Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 26 Mar 2019 01:18

krisna wrote:
Niraj Rai says more stuff coming out from the recent finidngs in Rakhigarhi settelments from 2016 onwards which will cause more turmoil (on invasion proponents )

I never understood why they could find 20 + skeletons but none could provide any DNA data.

siqir · Post by **siqir** » 26 Mar 2019 18:54

some archaeological evidence for out of india

steatite beads at mehrgarh indus 7th millenium BC

http://www.heritageuniversityofkerala.c ... ume4/4.pdf

steatite beads at lahuradewa period 1a 6500 BC to 3000 BC

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... nd_2005-06

steatite beads at peqi'in israel 4500 BC to 3900 BC

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... the_Levant

steatite beads at tell fadous kfarabida lebanon 2800 BC to 2200 BC

https://www.academia.edu/15767268/Steat ... al_Lebanon

steatite beads at çamlibel tarlasi anatolia 3500 BC

https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1475-4754.2012.00672.x

steatite beads at soyuq bulaq azerbaijan kurgan 1 3800 BC

https://www.academia.edu/4647028/2008-_ ... zerbaijan_

steatite beads noted at parkhai 2 sumbar valley turkmenistan sp14 3500 BC page 57

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv ... 2581-1.pdf

these beads may be the tracer dye for the expansion of indian languages culture and trade

note that soyuq bulaq and turkmenistan east of caspian are regarded by some as genesis of steppe kurgan yamnaya cultures

and the anatolian find is near to bogazkoy hittite capital but much before

siqir · Post by **siqir** » 26 Mar 2019 19:33

our earliest finds of arrowheads and swords

copper arrowhead at bhirrana period 1b 6000 BC to 4500 BC
see page numbered 24 plate 31 for image
https://www.scribd.com/document/2606137 ... tric-Dates

bhirrana period 1a layer dated 7500 BC to 6000 BC had crucible fragments with molten copper

copper arrowhead at lahuradewa period 1b 3000 BC to 2000 BC image on page 41

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... nd_2005-06

iron arrowhead dadupur period 1 lucknow 1700 BC image on page 7

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 0&type=pdf

http://archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/iron-ore

copper arrowhead kultepe 1 nakhchivan azerbaijan 4600 BC

https://www.academia.edu/5789550/2014_- ... ennium_BCE
page 594 fig 22.8

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ex ... jan)_3.jpg

copper arrowhead tepe hissar iran 2500 BC

https://www.penn.museum/collections/object/91279

copper swords at arslantepe royal tomb 3300 BC to 3100 BC

https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/ ... b_1_1.html

copper sword at sinauli baghpat 2300 BC to 1950 BC

https://mobile.twitter.com/sanjeevsanya ... 0785771520

the sinauli find really put a dampener on aitwallas coming right after big harvard dna paper last year
the sword looks very cool but we really should find something earlier than arslantepe ideally an entire armory to put this to rest

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 27 Mar 2019 10:27

Very interesting, Siqir! Sanjeev Sanyal makes a very important point: Gangetic Plains had a thriving civilization contemporaneous with Saraswati Sindhu civilization. The Saraswati Sindhu people moved towards Ganga after Saraswati dried up, but they weren't moving into an uninhabited area.

Per Talageri, the Vedic books show an unambiguous movement from East to West. The first Gangetic civilization was established during the time of the early RigVedic books. The Indus areas were discovered by the time of the middle to late books.

So, we should not be surprised that the Gangetic civilization continued to flourish even after the Vedics moved Westwards.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 27 Mar 2019 10:37

Rudradev: thanks for the summary!

I listened to the Anand Ranganathan panel. Very good stuff & I hope more of this happens. The pro-Indic scientists & Indologists need more such forums for their voices to be heard.

