioned similar to the HART program mentioned in the article.
But looks like it is a complete SPICE analogue.

BTW, the SPICE 2000's used in the hit at Balakot were likely assembled in India at KRAS. Litenings are already being assembled in Gurgaon by Defsys.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 01 May 2019 11:27

Re the gl-sdb, we have an ml-pgm program underway too.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2019 11:30

Yes, and it was successfully tested as well! IIRC DRDO even noted the program's been completed in 2018. So again, high level of maturity/TRL likely.
https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 8424574976

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 01 May 2019 17:19

I'm at a loss to understand the need for anti-shipping role for ground-launched 1000kms sub-sonic cruise missile. What role can it fulfill that Brahmos cannot?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2019 17:23

Range. Extreme low flying. Loiter. Re-targetable if SATCOM links are there.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 01 May 2019 17:27

Karan M wrote: Also, SPICE250 lineage, chances are it could be inspiration, PRC style (take what works). Or, this thing which always intrigued me.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2008/09 ... -drdo.html

Yes, I too think this was the second serious collaboration of a full system, after Barak 8, where both sides worked together on a common design.

"PRC style" are a watered down version of the old soviet-style "shadow efforts" (CAT scan the product to be copied -> build models with exact exteriors -> get engineers to build whatever they can -> publish PR -> figure out where to use the product), except the soviets had immense depth in sciences and had serious well-mustachioed military seers with harsh existentialist mindsets

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 01 May 2019 17:29

Bulk of the Chinese and PN threat in our neighbourhood is sub-surface. Also, being sub-sonic and having datalink will make in vulnerable.

Only way I can see it being useful is to overwhelm a task force with a combination of Nirbhay and Brahmos arriving at thee same time. That's solving a second-order problem while we've several other critical ones that remain unresolved.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2019 17:34

SATCOM datalink. Hard to intercept, NLOS. Imagine having 10 Nirbhays loitering behind an island/avoiding pickup by radars. Come out to say hi to PRC flotilla sailing by.

Longer range also means more complex waypoint based maneuvers.

Also, Brahmos flies high, then goes low. Nirbhay can go lo lo lo and completely avoid pickup if its receiving target data from Ka31 via sats.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 01 May 2019 17:36

Task force will be taken care of by fast jets, subs, brahmos etc. \

We need to think beyond capital ships and subs for this application. The chinese navy is far from home and its bases are not 400% secure anytime soon. It will be heavily dependent on lightly defended support ships that need to be taken out one by one, very methodically. Not to mention weilding a vague threat to their oil traffic. Just to raise the insurance rates a tad and get them to foot that bill. That is the sort of language they understand, to make them come to negotiation table. The pakis understand that now, after their week long NOTAM

A long-ranged ground launched CM battery can be kept at the tip, near say, Kanyakumari, if not Andamans. At 1000 km plus range (or 2000 plus when turbofan kicks in), it can threaten even that stream coming up from the Good Hope to the south and meet near Malacca!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2019 17:37

I am hoping if this is a JV we are doing the seeker inhouse with image recognition and the works with yehudi input. Amazing if we have a few thousand of this ordered.

Ok we have done our std BRF ahead of the curve prediction for the year. Lets get back to hassling Rakesh over mithai.

hnair wrote:
Karan M wrote: Also, SPICE250 lineage, chances are it could be inspiration, PRC style (take what works). Or, this thing which always intrigued me.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2008/09 ... -drdo.html
Yes, I too think this was the second serious collaboration of a full system, after Barak 8, where both sides worked together on a common design.

"PRC style" are a watered down version of the old soviet-style "shadow efforts" (CAT scan the product to be copied -> build models with exact exteriors -> get engineers to build whatever they can -> publish PR -> figure out where to use the product), except the soviets had immense depth in sciences and had serious well-mustachioed military seers with harsh existentialist mindsets

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 01 May 2019 17:40

titash · Post by **titash** » 01 May 2019 19:49

JTull wrote:I'm at a loss to understand the need for anti-shipping role for ground-launched 1000kms sub-sonic cruise missile. What role can it fulfill that Brahmos cannot?

The Nirbhay anti shipping version can be used to target the bulk of the Chinese merchant fleet. Oil tankers, container ships etc. have no armor or anti missile defences but will need a high explosive warhead to burn.

Any shooting war will quickly die down if 5 or 6 of these are sunk in the high seas. Game over for PRC economy. Eleven will send out a peace & tranquility proposal by the first flight to Delhi.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 01 May 2019 20:22

Is there an air-launched version of Nirbhay?

If not, why not?

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 01 May 2019 20:28

The Air and Submarine launch version of Nirbhay is under development per news report coming in after the last test.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 01 May 2019 20:37

A sub-launched nirbhay can hit dijbouti without even entering the Gulf of Aden. That is what a 1000km missile does for you. From andaman sea, you can hit into the sea east of malaysia.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 May 2019 22:14

Karan M wrote:
Indranil wrote:I had seen a tender for a SAAWlike ammunition which had a modified nose. It was cylindrical with lens in the front
Pics in Balakot thread. I suspect publicly released pics have been without seeker. The opaque dome at front is just a placeholder (looked to be a RF MMw seeker) but this is more akin to Spice 250 as HNair points out.

The ones I saw in the tender were different from the ones in the Balakot thread. There's a Spice 2000 equivalent (look-alike) in development too.

John · Post by **John** » 01 May 2019 23:33

Karan M wrote:SATCOM datalink. Hard to intercept, NLOS. Imagine having 10 Nirbhays loitering behind an island/avoiding pickup by radars. Come out to say hi to PRC flotilla sailing by.

Longer range also means more complex waypoint based maneuvers.

Also, Brahmos flies high, then goes low. Nirbhay can go lo lo lo and completely avoid pickup if its receiving target data from Ka31 via sats.

Without real time data from Satellite or AEW a sub sonic Ashm will have very high miss probability against naval targets from ranges >200 km. It is simply too risky to send AEW platform and have it loiter around a PLAN fleet.

Keep in mind Brahmos actually uses its high altitude to acquire targets prior to entering terminal phase this allows it to compensate for targets that have moved or retarget against any new high priority targets that entered vicinity.