MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 26 Jun 2019 15:40

as I have said earlier on this forum, that growler is actually quite helpful for us, both against china and naPakistan. As much as I like rafale, there is quite some time before we have Navy Mk2 flying from any of our carriers..even without carriers, Growler would be a great addition....wont mind this to our already existing circus..

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 26 Jun 2019 17:01

ArjunPandit wrote:as I have said earlier on this forum, that growler is actually quite helpful for us, both against china and naPakistan. As much as I like rafale, there is quite some time before we have Navy Mk2 flying from any of our carriers..even without carriers, Growler would be a great addition....wont mind this to our already existing circus..

Our concern is avoiding CAATSA sanctions at this point of time. And you are talking about growlers. Has US offered growler to even its closest allies till now except Australia? They guard it more fanatically than even F-35. I sincerely doubt they will put it on table for us anytime in the next 10 years.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 26 Jun 2019 18:23

darshanji may i request you to read the post above mine..
1. the article itself is saying growler may be offered to India
2. CATSA sanctions on India is just a pressure to buy more american maal,

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Jun 2019 19:31

1. Where in the article does it state that the Growler will be offered to India?

2. Threat of CAATSA sanctions is silliness on the part of the US. Will be a monumental blunder on their part to impose it. They will not. And that is not because of any undying love towards India, but rather because of the gravy train that will stop as a consequence.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Jun 2019 20:13

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1143851303283482624 ---->

Let us look at this 'deep' & 'broad' convergence in India-US ties. Does it extend to:

1. Climate Change - No
2. Trade issues - No
3. Pakistan - No
4. Russia - No
5. China - Not really

So what is it then?

6. US Arms sales to India - Yessss! You've got it. Applause all round.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Jun 2019 20:18

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1143834896491696128 ---> America isn't 'undermining' its relations with India. Washington's tendency is to look for junior partners & to be fair it never really obfuscates this. It is rather the dalals in India who built fanciful notions of natural alliance, etc. New Delhi must show some spine. Period.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1143836997829591042 ---> It has always been about making 'America great again'. But the dalals convinced you that it was somehow about 'America helping India become great again'. Haha.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1143835766889447424 ---> In the past few years, America was given the sense that it 'cannot lose India'. And that finally years of suspicions had been cast away. This was a huge mistake on the part of the Indian establishment & betrays a total lack of understanding of the Anglo-Saxon psyche at best.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 26 Jun 2019 21:35

Rakesh wrote:1. Where in the article does it state that the Growler will be offered to India?

2. Threat of CAATSA sanctions is silliness on the part of the US. Will be a monumental blunder on their part to impose it. They will not. And that is not because of any undying love towards India, but rather because of the gravy train that will stop as a consequence.

1. my bad it is not ..read what i wanted to read in hurry..

2. noone should think of otherwise from americans..if they can dump their keep for decades (read pakistan) then India is nothing...we have worst records(voting in UN, human rights, religious freedom and what not....) lot of expendable gangadins who can do that.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Jul 2019 22:57

X-Post from the Rafale Thread....

======================================

Website is not permitting cut-and-paste.

IAF to get Rafale fighter jets in September, flight to India next May
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 033753.cms

Senior air force officers say that the performance of the Rafale — specially the exceptional Meteor missile that out ranges every Pakistani air force jet and the SCALP that can virtually cover every inch of the neighbouring nation — makes a case for inducting the fighters in greater numbers.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Jul 2019 22:56

SCALP is inferior to BMos which is 3 times faster and Nirbhay when it is perfected for air launch has thrice the range though slightly slower. However , given the cost of these 3 missiles, the number in the inventory will be limited and used for v.high value targets only. ER PGMs and stand-off glide bombs would bd cheaper and more widely used.In a full blown spat with either Pak or China, penetrating enemy air space will be required for many ops.While the ALCM menu looks quite appetising the LR AAM requirement needs to be met.An LR AAM capable of downing Paki AEW aircraft, or even a sqd. of MIG-31s
equipped with 300+km R-33Es or in the future BMos-H equiv. to the 2000km hypersonic Kinzhal missile.