Totally looking forward to Dr. Niraj Rai's paper. However, if his paper reveals no Steppe DNA in Rakhigarhi aDNA from 2300 BCE, the AIT-wallahs will claim that the Steppe incursion happened afterwards. What needs to be shown is that the Rakhigarhi aDNA has Indo-Iranian component, which is also found in Steppe_EMBA or MLBA. IMO the whole "Steppe" EMBA/MLBA is cooked up to make it look like its exclusively Steppe and originated there, which is bullshit. I suspect the Steppe people had Asian/Iranian genes, which came from India and the word "Steppe" is used to hide this fact.

banrjeer · Post by **banrjeer** » 27 Mar 2019 11:07

steppe admix in mycenean vs minoan is small. Modern greeks have more steppe than mycenean(earliest attested greek)
In India also its too little too late(swat valley) and many modern Indians have more steppe than what was found in Swat. However Vagheesh Narsimhan from Reich lab is completely sold on the tight correlation between language and genes.

Anshuman.Kumar · Post by **Anshuman.Kumar** » 27 Mar 2019 15:24

Prem Kumar wrote:Rudradev: thanks for the summary!

I listened to the Anand Ranganathan panel. Very good stuff & I hope more of this happens. The pro-Indic scientists & Indologists need more such forums for their voices to be heard.

Totally looking forward to Dr. Niraj Rai's paper. However, if his paper reveals no Steppe DNA in Rakhigarhi aDNA from 2300 BCE, the AIT-wallahs will claim that the Steppe incursion happened afterwards. What needs to be shown is that the Rakhigarhi aDNA has Indo-Iranian component, which is also found in Steppe_EMBA or MLBA. IMO the whole "Steppe" EMBA/MLBA is cooked up to make it look like its exclusively Steppe and originated there, which is bullshit. I suspect the Steppe people had Asian/Iranian genes, which came from India and the word "Steppe" is used to hide this fact.

Absolutely ..Something which has to be shown conclusively

The Statistical skullduggery is used to hide this very fact.
Let it be told to one and all..which mutations in so called steppe and Iranian populations are common and with Steppe and Indian populations and Iranian and Indian.

This will clear everything.

Anshuman.Kumar · Post by **Anshuman.Kumar** » 27 Mar 2019 15:28

It seems like
North India x+y+z
Iran x+y+w
Steppe x+w+v
See India has 33% steppe.

It's a very crude example.but I do believe that this is what is being done.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 27 Mar 2019 23:38

Absolutely!

The West has a history of such lies. Recent example: renaming Vipassana as "Mindfulness Meditation". Future papers will all refer to the word "Mindfulness" and credit it to Jon-Kabat Zinn, completely hiding the Indian origins.

Same modus operandi with Steppe-DNA

siqir · Post by **siqir** » 28 Mar 2019 11:42

jomon adna supports southern route
meaning all east asians and south east asians including chinese japanese koreans descended from the first indians

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/579177v1

on page 5

their ancestors came through south of the himalayas and migrated from southeast asia towards the north

it seems a bit of a shock to them
many still do not accept african heritage and are keen on special siberian heritage

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Apr 2019 10:56

The following link shows what an Aryan Invasion really looks like:

1) Destruction of male DNA lineages

2) Evidence of violence in skeletons in graves

3) Abrupt material culture change

4) Though not mentioned in the article, the ancient river names in Europe are non-IE, while the language is IE

Contrast this with India: we have continuous male DNA lineages, zilch evidence of violence in graves, continuity in material culture and ALL river names are IE. So where was the Aryan Invasion?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech ... lived.html

banrjeer · Post by **banrjeer** » 01 Apr 2019 20:20

yamnaya people did not ride horses the article is wrong in that respect

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 02 Apr 2019 00:40

Let them cook in their own juices. I am quite content to point out that the Aryan Invasion of Europe is a well-supported theory but stands in complete contrast to the Indian experience.

AIT is true....for Europe. Not India.

siqir · Post by **siqir** » 09 Apr 2019 09:03

recent talk by mrugendra vinod on dating vedas mb and puranic timeline

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKXV-IyLhZk

engaging and entertaining talk all in hindi no subtitles

see 32:50 for his vedic timeline and 45:55 for puranic king list timeline

the important bit is resolving the confusion between the historical event based kali and saka eras with the astronomical event based kali and saka calendars

personally im not entirely convinced by the mb 3762 bce claim without archaeological or geological dates to back it up like flooding of dwaraka etc but definite food for thought

placing nanda dynasty circa 2100 bce would make sinauli find contemporaneous to them

