2019 General Elections News and Discussion

[aylamrin]

Hello everyone! My registration request was approved, thanks to everyone for accepting me into the community.

aylamrin Ji:

Welcome to the BRF community.

Cheers

Thanks Peregrine Ji!

Any news of WB ? 6th and 7th could be very gruesome and downright filthy!

[Primus]

Guys, please don't jump all over me. I am not making any equivalences, expect that those who innocents ones who got killed and their kith and kin need justice, thats all. Anyway, I completely understand that the topic of relevance is 194 Sikh genocide since Congoons pose as champions of minority rights, and so no need to being in any other riot as a way of any equivalence to let Congoons off the hook. I am speaking purely in moralistic and spiritual terms, but lets discuss this on another day.

Please cut CRS Ji some slack. His heart is in the right place I believe. He is one of those who must put his own on a pedestal and start to wonder if they are indeed not divine beings and simply human like himself. We all tend to do this with our parents when we are very young, believing that they are infallible, invulnerable, paragons of virtue and honesty.

The same with so many of us Hindus. We just cannot accept anything less than perfection in our leaders and so easily believe the lies and allegations flung their way by the opposition. In this context it is a bit sad that despite so much evidence against Modi having the slightest blemish on his handling of the 2002 riots, we start having doubts the moment the issue is mentioned. So many of us still believe that Modi was indeed guilty of retribution against the muslims, but that it is a good thing that he was.

This is no different from the earlier post by Nikhil T where he is quick to start feeling bad that perhaps this one time Modi indeed lied to the public and that makes him 'not such a saint any more'. We do not have the tenacity of purpose and dedication that makes the Congoon followers stick to their leaders even when they know the fellows are corrupt to the core.

This is war folks, all is fair. It is a question of survival of Dharma, just do what it takes. And have a little more of it, 'ye of little faith'.

[Ardeshir]

Sorry, but by default, I am a dhoti shiverer.
Modijee will lose onlee

[Ardeshir]

Some very interesting new questions being asked in this OpIndia article. Please spread far and wide.
https://www.opindia.com/2019/05/exclusi ... kshadweep/

India Today and the Indian Express had covered this story extensively back in the day. The details of this vacation have been extensively reported and for the past few days, extensively debated. However, there now seems to be an unmissable Bofors link to this holiday taken by Rajiv Gandhi. A portion of the Indian Express report that was published on 24th January 1988 talks about the people who were vacationing with Rajiv Gandhi.


Snapshot of Indian Express 1988 newspaper talking about Rajiv Gandhi’s INS Viraat holiday

There are two names that stand out immediately – Mrs Sonia Gandhi’s sister Nadia Valdemoro and Sonia’s brother-in-law Walter Vinci who was married to her other sister, Anushka.

In our exclusive investigative report in March 2019, which questioned whether Sonia Gandhi’s Italian family was involved in the Bofors scam. The conclusion came from the inclusion of two names in the summary of a meeting between the Government of India and Bofors representatives. The two names were Val de Moro and Walter Vinci – both ‘relatives of the prime minister’.


With the connections now coming to the fore, Sonia Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi and the Congress party must answer the following questions:

1. Was Sonia Gandhi’s Italian family onboard an Indian Naval Asset when foreigners are not allowed? We know for a fact they were present at the Island during the vacation, as disclosed by Indian Express at the time.

2. Why did Val de Moro and Walter Vinci’s names appear in the Bofors meeting when they were never suspected prior to it?

3. Only 2 months after their names came up in the Bofors scandal, why did the Prime Minister of India entertain them on a private vacation?

4. Why were their names never disclosed to the JPC?

5. Was Rajiv Gandhi protecting Sonia Gandhi’s Italian family?

6. Was there more to this Lakshadweep vacation with Bofors accused on board?

7. Why was Arun Singh’s family possibly on-board after he had resigned over the Bofors scandal?

8. Were Arun Singh and his family being ‘rewarded’ for Singh’s “loyalty”?

9. Why would the Prime Minister of India take along a resigned defence official’s family on a private vacation who had resigned under the cloud of Bofors scam?

[khatvaanga]

Looks like BJP is heading for a landslide win on May 23rd. So far not a single mistake in the campaign path and plan.

this looks and feels like a wave election. either bjp will get wiped out as in chattisgarh or win really big as in UP. 12 more days..

[DharmaB]

This is no different from the earlier post by Nikhil T where he is quick to start feeling bad that perhaps this one time Modi indeed lied to the public and that makes him 'not such a saint any more'. We do not have the tenacity of purpose and dedication that makes the Congoon followers stick to their leaders even when they know the fellows are corrupt to the core.

This is war folks, all is fair. It is a question of survival of Dharma, just do what it takes. And have a little more of it, 'ye of little faith'.

Modiji needs to be like Chaanakya, not like Satya Harischandra. Nation needs him to play the role of Chaankya.
CONG like anti-nationals always try to blame him (or anyone in power except them) that he is not like Satya Harischandra. Advantage of a Devil's Advocate role...