Arun.prabhu · Post by **Arun.prabhu** » 04 Jul 2019 23:30

Inferior because it's slower? I don't know. It is a stealthy design, though, which has it's advantages and which the Brahmos is not. It is also cheaper per unit, which is important as well. The 2000km hypersonic missile isn't going to be air launched. Certainly not by a fighter. As to the extreme long range BVR missiles, I would think that the recent fracas between PAF and IAF showed how useful BVR missiles are against a maneuvering fighter that is actively trying to break lock. At 300km ranges, you'd have to be sitting duck to let a AAM hit you.

Philip wrote:SCALP is inferior to BMos which is 3 times faster and Nirbhay when it is perfected for air launch has thrice the range though slightly slower. However , given the cost of these 3 missiles, the number in the inventory will be limited and used for v.high value targets only. ER PGMs and stand-off glide bombs would bd cheaper and more widely used.In a full blown spat with either Pak or China, penetrating enemy air space will be required for many ops.While the ALCM menu looks quite appetising the LR AAM requirement needs to be met.An LR AAM capable of downing Paki AEW aircraft, or even a sqd. of MIG-31s
equipped with 300+km R-33Es or in the future BMos-H equiv. to the 2000km hypersonic Kinzhal missile.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Jul 2019 23:23

And the MoD comedy continues....

India’s move to acquire 114 fifth generation combat jets impressive, but leaves IAF vulnerable for years to come
https://www.firstpost.com/india/indias- ... 45521.html

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Jul 2019 12:05

Rubbish poorly researched article. Full of flaws.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Jul 2019 14:52

Yup it states JF-17 shot down Mig 21. which itself is clearly not true, Mig 21 brought down by F-16 with AMraam.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 10 Jul 2019 19:22

Philip wrote:SCALP is inferior to BMos which is 3 times faster and Nirbhay when it is perfected for air launch has thrice the range though slightly slower.

No one is going to compare an AL subsonic cruise missile to an AL supersonic cruise missile. Those two will most likely be allotted completely different target sets and roles (hence why the Nirbhay is advancing despite the availability of Brahmos) especially given current form factors and carriage capacities. Secondly, what is its performance specifications for the AL Nirbhay? There is no magic wand that can be waived that would allow it to have significantly greater range than the SCALP within the same form factor and aircraft carriage requirements unless one considers it to have a couple of generations of propulsion improvements over SCALP. At best it will be comparable, within a comparable form factor, or longer ranged within a larger form factor.

Philip wrote:in the future BMos-H equiv. to the 2000km hypersonic Kinzhal missile.

Kinzhal is not a "hypersonic" weapon unless one categorizes an ALBM as such which would basically mean that any ground or air-launched BM that can fly above Mach 5 at any stage of its flight profile is considered a hypersonic weapon which would mean that there are thousands of hypersonic weapons in service around the world (And the C-17 would probably be in the top 2 platforms for most hypersonic missile launches from air). It would also mean that many nations have demonstrated dozens of combined hypersonic missile intercepts which would also be a fairly inconsequential statement given the challenges of intercepting a hypersonic glider and the stresses on the IADS that it places (completely different from intercepting a BM that can fly faster)

A true hypresonic glider (air launched or otherwise) would have the ability to sustain non ballistic flight above mach 5 flight for the majority of mission profile (like the avangard or US and Chinese gliders). An ALBM, though capable it may be, does not fit that category and nor are most claimed to do so.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Jul 2019 21:37

Aditya_V wrote:Yup it states JF-17 shot down Mig 21. which itself is clearly not true, Mig 21 brought down by F-16 with AMraam.

Sample this

These are a formidable pair and backed by the ongoing J-17 Thunder project, they provide China with a massive air advantage. In fact J17s could well have been loaned to Pakistan and used in the recent confrontation to down an Indian MiG 21. Pakistan is now making this aircraft at home in a joint venture with China that is up and running and already introducing upgrades as it progresses.

The guy doesn't know that PLAAF has 0 JF-17s or FC-1s (as the Chinese call it) in service, whereas PAF has close to 100. So where is the question of "loaning" any JF-17s to Pukes? And the PLAAF is pretty much focusing on stocking up on 4th gen fighters, with variants of Su-27s and Su-30s plus advanced J-10 variants. J-20 is entering service, but there are more critical 4th gen threats that need to be faced first. FC-31 is right now not in the picture really, at least not from the PLAAF's persepective. PLAN maybe, but even that will take a few years.