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 15 Apr 2019 01:20

Keeladi Site

Has anyone started digging into Keeladi? seems to be pretty large site comparable to Sapta-Sindhu civilization in scope.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 15 Apr 2019 01:29

For those who do not understand Tamil - he is describing various weapons - but in particular one called Valari.
What is interesting is that from the central Indian tribals - Gonds, etc. all the way to the Australian aborigines we have a similar weapon.
Does anyone know of what research exists in this space of similarity of weapons from Central Asian tribals to India to Australia?

ashbhee · Post by **ashbhee** » 15 Apr 2019 07:30

Pulikeshi wrote:

For those who do not understand Tamil - he is describing various weapons - but in particular one called Valari.
What is interesting is that from the central Indian tribals - Gonds, etc. all the way to the Australian aborigines we have a similar weapon.
Does anyone know of what research exists in this space of similarity of weapons from Central Asian tribals to India to Australia?

I am not a Tamil speaker, but this Aborigines language has similar sounds to Tamil and Malayalam. Can you find any similar meaning words in them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic4lC4GyyhQ&t=35s

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 15 Apr 2019 12:18

There was migration from the Indian subcontinent to Australia during ancient times.

siqir · Post by **siqir** » 03 May 2019 12:59

new horse ancient dna paper is out

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2019.03.049

and the ait shenanigans continue

the paper tries heavily to imply no horses in the so called south meaning iran and india prior to so called steppe invasions

specifically the iran tepe mehr ali site dated to chalcolithic 6th to 4th mill BC is stated to have just hemiones citing schubert et al 2017

but schubert 2017 paper states mehr ali site had two samples genetically identified as true horse along with the hemiones

two of these were identified as horses(Iran1_CGG_1_017447 and Iran3_Bijar_CGG_1_017449)

https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/405270/1/__ ... f_JASC.pdf

so how did these two samples just vanish in the new paper

as to why this is important this article is from 20 years ago by witzel

https://frontline.thehindu.com/static/h ... 200040.htm

Before horses, the only equids in the Near East w ere the donkey and the half-ass (hemione, onager).

and still holding on to same position of horses came from steppe circa 1800 BC in a conf this past december

https://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volume ... 2/2195.pdf

but niraj rai stated this year of finding horse dna in mature harappa era meaning circa 2600 BC

https://mobile.twitter.com/NirajRai3/st ... 4566364161

and we also have sinauli chariot dated 2300 BC to 1950 BC which puts it earlier than the steppe sintashta chariot of 2050 BC to 1800 BC

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 May 2019 13:14

Supratik wrote:There was migration from the Indian subcontinent to Australia during ancient times.

when sea levels were lower like 150-200m lower, the east asian landmass had bridges or small gaps to indonesia and papua new guinea .... the currently wide gap from new guinea to australia would have been much less, permitting humans in the sea faring canoes with good navigational skills to make landfall on australia. the early aborigines found australia flora and fauna to be lot different as it had split from india aeons ago...and by far its the most dry continent. so aboriginal pop never hit high numbers and they lived along more hospitable areas along the coasts where they could fish and hunt. the goras when they landed chased off the aboriginals from the useful lands, into the arid interior.

new zealand btw had no humans until 800 years ago when the maori people staged out of polynesia and reached there. the polynesian journey started off in taiwan, malaysia and philppines and master navigators they were tuned to the sea, weather and astronomy to navigate vast distances with pinpoint precision to hit islands on trade and exploratory missions.

the deep channel between aus and nz prevented aboriginies from going to new zealand. they did cross the bass strait into tasmania somehow.

two streams of humans moved out of africa. the earlier one seemed to have crossed india into the andamans and indonesian chain and then onto australia. thats why a belt of people look similar. the "veddas" of sri lanka are another ancient people. as are some of the "forest tribes" of central india.

the later migration may have crossed india, moved through myanmar to settle all of ASEAN and china and then onto into the pacific polynesia by boat. these are the todays "east asians"

it likely another stream went to cheen via the silk route up north but its bit tougher journey than via river valleys and coasts of india. nevertheless oghuz turkic people using horses and bactrian camels have spread all over the vast tracts of central asia later on. wheoever preceded them to china moved through long ago.