[nachiket]

This is no different from the earlier post by Nikhil T where he is quick to start feeling bad that perhaps this one time Modi indeed lied to the public and that makes him 'not such a saint any more'. We do not have the tenacity of purpose and dedication that makes the Congoon followers stick to their leaders even when they know the fellows are corrupt to the core.

This is war folks, all is fair. It is a question of survival of Dharma, just do what it takes. And have a little more of it, 'ye of little faith'.

Well said. We have this irritating habit of going overboard with the "holding our people to a higher standard" nonsense. Sure way to lose onlee. Modi rarely speaks about the 2002 riots and fr a good reason. Whatever he says will be immediately twisted around by our sold out media as an "acceptance of responsibility" for the riots, or worse. Doesn't matter what he says. No reason to give them free ammo.

[Peregrine]

This Rahul Gandhi's citizenship issue is going nowhere. UK Company House registry does not have biometric authentication of company directors. In the event all that the inquiry will show is that there existed a company and it had as director and secretary by the name of Raul Vinci. How does one say that he is the same as the current Congress president?

Good question.
1) The Cambridge M Phil is also given to Raul Vinci.
2) Rahul Gandhi listed among his education qualifications of obtaining M Phil from Cambridge but there is no record of him being a student there.
3)Subramaniam Swamysaid last night on TimesNow that Italy gives citizenship to children born of Italian citizens and Soniaji had submitted an application to Italy in name of Raul Vinci when he was born. He will produce a copy of that when need arises.

ramana Ji :

Your Post - 01 May 2019 23:04

I draw your attention to the Post by Ardeshir Ji @11 May 2019 00:09 :

It states “Sonia’s brother-in-law Walter Vici who is married to her other sister Anushka….

There you have it “Rahul Vinci”

Re : 3)Subramaniam Swamy One must refer to Italian Citizenship Law for Children born of "Non Italian" Father in a Foreign Country.

Cheers

[Suraj]

It’s really hard to use prior GE polling history to establish wave or incumbency here . Historically waves and anti-incumbency have been characterized by one thing - a significant rise in turnout . Not a high turnout but a rise , even if it’s from low previously to moderate next time .

The two GEs of this decade are turnout outliers . Historical average was 57% turnout . Biggest turnout was in 1984 with 63% and followed by 1989 which had 61 % .

However GE2014 had 66.5% and so far GE2019 is 67% . Using prior models you could tell 2014 was a wave plus anti-incimbency . But then what is 2019 ?

Historically every high turnout GE has been followed by turnout moderation by 2-6 percentage points next time . Happened in 1989 when bhrashtachar #1 had heavy anti incumbency but turnout dropped since the enthusiasm of 1984 waned.

I cannot think of a single Indian election GE or VS, where one wave election with absurdly high turnout was followed by even higher turnout, despite no emotive united opposition.

There’s no analysis of this from any party other than to assert it’s another wave, which too would be quite frankly unprecedented in Indian electoral history . Waves are rare . Two in a row is like hens teeth .

[kumarn]

Tremendous effort was made by EC, BJP/RSS, AOL/baba ramdev to get people like you and me to register in 2014. Hence, base itself jumped.

[Karan M]

Dlibu is also missing, we needed him to sprinkle some love on the opposition.

[Lilo]

TIME magazine cover shows the globalization of Hinduphobia

ABHISHEK BANERJEE
MAY 10, 2019


This cover of TIME Magazine, with a saffron sash, displayed prominently around the neck of PM Modi, along with the ominous headline of “Divider in Chief”.

Another step forward for the global liberal complex in stigmatizing Hindus as the “other” who are out to get everyone.

Obviously, not very many Indians read TIME Magazine, nor the New York Times, Le Monde, the Guardian nor the Economist nor care about what they have to say. Even fewer make their voting decisions based on them. While this is inherently a good thing at least in the short term, it does carry a long term risk.

We Hindus have our eyes closed while we are being viciously defamed across the world.
Sample this.

Or this.

It’s really not about Modi. It’s about Hindus. The global liberal complex has dedicated itself to projecting Hindus as regressive, violent and hateful people. The insane characterization of India as “Lynchistan” went beyond the pages of India’s Lutyens newspapers a long time ago. Liberals are taking it fully global.

Look at how this characterization of India was casually slipped into a question that American Presidential candidate Tulsi Gabbard was asked:


Observe that the question is taking it for granted that PM Modi is “repressive”. The liberal complex no longer even allows for debate on the subject. It’s just assumed.

This kind of characterization of PM Modi and India is astonishing when you look at it in the context of the US Presidential election. Candidates such as Bernie Sanders have lavished praise on Soviet and Cuban dictators, but that does not seem to be an issue.

Perhaps you are an Indian who does not like PM Modi. But take a look around yourself. Does it feel like our country is being ruled by someone who is worse than Stalin or Fidel Castro? They are saying India is ruled by “Hindu Taliban”. Tell me which BJP leader you think is actually like Mullah Omar or Osama bin Laden.