Also this whole "leasing" proposal is a farce. The glacial pace at which things progress at the MoD will mean that any such leasing RFP will run at the same pace as the 114 MRCA tender. So how will that help? Instead the one best option is to order "off-the-shelf", another 36 or 48 Rafales and call the whole MRCA thing off. And then focus on the MWF and AMCA wholeheartedly with no import distractions to pull the IAF's attention away. Now that the Modi Govt. 2.0 is in place with a massive majority, all the Congress BS that'll start about a scam will mean zilch when the next election is due.
/
Anyone and everyone pontificating on how things should be, without doing some basic research first. Who the heck is Bikram Vohra again?

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 11 Jul 2019 04:26

Why can't India go for a G2G deal with France for 114 Rafales with all MMRCA provisions about local production...???
If they can sign a deal about C295 with Boeing with local manufacturing by Tata, what is stopping them from doing a deal directly with France/Dassault...?

This will save valuable time...

(I'm not asking about requirement of no. of jets, 114 or only 36 jets... I'm asking about procedural issues...)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Jul 2019 07:27

Lakshman Saar, that is easier said than done. A repeat order of 36 - 54 Rafales would be an easier sell.

114 Rafales and the other OEMs will be up in arms. RaGa and Congress will get an asthma attack.

But most importantly - where is the money for 114 jets?

Screwdrivergiri of phoren aircraft is a SCAM. India will learn nothing. From initial kit assembly (SKD / CKD kits) to then an increase in local content...but that is as far as it will go. No engine tech. No GaN tech. Nothing of value will come.

LM was giving the marketing spin about how Turkey's aviation industry was transformed from farm land to an aviation power centre (Turkish Aerospace Industries) with the addition of a F-16 production line. And how the same transformation can happen to India if the GOI signed the deal to have Tata build F-21 (F-16 Block 70/72) in India. Today Turkey is stocking up on F-16 spares because of the impending sanctions that will come upon them because of the S-400 purchase.

Turkey Reportedly Hoarding Spare F-16 Parts As It Faces Sanctions Over S-400 Purchases
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... -purchases

And India will learn nothing of value either from the F-18 (with Mahindra-HAL) or Gripen E (with Adani) or MiG-35 (with HAL) or Su-35 (with HAL), Eurofighter (with who?) or even my philanthropic friends from La France (Dassault-Reliance).

Just buy 36 - 54 Rafales off the shelf. Tejas = Make/Made in India. Do not get caught up in the terms of Made in India vs Make in India. They are one and same. Just marketing gimmicks to fool the general public.

Import Dalals on BRF pounced on Make in India like hungry savages. Oh the marketing spin on BRF was something to see!

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 11 Jul 2019 08:16

Rakesh Sir,

I fully understand the issues with the imports.
I'm all for 36-54 Rafales in G2G deal...
-
Mine was a generic question considering that India will go ahead with this Tender...
Why to go through the whole cycle of RFI, RFP, Trails, Short-Listing, Negotiations and Signing of the Contract, when they can simply go for a G2G deal...?
My question is, are there any legal & procedural hurdles (not the RG attacks & other OEMs bickering) to sign a G2G deal...?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Jul 2019 08:43

Right now there is an open tender. To cancel that RFI and go directly with France/Dassault for a G2G will likely be a procedural violation. Vidur (or someone like him) can provide more clarity on this. Once a procedural violation has occurred, then the Congress and the OEMs will have something tangible to argue about.

What could pass muster is a follow on deal for 2 - 3 more Rafale squadrons (36 - 54 aircraft) via a G2G deal. The base infrastructure at Hasimara and Ambala can support at least two squadrons each. So it makes perfect sense to build upon that infrastructure.

