Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

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DharmaB
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 08 Jul 2019 17:39

Here is a nyaya in SD literature...
http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Ny%C4%81ya ... Ny.C4.81ya
Rajjusarpa Nyāya

It literally means ‘the maxim of the rope appearing as a serpent’. In semi-darkness, a piece of rope lying on the road may appear as a snake, producing fear in the mind of the person who sees it. This illusion disappears when it is actually seen in bright light. This illustration is widely used by the writers of Advaita Vedānta to explain how Brahman, the one without a second, appears as this world of multiple objects with different names and shapes. Avidyā or ajñāna is responsible for this illusion.
Last edited by DharmaB on 08 Jul 2019 18:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 08 Jul 2019 18:00

But still nothing can satisfy the reason for the creation / ignorance / bondage & moksha or nirvana.

This is the reason why some sages suggested that, this world is not real. But could not all the way claim that it is not real. So then claimed it as surreal... dreamlike... The dream is real only to the dreamer. Not outside of it. Once you wake up, there is no more dream... So it is suggested, once you wake up from this surreal world, to the higher reality, then the world appears like a dream (similar to how we feel after we wake up daily and feel about the dreams we had. There is no reason for dream to exist).

So are we all collectively dreaming the dream together? Or sharing the part of same dream?...
We already began discussing QM right ?... :)

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 08 Jul 2019 20:14

Vikas wrote:
sudarshan wrote:[8]

Case study 2 - Quantum mechanics:

….
[*]So - basically, like Einstein kept objecting - God seems to be playing dice with all of us[/list]

Thanks for jotting it down Sudarshan Ji.

Everytime I read something like this, My mind goes Whaaaaat !!
This is the most complicated yet most beautiful definition of events happening around us.
I wonder if a observer also causes the historical background of the event to be formed along with.

e.g. There was no observer for big bang so it never happened but as soon as Scientists figured it out, The big bang along with all the later events unfolded.


Have you seen the descriptions of the "delayed choice" experiments? Briefly, they put two beamsplitters in the path of a photon, one after the other. What the photon does at the first beamsplitter, is determined by whether or not the second beamsplitter is inserted in the path. Which means - when the photon gets to the first beamsplitter, it behaves in one of two ways, depending on whether or not the second (and later) beamsplitter has been inserted (how does the photon know there is going to be another beamsplitter)?

Now here's the kicker. The experimenters made the choice of whether or not to insert the second beamsplitter, after the photon had already got past the first one (this is the "delayed choice" part of the experiment). And the photon's behavior at the first beamsplitter was still determined by whether or not the second beamsplitter was present in its path!

Something like - you observe a guy in a car, the car comes to a toll-gate, and its behavior at the toll-gate is determined by whether or not there will be another toll-gate further down the road. Now, somebody makes a choice to insert the second toll-gate (or not) after the guy in the car has already passed the first toll-gate, and still when you look back at the experiment after both toll-gates have been passed by the car, you find that the guy's choice at the first toll-gate is always in line with whether or not the second toll-gate was eventually inserted in his path, regardless of how many times you do the experiment. The guy was always able to anticipate the "delayed choice."

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 09 Jul 2019 06:43

I had heard about Markov Chain models before, and I even remember reading about them.

The matrix model I set up that I talked about earlier, is a Markov model. Something clicked today so I went and looked it up again. The matrix I set up is known as the "transition probability matrix," the columns indeed are normalized, and the solution method I adopted (identifying Eigen values and Eigen vectors) is also the standard way to solve the problem and arrive at the steady-state distribution of states. I guess I subconsciously retained the memory of the Markov Chain model and its solution technique and just reproduced it (either that, or I independently came up with the idea again :mrgreen:).

So, if the "karmic credit" concept is modeled as a Markov model, then when the number of species increases, it is indeed valid (mathematically) to conclude that the ratio of the numerical count of the lowest state to the highest one can very well hit ridiculous values like 10^21 and way beyond.

The conclusion is that the "karmic credit" concept is NOT FALSIFIED by this startling observation of virus count being a factor of a sextillion higher than the human count, and even any smart-ass scientific freak (who is of course skeptical about these weird Hindoo superstitions of karma and rebirth) should be satisfied (if (s)he really knows anything about the scientific method) that the observation is in line with the theory and the axiom of the law of karma.

When I set up the problem with the "Moksha" state which does not permit exit from the state, the Markov model became an "absorbing Markov model" with the "absorbing Moksha state," and the conclusion (again, mathematically) is inescapable, that all entities will end up in the Moksha state.

The conclusions I came to from the matrix model (which is really a Markov model) were valid, mathematically. They are not in any kind of way a "proof" of the karmic credit concept, but they do show that the currently enormous virus/ human ratio does not falsify the karmic credit concept.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby Pulikeshi » 09 Jul 2019 09:02

Vikas wrote:^Maybe the ancient and later day sages and monks were right.
Hard to fathom Maya with Human mind, understanding and experience.
Still doesn't answer what is the purpose of this creation and why do we carry the curse of Moksha ?


Agreed, but I can’t even fathom my purpose in life, so where am I to arrive at one for creation? :mrgreen:
That said to misquote the Matrix - Moksha is just a word, what does it mean to experience it? Is it a state or a process? Or something else?
What should get our goat is no one can or has observed visually anything atom or smaller! But we talk of cats live and dead!!!
Will post about ‘weakness’ as it relates to measurement when I get my thoughts together... the difference b/w observation and reality!

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby Pulikeshi » 09 Jul 2019 10:17

in praise of Weakness
Time stamp around 30mins - who is an observer?
Time stamp around 35mins - entanglement
Time stamp around 40mins - can we question our past?
Time stamp around 1hr - Hardy’s paradox and Vaidman’s bomb
Finally - weak measurement

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 09 Jul 2019 11:41

Vikas wrote:^Maybe the ancient and later day sages and monks were right.
Hard to fathom Maya with Human mind, understanding and experience.
Still doesn't answer what is the purpose of this creation and why do we carry the curse of Moksha ?


Just trying to soothe your statement "why do we carry the curse of Moksha ?" ...

Here is what sage Ashtavakra said about bondage and moksha...

क्वकताभक्वचवाबोिातनतिमंस्फुयणंक्ववा।क्वाऩयोऺंपरंवाक्वतन्स्वबावस्यभेसदा॥२०-५॥

kva kartā kva ca vā bhoktā niṣkriyaṁsphuraṇaṁkva vā
kvāparokṣaṁphalaṁvā kva niḥsvabhāvasya me sadā

For me, free from individuality, there is no doer and no reaper of the consequences,
no cessation of action, no arising of thought, no immediate object, and no idea of results.


क्वरोकंक्वभुभुऺुवाभक्वमोगीऻानवान्क्ववा।क्वफि्क्वचवाभुि्स्वस्वरूऩेऽहभद्वमे॥२०-६॥

kva lokaṁkva mumukṣurvā kva yogī jñānavān kva vā
kva baddhaḥkva ca vā muktaḥsvasvarūpe'hamadvaye

There is no world, no seeker for liberation, no yogi, no seer, no-one bound
and no-one liberated. I remain in my own non-dual nature.


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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 09 Jul 2019 11:54

To me sage Ashtavakra's words very much resembles the modern theory of Quantum Mechanics...

When there is an observer(as the one who thinks and tries to measure), the world falls into a definite state of reality.
When there is no observer (no thought and hence no measuring), the reality remains in a non-definite wave state (may be this is what Bliss is...)

As per QM, when an object is in wave state, it is everywhere simultaneously. Does this sound like all pervading state of God (or whatever that Reality is...)?