Whether you like PM Modi or not, when our democratically elected Prime Minister is portrayed as worse than Stalin, Castro or Osama bin Laden, it hurts the interest of every Indian. We are all global citizens. How the world perceives us matters.

In this information war, images matter. The digital image of PM Modi with the saffron sash on the TIME cover was created for a reason. It is to sow in the minds of people worldwide that saffron = evil.


An image of Hanuman that went viral on the streets of Indian cities was reported in the Washington Post as the “face of militant Hinduism”.

The agenda is clear. Modi is just an excuse. They are out to get us all. They intend to stigmatize any expression of Hinduness, no matter how small.

This hatred for all things Hindu extends to anything that can be associated with India.


You might have heard about this New York Times article suggesting that love for sarees has something to do with Hindu fundamentalism. You might have mocked it on social media. But so what? Did New York Times delete the article, withdraw it or issue an apology? We Indians can see that the premise of the article is absurd, but does the rest of the world know that? That article was not meant to fool Indians, but to fool the rest of the world. And the New York Times achieved its objective of telling the world that sarees = evil.

Like I pointed out here, one of the biggest channels in Latin America is now telling the folks over there that Sardar Patel was a “right-wing bigot”.


Latin America is not New York that you would meet Indians everywhere. This is probably one of the first things most of those viewers are hearing about India’s domestic politics. This is something they will remember. Perhaps a decade later, when India’s global economic footprint expands even further and Indian businessmen and professionals go to South American shores, the local population will ask them: “Why do you Indians make colossal statues of right-wing bigots?”

Do you have an answer ready for that?

Still, think this is just about PM Modi?

I said earlier that we Hindus have our eyes closed. Because we are not speaking for ourselves, liberals are filling in the vacuum by drawing up a picture of Hindus as violent and intolerant. And wherever possible, liberals are happy to cultivate dangerous beliefs about Hindus.

Oh DNA, how naive you are!

No, they weren’t showing their ‘ignorance’.

Rather they were worried that explaining what the swastika means in India would dispel other people’s ignorance about Hindus.

If some people in the West foolishly believe that the Hindu swastika has something to do with Nazis, the liberal is quite happy to let them keep believing that. It’s serving the liberal agenda. Why would the liberals act against the interest of their own propaganda?

The liberal would much rather explain why the hijab and burqa are feminist symbols.

But sarees should arouse suspicion.

What is the endgame for liberals here? It is to create a form of global cultural apartheid against Hindus.

The world has changed a lot. There is no invader coming through the Khyber pass any more. The weapons and the form of war have changed. But conquest is still very much a thing. It’s all about information now. If we Hindus do not stand up and write our own story, somebody else will. And in the great theatre of humanity, we Hindus will be cast as the villains.

[Karan M]

Lilo, If you notice, its a handful of figures doing most of the hit jobs. They weren't taken to task. Modi sarkar merely ignored them.

[Anujan]

Typically the well connected get to write opinion pieces in foreign publications. Like Barkha in Washington Post. Read the byline of who wrote it.

The only way to counter it is to have right wing writers also to do chai-biskoot with influential foreign publications and get the ability to write op-eds.

[nachiket]

Lilo, If you notice, its a handful of figures doing most of the hit jobs. They weren't taken to task. Modi sarkar merely ignored them.

Taking them to task would only improve their image internationally with the likes of WaPo, Economist, Time and NYT. They will be hailed as intrepid journalists being harassed by the big bad Yindoo nationalists. Ignoring is the right response. It has no real effect on India itself. Neither businesses nor foreign governments take their cue from these worthies. Otherwise nobody would be doing business with China. Within India itself, only the anglophone elite read these rags, and only a section of them take them seriously.

[Karan M]

The RWers wont get a chance in most of these establishments. Ironically, both the western RW and LW dislike us.
RW are EJ influenced and dislike our Hindu cultural roots and tendency to chart an independent course.
LW loathe Hinduism per se, are in bed with our local left and dislike any free market GOI.

The first step should be to put drastic steps in place to curb fake news with real penalties. 90% of MSM reports will automatically self-correct. Modi was concerned about bad rep in english press (Gujarat event) and influenced by movers/shakers like AJ who was best buddies with many of these press bigwigs, so didn't put a policy in place and withdrew Irani's plan. Big mistake.

[Lilo]

Lilo, If you notice, its a handful of figures doing most of the hit jobs. They weren't taken to task. Modi sarkar merely ignored them.

What to do onlee Karan M ji...

"Independence of media" is one of the prerequisite based on which 50 Billion USD FDI comes every year to balance our external account in our liberalized economy.As long as they can threaten us with the withdrawal of FDI whatever foul lies (like labeling India as "lynchistan") which the SLIME(selfloathing indian media elite) backed by the West cook against India have to be borne by the Indian nation. We can counter them not shut them down.
In the meantime keep strengthening our economic & political frameworks & build/reform institutions while keeping a scorching pace of acquiring more national power here & abroad - someday the SLIME will be put in place.