------
what beats me, is why after crossing the bering sea land bridge, and faced with the bountiful resources of north america, the local indians there never could build a civilization at part with the aztecs, mayas and incas further south..... the NA indians seemed mostly into hunting, herding and very low scale farming. granted weather could be cold but cold weather also produced people in northern europe who did much more.

infact it seems the NA and SA indians never developed the wheel on their own and hence no chariots ! they used sleds.

horses did not cross the land bridge, so until spaniards came by ship no horses either. the wild horses now roaming are ex pets or horses released into wild in spanish era.

ricky_v · Post by **ricky_v** » 03 May 2019 16:19

Singha wrote:------
what beats me, is why after crossing the bering sea land bridge, and faced with the bountiful resources of north america, the local indians there never could build a civilization at part with the aztecs, mayas and incas further south..... the NA indians seemed mostly into hunting, herding and very low scale farming. granted weather could be cold but cold weather also produced people in northern europe who did much more.

infact it seems the NA and SA indians never developed the wheel on their own and hence no chariots ! they used sleds.

horses did not cross the land bridge, so until spaniards came by ship no horses either. the wild horses now roaming are ex pets or horses released into wild in spanish era.

if you look at agricultural development, they were successful introducing many food crops and techniques to the world something far ahead of the poly/micronesians who relied on hunter gatherer techniques. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sis ... riculture)They had architecture,some form of convoluted writing system(quipu) and domestication of at least two animal species(llama,guinea pig?).
Africa is an unknown in all this, as they do have some crop contribution, though it is not known if the efforts were indigenous; hey could not even reach madagascar which was eventually peopled by the far-off malay, and ended up on the island, off the coast of africa as slaves to euro power. Not much architectural legacy either, the mosque of djenne is of 13th ad and no domestication of animals.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 May 2019 17:29

singha, some points to note

1. N American civilisations: there is some evidence that the Mandan people and possibly others did have relatively advanced civilisations in the north. However, it is hypothesized that diseases brought by the Europeans totally devastated the populations in the interior regions almost centuries before the Europeans even ventured inland. similarly signs of advanced civilisations now lost to the amazon jungle. with the disease triggered zombie apocalypse in the heartlands, everything fell apart, and only the hardiest survived in newly configured social units/ tribes. once the population thins out, diseases also lose their incubation critical masses. biowar genocide

2. horses - there were wild horses in n America, but they were hunted to extinction many centuries ago. the current breed as you rightly say are descendants of conquistador mounts gone feral

banrjeer · Post by **banrjeer** » 04 May 2019 12:11

The populations in north america were not as dense as in south america for the onset of urbanization and extensive trade.
But the pacific northwest were getting there in terms of trade networks. If Europeans did not disrupt things then in a few centuries there would have developed nation states and towns.

banrjeer · Post by **banrjeer** » 04 May 2019 12:15

https://www.academia.edu/31147544/Is_an ... lwJzMIhi8s

The author holds conventional views but this is important analysis on limitations and potential corrections to the IE language tree.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 May 2019 12:22

indeed its strange that africa which has bountiful natural resources, fertile land, fresh water could not develop a powerful tools based civilization at par with the old world belt of civilizations running from crete-greece - levant - mesopotamia - persia - india - china .

I am sure there are domesticable varieties of cattle in africa and plenty of goats in the drier parts. camels are available and egypt-libya might have had horses too as the suez links it to traditional range of the horses and donkeys in the middle east.

probably ethiopia and ghana were the two leading nation states

they totally failed to develop sea faring capabilities and it was the phoenicians from the levant who colonised morocco-tunisia-algeria belt and founded Carthage and arab traders who ruled the roost in ports like mombasa. the malays did a reverse dandi march to madagascar and the cape of good hope. SW and NW monsoons were used to time these voyages across the open sea and indian ports like kochi a vital rotterdam of sorts.

there is gotta be some magic in the belt greece-india belt that spawned so many powerful civilizations in a sustained way. perhaps being adjacent but not in the steppe gave them access to fleets of tanks er horses and the rugged pastoral people to staff their cavalry while river valleys generated surplus food and freed up people to think deep thoughts and devise intellectual frameworks. in this hybrid mode these civilizations could scale the heights and tower over lesser civilizations

banrjeer · Post by **banrjeer** » 04 May 2019 12:52

Africa had the early tech and base civilization to colonize the rest of the world and overwhelm other archaic humans.

