Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Jul 2019 10:24

tsarkar wrote:
Kartik wrote:Mirage-2000 I of No.7 Battle Axes squadron with the Spice-2000 and R-73E CCMs.
That’s Matra Magic 2 missile and the aircraft is H model. The frequent mis-identification of Magic 2 as R-73 has led to the rumour of Russian missiles on IAF Mirages.

Kartik wrote:Mirage-2000 I of the No.1 Tigers squadron with the MICA missile mounted on fuselage pylons
This is a Super 530D missile and the aircraft is older H Model. The missile is broader than a MICA.

Upgraded I model has been delivered only to No 9 Squadron Wolfpack.

Kartik and Karan M are correct. The Mirage 2000 does indeed carry the R-73E missile.

Recent news reports state that one *WHOLE* squadron has been converted from the H variant to the upgraded I variant. So if No 9 Wolfpacks Sqn has indeed converted, that is good news because No 1 Tigers Sqn (picture confirmation thanks to Kartik) and No 7 Battle Axes Sqn (picture confirmation below) also operate upgraded Mirage 2000s. The easiest way to differentiate from a H variant and an I variant is the colour of the radome. Please see below...

Mirage 2000H (Black Radome)

Picture Link ---> https://www.airliners.net/photo/India-A ... R9/wGPpDVW

Mirage 2000I (Grey Radome)

Picture Link ---> https://www.airliners.net/photo/India-A ... 2Bk9Ppo%3D

=======================================================

A second way to differentiate a H variant from an I variant, is on the rudder right behind the vertical tail. One can actually see the markings - either Mirage 2000H or Mirage 2000I. If you look at the pictures below, you can see the lettering.

Mirage 2000H

Picture Link ---> https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7584110

Mirage 2000I
(One can clearly see the lettering on the rudder)
(The colour of the Radome Cover is BLACK)
(KF141 is carrying a pair of MICA missiles)

Picture Link ---> https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9262856

=======================================================

A third way to differentiate a H variant from an I variant, is the radar. The Mirage 2000H uses the older RDM radar, while the Mirage 2000I uses the upgraded RDY radar. In the second image that Kartik posted, you can see (but barely) the RDY lettering right under the refuelling probe. If you see a picture of a Mirage 2000 with the word RDY in that location, 100% that is an upgraded Mirage 2000. See better resolution images below.

RDM --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_Dop ... tifunction

RDY ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_Doppler_Multitarget

Mirage 2000I
(notice the RDY lettering directly above the serial number of KF110)
(this aircraft belongs to No 7 Battle Axes Sqn)

Picture Link ---> https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8771059

Mirage 2000H
(notice the absence of the RDM lettering)

Picture Link ---> http://www.airpics.net/photo/KF107-Dass ... ce/24183/L

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 09 Jul 2019 17:47

Any public info on what variants of the R77 AND R73 we got this time from Russia ($800 million, 800 missiles). I hope they are latest/greatest variants.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Jul 2019 18:34

From open source info these were replacements for ones who had their operational life over, last month we tested the lated SD, BD, MD variants from Vympel. I dont think they have been ordered.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Jul 2019 12:52

tsarkar wrote:
Kartik wrote:Mirage-2000 I of No.7 Battle Axes squadron with the Spice-2000 and R-73E CCMs.
That’s Matra Magic 2 missile and the aircraft is H model. The frequent mis-identification of Magic 2 as R-73 has led to the rumour of Russian missiles on IAF Mirages.

Kartik wrote:Mirage-2000 I of the No.1 Tigers squadron with the MICA missile mounted on fuselage pylons
This is a Super 530D missile and the aircraft is older H Model. The missile is broader than a MICA.

Upgraded I model has been delivered only to No 9 Squadron Wolfpack.