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 09 Jul 2019 15:02

Here is some commentary on Ashtavakra Gita in comparision with Bhagavad Gita & Upanishads...

https://www.osho.com/osho-online-librar ... 370350e875

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 09 Jul 2019 19:34

Continuing from [8]:

[9]

  • Now take axioms 2 and 3
    • Also consider the "Galaxy Quest" video game, as in the short story
    • The game has rules such as gravity, acceleration (of the ship), wormholes, dimensionality, etc.
    • But these rules are not the real driver, they are simply a framework
    • The real driver of the game is the desire of the player to have a nice time, to meet certain targets (like reach the 7th dimension) - and also the actions of the player (karmic consequences)
    • Likewise, in our universe, gravity, electromagnetism, strong and weak forces, these are just the framework
    • The real drivers of this universe are axioms 2 and 3 [9.1]
      • Our material desires,
        and,
      • The consequences of our actions
    • If you've read the book "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
      • You might remember this torture device, in which a person can be strapped, and then the device will show the person his/ her true size in the vast universe
        • Most people subjected to this treatment lose their sanity and fade away into insignificance
      • But there was one guy whose ego was such, that the device made him exhilirated
        • He thought the device had showed him that in the vast universe, he was the most important person!
      • What I'm saying is - according to axioms 2 and 3, it is true, we (all jivas) really are the most important things in this universe, in fact, this universe exists only to serve our desires, and it has no independent existence[9.2]
        • But - with the counter-balancing principle of - consequences of our actions
        • So, like I said before, go ahead, enjoy to your heart's content, this is the only purpose of material existence
        • But - our future enjoyment will be constrained by the consequences of our current actions (remember this and be guided by this principle (or by Dharma, which is derived from this principle), and you should be fine)
    • So the wave function collapse basically pertains to the fact - there is no reality independent of our desires, and our karmic consequences (I submit that these two principles are the real drivers of our universe; gravity, electromagnetism, etc. are side-shows, mere enablers for the real drivers)
    • The direction of the wave-function collapse is also not random or probabilistic, it is fully determined by:[9.3]
      • Our material desires,
        and,
      • The consequences of our actions
    • We only perceive this probabilistic description of the wave function, because we are unable to understand the mechanism of the law of Karma
    • Whereas a sage or accomplished seer is able to better fathom the workings of Karma, so they are able (to some extent) to predict the future, based on their knowledge of past actions of individuals
      • A quantum physicist would say that they are able to predict a limited number of future wave function collapses
      • For example - sage Vyasa arriving to take his mother, and the ladies Ambika and Ambalika to the forest, telling them "you are not going to be able to bear what happens here (Hastinapura) beyond this point"
      • Or even Gandhari's curse to Sri Krishna, where she accurately traces the end of the Vrishni clan
    • Whether or not the cat in Schrodinger's thought experiment lives or dies is fully determined by:
      • The cat's desires,
        and,
      • The consequences of the cat's actions
    • Does the cat go into a neither dead nor alive state - NO![9.4]
      • The cat is a perfectly valid observer, it is a spirit soul with desire, same as any of us, just that the consequences of its actions have earned it a cat's body, while the consequences of our actions earned us a human body
      • The wave function collapses with the cat's observation of its own state[9.5]
      • The so-called "paradox" is in the minds of the scientists, who feel that only "human" observers are valid observers
      • They see that the cat is something superior to dull matter (as in - it can't be neither dead nor alive, that's ridiculous!)
      • But they did not think of the cat as a valid observer of its own state (intellectual arrogance? or a projection of the Abrahamic belief that only humans have souls?)
    • Bottomline - the universe IS deterministic, being determined by our desires and actions - gravity, electricity, magnetism, etc. are side-shows to these, the REAL drivers
      • Quantum weirdness is a perception - rather than looking within our consciousness for answers, scientists keep seeking them in the external world
      • The Buddha said - do not waste time in external inquiry, it is futile, look within
    • No need for multiple/parallel universes to explain any of the "weirdness"
    • Does this mean that multiple universes don't exist?
      • NO it does not mean this!
      • Whether or not the concept of multiple or parallel universes (which exists in the infinite God, just like any other concept) is materialized to us, is determined by:
        • Our material desires (do we want to see multiple universes?),
          and,
        • The consequences of our actions (do the consequences allow us to materialize our desire?)
    • Is there a cure for cancer?
      • This is determined by:
        • Our material desires (do we want a cure?),
          and,
        • The consequences of our actions (have we offered enough money to research, made enough sacrifices to deserve this cure?)
      • If these conditions are met, the cure will fall into our lap
      • Or - we can all make sure to stay on the right side of the law of karma, and we won't need a cure
      • But - these aren't the only options -
        • In the Dharmic tradition, you can attain your desires by *any relevant karmic actions*
          • Including penance to God, to ask for the boon of a cure for cancer
          • Like Bhagiratha did penance to get the Ganga to come down to cure his ancestors' sins
    • Will we find a way to survive asteroid impacts, or ward them off?
      • This is determined by:
        • (well, you guessed it)
        • We can live according to Dharma, and the asteroid impact will never happen (unless we want it to!)
    • The vastness of the universe is something born of our desire for scientific study
      • But we are unable to fully make sense of it all, because the consequences of our actions do not permit us to do so
      • We can, individually, fully understand the universe, by gaining Moksha through our actions
      • The Big-bang is a tantalizing glimpse at our real nature, but Vishnu maya prevents us from fully understanding it all
        • And like in the short story, maya is a favor that Vishnu does for us, not a curse (the rationale behind this favor of maya was shown in the story, from the point of view of the axioms) (see [a.5])
      • Formerly, all that men and women saw was a sky filled with stars, a moon and a sun
      • The consequences of their collective actions only permitted them to see this much
      • As the craze for scientific understanding of the universe started, the consequences of our actions started permitting us to gratify our curiosity
        • Cataloguing the stars, measuring their distances, discovering that they were powered by nuclear fusion, finding binary stars, quasars, black holes - all of these discoveries were granted us because:
          • We wanted the gratification of scientific study,
            and,
          • The consequences of our actions (sinking funds into scientific research, honoring scientists with prizes and recognition, etc.) permitted the gratification, but only to this particular extent
        • Will we find life on other planets?
          • Do we want to find life on other planets?
            and,
          • Do the consequences of our actions permit us to do so?
    • And so on - at each point, wavefunction collapses occur, permitting more discoveries, more gratification, more expanding horizons as our desire for further study multiplies (to come - Raktabijaka vs. Kali)
      • So per this view, scientific study is not an end goal or ideal by itself, it is born of our own desire, and gratified by the consequences of our own actions, just like any other desire

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 10 Jul 2019 07:45

[10]

So far I've been focusing on axioms 2. and 3., not so much on axiom 1. There was a reason for this. The fact that Jainism and Buddhism are both neutral, even indifferent to axiom 1. (the all-powerful but disinterested God), and that these religions were able to base their doctrine (according to my postulate) on axiom 2. (desire fulfillment) and 3. (the law of Karma) alone.

Now I want to change tack a little bit, and spend a couple of posts showing the true power of axiom 1. This would make the posts necessarily more oriented towards Hinduism and Sikhism, less towards Jainism and Buddhism.

And then I want to link this back to QM through the yogic slumber of MahaVishnu.