The middle east and followed by anatolia greece and south asia were the second tier with early and late neolithic farming and metals. Then Europe came of age with mercantile and industrial revolution colonization that overshadowed older civilizations including their own greece and rome. Then it's been the US. At all stages you can ask questions like why did europe not come up with nuclear tech or the computer chip. why did Indians not colonize the new world. every place had its critical mass hey day and decay.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 May 2019 22:46

Guns germs and steel book explains longitudinal versus latitudinal development. Americas and africa are longitudinal and eurasia is latitudinal

Because climate changes rapidly longitudinally, farming in particular spreads with difficulty along that axis - crops dont grow even a few hundred miles away due to significant climate and soil changes

ricky_v · Post by **ricky_v** » 05 May 2019 08:53

yes, jareds book "the rationalization of failure" does wave away all misgivings. no farming, because north-south axis instead of east-west, no domestication because animals are unmanageable(what about dogs? cows? horses? were they magically present in the current form when humans first appeared or were they bred for generations to serve us better?),incidentally, zebras were tamed to an extent in rhodesia, hell even few moose have been tamed,but they animals of africa?they are a handful.
or what about elephants, curiously hannibals elephants are mentioned african but the species seems to have died out, the only verified sources available now or ever have been indian ones.
No river navigation or river city states, because the rivers are unnavigable and are infested by crocodiles and or all wood quality is supposedly poor. No ocean navigation or travel to madagascar because??(anybody can fill it in themselves). NO WHEEL because ground is bumpy and who would they tether it to. No surviving architecture, no new useful philosophy because something something too hard. Nobody makes excuses for austronesians and when faced scarcity, they took to oceans and ranged far and wide, while africans have to be spoon fed dollops of delusions of "we wuz kangz" of egypts and when euros fuked it up as is their wont, they forgot every knowledge and custom and became slaves, or had they stayed that way without euro discovery,they would all be wakandans.

disha · Post by **disha** » 05 May 2019 09:30

Singha wrote:indeed its strange that africa which has bountiful natural resources, fertile land, fresh water could not develop a powerful tools based civilization at par with the old world belt of civilizations running from crete-greece - levant - mesopotamia - persia - india - china .

Actually Africa had and has great civilizations. it is just that euro- centric view that called Africa as a dark continent and it was propagated over and over and over.

All our history lessons we are drilled that "Africa was a dark continent" and we repeated it ad-nauseum.

Everything modern came out of Euro. So Euro- has civilization and everybody else well uncivilized. But that does not fly rationally, so what is the explanation? The explanation is simple, Euros- were totally ignorant and anything out side of their ignorant box, it did not exist.

In fact Euro- were the last one to get civilized. Euro- can be thought of having civilization only in the past 30-40 years. BTW, the greeks should be part of the Asia or Asia-minor.

I think the reason for any civilization to begin, following basics are required:

1. Abundance of food, surpluses allow humans to not worry about the next source of food but tinker around like monkeys and discover new things
2. Water coupled with weather. Too arid or too wet or too cold or too hot creates its own problems. It allows you to settle down but not develop.

However both can be overcome, if one has a commodity that can be traded or is at a center of trade.

In Africa, here are some great civilizations:

https://www.history.com/news/7-influent ... an-empires

^Above article itself has its biases, but I will let it pass.

Check this out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sao_civilisation

Point is for Euro- cultures which could loot, pillage, rape, murder and in general invent new ways of killing effectively were the only ones to be considered great civilizations.

In that sense., Guns, germs and steel is just a pathetic book trying to propagate why Euro- could be the only "civilization".

tandav · Post by **tandav** » 05 May 2019 13:43

disha wrote:
Singha wrote:indeed its strange that africa which has bountiful natural resources, fertile land, fresh water could not develop a powerful tools based civilization at par with the old world belt of civilizations running from crete-greece - levant - mesopotamia - persia - india - china .
Actually Africa had and has great civilizations. it is just that euro- centric view that called Africa as a dark continent and it was propagated over and over and over.