Add the 18 Su-30MKIs that the GOI has requested from Russia + the 21 MiG-29s as well, the squadron shortage will largely be addressed. See below;

• 14 Su-30MKI squadrons (incl the 18 that the GOI has asked for)
• 3 Mirage 2000 squadrons
• 4 MiG-29 squadrons (incl the 21 that the GOI has asked for)
• 5 Rafale squadrons (2 on order + 3 more units)
• 5 Jaguar squadrons
• 2 Tejas Mk1 squadrons (40 aircraft)
• 4 Tejas Mk1A squadrons (83 aircraft)

The above comes to 37 squadrons. I would love to see three more Mk1/Mk1A squadrons (to bring the squadron strength up to 40) and also some used Mirage 2000-9s to bring No 9 Sqn to full strength.

But numbers alone do not tell the whole story. Capability also matters. You could have 10 MiG-21 squadrons or 5 Rafale squadrons. Which do you think is more potent?

Pilot training is equally important. You could have experienced MiG-21 drivers versus rookie Rafale drivers. Who do you think will win a knife fight? That question has already been answered by Air Commodore SS Tyagi (Retd) - a highly experienced MiG-21 pilot (who has flown all variants of the MiG-21 in IAF service, with the exception of Bison - who successfully got a pair of Mirage 2000s in his sights during a simulated air combat exercise in the 1980s. Both the M2K pilots were over confident and thought it was going to be a turkey shoot. Air Commodore Tyagi showed them otherwise.

So it is a combination of factors.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Jul 2019 09:08

HAL has been producing the Su-30MKI for the past 10 - 15 years, if I am not mistaken. Prior (or concurrently) to Rambha screwdrivergiri, HAL did assembly on the Jaguar, the Hawk, the MiG-27 and the MiG-21 (various variants) for experience.

But this is the reality in 2019 --->

Indian Air Force seeking to acquire 18 more Su-30MKI fighters from Russia
https://www.janes.com/article/89763/ind ... rom-russia

As per the above article, these 18 are coming in kit form with assembly in India. This is why screwdrivergiri of phoren combat aircraft is all smoke-and-mirrors. After screwdrivergiri of 114 Make in India fighters, we will still remain at Point A onlee. And by the way, HAL produced Su-30MKIs are more expensive than directly sourced Su-30MKIs from Russia. But nice to put in an annual MoD brochure about the achievements of HAL!

And to add confusion to the convoluted Make in India - Combat Aircraft plan, see this...

HAL Hands Over the 50th Raw Material Phase Engine of Su-30MKI to IAF
http://www.indiastrategic.in/2017/10/24 ... ki-to-iaf/

After reading the above (and please read it all!), then read this....

If HAL is making AL-31FP, then why are we facing difficulties in producing our indigenous engines for Tejas and AMCA?
https://www.quora.com/If-HAL-is-making- ... s-and-AMCA

The future of India's aviation industry lies in the Tejas. She may not have the finesse of the 7 OEMs in MMRCA 2.0, but is that the point?

I say again ---> Tejas = Make/Made in India. Tejas is the only solution. To quote Air Commodore KA Muthana (Retd), "She is *OUR* plane, *OUR* design, *OUR* software and we can do whatever we want with it."

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Jul 2019 09:14

I am going to cut-and-paste the last link in here. Enjoy

If HAL is making AL-31FP, then why are we facing difficulties in producing our indigenous engines for Tejas and AMCA?
https://www.quora.com/If-HAL-is-making- ... s-and-AMCA

The answer lies in the branch of Engineering.

3 Words: PRODUCTION, MANUFACTURING AND ASSEMBLY

To most people who are not mechanical or production engineers, all three are same. But actually all three have hell and heaven of difference. It is not HAL resposible for this confusion but our lack of knowledge that is responsible.

MANUFACTURING: It converts RAW MATERIALS TO FINAL PRODUCTS. Final product here means ready to sale or use.

PRODUCTION: It converts INPUT TO OUTPUT. Final product here MAY OR MAY NOT be ready to sell or use but just another component for further process.