Wrong. The Mirages that sport the light gray radome are all upgraded to the I standard. H models sported the black radome. And it is R-73E not the Magic II.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Jul 2019 15:02

So what is the strength of the IAF now
1) SU 30 - 12 Squadrons -254-8=246 aircraft
2) M-2000- 3 squadrons -48 aircraft
3) Mig 29 - 3 squadrons -69 aircraft
4) Jaguar-5 squadrons -115 aircraft
5) Mig 21 Bison - 4 squadrons -100 aircraft(5 squadrons 1 being number plated this year)
6) Mig 27 - 1 sqaudron -22 aircraft ( 2 squadrons 1 being number plated this year)
7) LCA Tejas - 1 squadron - 16 aircraft plus 2 LSP trainers
~ 620 combat aircraft and 500 available for combat

Near future acquisitions over the next few years- say 2022
1) Mig 29 -21 Aircraft
2) Su-30 -36 aircraft
3) Rafale 3R-36 aircraft
4) LCA Tejas MK1-16
5) LCA trainers -18 aircraft
6) LCA MK1A?

Plus 45 Mig 29 navy with around 25 available for combat.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 10 Jul 2019 20:32

might be a very stupid question, what are the chances of getting a tanker during conflict period from say France or USA in a refueling Tanker as a service? I see that more likely in a war with China as compared to pakistan. Pardon if it is a very stupid question.
As usual we will be paying an arm and length for our tardy acquisition program. Even in a war with pakistan, if we get this from say US or france, it would put a spanner in paki war plans.That said i do understand why would us, russia or france lease it to us.
That said we have a precedence of leasing nuclear sub, a flying tanker is a relatively less guarded tech compared to that. Would be good to hear others thoughts

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 10 Jul 2019 21:30

Should explore tanker conversion kits for commercial aircraft. Chances of getting a tanker from France during conflict with Pakistan very, very, low. No one will take sides especially France with a sizeable Muslim population.

Why does India survive by begging for its defense needs? Build own tanker conversion kits and take over commercial aircraft during war. I

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jul 2019 22:08

Vivek K speaks from wisdom. Can't count on any one during war.

Need to get tanker conversion kits for C-130 which I know are available.

Arjun Pandit we have not fully understood even 1965 war and the constraints it was fought under.

Big shadow of US looms over everything.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Jul 2019 22:47

Hmmm what about our IL78 which the IAF operates and practices with in all excercises?. Why suddenly only Airbus Boing tanker suddenly in wartime?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 10 Jul 2019 23:20

During Libya, tanker support was predominantly American. Europe doesn't have enough to spare. Will 1/2 be enough of a help during a conflict with China? Will they aid against China?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Jul 2019 00:20

Karan M wrote:That's likely a R73E. Mirages received that modification quite a while back. It comes with the R73E adapter as well. Magics are most likely withdrawn from service, one of the key reasons for ASRAAM for Jaguars.

IAF's French Mirages Fly With Russian Missiles, Thanks To Israeli 'Jugaad'

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/iafs-fr ... ad-2067318

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Jul 2019 00:29

That article soured my mood for the day - French fighters mated to Israeli hardware by Israeli Engineers! What’s there to be proud of?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Jul 2019 00:35

Thanks Rakesh.

I believe this was a project led in 3 parts.

First, we hired a Brit consultancy to do a lot of the basic simulation and planning work. Today, this is done by NAL, HAL and companies like Zeus Numerix for the IAF.

Second, the IAF's own inhouse SDI worked to integrate the missile with the onboard mission avionics of the Mirage 2000, including its radar. Plus its own guys would have physically done the structural work, adding the R73E pylon adapter to the Mirage 2000.