All our history lessons we are drilled that "Africa was a dark continent" and we repeated it ad-nauseum.

Everything modern came out of Euro. So Euro- has civilization and everybody else well uncivilized. But that does not fly rationally, so what is the explanation? The explanation is simple, Euros- were totally ignorant and anything out side of their ignorant box, it did not exist.

In fact Euro- were the last one to get civilized. Euro- can be thought of having civilization only in the past 30-40 years. BTW, the greeks should be part of the Asia or Asia-minor.

I think the reason for any civilization to begin, following basics are required:

1. Abundance of food, surpluses allow humans to not worry about the next source of food but tinker around like monkeys and discover new things
2. Water coupled with weather. Too arid or too wet or too cold or too hot creates its own problems. It allows you to settle down but not develop.

However both can be overcome, if one has a commodity that can be traded or is at a center of trade.

In Africa, here are some great civilizations:

https://www.history.com/news/7-influent ... an-empires

^Above article itself has its biases, but I will let it pass.

Check this out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sao_civilisation

Point is for Euro- cultures which could loot, pillage, rape, murder and in general invent new ways of killing effectively were the only ones to be considered great civilizations.

In that sense., Guns, germs and steel is just a pathetic book trying to propagate why Euro- could be the only "civilization".

West, Islamic and Chinese Civilization have many mutual admirers precisely because they have a history of genocide inbuilt in their DNA. The reason today Islamic countries kowtow to China is because they know that China has an internal history of genocide that surpasses anything that Islam itself is capable of.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 May 2019 16:17

Are some of you making the arguement that africans are naturally inferior? Just so i am clear on what you mean?

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 05 May 2019 21:04

Lalmohan wrote:Are some of you making the arguement that africans are naturally inferior? Just so i am clear on what you mean?

That's what "Rationalisation of Failure" sounds like to me, yes.

ricky_v · Post by **ricky_v** » 06 May 2019 18:25

in many ways yes, though the post is directed more towards the apologists of a hapless situation; farming? no but you see, the axis should be so and so; geo location?no but you see the positioning must be such degrees off the equator; navigation?no but you see the crocs infest the water. diamond makes it pretty clear within the first 10 pages or so on why the situation of the world is as of date, being the title of the work and the explanation of thus.
every civilization is weighed against all parameters and we; all do that, that there is none comparable for the sub-saharans is not the fault of the presenter; there is no comparable civilization of andamanese and aboriginals as well, but do we bat an eyelid when mentioning such, no we leave them to their devices and worry not about the faux racism that is sometimes associated with truth.
also, in this august forum where the denizens of certain countries are mocked openly asserting animal characteristics and there are models developed to that study(limbic etc), when the death of their young in explosions is considered triumphant, where the members mock the appearance of a foreign lady minister for the sin of being ugly and all such behaviour is considered acceptable,why is the contempt of one for a set of people for merely existing considered repulsive?what validates ones hate mongering based on religion,nationality,custom as against race?this line of questioning given the surrounding is odd.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 07 May 2019 13:20

Very interesting find - https://www.amarujala.com/photo-gallery ... -chandauli
Iron tools, weapons, 50 pots for ore smelting, pot-shards dated from 1800-700 BC. Chandauli is just east of Varanasi.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 May 2019 13:33

ricky_v wrote:in many ways yes, though the post is directed more towards the apologists of a hapless situation; farming?

I dunno... smells a bit like white supremacist koolaid
I worry about those people

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 08 May 2019 02:20

Sorry if OT, I am posting here to catch the attention of those who need to see this and you are likely to frequent this thread.
How Catholic Xtianity deals with "freedom" when it applies to them

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 08 May 2019 04:08

In the description of Africa (a Vast Continent) one has to be specific of which Africa: Modern Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt - all Africa - were highly advanced civilizations of their time. Carthage (Land of Hannibal, also perhaps the richest city in the world at its peak), Atlas Mountains etc.