Now the situation with AL-31 by HAL is;

The main raw material “Titanium” has to be imported from Russia. Also, despite the fact the engine is “PRODUCED” by HAL, it is not manufactured by them as many components have to be imported either due to Russian Federation’s military sales doesn’t allows this extent of flow of critical tech to any country or even if it is produced by HAL they are directly set up, start up by Russians and Indians only know to operate and maintain the machinery. HAL's AL-31 is PRODUCED and ASSEMBLED here. So is almost all new deals, be it new howitzers M-777 or K-9 or the new Punj Lloyd JV for rifles. Rafales are only assembled in India. But Tejas, Rudra, Dhruv all missiles and radars are MANUFACTURED in India. Only manufacturing gives you expertise to develop not PRODUCTION. It doesn’t matter how advanced systems you PRODUCE.

Moreover you can’t neither blame Russia nor HAL for this. Nobody will ever sell core technologies to any country just for sake of few hundred pieces. A technology which has made them aerospace giants today. Also, we here ask for ToT from other nations many Indian blog fanboys have already started crying against ToT to any other country if we start selling our missiles or radars to them. This is hypocrisy and doesn't give good image about India.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 11 Jul 2019 18:01

^ Regarding the IAF attitude to imports, was talking to an old grey haired uncleji recently:

Apparently, IAF not happy with the Tejas.....because it's budget goes for a toss.

Sunk costs are 1.5 times a Su-30 MKI. Twin engined 123 kN vs 86 KN single engine. 4 ton bomb load, 1800 km range vs 14 ton, 5500 km range. No comparison really.

( Short term strategy is flog the Mig 21 some more, buy more Su 30 than Tejas and hold out for Rafale.)

The uncleji also talked abt engine overhaul and replacement. The Al 31 replacement can be ordered from BRD level to HAL, sign a few sheets of paper and it's done.
The F 404 has to be sanctioned by AHQ and MOD. So Tejas downtime is actually more.

Ditto for every connector, actuator, screw on LCA FBW system.

Ditto for every circuit, wiring harness and sensor array on the radar.

I also asked abt low focus on force multipliers like AEW aircraft , IL 76 tankers , DRDO blimps,C-130 tanker conversions, etc.

(Some time back, I had posted info that 1 tanker for 6-8 strike aircraft was a good ratio in USAF)

The uncleji said that the jocks getting promotion are all from fighter stream, so high focus only on those aircraft , other types are considered necessary evils, not prioritised.

The decision makers are more concerned abt ensuring better promotion prospects after 36 years of service than the national interest.

The main failure is not the IAF or HAL, but the Modi govt. for , I quote, "turning a blind eye to real problems, offering only lip sympathy."

The analogy used by him was there was shortage of heavy transports from 2006 to 2011, as IL 76 fleet was floundering. But media never highlighted this, instead only talk abt the 42 squadrons in 2 front war.

AHQ was subsequently given C-17 planes, and are planning an encore with the Rafale.

Tejas is only meant for lip sympathy, a necessary evil.

Pls compare the above views to our feverent wishes in BRF for
more Tejas, more desi force multipliers like AEW and restrict imports, at least of Mig 29 type craft.
( Pakistan import AEW from Sweden and have 4 , plus 4 IL 76 converted tankers. We build AEW in India, and have 3 plus 6 Midas tankers.)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jul 2019 18:14

its chicken egg problem. if IAF gives a commitment and decades long funding pipe for 250 Tejas , all of that BRD stuff and more will happen.
GE or Elta will have no issues in supply engines and radar spares and kits and setting up depots here.

with 36 rafale who are they fooling about spares and upgrade pipeline. all of their budget will go in maalish and paalish of their new pet.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Jul 2019 19:40

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ Regarding the IAF attitude to imports...

Thank you for posting these views. I will reply soon. I have moved both posts to this thread, as it is more relevant in here.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Jul 2019 19:56

Rakesh wrote:Pilot training is equally important. You could have experienced MiG-21 drivers versus rookie Rafale drivers. Who do you think will win a knife fight? That question has already been answered by Air Commodore SS Tyagi (Retd) - a highly experienced MiG-21 pilot (who has flown all variants of the MiG-21 in IAF service, with the exception of Bison - who successfully got a pair of Mirage 2000s in his sights during a simulated air combat exercise in the 1980s. Both the M2K pilots were over confident and thought it was going to be a turkey shoot. Air Commodore Tyagi showed them otherwise.