Third, the Israelis helped in integrating the DASH helmet to the Mirage 2000 avionics and the helmet to talk to the missile and vice versa.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Jul 2019 00:35

Aditya_V wrote:S
5) Mig 21 Bison - 4 squadrons -100 aircraft(5 squadrons 1 being number plated this year)

IAF is decommissioning Bisons? I missed this bit of news. Which Squadron is being numberplated?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Jul 2019 00:40

The NDTV article is the first I have seen claiming that our upgraded Mirages will get the DASH. Since it is Vishnu, I will believe him. I had assumed till now that the upgrade would include the Thales Topsight HMS. I am a bit confused by the timeline. The article leads me to believe that the DASH was integrated before the upgrade. Which would make sense since the LCA fields the same DASH-R-73 combo and the integration must have already been done on that and should not have been a challenge if made later on the M2k.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 11 Jul 2019 00:54

ramana wrote:Vivek K speaks from wisdom. Can't count on any one during war.

the question is, we dont hear much from IAF about this. They may be talking to govt discretely. But this govt has been in for 5+ years, with limited defence budget and hostile environemnt what are our plans/planes?

ramana wrote:Need to get tanker conversion kits for C-130 which I know are available.

Havent heard anything apart from the DTTI fuljhadi which has exhausted long back.

ramana wrote:Arjun Pandit we have not fully understood even 1965 war and the constraints it was fought under.

Big shadow of US looms over everything.

True, a lot of info is probably not out either. May not be best forum for this. Situation around sir creek, death of shastriji are big mysteries. I think you talked about it earlier and separately (not exactly in the same words) but it was the endgame for India. India survived and probably came shining is a different story altogether. More suited for other threads.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 11 Jul 2019 00:57

Aditya_V wrote: Hmmm what about our IL78 which the IAF operates and practices with in all excercises?. Why suddenly only Airbus Boing tanker suddenly in wartime?

WIki tells we have 7 only.
OT Anyone knows how did pakis managed to get 4 IL 78 after 2009 CSF? Did India not protest against it to Russia?

PS: Ukrainain spare stocks...feel happy for ukranians crimean fate

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 11 Jul 2019 01:44

Vivek K wrote:Why does India survive by begging for its defense needs? Build own tanker conversion kits and take over commercial aircraft during war. I

Because the folks doing the begging are not the decision makers? Relatively simple and inexpensive measures to arrest defence gaps are simply not a part of the Indian mindset - neither the users, who will do it only post requirement, nor the developers who will continue to work on science projects, and definitely not the mod, which will sit smugly with thumbs up their backsides.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Jul 2019 03:39

Well if the situation is that bad then prepare to be overwhelmed by the Chinese! It is only the courage, bravery and sacrifices of the men of the forces that hasn’t happened yet.

The political class thinks India can can be a power buying imported junk (some of high lies rusting in depots for want of spares, others are obsolete). There is unfortunately no shortcut to playing in the big league. Can’t sit on someone’s shoulders and pretend to be tall.

Defense needs cannot be a source of election funding! We have hardly any refuellers and we delayed LCA induction for IFR probe addition! That wasn’t a political decision! It came down from the IAF.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Jul 2019 03:47

nachiket wrote:The NDTV article is the first I have seen claiming that our upgraded Mirages will get the DASH. Since it is Vishnu, I will believe him. I had assumed till now that the upgrade would include the Thales Topsight HMS. I am a bit confused by the timeline. The article leads me to believe that the DASH was integrated before the upgrade. Which would make sense since the LCA fields the same DASH-R-73 combo and the integration must have already been done on that and should not have been a challenge if made later on the M2k.

They have the DASH already. And if we see the timeline, it might be well when IAF asked for R73E integration on the Tejas as well.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 11 Jul 2019 04:48

Vivek K wrote:Well if the situation is that bad then prepare to be overwhelmed by the Chinese! It is only the courage, bravery and sacrifices of the men of the forces that hasn’t happened yet.

Yes, it's happened before.

The political class thinks India can can be a power buying imported junk (some of high lies rusting in depots for want of spares, others are obsolete). There is unfortunately no shortcut to playing in the big league. Can’t sit on someone’s shoulders and pretend to be tall.

Defense needs cannot be a source of election funding! We have hardly any refuellers and we delayed LCA induction for IFR probe addition! That wasn’t a political decision! It came down from the IAF.