  • Take a number, say, 10
    • Compare it against infinity - 10/Inf=0 (this number is nothing compared to the infinite)
  • Raise it to the power of itself
    • The number becomes unbelievably large - 10 billion? Greater than the number of humans on earth!
    • Compare it against infinity - it is still nothing
  • Take this number (10^10) and raise it to the power of itself
    • We can use logarithms to understand this number
    • (10^10)^(10^10)=10^(10^11)
    • Which means the final number will have 100 billion zeros
    • Let's say we can fill the universe with sub-atomic particles the size of a Planck length
      • The universe is 10^27 meters in size (known universe)
      • A Planck length is like 10^-35 meters
      • So, if the universe is cubic, and the sub-atomic particles we're talking about are cubic, we can cram in (10^62)^3 particles, or 10^186 particles
      • Compare this against the number we have above - 10^(100 billion), and we begin to see what kind of number we're dealing with - it is truly monstrous
    • Now compare this number against infinity - it is still nothing
  • So now take this number, 10^(100 billion), and raise it to the power of itself
    • Please take a moment (or a century) to come to terms with what kind of number we have in our hands (figuratively, of course) right now
    • Then, compare the number against infinity - still nothing
  • Let's say we can perform this elementary operation - take a number, and raise it to the power of itself - once a second
    • So we started with 10, after one second, we had 10 billion, after two seconds - 10^(100 billion), after three seconds... whoa!!!
    • Let's say we keep doing this for a day (please note - every time you do the operation, you end up with a number which utterly dwarfs the previous one - the word "dwarfs" is wholly inadequate here - and here, we're talking about doing the operation 86,400 times)
    • At the end of the day, the number you have, when compared to infinity, is still nothing
  • Let's say you keep doing this operation your whole life - 100 years
    • Please spend all the time you want to get some kind of tenuous grasp of the magnitude of the number we will be dealing with
    • Then, compare the number against infinity - still nothing
  • Let's say we started doing this operation, once per second, when the universe started several billion years ago, and now we have the final number in hand
    • Nope, still nothing to infinity, long way to go!

  • Why did I bring this up?
    • What's your grandest conception of God or the supreme?
      • Sahasraksha (thousand eyed), sahasrahasta (thousand handed), Surya-koti samaprabha (bright as 10 million suns), etc.
    • Nope, compared to what God actually is, this is nothing
    • Take it to the next level - Lalitha Tripurasundari
      • The mother of Brahma Himself (Brahmajanani)
      • The one who created the ten avataras of Vishnu from her fingernails
        • (Karanguli nakhotpanna Narayana dashakritih)
      • The one who is engaged in a primeval battle against Bhandasura, the ultimate opponent
      • Ityadi, ityadi....
    • Nope, still nothing to what God actually is
    • Keep coming up with grander and more magnificent conceptions, outdo yourself, knock yourself out, take a whole lifetime to come up with the grandest notion you can, have your descendants continue to aggrandize the notion till the world ends
    • Nope, you will still come nowhere close to describing the real God
  • The supreme is all-powerful - best to leave it at that
    • Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Kali, Lalitha, etc. are our FEEBLE conceptions of God, just posts and positions, if you will
    • Then why do we only see this feeble, limited universe? Why don't we see even a fraction of the awesome potential and true capabilities of this God?
    • Because the universe is limited by:
      • Our desires,
        and,
      • The consequences of our actions,
      • And because God has no inherent desire to materialize Her potential (disinterested), the universe was created solely to indulge us
    • Which means - God only materializes Her potential to the limited extent, which is necessary to fulfill our desire for materialization of our spiritual potential, within the limits imposed by our karmaphala[10.1]
Last edited by sudarshan on 10 Jul 2019 07:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 10 Jul 2019 07:51

Which means - when we worship Shiva or Vishnu as the ultimate God, we are really projecting the ultimate onto the grandest conception of God that we can come up with. And that is PERFECTLY OK, God will respond to whatever conception we come up with:

Ye yata mam prapadyante, tams tathaiva bhajami aham (BG 4.11)
In whatever form they worship Me, I become that to them.

So what if we worship God in the form of a thief or murderer? Sure, go ahead. God will become a thief and murderer to us, if we're okay with that, then fine.

But you see where this is going. Even our limited notions of God are sufficient, if we worship with Bhakti, God will respond positively. Which means - we can worship Indra or Surya as well. We can worship human forms of God - Sri Ramakrishna, Sai Baba, Adi Sankara, Ramanuja. We can even worship God in the form of our parents, husbands (pativrata), wives (Sri Ramakrishna actually did this), or Gurus. Or we can be like the pet dog, which adores the ground which its master walks on - that is also fine with God, and the dog will advance through this worship.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 10 Jul 2019 08:31

So next, my attempt will be to tie the above posts back to the notion of wave function collapse, through these two examples:

1. The yogic slumber of Vishnu
2. Raktabijaka vs. Kali

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 10 Jul 2019 12:53

Your description of the Matrix is based on two main drivers. 1) Desire and 2) Law of Karma
In this you have not given any place for Gyana (Wisdom), Bhakthi (Devotion for Supreme) and Sharanagathi (Surrender to Supreme). As these are the important means to attain Moksha than the Karma alone. Actually Karma can only ensue in one or the other result and can never be a direct cause for Moksha. Because Moksha is not a result to be achieved. Moksha is an infinite & eternal original state to be one with God. So no amount of doing or non-doing can result in Moksha. In this context karma is only useful in achieving material goals, but not Moksha. Yes it can serve as a secondary driving force to make our life comfortable while we pursue the goal of Moksha.

As per my understanding of scriptures,.. this what I make...
1) For achieving worldly goals - Karma is the primary means. Prayer also works, but secondary
2) To attain (not achieve) Moksha - Wisdom, Devotion & Surrender are primary means. Karma is secondary & supporting means only if done properly.

You have mentioned desire is the primary driving force for the creation. Yes, but you have not mentioned why this desire arise in the first place. You conveniently hide the concept of Avidya (Ignorance) which was mentioned as root cause of this Samsaara (entanglement in never ending cycle of actions and consequences) in many scriptures. And the remedy not just lies in emptying the karmic bank balance, and automatic progression to a final state of Moksha, because that was the state (empty karmic balance) in the beginning too. Hence Moksha is possible only when there is cessation of desire completely forever, caused by Avidya (Ignorance)...

You said Karma is primary principle. Yes it is, but only for those who indulge in actions with a desire (in bondage), until the fulfillment of their desires. Karma is not a primary principle always in every context (refer karma yoga in BG, regarding doing one's duty without attached to results, such actions will not bind the doer). For the one who act with knowledge, without expecting any result, there may be consequences outside as an effect, but it will not bind him causing to take birth again. For the ones who want to get out of this vicious cycle, Karma is not the primary driving force, but it is replaced by Gyana (Wisdom) & Bhakti (Devotion) & Sharanagathi (complete surrender to God). Such people even though they indulge in actions (disinterestedly, like God), such actions or consequences do not bind them in any way. Because then whatever they do, they do for the purpose of liberation only, not to satisfy their selfish desires any more. Of course working to get minimum comforts of life is not necessarily considered as selfish desires. They are basic needs. For such people It will be a mere formality to bear the token effects of past or present karma-phala in this very life and attain to final stage (Moksha) once enlightened with the knowledge about true nature of Self (Self-Realization).

Moksha can never be achieved by fulfilling one's all desires. Or after the karma-phala is over. No one will ever have any clue in any life if his karma phala has come to an end. And more over, even if one has reached this zero state, if he feels like to satisfy his desire for some more time, all the drama starts again. Per your theory, this was the same initial starting point also right ?.., take some karmic credit to begin with and begin the life cycle with a human life, and then either succeed to go up, or fall back in the hierarchy. When will you know that the pendulum has come to the middle, and have to exit to stop this vicious cycle (if and when one feel, not necessary to feel that way). More over the pendulum has its maximum speed at the center and no chances of stopping until there is an intervention by an external agent. Even if the pendulum has to stop by itself due to its own inertia, but it takes some time to come to stand still, in that time, again there can be a new desire (flashes all of sudden due to Maya, you never know, no guarantee), and the pendulum will start oscillating again with new fresh energy.The desire has to be cut with the sword of knowledge sooner or later which is the driving force. Even this also not possible or not that easy to overcome due to the deep rooted nature of Avidya (Ignorance). One has to surrender to the will of God (take Sharanagathi) and follow the penances proscribed in shastras to clean oneself inside, of all the impurities that are accumulated since many life times. It is dis-tasteful or uncomfortable to hear for the egoistic people... ( free will is another nice name for ego..)