Sorry to digress from topic, but the IAF's pilot training, cockpit discipline and tenacity was clearly evident in Balakot when in a show of orgasmic euphoria (Pakistan Zindabad!!!), their F-16s launched a salvo of AIM-120 AMRAAMs in the desperate hope of shooting down a few IAF fighters. We all know how that turned out.

And to then take on a F-16D Block 52 - in a MiG-21 Bison - and successfully shoot it down calls for brass balls which Wing Commander Varthaman definitely has. And IAF pilots are well known for this. Squadron Leader AB Devayya - flying a subsonic Mystere in the 1965 War - successfully shot down a supersonic F-104 Starfighter of the Pakistan Air Force. Tragically he lost his life in the process, but tenacity and dogged determination is something that is definitely present in IAF pilots.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 11 Jul 2019 20:01

If the IAF considers the SU-30MKI to be so cost effective compared to the Tejas, why don’t they just order 200 more of them, instead of looking for the MRCA?

It is only a rhetorical question

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Jul 2019 00:00

dinesh_kimar wrote: Apparently, IAF not happy with the Tejas.....because it's budget goes for a toss.

Sunk costs are 1.5 times a Su-30 MKI. Twin engined 123 kN vs 86 KN single engine. 4 ton bomb load, 1800 km range vs 14 ton, 5500 km range. No comparison really.

Just want to address this nonsense before someone picks up numbers from here and starts posting on Twitter. The Su-30MKI does not have a 14 tonne bomb load. It's max external payload is 8.1 metric tonnes. I just know someone is going to do a 4 vs 14 tonne comparison and claim LCA is soooo inferior onlee.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 12 Jul 2019 02:15

IAF/HAL should team up with SAAB or Dassault to produce the next fighter on equal terms. It will take another 15 years, but at the end India will at least have the in depth understanding of building an Fighter.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 12 Jul 2019 04:48

Rishirishi wrote:IAF/HAL should team up with SAAB or Dassault to produce the next fighter on equal terms. It will take another 15 years, but at the end India will at least have the in depth understanding of building an Fighter.

When SAAB and Dassault themselves are going with other countries to design and develop the next generation fighter jet aircrafts, how much learning do you think HAL can get if they join the already planned team? By the time these 6th generation fighter jets come to production, we will be a 20trillion economy that still needs handholding to design and build fighter jets.
I would rather have HAL form of consortium of Indian companies and go ahead with R&D for next Gen fighter jets.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Jul 2019 10:36

I have to say that I was extremely disappointed when the IAF did not order more Tejas mk1 at foc. This is truly abysmal.

I was similarly disappointed with HAL when they used the mk1A, notice that it really doesn't address the supposed issue the Iaf complained about in the first place - power, as a ruse to buy time.

The ADA, not to be outdone, sunk the last nail into my hopes by repeating the same failed formula... Turning to sanction prone, skinny engines and a larger frame in the guise of a MWF....

Phuck it. Let the imports, screwdrivergiri, and science projects continue.

Sorry about the rnd.....

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 12 Jul 2019 11:48

Rakesh wrote:Right now there is an open tender. To cancel that RFI and go directly with France/Dassault for a G2G will likely be a procedural violation. Vidur (or someone like him) can provide more clarity on this. Once a procedural violation has occurred, then the Congress and the OEMs will have something tangible to argue about.

What could pass muster is a follow on deal for 2 - 3 more Rafale squadrons (36 - 54 aircraft) via a G2G deal. The base infrastructure at Hasimara and Ambala can support at least two squadrons each. So it makes perfect sense to build upon that infrastructure.

Add the 18 Su-30MKIs that the GOI has requested from Russia + the 21 MiG-29s as well, the squadron shortage will largely be addressed. See below;

• 14 Su-30MKI squadrons (incl the 18 that the GOI has asked for)
• 3 Mirage 2000 squadrons
• 4 MiG-29 squadrons (incl the 21 that the GOI has asked for)
• 5 Rafale squadrons (2 on order + 3 more units)
• 5 Jaguar squadrons
• 2 Tejas Mk1 squadrons (40 aircraft)
• 4 Tejas Mk1A squadrons (83 aircraft)

The above comes to 37 squadrons. I would love to see three more Mk1/Mk1A squadrons (to bring the squadron strength up to 40) and also some used Mirage 2000-9s to bring No 9 Sqn to full strength.