Taking them to task would only improve their image internationally with the likes of WaPo, Economist, Time and NYT. They will be hailed as intrepid journalists being harassed by the big bad Yindoo nationalists. Ignoring is the right response. It has no real effect on India itself. Neither businesses nor foreign governments take their cue from these worthies. Otherwise nobody would be doing business with China. Within India itself, only the anglophone elite read these rags, and only a section of them take them seriously.

Yes counter their propaganda with our superior numbers & by building and supporting more media portals like Opindia - after all we are a Nation of 1.3 Billion people with atleast a hundred million who can respond in English to their calumny .

[mmasand]

Typically the well connected get to write opinion pieces in foreign publications. Like Barkha in Washington Post. Read the byline of who wrote it.

The only way to counter it is to have right wing writers also to do chai-biskoot with influential foreign publications and get the ability to write op-eds.

I can't even begin to tell you how hard it is to get published in a journal, let alone write an article if one is associated with the right of spectrum, I'm not even mentioning far right (the likes of Bajrang Dal etc).

A colleague of mine had her PhD proposal rejected several times (in Blighty) because it looked at the macro-economic effects of Gujarat's economic model, and how it could be replicated in India.

[Karan M]

Lilo, If you notice, its a handful of figures doing most of the hit jobs. They weren't taken to task. Modi sarkar merely ignored them.

Taking them to task would only improve their image internationally with the likes of WaPo, Economist, Time and NYT. They will be hailed as intrepid journalists being harassed by the big bad Yindoo nationalists.

Let them. As it is they claim fake harassment, let there be true laws in place to hold them accountable for their slander & Hinduphobia.

Ignoring is the right response. It has no real effect on India itself. Neither businesses nor foreign governments take their cue from these worthies. Otherwise nobody would be doing business with China. Within India itself, only the anglophone elite read these rags, and only a section of them take them seriously.

Completely disagree with this saar.. there are significant real effects on Indians via shaping the perception of many of our west fixated middle class urban folks and also shaming Indian business folks on trips abroad who then come back and act as Gunga dins..

The Chinese example is not germane because the west attacks the PRC Govt.. they don't attack Chinese culture with such viciousness and hence Chinese business men/ordinary folks even pick up sympathy votes for being successful "despite" their Govt.

In our case, they are attacking the very bedrock of the Indian's self belief, his faith & implying that by supporting anyone remotely associated with their faith, they are evil.

I have seen several family members, friends fall prey to this phenomenon. At its peak, especially post the Delhi assault on the young girl, several of my friends while traveling had horrible experiences of being treated as filth, merely because they were Indian. In one notable case at an airport, people made a point to sit away from a guy from the deep south, making pointed remarks about his origin, the country and of course, fact he was dark, watching obviously "alien" videos on his laptop didn't help either.

This perception has deliberately been mainstreamed. Indian Hindu males in particular, are considered primitive, sexually depraved, and out to either molest or chase white women. Just google for the standard meme on Indians chasing b*bs and v*gene.

That entire Pew de Pie whatever crap vs T series saw a bunch of extremely racist and xenophobic memes against Indian men in particular, being widespread. In fact, on FB, where I used to subscribe to some generic economic progress kind of pages. anytime anything positive about India is posted, a random caucasian poster or even latin americans will randomly insert some abusive meme, and you can see from the number of likes, that its having a widespread effect.

If anyone attempts to counter this, a NYT or WaPo article will be waved to imply, that the above is justifiable.

We ignore all this to our peril. We have been too chalta hain, with these vipers for far too long.

[Karan M]

What to do onlee Karan M ji...

"Independence of media" is one of the prerequisite based on which 50 Billion USD FDI comes every year to balance our external account in our liberalized economy.As long as they can threaten us with the withdrawal of FDI whatever foul lies (like labeling India as "lynchistan") which the SLIME(selfloathing indian media elite) backed by the West cook against India have to be borne by the Indian nation. We can counter them not shut them down.
In the meantime keep strengthening our economic & political frameworks & build/reform institutions while keeping a scorching pace of acquiring more national power here & abroad - someday the SLIME will be put in place.

Please no Ji for me. I don't think this is true anymore re "Independence of media being equal to FDI", after all the PRC ran on FDI and fund managers invest all across ME and Latam where free media is a joke. That FDI comes to make money. Its not charity. No amount of freedom of speech would entice FDI. Its basically hot money intended to generate quick returns and recycled ASAP. In which case, if we have strict laws against Hinduphobia, anti-Hindu hate speech, and fake news and bias from media outlets, then automatically a lot of the domestic vipers would fall in line.

Ironically, getting these vipers in line would take off a lot of noise from our press and end up reassuring many of these investors. They will be less spooked. The aim of the noise is to stifle investments into India after all apart from maligning Indians, politically aware Hindus in particular. For all their talk of "free media", west prefers to work with tough Govts who toe their line and couldn't care less about what happens domestically beyond some tut-tutting here and there.