Again Moksha is not an automatic state which ensue after all the karma-phala is over (repeating this again). Actually as long as there are unfulfilled desires there will be birth and there will be attempts to fulfill them (some in dharmic way, others in adharmic way), and there will be consequences, due to these consequences, next birth ensues (along with unfulfilled desires), so on and on...it will lead to a never ending cycle of births and deaths until one realizes that it is a futile attempt to satisfy one's ego to fulfill its desires to its maximum possibility. Actually there is no maximum limit to it (A Desire can never be fully fulfilled by its very nature, Maya, Avidya)

Here in below shloka from BG, the word dushpuram means it can never be complete.

Kaamam aasriya dushpuram
dambha-maana-madaanvitah
mohaad grhitvaasad-graahaan
pravartante suchi-vratah (BG: 16-10)

Taking the shelter of insatiable (never satisfied completely) lust and absorbed in the conceit of pride
and false prestige, the demoniac, thus illusioned, are always sworn to unclean work,
attracted by the impermanent.


Hence there are various paths mentioned in the scriptures on how to get out of this Samsaara (vicious cycle) and many sages who practically experienced this very nature of the law of karma & Maya came up with the different solutions to attain liberation in this very life (for those who want any way, no force). As per Ashtavakra, you can attain Moksha in this very moment, like when the light is brought into dark room, the darkness is no more, it disappears instantly, the moment the candle of light is in. Once you realize your true Atmic nature, no amount of Avidya can bind you. Actually you suddenly realize that there is no Avidya to begin with. It was all an illusion all along (rajjusarpa nyaya, there was never a snake, it exists as an illusion only). There is an immediate cessation of all desires with the onset of knowledge, and ensue into the realization of Brahman or Enlightenment. Then the remaining karmic consequences are a mere formality completed in this very life to attain Moksha at the end of that very life itself. Like the traveler who realize that, he need not to take any flight further to reach his destination, the very place he is now is the destination, then he is left with only to complete some custom formalities to enter into the city of Moksha right there...

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 10 Jul 2019 19:41

DharmaB wrote:Your description of the Matrix is based on two main drivers. 1) Desire and 2) Law of Karma
In this you have not given any place for Gyana (Wisdom), Bhakthi (Devotion for Supreme) and Sharanagathi (Surrender to Supreme).

...

Yes it can serve as a secondary driving force to make our life comfortable while we pursue the goal of Moksha.


The matrix is not aware of any drivers, it only works on probabilities. The drivers behind the probabilities can be anything - Karma, Desire, Gyana, Bhakthi, whatever - the matrix is "meh" on all this, it says - just tell me the probabilities, that's all I need, I don't need to know what the drivers behind the probabilities are.

But again, the Markov model (which is what the matrix really is) only serves that limited purpose of verifying that the one specific observation (virus count to human count) does not falsify the axiom. Its purpose ends right there. It would be untenable to draw any further conclusions from it.

As per my understanding of scriptures,.. this what I make...
1) For achieving worldly goals - Karma is the primary means. Prayer also works, but secondary
2) To attain (not achieve) Moksha - Wisdom, Devotion & Surrender are primary means. Karma is secondary & supporting means only if done properly.

You have mentioned desire is the primary driving force for the creation. Yes, but you have not mentioned why this desire arise in the first place. You conveniently hide the concept of Avidya (Ignorance) which was mentioned as root cause of this Samsaara (entanglement in never ending cycle of actions and consequences) in many scriptures.


Yes I'm hiding this, and I've been saying from the beginning that I'm going to hide this, because my axioms start at a point beyond this. Just like the axiom of "universal gravitation" in the Newtonian model starts beyond the point of "but what exactly is this gravity, bhaisaab?" The axiom is not concerned with that. The hiding is deliberate and open, it is not something sneaky. Once the axiom is set, we only look to match observations against theory predictions to corroborate or falsify the axiom(s).

Like I said, this is a limited development from the point of view of the deductive scientific method, it is not going to satisfy any purists.

And the remedy not just lies in emptying the karmic bank balance, and automatic progression to a final state of Moksha, because that was the state (empty karmic balance) in the beginning too. Hence Moksha is possible only when there is cessation of desire completely forever, caused by Avidya (Ignorance)...

You said Karma is primary principle. Yes it is, but only for those who indulge in actions with a desire (in bondage), until the fulfillment of their desires.

...

For the ones who want to get out of this vicious cycle, Karma is not the primary driving force, but it is replaced by Gyana (Wisdom) & Bhakti (Devotion) & Sharanagathi (complete surrender to God). Such people even though they indulge in actions (disinterestedly, like God), such actions or consequences do not bind them in any way. ... For such people It will be a mere formality to bear the token effects of past or present karma-phala in this very life and attain to final stage (Moksha) once enlightened with the knowledge about true nature of Self (Self-Realization).


I'm coming to that - Raktabijaka vs. Kali.

Moksha can never be achieved by fulfilling one's all desires. Or after the karma-phala is over. No one will ever have any clue in any life if his karma phala has come to an end. And more over, even if one has reached this zero state, if he feels like to satisfy his desire for some more time, all the drama starts again. Per your theory, this was the same initial starting point also right ?..,

...

One has to surrender to the will of God (take Sharanagathi) and follow the penances proscribed in shastras to clean oneself inside, of all the impurities that are accumulated since many life times. It is dis-tasteful or uncomfortable to hear for the egoistic people... ( free will is another nice name for ego..)


Yes, per the theory, that was also the starting point. I'm coming to this.

Again Moksha is not an automatic state which ensue after all the karma-phala is over (repeating this again). Actually as long as there are unfulfilled desires there will be birth and there will be attempts to fulfill them (some in dharmic way, others in adharmic way), and there will be consequences, due to these consequences, next birth ensues (along with unfulfilled desires), so on and on

...

it will lead to a never ending cycle of births and deaths until one realizes that it is a futile attempt to satisfy one's ego to fulfill its desires to its maximum possibility. Actually there is no maximum limit to it (A Desire can never be fully fulfilled by its very nature, Maya, Avidya)


Is there anything in the theory so far, which you feel is against what you wrote above? I thought I was saying the same thing, maybe I missed something. If you look at the short story, it is also along the lines of what you wrote above. Is there some disagreement somewhere, and if so, could you provide the specific point(s)?

Here in below shloka from BG, the word dushpuram means it can never be complete.

Kaamam aasriya dushpuram
dambha-maana-madaanvitah
mohaad grhitvaasad-graahaan
pravartante suchi-vratah (BG: 16-10)

Taking the shelter of insatiable (never satisfied completely) lust and absorbed in the conceit of pride
and false prestige, the demoniac, thus illusioned, are always sworn to unclean work,
attracted by the impermanent.


Hence there are various paths mentioned in the scriptures on how to get out of this Samsaara (vicious cycle) and many sages who practically experienced this very nature of the law of karma & Maya came up with the different solutions to attain liberation in this very life (for those who want any way, no force).

...

Then the remaining karmic consequences are a mere formality completed in this very life to attain Moksha at the end of that very life itself. Like the traveler who realize that, he need not to take any flight further to reach his destination, the very place he is now is the destination, then he is left with only to complete some custom formalities to enter into the city of Moksha right there...


Again, which point(s) in the theory do you feel disagree with the above? Because I thought I was saying pretty much what you have above.