From what I have read, I doubt IAF would order more Mk1/Mk1A...
Seeing the procurement planning of IAF, my assumption is that they're planning to have a force structure similar to USAF; Combination of Heavy Weight Fighter/Strike Aircraft F15 forming backbone and huge no. of Multi Role Medium Weight F16s forming the muscle...

If that is what they're planning, currently Su30 MKIs is our Heavy Weight backbone...
Currently, we do not have sufficient no. of Medium Weight Fighters... We have only 3 squadrons of MIG 29 and 2.5 Squadrons of M2k...
The 5 squadrons of Jaguars are yet to be upgraded for Multirole capabilities... And we will be getting 2 squadrons of Rafale & 1 squadron of MIG 21 only...
As much as we in BRF want Tejas Mk1/1A to form the bulk of IAF fleet, I don't think IAF wants it... Medium Weight Fighters with decent range and payload is what IAF wants...

Maintaining Technological edge over adversaries is also important... IAF wants Rafale mainly to maintain this Technological advantage over PAF and PLAF...
-
My guess is, IAF is envisaging it's Fleet on the following lines:-
1) 1/3rd squadrons (14) of Heavy Weight Fighters, Su30 MKIs
2) 2/3rd squadrons (28) of Medium Weight Fighters
-
That is why, they said that they won't be buying more Su30 MKIs...
The whole debate is about filling up the 28 squadrons of Medium Weight Fighters...
IAF would ideally want these 28 squadrons to be filled by
1) 8 squadrons of Rafale (2) & MMRCA 2.0 (6)
2) 20 squadrons of MWF & AMCA
-
But they bought 2 squadrons of Mk1 and will be buying 4 squadrons of Mk1A which are Light Weight Fighters... Tejas Mk1/1A due to its relatively limited range (and for being costlier than expected) may not be preferred... Hence, I don't think they'd buy more...
Also, IAF would need to buy atleast 2-3 more squadrons of Rafales... Stopping at 2 squadrons is not a good thing...
-
Personally, my preferred choices will be as follows:-
1) Buy 2-3 more squadrons of Rafales in a G2G deal... Scrap MMRCA 2.0 at a later date... Develop MWF on time...
2) Fast track MMRCA 2.0 and buy 6 squadrons of Rafales... Develop MWF on time...
3) Buy 2-3 more squadrons of Rafales in a G2G deal... Keep dragging MMRCA 2.0 for few more years as a back up plan for MWF... If MWF is not developed on time, then buy 6 squadrons of a cheaper jet like MIG35 to fill in the numbers...

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jul 2019 14:58

nachiket wrote:
dinesh_kimar wrote: Apparently, IAF not happy with the Tejas.....because it's budget goes for a toss.

Sunk costs are 1.5 times a Su-30 MKI. Twin engined 123 kN vs 86 KN single engine. 4 ton bomb load, 1800 km range vs 14 ton, 5500 km range. No comparison really.
Just want to address this nonsense before someone picks up numbers from here and starts posting on Twitter. The Su-30MKI does not have a 14 tonne bomb load. It's max external payload is 8.1 metric tonnes. I just know someone is going to do a 4 vs 14 tonne comparison and claim LCA is soooo inferior onlee.

Ask him how much does it cost to fly a Su-30MKI an hour vs LCA Tejas Mk.1?

Different optimal ways to use them effectively. Look at how the MiG-21Bison (a LCA) was used post-Balakot to shoot down a F-16 (a MCA). LCAs are designed to be placed near the border areas acting as the first line of quick-reaction defense. They are much more affordable when considering their unit price and operating costs. If the IAF wants to get to its 42 squadrons without breaking the GoI bank, then a significant quantities would need to be LCA Tejas.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 12 Jul 2019 17:18