The business guys abroad will continue to come. One Swiss guy was in a discussion with some acquaintances and said, incredulously, there is no other country in the world that gives me 9%-10% return minimum (he had put in money in debt in some Indian firms) like this. Point is they are after money, and the Indian growth economy offers them significant opportunities.

In fact, the more we entice long term investments by these guys, the more power we have to push back against the EJ crowd & NYT etc. Even if we are we not penalizing the companies which sponsor NYT for instance, the business guys who invest in India will push back if their interests are threatened.

Yes counter their propaganda with our superior numbers & by building and supporting more media portals like Opindia - after all we are a Nation of 1.3 Billion people with atleast a hundred million who can respond in English to their calumny .

That alone won't work I am afraid, because many of the established media houses are firmly in bed with the G-clan.

[negi]

In the second term there should be special attention given to DDM , get some greasy ones on corruption charges and sink their career for good . The rest will weasel out .

[IndraD]

https://swarajyamag.com/politics/why-el ... omy-stupid
very good article : Modi-Shah fully aware elections are not won on development plank only hence the diversion and discourse

Fact that at least four initiatives – 10% non-caste-based reservations, Citizenship Bill, PM Kisan doles, tax benefits for middle classes – came in last 2 months suggests both Modi and Shah r aware elections r not won on development alone!

[Primus]

In the meantime keep strengthening our economic & political frameworks & build/reform institutions while keeping a scorching pace of acquiring more national power here & abroad - someday the SLIME will be put in place.

Hate to quote Iqbal here, but this is exactly what we need to do.

"Khudi ko kar bulund itna
Ki har taqdeer se pehle
Khuda bande se ye puchhe
Bata teri raza kya hai"

Raise your self-esteem so high that
Before writing your fate
God himself will ask
Tell me what it is you want

Don't know how many here have traveled to China on a tourist visa for a vacation. Your entire itinerary, each town you plan to visit and each hotel you plan to stay at has to be approved. And in each place you are required to spend a couple of hours going to a government outlet/shop and look at the merchandise there. You don't have to, but if you do not comply, the entire cost of your trip is taxed an extra 20% or more.

China does not give a **** about the opinion of any other country. Instead, every one else is falling over their feet to do business with them.

Once you are strong economically and militarily, everything else falls in place. Cultural, societal and political power inevitably follows. India is slowly but surely getting there. The brown sepoys too will gradually fade into irrelevance. Until then just ignore them.

[Karan M]

China does not give a **** about the opinion of any other country. Instead, every one else is falling over their feet to do business with them.

Once you are strong economically and militarily, everything else falls in place. Cultural, societal and political power inevitably follows. India is slowly but surely getting there. The brown sepoys too will gradually fade into irrelevance. Until then just ignore them.

Err.. not exactly accurate. You are a public academic write anything negative about PRC, no visa to PRC ever, unless you kow-tow. Bijness prospects affected.

You even support Taiwan in any form, loads of effort undertaken to ensure you are tarred and feathered.

Please don't be taken in by this account of China's strong and silent treatment, they have managed the western media and academia like masters. Only now with tacit and overt propping by the western establishment, is the western media making a hue and cry about PRCs excesses, because its now a rival.

Its demonization has started.

Several Indians have been successful in terms of media management, but the LW kind (left wingers visiting from abroad were given a load of carrots), the RW is clueless and with its head stuck in some utopian ideal "oh why don't they like us onlee". They neither have the carrot nor the stick.

They are waging war on ppl on facebook, twitter, not understanding folks views on India are shaped by what they read. Choreographed assaults this election.

NYT, Economist, New Yorker, Atlantic, Time, NPR. Modi may still win the election, but the poison these people write remains online and influences all the young voters and urban guys who seek western validation, let alone the rest of the world's impression of India.

[eklavya]

Fasten your seat belts on D-Street: Major horse trading ahead post May 23

In the final analysis, a sub-200 tally for the BJP is a realistic projection, in my view, and this will restrict the NDA tally to around 200-220. Comparatively, the UPA partners and other regional parties will gain considerable strength, thereby opening a case for aggressive horse trading. BJP will have to aggressively seek support from partners beyond the NDA, which will be a test for the BJP leadership.

Alternately, there can also be reasonable case for a third front-UPA combination.

[nachiket]

Karan saar, what exactly do you suggest we do then? If we start locking up these rascals, there will be a deluge of articles in international media about how Modi is a dictator suppressing honest journalists blah blah. We already see that even without actually locking anyone up. All media these days is about pushing an agenda.

There is no truly unbiased media house left anywhere without a political bent. Unfortunately for us both the left and right leaning media in the west has an axe to grind against us. And we have an abundance of presstitutes in India itself willing to follow their lead.