If the point was to ask if Black Africans have created their own civilization - then yes, Nubia (before conquest by Egypt), The People who lived in what is now Sudan (before Sahara became a desert) had domesticated animals/plants. In what is now Niger and Cameroon, Iron Smelting existed independent of Egyptian Influence. Others were Sao, Kanem. Bantu People while expanding upwards also left traces of artworks, agriculture, domesticated animals etc. What we cant find is a written language/Literature, Chariots, Organized Religion or Cities - not sure if they were wiped out in subsequent Muslim/Christian slave trade or that they never existed?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 08 May 2019 13:32

west Africa (particularly Ghana) and Zimbabwe also had significant civilizational developments

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 11 May 2019 09:35

https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/t ... atsapp.com

ASI unearths new evidence of Nellore’s maritime history

2,000-year-old Pallava, Satavahana settlements found

Return to frontpage ASI unearths new evidence of Nellore’s maritime history

TODAY'S PAPER NATIONAL ANDHRA PRADESH
ANDHRA PRADESH ASI unearths new evidence of Nellore’s maritime history
Unique discovery:Early historic findings by the ASI at Gottiprolu near Naidupeta in Nellore district.K. Ravi Kumar
Appaji Reddem
VIJAYAWADA, MAY 11, 2019 00:00 IST
UPDATED: MAY 11, 2019 06:27 IST
2,000-year-old Pallava, Satavahana settlements found
The discovery of a 40-acre walled enclosure with artefacts at Gottiprolu near Naidupeta in Nellore district has come as a source of major encouragement for archaeologists and historians, who believe the area was a major maritime trade point in ancient days.
The recent findings would help corroborate theories pointing to a historic maritime past. Prominent among the findings are goblet-shaped vessels and conical jars which are worth mentioning as they are supposed to have been used by the elite. These were not used for cooking but were used to consume wine,” surmised Dr. Sreelakshmi, Superintending Archaeologist, Archaeological Survey of India, Excavation Branch VI, Bengaluru.

Dr. Sreelakshmi, a student of Prof. K.P. Rao, Department of History, University of Hyderabad (Central University), along with her team, made these discoveries while she was re-visiting the findings of Prof. Rao made during the early 1990s along the Swarnamukhi river. Prof. Rao made his first findings made when he was associated with S.V. University in 1993.
Unique discovery

“This particular site discovered with 6-ft-wide brick walls, structures and defence systems, is yielding new evidence on the Andhra region as earlier exploited sites in the South do not have evidence of such structures, which is very interesting,” said Prof. K.P. Rao.
“This probably indicates that it is a regional capital which is significant in terms of defence, maritime and economic activity. This place seems to have been culturally significant. We can say that the place must have played a vital role around the 1st and 2nd Century AD. This can be termed as a unique site in terms of archaeological evidence in South India,” he said.
The site, with 45 settlements, provides evidence to the theories proposed by experts at Arikamedu, Pondicherry, Sisupalgarh in Odisha and Kaveripatnam in Tamil Nadu where some artefacts related to maritime trade were found. However, Gottiprolu is a much bigger site and proves several literary and historical observations made by noted historians.
In fact, this is the first such excavation by the Bengaluru excavation branch in AP. Established in 2001, it carried out excavations at Kurugodu (Karnataka), Keeladi, Kodumanal (Tamil Nadu) where Neolithic settlements and elaborate structural remains of Sangam period were found.

A conical jar placed at the eastern side of the structure is an important find as such jars are widely distributed in Tamil Nadu and are considered to be an imitation of Roman Amphorae jars. A series of broken terracotta pipes fitted into one another found near this structure shed light on the civic amenities maintained by the occupants of this site. The most outstanding discovery so far made at the site is a massive brick structure that rises to a height of nearly 2 m and about 3.40 m in width.
The site of Gottiprolu lies on the right bank of a distributary of the Swarnamukhi, 17 km east of Naidupet and 80 km away from Tirupati and Nellore. The archaeological mound is known as ‘Kota Dibba’ (fortified mound).

P.S:
Too much of hype for "Keeladi". Excellent archaeological sites are being found to capture the maritime history of India. "Gottiprolu" is about 10 times bigger and many things such as Rock cut lakes are being found.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 14 May 2019 22:20

Like Doggerland in the North Sea, one day the seas around India will be probed, I hope.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... ket-newtab