If IAF is thinking of 30-35 sqdn force then the us style thinking is fine..but given that we dont have really far from india requirements mostly from our bases from India, it would make sense to have a large light fighter force as well. the force had around good no. of mig 21s-23 27s along with mirages and jags. Their replacement by a standardized tejas platform is better. Till the time we have pakistan as the threat, it seems a lot of sense to invest in tejas.Even for future neighbourhood threats, e.g, BD, SL maldives, myanmar (just in case they act weird along with china) tejas mk1 and mk1a can pack a punch in large numbers. At this stage we need to go for quantity rather than the rafale/western f22sque quality. but then i am just a civvie what do i know?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jul 2019 21:11

The IAF was reluctantly made to acquire LCA Mk-1 which was supposedly below the expected performance parameters which improved MK-1A and Mk-2s will meet.
80 1As are supposedly expected after the first 40 LCAs are delivered.Equipping them with better AAMs appears to be the on- going exercise.What is a prime need though are the force multipliers, tankers and more AWACS and AEW aircraft.I deally the improved IL-78s on the new platform with improved engines would be the best route.But the tanker req. has twice been deferred over cost of western tankers which the IAF want instead.The DM should take a swift decision on tankers as our shorter- ranged MIG-21s and LCAs will be able to stay in the air longer on sorties.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jul 2019 03:30

Hoping a news article comes out on this...

https://twitter.com/raghukanakuppe/stat ... 2857370625 ---> IAF Pilots Lukewarm Towards F-21. India is finalising single largest defence purchase Indian Air Force pilots on Tuesday examined and tested the simulator of the F-21 fighter jet Cockpit Demonstration Simulator (CDS). The experience received was mixed good and 'mediocre'.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jul 2019 03:31

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/1151394730380427264 ---> Indian Air Force fighter pilots, including one of India’s first female pilots in this stream, examined and tested a cockpit simulator of the F-21 fighter aircraft of American aerospace giant, Lockheed Martin.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jul 2019 03:33

That is not an IAF pilot testing the simulator, but rather Lockheed Martin's VP of Business Development, Mr Vivek Lall.

https://twitter.com/vijayku50114809/sta ... 5411823617 ---> IAF pilots with India's first female fighter pilot test F-21 simulator - Economic Times.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jul 2019 03:37

https://twitter.com/LMIndiaNews/status/ ... 5724848129 ---> F-21 provides unmatched opportunities for Indian companies of all sizes & suppliers across India, to establish business relationships with us & other industry leaders in the US & around the globe, says Kurt G. Knust, Director, Lockheed Martin Aeronautics.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Jul 2019 19:54

F-21.Oversell of an old hag with inches of makeup!

Putin very recently visited a base escorted by 6 SU-57s shortly before meeting Pompeo, MIG-31 carrying the " hypersonic 2000km range missile" inspecting it and other aircraft.

From all recent info, this contest will take a few years to find a winner and likd the Rafale more time in price negotiations before the deal is sealed and deliveries arrive 5 to 7 years from now at the earliest.All for 4yh-gen expensive birds being replaced by 5th- gen aircraft and development of the next gen. of 6th- gen birds.

The most cost-effective way to augment and increase capability for ghe IAF is for extra acquisitions of aircraft in service, upgrafes to carry improved sensors and weaponry.The 4 types to be increased in number are the
MKIs, MIG-29/35s,Rafales and Tejas.Jag upgrades will add to capability.Equipped with newer engones, AESA radars, cutting edge PGMs and AAMs, the IAF can junk this laborious and self- defeating exercise in acquiring aging prima-donnas not in service with the IAF plus setting up new infrastructure at huge cost .The two Yanqui birds will fast become museum pieces and the very expensive F-35 is suspected by the US itself as being detectable by S-400 radars.

The only new bird to be considered is the SU-57 , giving us a top-end stealth fighter .There is also some talk of a
Yak-130 requirement for trg. plus GA/ CS capability.The IAF chief just flew the bird in Russia.

kit · Post by **kit** » 19 Jul 2019 20:51

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 254376.cms

Another pilot, however, said that his experience of the CDS was ‘ok’. “We have the same technology, as far as simulators are concerned. What they have is old,” he said.

shame LM !! .. is that all the worlds biggest defence contractor has to offer

also to compare with the rave reviews Tejas got !!

i hope everyone there got their fill of chai/biskoot at LMs expense