The Chinese can make it work because they go the whole hog and assert absolute control over all media active within China. That is what we will have to do as well and I don't think of that as a positive development, because unlike China, the ideology of the govt. in power in India can change 180 degrees every 5 years. And the same state control of media will become a huge liability then. Half measures like locking up a few journalists will not work when you leave a hundred others free to cry about it in full visibility of the international press. In our system, we can't really go beyond that though, nor should we.

[Suraj]

I agree with Karan that ignoring these is not an answer. Even blocking their access is not an answer. Easy for them to climb up a cross and claim victimhood, or celebrate every act of civil disobedience against the govt shutting access to nyt.com ("nyah nyah, you can't stop freedom, see Indians can access our site through vpn").

IMHO, Hinduphobia has to be defined, its definition defended and its presence immediately countered with accusations of hate speech, by us. What defines hate speech against Hindus cannot be owned by the other side, at all, ever. I've already noted some prefacing their attacks saying 'attacking RSS/someone is not attack on Hinduism', so that it gives them a free pass to do so.

But that is a circular reasoning. The person using hate speech also defines it as not hate speech so that they can indulge in it. That cannot be permitted. Hindus need to own what defines Hinduphobia, and Hindus themselves need to assert the presence of Hinduphobia, refusing the other side the authority to define the term.

The problem right now, is that the other side defines the parameters of what Hinduism, Hindutva etc are. It also defines whether or not the language used, constitutes hate speech. That cannot pass.

Owning the parameters of what defines hate speech against us, is the first step in responding. Right now, they claim ownership of that too. AIPAC and the US Jewish lobby wouldn't dream of letting any characterization of Jews or Israel be owned by others in this manner. Same for CAIR and Islam. It does not have to be, and should not be, a careful equal-equal argument. Immediate angry response, repeated lawsuits, until they realize it's not worth their time to poke an angry tiger.

It is not a question of always making them pay, or even having landmark wins in court, but placing a cost on creating such content, because they need to realize they'll get a barrage of legal trouble for putting that in print, including action against their India correspondents - western and local. It's not cheap, and it's going to take repeated action for a period of time until sense is beaten into them. Right now they essentially have a free pass because they can say what they like and also claim what the like about what they said.

[Karan M]

Karan saar, what exactly do you suggest we do then? If we start locking up these rascals, there will be a deluge of articles in international media about how Modi is a dictator suppressing honest journalists blah blah. We already see that even without actually locking anyone up. All media these days is about pushing an agenda.

No need to lock up the journalists, just hold press license in abeyance for violations. If the laws are specific and fair, then many of these guys will automatically see the writing on the wall and tone down their rhetoric. Its good for all of us. We don't want an echo chamber either (saw how that contributed to MP, RJ, CG results).

There is no truly unbiased media house left anywhere without a political bent. Unfortunately for us both the left and right leaning media in the west has an axe to grind against us. And we have an abundance of presstitutes in India itself willing to follow their lead.

Exactly and they need the Indians to lead the Gunga din charge, note how careful all these guys have been in recent days to have "established" Indians write what they want them to write. They are very image conscious and don't want to come across as overtly racist and bigoted, though they very much are.

The Chinese can make it work because they go the whole hog and assert absolute control over all media active within China. That is what we will have to do as well and I don't think of that as a positive development, because unlike China, the ideology of the govt. in power in India can change 180 degrees every 5 years. And the same state control of media will become a huge liability then. Half measures like locking up a few journalists will not work when you leave a hundred others free to cry about it in full visibility of the international press. In our system, we can't really go beyond that though, nor should we.

I don't want state control of the media. I want shrill fake reporting (from either side) to be actively tracked down and liable for punishment. If for instance you claim x people were lynched because of beef politics, prove it OR lose your press license. Be a blogger and exercise your "free bias". But to be MSM you need to be held to much much higher standards. They use their MSM presence to claim precedence, authority, be cited etc and even have protection. If they are going to act in a blatantly biased manner, they lose these privileges.

Also, put standards in place for journalism around core courses and studies. You cannot write on certain topics, eg defence or economics, without having prior established background or work in the domain or taking certifications. Right now, anyone who wrote on Sonam Kapoors fashion will overnight become an expert on GDP accuracy and what's even better, is his word counts for more than anyone who cant publish in MSM. Enforce standards.

Second, put laws in place against Hinduphobia in specific. So that irrespective of which Govt comes in power, you cannot use certain dog-whistle phrases and methods to attack the general Hindu populace. A "Hindu nationalist" Govt can do that. Dont discriminate against other faiths but ensure yours is no longer tarred and feathered using bigoted terms and methods.

We have a running joke right now, where our journalists are 10x worse than random bloggers and random people on twitter. Because these "random people" actually spent some effort in being credible and often, balanced as versus our "MSM" folks.

[Karan M]

Brilliantly articulated! Agree with all the points.

I agree with Karan that ignoring these is not an answer. Even blocking their access is not an answer. Easy for them to climb up a cross and claim victimhood, or celebrate every act of civil disobedience against the govt shutting access to nyt.com ("nyah nyah, you can't stop freedom, see Indians can access our site through vpn").