Perhaps I'm being naively optimistic but I think this political leadership is the best India has had since Independence. It's idealism is for once based in values that are more Indian. More importantly, I think the terribly debilitating effect of the colonial mindset is slowly but surely coming to an end. A change in attitude will very quickly realize into a change in the outward conditions. In the meanwhile, some imports will like happen of because of sheer need, but these will taper off. Until then stalwarts like you will have to grit your teeth. The next decade is crucial.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Jul 2019 04:57

Boss - even a single import is suicidal! One batch of 36 Rafales and then some will say LCA is light, cannot carry meteor, cannot beat AMRAAM! So let’s get 36 more! Oh the MiG 21s are retiring - let’s buy 21 29s and then another 21 will turn up.

India is a nation addicted to imports for the bribes and election funding. This is a curse on Indian society. Armed forces hide the flaws in the purchases to create a deterrent for the enemy. And so it goes on!

BJP will become a Congress in time with unquestioned authority!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Jul 2019 05:00

Vivek, do not bring politics into this thread. You are already pushing the limits with your constant whining here. Consider this an unofficial warning.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Jul 2019 06:01

So speaking against imports = whining? Please go ahead and ban. It is pointless to post when you have only people with their biases either towards western or Russian hardware.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Jul 2019 07:28

Vivek, take it easy man! When a mod asks you to chill, please do it.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 11 Jul 2019 10:21

Karan M wrote:That's likely a R73E. Mirages received that modification quite a while back. It comes with the R73E adapter as well. Magics are most likely withdrawn from service, one of the key reasons for ASRAAM for Jaguars.

Karan if you look at KF110 adjacent its definitely a Magic 2
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 7.jpg.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 3.jpg.html

Similarly R-73E has big rear fins while the Magic 2 has shorter rear fins
R-73E - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AA-1 ... issile.PNG
Magic 2 0 https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Gall ... b.jpg.html

Similarly MICA has long vertical strakes just after the radome https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/mica/ that Super 530D doesnt http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... d.jpg.html

Thanks to Kartik and Rakesh for point out the lettering and radome colour. Possibly they are upgraded aircraft outfitted with the older missiles. I based my comments based on the missile loadout.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 11 Jul 2019 11:48

tsarkar wrote:
Karan M wrote:That's likely a R73E. Mirages received that modification quite a while back. It comes with the R73E adapter as well. Magics are most likely withdrawn from service, one of the key reasons for ASRAAM for Jaguars.
Karan if you look at KF110 adjacent its definitely a Magic 2
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 7.jpg.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 3.jpg.html

Similarly R-73E has big rear fins while the Magic 2 has shorter rear fins
R-73E - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AA-1 ... issile.PNG
Magic 2 0 https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Gall ... b.jpg.html

Similarly MICA has long vertical strakes just after the radome https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/mica/ that Super 530D doesnt http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... d.jpg.html

Thanks to Kartik and Rakesh for point out the lettering and radome colour. Possibly they are upgraded aircraft outfitted with the older missiles. I based my comments based on the missile loadout.

the Missile in this picture is definitely a R-73, please look at the difference with the missile on the aircraft in the background
and the launcher carrying the missile also a Vympel launcher and is lot different from the Magic 2 launcher from your above link

Will · Post by **Will** » 11 Jul 2019 20:22

---Deleted----

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Jul 2019 20:34

Will, I sent you en email. Please check.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jul 2019 21:41

The way it looks like IAF will be in long run
Su-30MKI 300 planes
Tejas about 123+200
Rafale will be 100
Meanwhile the Jags and M2Ks and MiG-29 UPGs will make up the strength as the fleet is transformed.
Tejas in its Mk1A and Mk2 versions will do the bulk of the job done by Migs and Jags.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jul 2019 21:49

Philip, The unstable design makes it iffy to hand over the mfg to some other entity.
If things go wrong both will point fingers at each other and IAF will be the loser.