I was coming to the following: Raktabijaka vs. Kali, Story of Tripura, to comment on the "surrender" part, and also the "karma is not an absolute principle" (though it is a fundamental principle) part.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 10 Jul 2019 21:55

The matrix is not aware of any drivers, it only works on probabilities. The drivers behind the probabilities can be anything - Karma, Desire, Gyana, Bhakthi, whatever - the matrix is "meh" on all this, it says - just tell me the probabilities, that's all I need, I don't need to know what the drivers behind the probabilities are.

But again, the Markov model (which is what the matrix really is) only serves that limited purpose of verifying that the one specific observation (virus count to human count) does not falsify the axiom. Its purpose ends right there. It would be untenable to draw any further conclusions from it.


OK. May be it is confusing to use word "matrix". What I mean was with your "Karmic loan" theory. Till now I have not read or heard about it in any scripture. If you have brought that just to defend the trouble that is coming with the observed virus/human ratio, then that is not the right approach IMO. However the mathematical model suggest, no experiment/observation can satisfy or explain the law of karma, which lead to this situation, by just applying my common sense... Just imagine how much bad news it is implying... For how many billion *trillion years (it would go all the way much before big bang) it will take for those viruses to have accumulated bad karma to be viruses to fall from human life, and be at this moment. And considering their life span, how many would have existed since the onset of life on earth? The rate of flow must be linear or at least proportional, through out the system at different stages to maintain the equilibrium (laws of thermo dynamics useful here?). The rate of spirit souls born and die as viruses vs rate of other beings born and die at any given time will never match at any given point of time in this 400 billion years of life on earth. Is this a valid observation or not?

If you say they might have been propagating since minus (-)infinity, then also your "karmic loan" theory is falsified. Since you are assuming, that every soul has started equally with equal opportunity taking the karmic credit to born as humans and starting life at a starting point "0" (assumed) in Time, and reach end point some where much before infinity since number of souls are finite :roll: . The currently observed time span of earth multiply with billion*trillions of such earths in the universe will not be sufficient to cater all of the virus count (10^29 + other souls) to start human life together at any single point in space time and end the journey much before infinity. And if humans exist on other planets then what about other lower life exist on those planets? What about the possibility of virus that exist on those planets (probably one of Saturn satellite is very icy and may be accommodating them already). The rate of growth of such low level creatures will not satisfy the principle of demand and supply of souls. If you say, human life can begin without any other beings to begin with, then we are talking about a utopia, a whole different world from what we see now. What is the need to fall from there? What is the reason? Is it not Avidya? Or is it the conspiracy of God to inspire you to fall? What I imply is there will arise many other questions & logical problems such as these, with this theory of "karmic credit" to satisfy the logical sense...
Last edited by DharmaB on 10 Jul 2019 23:23, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 10 Jul 2019 22:47

Yes I'm hiding this, and I've been saying from the beginning that I'm going to hide this, because my axioms start at a point beyond this.


Your axioms are still fine (even if they are incomplete). But while postulating the theory to support them, I think you have started after a point, not beyond by skipping Avidya but dealing directly with desire. Of course then the desire become Avidya (but not complete). There is a reason for all the scriptures (Upanishads & Brahma Sutras etc. highlighting this Avidya as the root cause). If you want to give away, then the onus lies on you how you will defend your theory. At the start of the theory itself you have taken a new road from what SD & other Dharmic faiths have been taken all along...

Because your starting point is "desire", your end point says "by fulfilling desires" one can reach the end point. That is the major deviation from SD and other faiths.

If your starting point is not good, your ending point (about reaching Moksha) is also will not be satisfactory. It will deviate much from the standard Dharmic philosophy. You have either made very drastic assumptions & conclusions that are very different form what already exists in Dharmic literatures or ignored some to make it appealing and attractive to more people against other faiths...

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 10 Jul 2019 23:36

The fundamental concept of Dharmic faiths (at least in SD) is this when it describes this existence or creation or Brahman...

It is Anaadi (without a beginning) & Ananth (without an end)

Does the infinite ocean (of Brahman) not contain infinite number of Bubbles (we souls) appearing and dis-appearing on its surface, without a beginning and without an end ?

Your assumption of a starting point in time (Time Zero) for all the souls to take human birth to begin with (with karmic credit)- is a serious flaw & deviation from SD scriptures.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 11 Jul 2019 05:43

DharmaB wrote:
Yes I'm hiding this, and I've been saying from the beginning that I'm going to hide this, because my axioms start at a point beyond this.


Your axioms are still fine (even if they are incomplete). But while postulating the theory to support them, I think you have started after a point, not beyond by skipping Avidya but dealing directly with desire. Of course then the desire become Avidya (but not complete). There is a reason for all the scriptures (Upanishads & Brahma Sutras etc. highlighting this Avidya as the root cause). If you want to give away, then the onus lies on you how you will defend your theory. At the start of the theory itself you have taken a new road from what SD & other Dharmic faiths have been taken all along...

Because your starting point is "desire", your end point says "by fulfilling desires" one can reach the end point. That is the major deviation from SD and other faiths.

If your starting point is not good, your ending point (about reaching Moksha) is also will not be satisfactory. It will deviate much from the standard Dharmic philosophy. You have either made very drastic assumptions & conclusions that are very different form what already exists in Dharmic literatures or ignored some to make it appealing and attractive to more people against other faiths...


By any chance, are you interpreting my use of the word "beyond" to mean "transcending" and "superior to?"

Like the Tamil expression - "yengaiyo poittenge saar" I guess.

I was using the word in the sense of "after" or like "skipping," exactly like you said above. Maybe it was a bad choice of word.

Since I don't have the ability to explain where the original desire came from, I'm choosing to skip this and start at a later point. Like Newton had no ability to explain what was the origin of gravity, but it was not necessary for his postulate of universal gravitation. This is perfectly valid in science, and it allows for a superior theory to come in later, which also starts with a more fundamental axiom. I am defending the theory (just like any scientific theory) on the basis of falsifying and corroborating observations. If you feel that there is a superior theory which can start with an axiom like "avidya," please go for it.

I also don't get why you say I took a "new road?" I took the same road, just started at a later point, because I had no ability to start any earlier.

Because your starting point is "desire", your end point says "by fulfilling desires" one can reach the end point. That is the major deviation from SD and other faiths.


I don't get how you jumped to this. The end point does not say "by fulfilling desires" one can reach Moksha - where did you get this from - was there any statement I made which you can point out? Genuinely curious, not a challenge in any way. The end point is "cessation of desire" and "destruction of the original desire." Not at all the same thing as "fulfilling all desires." Again, this is what I wanted to highlight with the observation of Raktabijaka vs. Kali.

At this point, I'm about four or five posts away from finishing what I started. So, not ignoring the points you're making, but maybe we can get back to them (they've been noted, don't worry) after I cross the finish line. There is a definite finish line, it's not going to extend forever, I assure you.

I think I'm going to postpone some of the other material and get to this "Raktabijaka vs. Kali" observation in my next post.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 11 Jul 2019 05:57

Your assumption of a starting point in time (Time Zero) for all the souls to take human birth to begin with (with karmic credit)- is a serious flaw & deviation from SD scriptures.


Really saar, is this my assumption, or your assumption of my assumption? :) Seems like some serious misunderstanding going on, guess I didn't explain very well. Anyway, let me finish, and we'll get to all this.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 11 Jul 2019 09:06

What d'you know - I was saying "Raktabijaka" all these days, some childhood memory lingering on? Now everywhere I look on the 'net, it says "Raktabija." So I'll go with that.

[11]

Raktabija vs. Kali

Post split into three parts: the story; the traceback to axioms; one of the deeper meanings of the story (nothing new in the story or the deeper meaning, these are very well known; the traceback to the axioms is also not unique, but I'm doing it from the point of view of the three specific axioms).