IMHO, Hinduphobia has to be defined, its definition defended and its presence immediately countered with accusations of hate speech, by us. What defines hate speech against Hindus cannot be owned by the other side, at all, ever. I've already noted some prefacing their attacks saying 'attacking RSS/someone is not attack on Hinduism', so that it gives them a free pass to do so.

But that is a circular reasoning. The person using hate speech also defines it as not hate speech so that they can indulge in it. That cannot be permitted. Hindus need to own what defines Hinduphobia, and Hindus themselves need to assert the presence of Hinduphobia, refusing the other side the authority to define the term.

The problem right now, is that the other side defines the parameters of what Hinduism, Hindutva etc are. It also defines whether or not the language used, constitutes hate speech. That cannot pass.

Owning the parameters of what defines hate speech against us, is the first step in responding. Right now, they claim ownership of that too. AIPAC and the US Jewish lobby wouldn't dream of letting any characterization of Jews or Israel be owned by others in this manner. Same for CAIR and Islam. It does not have to be, and should not be, a careful equal-equal argument. Immediate angry response, repeated lawsuits, until they realize it's not worth their time to poke an angry tiger.

[Suraj]

The Chinese Firewall example is quite a bad one. On one hand, it looks imposing and strong, but it's basically a nice big colander with lots of little holes. Whoever wants to get through the message can still get it through.

I do agree with using immigration bars against journalists doing these from within India. But it cannot be executive fiat. It has to be via legislated power letting the state respond to a legal petition made by private citizens against defamation and libel, by revoking visas of those associated with it. Journalists with their immigration entry so withdrawn have an immediate, lets say, 10 year bar on entry in any immigration category. Immigration law is one area where the state has plenty of leeway to define statute parameters.

[Karan M]

I don't recall asking for a Chinese firewall. Because it can be easily bypassed, and will also affect our productivity. Eg, you firewall Google, most Indians will be up in arms, right or left. Might have a short term benefit if Indian firms step up to take the space as in PRC, but I doubt it can be done quickly or cleanly by any Indian firm.

I think what's more important is as you noted, to have a proper system in place to ensure those who have systemic bias against India and Indian communities in particular, no longer need to have access to India and Indian resources in any form, physical or economic. The journalists represent these organizations. They are merely hitmen/women.

[Suraj]

Yes I was referring to nachiket's reference to Chinese system and not your points.

Non-Indian journalists acting in this capacity have to face legal proceedings in India against their actions, and face a potential long bar against subsequent entry. Indian reporting contributors would be subject to full Indian libel and defamation laws, with IMHO are too weak right now, and require substantial overhaul (in the structural reforms proposal thread, see my post).

[Karan M]

Only problem is gaming the Indian system and those who have better access to legal ecosystem and can bribe/turn up supporting evidence can dominate the discourse. Hence my proposal to only have the MSM license dropped. But even that can be gamed to a degree.

Structural reforms thread link here. Posting for more views, good stuff there.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7670&p=2350817#p2350817

[IndraD]

New GDP series faces fresh questions after NSSO discovers holes https://www.livemint.com/news/india/new ... 30351.html
In another hit job presstitutes and self proclaimed economosits doubt GDP figures ^^

Excellent rebuttal by Ashu Muglikar https://www.mynation.com/cricket/2-fact ... ffs-pr31rv

The NSSO data was specifically regarding the service sector. “Out of coverage” entities were 21% which means that they weren’t working in the service sector but while filing the MCA documents they had wrongly claimed to be service companies. Assuming that these companies are into manufacturing, does it make their output data irrelevant?

Obviously not. It was irrelevant or out of coverage for this particular NSSO study. The way forward is to ask these companies to correctly classify themselves as per the relevant NIC Industry code. Does it make the entire GDP numbers wrong by 38%? There is no bigger joke than this. Ministry of statistics planning and implementation said the exercise was meant to understand the data gaps and take remedial steps while undertaking the new base revision exercise for the proposed 2017-18 series. Fake intellectuals are attacking the government for finding the faults in the data.

[IndraD]

Suraj sir excellent post! Pranam

[eklavya]

IMHO, Hinduphobia has to be defined, its definition defended and its presence immediately countered with accusations of hate speech, by us. What defines hate speech against Hindus cannot be owned by the other side, at all, ever. I've already noted some prefacing their attacks saying 'attacking RSS/someone is not attack on Hinduism', so that it gives them a free pass to do so.

Hindus need to own what defines Hinduphobia, and Hindus themselves need to assert the presence of Hinduphobia, refusing the other side the authority to define the term.

Are you suggesting that this is done through legal means e.g. laws that criminalise criticism of RSS?

[Lilo]

IMHO, Hinduphobia has to be defined, its definition defended and its presence immediately countered with accusations of hate speech, by us. What defines hate speech against Hindus cannot be owned by the other side, at all, ever. I've already noted some prefacing their attacks saying 'attacking RSS/someone is not attack on Hinduism', so that it gives them a free pass to do so.