So may be private entity makes the fuselage, wings and even assembly but design cognizance should still be HAL.

Rohit, There could be another factor.
Kurt Tank had a buddy (Brandner?) who was in Egypt and making a turbojet engine.
Its possible that total self reliance would have tanked that project.
The irony is that project went under anyway.

mody · Post by **mody** » 13 Jul 2019 12:46

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsindi ... spartanntp

Further purchase of Pilatus ruled out. The sad part is the news quotes, unnamed sources as saying a new global RFP will be issued and a government to government deal will be explored and that the HTT-40 in its 'Current Form', is not suitable for the IAF!!
Have absolutely no idea why the IAF is dead set against the HTT-40. These so called sources, who mostly are used to discussing the batting form of cricketers or the condition of railway platForms, are talking about the 'Form' of HTT-40. In fact the form of the aircraft is going to remain the same, no matter what. Only few additional tests to prove the spin characteristics is what is pending.
From some previous reports by Shukla, it was mentioned that the recent spin tests were half way there, but IAF was waiting for the complete spin tests to be finished before issueing the RFP.
Only in out country, we would issue a global RFP for a product that we are developing ourselves and is close to completion. We will have the HTT-40 compete with other foreign trainers and then complain that the price is high, as the development and testing costs for the aircraft has to be amortized over the order. Won't be surprised, if initially the requirement for HTT-40 is also issued only for 38 aircrafts, instead of the full requirement of 106 aircrafts. All the usual voices will then complain about the high cost of acquiring the 38 HTT-40 planes, as compared to imports and about the high import content of the planes, like the engines, the ejection seat etc. etc.
Truly pathetic situation.

chola · Post by **chola** » 13 Jul 2019 17:35

^^^ I already knew that this will happen. I saw articles in the beginning of the year that the IAF was getting cold feet on the HTT-40.

I don't blame the IAF for getting the best for its men.

But the GOI must make it a priority for the country's MIC and dictate purchases irregardless of price and even performance.

Make in India cannot be forced to compete with the arms industries of the goras with literally hundreds of years of experience and sunk costs while we are just starting out. We will lose every time to Amreekis, French, Russians unless we are given time to mature.

chola · Post by **chola** » 13 Jul 2019 17:44

This is back in January:

https://wap.business-standard.com/artic ... 305_1.html

In a coup for indigenisation, the Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (HTT-40) basic trainer aircraft, designed and built by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), has outperformed Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) demanding specifications. The final qualifications — stall and spin tests — are proceeding well. HAL expects full certification by June.

However, even as HAL seeks a green light for manufacturing the HTT-40, the IAF is pressing for buying 38 more Pilatus PC-7 Mark II basic trainers from Switzerland, to supplement the 75 it already operates. This would mean building fewer Indian trainers.

There has always been a contest between the Indian and Swiss trainers.

Why should there be a contest at all? It had ALREADY OUTPERFORMED the IAF's SPECS!!!

We can't buy a damn basic trainer from ourselves without someone pushing some phoren import.

Again, I don't blame the IAF. It is not their job. Building the nation's capacity is the duty of the MOD and the GOI they have to make the decision to buy locally and set aside funds for the purchases.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 13 Jul 2019 17:54

^^^*^Wrong! It IS the duty of IAF to protect even the national economy AND on top of that domestic supplies are typically cheap and plentiful!

So wanting the Pilatus is........

HAL needs to hire a pvt firm for sales and allow business development expenses to cater to needs of specific people. Maybe that could help in securing release of their payments!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jul 2019 23:57

Are you suggesting HAL hire an arms peddler to sell to services?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jul 2019 00:00

Chola, IAF has been advised to firget about Pilatus. In response unnamed official not officer said HTT did not pass all the tests. And is seeking a tender for 35 planes.

I don't see why they can't accept HTTafter it passes all tests.
Why insistence on import.

chola · Post by **chola** » 14 Jul 2019 02:15

ramana wrote:Chola, IAF has been advised to firget about Pilatus. In response unnamed official not officer said HTT did not pass all the tests. And is seeking a tender for 35 planes.