The story (please note - there are many versions and variations):

  • Raktabija was a demon who got a boon from God that every drop of his blood which touched the ground, would turn into a new clone of himself (or a new thousand clones, depending on which version of the story you subscribe to)
    • He thought this would make him invincible and deathless
    • Just like other boon seekers, who get told that they cannot get the boon of living in the same body forever, but who try and find creative and fool-proof ways of getting boons "equivalent" to immortality in the same body
    • So after his boon, he got together with other malcontents (Shumbha, Nishumbha, etc.) and started harassing the three worlds
  • Eventually it came to battle, the Goddess Durga Herself leading the charge
    • Durga Devi was able to hold Herself against the rest of the asura army
    • But Raktabija was something else, Durga found Herself swamped among thousands and millions of clones of Raktabija
    • So at one point Durga said - enough!
      • And decided to take the battle to the next level
    • So She summoned Kali through Her forehead
  • The battle truly entered another level, the MOAB (Mother of all Battles)
    • Kali was orders of magnitude more terrifying than Durga - dark, foreboding, menacing
    • Since Raktabija could regenerate clones of himself through every drop of blood that touched the earth, the first priority was to ensure that no drop of his blood touched the earth
      • So Kali spread Her tongue over the entire battlefield
    • The next priority was to deplete the army of clones
      • So She went after them with terrifying vengeance
    • Once the clones were cleared away, there remained Raktabija himself
      • The smartass finally realized what was coming for him
      • But it was too late, Kali annihilated the original Raktabija as well
  • Did it end there? Depends on which version of the story you follow
    • According to one version, Kali then went on a rampage, and the worlds trembled, seeing no way to control Her
      • As She randomly attacked, killed, and devoured all kinds of living beings
      • Until, finally, Shiva Himself came down to the earth to lie in Her path
      • And when Her foot touched him, She came to Her senses and returned with Him

Now the explanation of all the above, from the point of view of the axioms:

  • Raktabija was a demon, with evil inclinations - so why did God grant him such an amazing boon?
    • Because he had earned it through his penance, and God will impartially fulfill the karmaphala of anybody, grant any desire or favor, so long as they have fairly earned it (axioms 2 and 3)
  • But then he thought he had become invincible, little realizing that (axiom 1 - all-powerful God) - which means - God can always top you, regardless of how much power you accumulate
  • Then he started harassing innocents - meaning, his karmaphala started to run down (axiom 3)
  • Eventually it came to battle - when? When the karmaphala of Shumbha, Nishumbha, Raktabija, and their associates brought them to that point (axiom 3)
  • God materialized in the form of Durga (why Durga? Because Durga was sufficient for the initial purpose of leading the battle)
    • Axiom 1 - disinterested God [11.1] - God, though all-powerful, will only materialize Her potential, to the extent necessary, not an iota more - i.e., not materializing for any desire fulfillment, or for the sake of materialization
    • Durga was sufficient to destroy the other asuras, but Raktabija's boon was too much for Her
      • Why? Because Raktabija had not yet exhausted his karmaphala
      • So God gave him the gratification of fending off God Herself, of laughing at God Herself (again - if somebody truly earns a desire or gratification, it will be unhesitatingly granted)
        • But this only depleted his karmaphala that much faster
      • So when his karmaphala was sufficiently depleted, Durga made the decision to up the ante
        • Summoned the next level of materialization of God's infinite potential
          • Again - Kali was sufficient for the purpose
          • God is capable of levels of violence and aggression, which can make Kali look like a school-girl playing with her dolls on a Sunday afternoon
          • Why did God stop with Kali? Because that was enough for the task [11.2]
        • But even Kali would only annihilate Raktabija, in a manner consistent with his karmaphala - which means, rescinding his boon is not an option
          • But going one above his boon definitely is - hence the tongue on the battlefield (something the smartass never even anticipated - again, God has infinite ways to accomplish any end)
        • Then destroy the clones, then the original Raktabija
    • Now - why go berserk after that?
      • Again, the law of karma (axiom 3)
      • Somebody like Shumbha or Nishumbha or Raktabija doesn't become that powerful in isolation
      • It takes the collusion of many, many people around them
        • This collusion can be active
        • Or it can be through omission - not doing your duty to arrest the ascent of evil - whether out of fear, or laziness, or indifference
      • So Kali was simply going after all those entities, who, through active collusion or through acts of omission, had enabled the ascent of evil
        • The pattern of attack and kill might have seemed random, but it was not
        • Moral: Don't rely on "yada yada hi dharmasya..." to justify your inaction against evil, saying "God will anyway come down to stop adharma" - yes, God will come down, but when (S)He does, you (not having done your dharma) will also be counted as being on the side of adharma [11.3]
        • And once She had annihilated all the colluders, She left the material plane in company of Her husband

Now the deeper meaning (or one of the deeper meanings):

  • What does Raktabija represent?
    • The original desire which brought each of us to the material plane, whatever that was (refer to point [a.1] from the short story)
  • What is the nature of desire?
    • As soon as you fulfill one, a new one (or a hundred or a thousand new ones - depends on which version of the story you go with) arise(s) to take the place of the fulfilled desire
  • While each of us might have come to the material plane with just one desire, we quickly lose control and get overwhelmed by more and more desires, get entangled with the material
    • The way to get out is not to fulfill every desire - the way out is to realize that it is futile to keep chasing after material desire
      • Desire, like the fire, only flares up with feeding
    • But - things are now out of our control
  • So one option is to surrender to God
    • PLEASE NOTE: Please don't do this based on my words - these things can't be done in a haphazard or arbitrary fashion, especially not based on the say-so of somebody on an anonymous forum
    • God will make sure to eliminate one desire after another, until only the original desire is left - and once that is eliminated, you are free
    • And that is a way back to Moksha
    • Kali is known as "phalaharini" or "the destroyer of the consequences of actions" - She has the power to annihilate the desires which prevent Moksha, until the one original desire is isolated - and once that is gone, you are free

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 11 Jul 2019 11:55

sudarshan wrote:
Your assumption of a starting point in time (Time Zero) for all the souls to take human birth to begin with (with karmic credit)- is a serious flaw & deviation from SD scriptures.


Really saar, is this my assumption, or your assumption of my assumption? :) Seems like some serious misunderstanding going on, guess I didn't explain very well. Anyway, let me finish, and we'll get to all this.


Whatever the assumptions or misunderstandings coming from whichever side,.. as long as they serve the purpose of bringing more clarity, it is well and good. Will be glad to do my part of dharma saar :D ...

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby Vikas » 11 Jul 2019 16:52

sudarshan wrote:What d'you know - I was saying "Raktabijaka" all these days, some childhood memory lingering on? Now everywhere I look on the 'net, it says "Raktabija." So I'll go with that.

[11]

Raktabija vs. Kali

……………
[*]PLEASE NOTE: Please don't do this based on my words - these things can't be done in a haphazard or arbitrary fashion, especially not based on the say-so of somebody on an anonymous forum
[*]God will make sure to eliminate one desire after another, until only the original desire is left - and once that is eliminated, you are free
[*]And that is a way back to Moksha
[*]Kali is known as "phalaharini" or "the destroyer of the consequences of actions" - She has the power to annihilate the desires which prevent Moksha, until the one original desire is isolated - and once that is gone, you are free[/list][/list]


Brilliant explanation Sudarshan ji. One of the bet post and finest thread I have read on BRF (Counting my 18 years on BRF now).
Kudos to you and DharmaB Ji.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 11 Jul 2019 19:02

:) Thanks Vikas ji

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 12 Jul 2019 05:42

^^^Thanks!

But the explanation of the deeper meaning of the story is not mine, it is pretty well known. And the story of course is not mine :).