But that is a circular reasoning. The person using hate speech also defines it as not hate speech so that they can indulge in it. That cannot be permitted. Hindus need to own what defines Hinduphobia, and Hindus themselves need to assert the presence of Hinduphobia, refusing the other side the authority to define the term.

The problem right now, is that the other side defines the parameters of what Hinduism, Hindutva etc are. It also defines whether or not the language used, constitutes hate speech. That cannot pass.

Owning the parameters of what defines hate speech against us, is the first step in responding. Right now, they claim ownership of that too.

Suraj sir excellent post! Pranam

Agree.
Excellent stuff Suraj ji .
Can you pen an article expanding on that thought?

[Primus]

In our case, they are attacking the very bedrock of the Indian's self belief, his faith & implying that by supporting anyone remotely associated with their faith, they are evil.

This perception has deliberately been mainstreamed. Indian Hindu males in particular, are considered primitive, sexually depraved, and out to either molest or chase white women. Just google for the standard meme on Indians chasing b*bs and v*gene.

If anyone attempts to counter this, a NYT or WaPo article will be waved to imply, that the above is justifiable.

We ignore all this to our peril. We have been too chalta hain, with these vipers for far too long.

We are all Ambassadors for our race, our faith and our culture, no matter where we go and whether we want to be or not. Any brown person is considered FOB until he/she starts speaking at which point the accent, if local guarantees instant acceptance. Even in my case - have not been able to put on the local accent ever - I find I have no issues as long as I am my normal self.

The problem of Hinduism getting a bad rap is nothing new, have been hearing it for over 30 yrs - all the usual snake-charmer, rat-worshipper, cows on the streets crap. People often ask me in a serious tone when I tell them I am a Hindu and I do not eat beef - is it true that you worship cows in India? I respond equally seriously - no we do not worship them but we do love them, much like you love your cats and dogs. How would you feel if somebody was serving cat or dog meat here at this table? That shuts them up immediately.

In a world where democracy is celebrated (as it supposedly is in the West), you do have to stand up for what you believe in. 'Jo dar gaya, samjho mar gaya' - (he who is afraid is as good as dead) It is up to us to be proud Hindus and proud Indians, "apni chai mein khud hi shakkar milani padti hai" - (you need to sweeten your tea yourself). I lose no opportunity to correct people of their misconceptions both at work and at home - family or friends. You have to have the right tools to fight back with. Too many Hindus become sheepish and defensive when faced with this kind of bull$hit. The right approach is to educate yourself both about your own faith and culture and their own. A simple question to a Catholic would be ' is it true that you really eat Christ's body and drink his blood every Sunday"? And if he says yes, the trap is sprung, with 'so you really believe a piece of bread is the body of Christ in actuality?" (you can then discuss the 'Doctrine of Transubstantiation'). If he wants to take it further, you can ask him about the Gospel of John, 6:53 where Jesus urges his followers to eat his body and drink his blood and then say - how is this different from the cannibals of Papua New-Guinea who developed CJD from eating their ancestors' brains and whom you consider so inferior?

All this is terribly OT for this thread, and I beg the indulgence of the mods, but the whole point of this exercise is that we need to educate ourselves not only about us but also about the opposition, only then can you discuss or argue your case with conviction. Else you come across as a bumbling idiot which unfortunately is how most Hindus abroad appear.

An example would serve well here:

I have a close friend whose wife is English, both his sons have been brought up 'Janeyudhari Brahmins'. The boys both wear the holy thread, do not eat beef and proudly proclaim they are Hindu - helps to have an American accent and white skin of course - but hey, they are well respected and more importantly, well-liked by their local Catholic and Jewish friends. They do puja regularly at home and the neighbors (non-Hindu) come and sit and take prasad together.

So it is entirely up to us how we want to tell this story. And how we want our children to spread it.

[Suraj]

Only problem is gaming the Indian system and those who have better access to legal ecosystem and can bribe/turn up supporting evidence can dominate the discourse. Hence my proposal to only have the MSM license dropped. But even that can be gamed to a degree.

Structural reforms thread link here. Posting for more views, good stuff there.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7670&p=2350817#p2350817

I've already mentioned this issue - it is not required to win cases. It is simply required to increase the cost of writing stuff like that. The cost includes the corresponding foreign journalist likely losing their visa and having a 10 year bar on entry, and the Indian ones having to deal with local defamation cases. It's far easier to accomplish the former than the latter, since protection of citizen's rights is much stronger.

We all know the ways of the system - we have an opposition blabbermouth with a spectacular 25 consecutive anticipatory bails . Even I am proud we have a system capable of so smoothly generating bail after bail with n+1 start day = n end_day

[Suraj]

Are you suggesting that this is done through legal means e.g. laws that criminalise criticism of RSS?

You need to stop trolling. How many days have you been here since your last ban ?