I don't see why they can't accept HTTafter it passes all tests.
Why insistence on import.

Ramana ji, unless Shukla was mis-informed the HTT-40 had EXCEEDED the IAF's stringent specs up to that point in January and yet the IAF was already looking at the Pilatus. I had a sinking feeling then. But at least it was maybe reduction of the 106 order with 35 of the planes going to the Swiss.

But if they go ahead with the RFP then I would imagine the entire proposed HTT-40 order is in jeopardy. Worse than I had imagine even though I was waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Anyways, these are my thoughts:
1)The IAF is professional. They will compare everything to the phoren gear they have and judge accordingly. We already know from the LCA and MKI that HAL's stuff is not necessarily cheaper.

2) If the IAF feels its budget is impacted the same way whether the equipment is phoren or Indian then they will go with the better or more cost effective one. With phoren sellers having, as I noted earlier, decades more experience and reputation and the IAF being used to first rate imports then the deck is stacked against the domestic firms. Yes, I know all procurement goes through MOD and MOF but the pool of money is static and so is the IAF's share of it.

3) Therefore it is incumbent for the GOI to DICTATE purchases of local products if they are to have a chance. We cannot hope to be better than established gora products when we are just starting up in the business. Obviously, the IAF will not be happy if forced to pay for things it thinks are not up to par with the goras.

4) A better solution and one that would make the IAF happier to use indigenous equipment is a special funding pool reserved for local purchases. Basically a subsidy. For example, if the IAF buys Pilatus they pay the full price from their share of the budget. But if they buy the HTT-40, the IAF/MOD can draw from the special fund so that even if the HTT-40 was more expensive, the subsidy means the IAF will pay far less or maybe nothing at all.

If IAF is paying $5M from its budget for each Pilatus but say only $1M for HAL's trainer then the domestic product has better than even odds.

Countries all over the world use subsidies to support key local industries. Aviation manufacturing is a key industry for us so we have to use this tool.

If the GOI is footing most of the bill for HTT-40, Tejas or even Arjun then I guarantee you the military will buy in. Unless performance and safety are completely off target then the cost/performance metric should shift the buyer towards the local product with subsidy.

The better the local product, the less we need to subsidize to reach that cost/performance sweet spot. The ideal story should be that products that we have to subsidize heavily at first will increasingly get better over time (and the military becomes experienced with them) that the subsidies become less and less.

chola · Post by **chola** » 14 Jul 2019 02:40

Vivek K wrote:^^^*^Wrong! It IS the duty of IAF to protect even the national economy AND on top of that domestic supplies are typically cheap and plentiful!

So wanting the Pilatus is........

HAL needs to hire a pvt firm for sales and allow business development expenses to cater to needs of specific people. Maybe that could help in securing release of their payments!

Vikek ji, now you really can't say the IAF's duty includes the national economy! Do we want our air force to be involve in the economy?! And as we know from our nany pages in BR, the domestic stuff is not cheaper but often comes with a fairly heft sticker price (because of phoren parts and consultancy) that scares off the armed forces even further. We have to be realistic here.

So the GOI must prioritize the nation's industry over the armed forces' preferences (provided the local product can do the basic job.)

I do agree that HAL needs a sales team and lobbyists since it looks like they are in competitions with phoren firms like Boeing with former Indian officers -- including an Admiral from the naval aviation corps of the IN if I recall correctly!

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Jul 2019 02:55

Really? I think you need to research a bit more into macro economics and maybe that will remove some clouds. We can take it offline but Domestic expensive products help both the user and the economy in many ways. Buying so called cheaper like Russian hardware (apparently cheaper through treaties costing the economy or costs hidden (T90) helps develop foreign industries making Indians poorer. Fighting a foe like China is not possible without producing your own weapons. Pakistan is a different matter.