The only thing of mine (even here, the principle of karma is age-old) is the explicit declaration of axioms initially, and the trace-back of the points and concepts in the story to those axioms.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 12 Jul 2019 10:14

[12]

Yogic slumber of Vishnu - (and tying this to the notion of wave function collapse)

  • There is this concept of Vishnu sustaining the material universe through His dream state in a yogic slumber
    • The entire universe is imagined by Vishnu, all events are determined by His dream, every object and life form is simply an entity in His dream
    • What is the meaning of this concept?
  • Try to trace back to our axioms
    • Axiom 2 - desire fulfillment - our material desires are the cause for the creation of this universe
    • Axiom 3 - but we only get to fulfill our desires, to the extent permitted by the law of karma (consequences of past actions)
  • What are we originally? Spiritual selves, abstractions, collections of possibilities and potential
    • For example - I might be a collection of possibilities such as - ability to eat, sleep; sense of humor; tendency for athletic activity; desire for travel; tendency for scientific study; ... whatever it is that makes "me" what I "am"
    • If and when I feel the urge to materialize and enjoy these possibilities - what will I need at that point?
      • I will need a source of energy (the sun)
      • I will need raw materials (the non-living component of the universe)
      • I will need an agent to act upon these raw materials to create my desire (my body)
      • Possibly, I will need the company of other beings such as myself
    • But I am an abstraction, a non-material, spiritual collection of possibilities and potential
      • So where are these material trappings as above to come from, to enable me to fulfill my desires?
    • Answer: God provides all these
      • So the energy source is God, the raw materials are God, my body itself is God, and (S)He supplies all these, so that I can have the sense of materialization - all this is, in reality, God, my body is not mine, it is made of a collection of sub-atomic particles, each of which is God incarnate in that form
    • So Vishnu, through His yogic slumber, generates these sub-atomic particles; He conceives of their grouping in various forms; He gathers them into the required energy source (the sun); into the earth (the base which we need to start fulfilling our desires); He fashions these particles into our body cells, groups them according to function, to create our bodies themselves
      Prakritair kriyamanani gunair karmani sarvasa, ahamkara vimudh atma, kartaham iti manyate (BG 3.27)
      The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature
    • The reality is - every sub-atomic particle in the universe is God, He arranges them in various forms in his yogic slumber to create the groupings we see, in the form of our bodies, of mountains or sky or air, of the sun or the universe itself
  • What is the basis, on which Vishnu groups all these sub-atomic particles into forms? I.e., how does He decide - I will group these particles into a rock, these into a tree, these into air?
    • From axioms 2 and 3 - He decides all these based on two fundamental principles
      • The desires of the beings who come to the material plane
        and
      • The consequences of their actions
    • So what Vishnu is doing, is engineering the wave function collapses of each sub-atomic particle or photon at each time step in the simulation of the universe
      • By collapsing the wave functions of a vast number of particles, He can create any permutation or combination of living beings, sky, air, or inanimate matter
      • But - at each time step, He will only create that permutation or combination, which is determined by - our collective desires, and the collective consequences of our actions [12.1]
    • So - we wanted a cure for disease
      • We found antibiotics - Vishnu, in His yogic state, dreamed up the wave function collapses which brought us the materialization of antibiotics
      • But we started misusing this boon (exactly like the asuras, who get some grand boon, and then start thinking of themselves as invincible)
      • So Vishnu dreamed up the wave function collapses, which brought us the consequences - antibiotic resistant infections
    • So - now we want to find life on other planets
      • Sure, if we desire it, and if the consequences of our actions permit it, then Vishnu will engineer the wave function collapses necessary to bring this abstract possibility of "life on other planets" into the material realm
      • Having found life on other planets, will we finally be happy?
        • Not a chance :mrgreen:
        • See "Raktabija vs. Kali" - desire only flares up with feeding, like the fire
    • We want to travel through space and colonize other planets
      • Sure, if the two conditions (axioms 2 and 3 are met) - Vishnu will engineer this for us
      • We can travel through space! YESS! We are invincible!
        • Yeah? Just like Raktabija was invincible, just like Bhasmasura or the three asuras who occupied the cities of Tripura were invincible
        • IOW, no, we are not invincible, God can dematerialize the possibility anytime, all it takes is a few wave function collapses
          • And we lose the abilities we formerly had - how? What is the material mechanism? It can be anything:
            • Restriction of energy source (run out of whatever it is that supplies us with energy - nuclear fusion, solar power, antimatter reactor - whatever)
            • Restriction of a critical resource
              • Lithium? Silicon (the basis of our semi-conductor industry)? Rare earths, which go into our magnets, BLDC motors, etc.?
            • A new law of physics, hitherto unknown, which puts a spanner in the works
            • A more advanced, malevolent species on another planet comes to wipe us out
            • A star goes supernova unexpectedly
          • Whatever - as seen above (Raktabija vs. Kali) God has infinite means at Her disposal to do a one-up on us, regardless of how much power we accumulate
    • So bottomline - we are at Vishnu's mercy, when it comes to materializing our desires
      • He has made this pact of "karmic consequences" with us, to give us a clear principle based on which He allows us to fulfill our desires
      • But there is no reason for Him to adhere to this pact, other than His own indulgence [12.2]
        • This will come up again, in the story of Tripura
      • We can lose our materialization of our desires any time - He can do this arbitrarily (though He will not, He will honor the karmic pact - but He can still take it all away from us, even while honoring the pact)
    • But there is more:
      • As said above - every single sub-atomic particle in the universe IS GOD
      • Our bodies are God, what we eat and drink are God, the pleasures we crave are God
      • God is the enjoyer, God is what is enjoyed, and God is enjoyment itself
        • So while we feel that we eat or drink or enjoy our activities, ultimately, it is God who does all this
          Bhoktaram yagna tapasam sarva loka maheshwaram, suhurdam sarva bhutanam gnatva mam shantim archati (BG 5.29)
          A person in full consciousness of Me, knowing Me to be the ultimate beneficiary of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods, and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attains peace from the pangs of material miseries.
  • So the notion of "disinterested God" (axiom 1) does not mean that God is aloof from the material universe, or that God is somehow "outside" the material universe [12.3]
    • God is intimately involved with the material universe, God IS the material universe, God is every single sub-atomic particle, and thus (S)He is every object, every tree, every living body, every force (gravity or electromagnetism), every photon
    • God is the ultimate enjoyer of all the pleasures which we think we enjoy
    • And also the ultimate sufferer
    • But God does this all in a detached, disinterested way (neither the pleasure, nor the suffering really bother Him/Her) - the only reason why (S)He does this at all, is to indulge OUR desire (within the limits imposed by our karmaphala)
  • Every single wave function collapse is engineered by Vishnu through His yogic slumber
    • And the criterion for engineering the collapses is two-fold (axiom 2, and axiom 3)

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 13 Jul 2019 17:47

Last two posts are excellent. Couldn't agree more...

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 13 Jul 2019 17:51

Wish to comprehend on the nature of "Time" little bit, it may be useful in understanding the vast span of evolution of a spirit soul from its primordial state to final Moksha state.

As per Einstein,
    Time is not Absolute
    Space is also not Absolute
    In fact he used the term Space-Time to be used in combination, because one doesn't exist independent of another
    It was proven experimentally that (in GPS usage), the objects moving at different speeds, have their clocks show different Times

But what is the Absoluteness of Time w.r.t its experience, in psychological terms?

Einstein in his theory of relativity mentions in general terms that, the experience of Time is not same for everyone. Suppose if one is in bad mood, time runs very slow for him/her. When a couple are having their best moments, time runs so fast for them.

Then what is relevance of time for other living beings? How is the time progresses for them.
In the book "Power of Now", author Eckhart Tolle says, if you ask a bird, what is the time? what could it say? It can only say "NOW".
It can only live in the present moment. Present is all it has. It lives moment to moment. It won't keep track of time like us humans. This may be the reason they look to be in a state of bliss (even low level or incomplete). No idea of past, no idea of future, they live in sync with Nature. Nature provides them all and takes care of them all. It doesn't appear to be worried about what next !

In fact one can say, they live beyond Time. There is no time for them. All they have is one moment NOW which they live and die fully in it.

Unlike birds & animals, we humans deal with the time more, we keep track of it. We keep our past memories in our mind in the form of thoughts, we plan for future (again in the form of thoughts), and we always miss to experience enough the present moment NOW due to the burden of our past or worry about our future.

The experience of Time comes only when we measure it. It is there when we keep track of events. Time exists between two events. Birth and death. Beyond birth and after the death what is the meaning for time? Who is the one to track it and experience it before the birth and after the death?

Does the spirit soul has any time to measure and experience it? Suppose if we fell in to deep sleep, after we wake up, it only feels like a moment even though hours might have passed. Similarly what might be the experience of soul when it is not in body?

To me it appears that the experience of time comes only when we measure it. When we measure all the good and bad events in our life and carry them in the form of thoughts, then there is the experience of what we call time. When we are living in expectations about future and waiting for them to fulfill, there comes the time...

In other way Time can be termed as an ILLUSION (does not mean it is not at all there. It only comes in to existence only when one measures it, or when there is an observer). Similarly Space is an illusion. As per Eisenstein, there is no Absolute space. Time/Space comes into experience only when there is an observer (I AM) who is measuring it (in thoughts in Mind)...

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 14 Jul 2019 02:55

DharmaB wrote:Last two posts are excellent. Couldn't agree more...


Thanks!

The important thing right now for our purposes, is the traceback of the concepts in the stories to the axioms. This is in line with objective b) - show that the axioms are the basis of our Dharmic faiths.

I wanted to point out another thing, with reference to the last post about Vishnu's yogic slumber.

If you ask a lay person "where is God?"

An atheist would of course say "nowhere."

An Abrahamic would point vaguely at the sky and say "somewhere over there."

A Jain or Buddhist would smile and say "don't worry about it, if you live your life right, it doesn't matter."

A Hindu or Sikh would laugh at the question. "Where is God NOT? Everything around you IS God."

This last response is also the response of Prahlada to his father, Hiranyakashipu, and it was the precursor to the Narasimha avatara of Vishnu. It is not an idle point, it ties into the notion of Vishnu's yogic slumber, also to wave function collapse, quantum entanglement, etc.

So, since per Hinduism/ Sikhism, God is everywhere, everything, that is why Hindus are okay with worshiping rats, snakes, cows, or in short, all of creation.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 14 Jul 2019 03:03

DharmaB wrote:Wish to comprehend on the nature of "Time" little bit, it may be useful in understanding the vast span of evolution of a spirit soul from its primordial state to final Moksha state.

As per Einstein,
    Time is not Absolute
    Space is also not Absolute
    In fact he used the term Space-Time to be used in combination, because one doesn't exist independent of another
    It was proven experimentally that (in GPS usage), the objects moving at different speeds, have their clocks show different Times

But what is the Absoluteness of Time w.r.t its experience, in psychological terms?
...


I'm also struggling with this. Ideally, I'd like to tie this back to the axioms (it kind of fits in, time is a device we need to limit our enjoyment per our karmaphala).

But I think you are getting somewhere. You sleep and wake up, and your time reference changes (a moment in sleep or dream state becomes hours in the waking world, and vice versa). If a person falls unconscious or goes into a coma, their reference state changes, and when they come to, they are surprised at how much time has passed. It is said that when you sleep, you go back to Brahmaloka and do Brahma darshan, which you promptly forget when you wake up.

WRT Brahmaloka, there is an interesting story about Balarama and how he married his wife Revati. Revati's father went to petition Brahma for a suitable husband for his daughter. Brahma was occupied with watching a performance by Gandharvas, so Revati and her father both waited. When Brahma was done, they approached him with their request.

Brahma laughed loud and said - "you think you've spent a few moments in this plane, but in reality, thousands of years have passed in the world you left behind. All those whom you knew have passed on. How are you going to find a husband for your daughter now?"

After some back and forth, Brahma brought both of them back to the material plane and showed them Balarama (who was thousands of years separated from the time when Revati and her father had left the material plane). But there was a small problem. Balarama was extremely tiny compared to Revati! (Look up Lorentzian length contraction when dealing with relativistic speeds).

So it was decided that Balarama would hit Revati on the head with his plough (halayudha) and reduce her to his size. After that, they got married.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 14 Jul 2019 09:24

[13]

Jayadrata's boon from Shiva:

  • When the Pandavas were in exile, Sindhu-naresh (the ruler of the kingdom of Sindh) Jayadrata made an attempt to abduct Draupadi when the brothers were away
    • He took her away in his chariot - Bheema and Arjuna gave chase
    • They caught up with him, gave him a sound beating, and dragged him to Yudhishtra
    • Yudhishtra, ever the Dharmatma, pardoned him, had Draupadi prescribe a nominal punishment, and let him go
      • He was a family relation certainly, being the husband of Duryodhana's sister Dushala
  • The humiliated Jayadrata vowed to get even against the Pandavas
  • So he performed penance to Shiva to get the boon of being able to kill all the Pandavas
  • Shiva appeared before him, listened to his boon request
    • Told him - no, I can't grant you that
  • The surprised Jayadrata asked - what can you grant me then?
  • Shiva told him, Arjuna is too much for you, you can never match him in battle
    • But if you want, I will give you the boon that you will be able to hold off the remaining four Pandavas in battle, just once
      • So choose your time carefully, when you want to hold them off in battle
    • The disappointed Jayadrata took the boon, left off his penance and went home to his wife, Dushala
  • This was the boon that served Jayadrata on the day that Abhimanyu was lured into the Chakravyuha and killed
  • Now, why did Shiva refuse to grant Jayadrata the boon he wanted? Was it unfair?
  • As an analogy, consider this scenario
  • A tramp peers into a car showroom and gets enamored - I want a car
  • But he only has small change
  • So he makes the decision to earn some decent money and come back in two years' time to get his desired car - a brand-new BMW!
    • He slogs at all kinds of odd jobs, saves money, behaves responsibly
    • In two years' time, he's satisfied that he's earned some decent amount
    • Back to the car showroom
    • He proudly shows the dealer the cash he has
      • The dealer says - dude, I can't sell you that brand-new BMW, it costs ten times what you have with you right now
      • But I'll tell you what - I have a used Honda, it is still in good shape
        • Do you want that instead?
    • So the tramp has to make do with the Honda
    • Disappointed? Is it unfair? Not really, the tramp's efforts were rewarded, he just didn't have what it took to buy a new BMW
      • And it would not be fair to other car buyers if the dealer sold the tramp the brand-new BMW for a pittance
  • Again - God will only grant our desires in accordance with the law of karma [13.1]

******************************

Bhasmasura:

There are many versions of this story, some versions (maybe even the original version) do not have Bhasmasura threatening Shiva himself. But I'm going with the version where Bhasmasura does threaten Shiva, in order to illustrate a point of interest.

  • Bhasmasura performed penance and invoked Shiva to get a boon
    • I don't know if he tried asking for immortality (in a single body I mean - technically, all our spirit souls are eternal and deathless) and was refused - maybe not (but I'm sure - if he'd asked, he'd have been refused :mrgreen:)
  • He asked Shiva for the boon that if he (Bhasmasura) put his hand on anybody's head, that person would be reduced to ashes
    • Since Bhasmasura had earned his boon through rigorous penance - thathasthu!
  • Bhasmasura then moved to put his hand on Shiva's own head (again - many versions do not have this in the story)
    • Shiva, frightened, ran away, with Bhasmasura giving chase
    • Shiva took refuge with Vishnu
    • So Vishnu took it upon Himself to supply Bhasmasura with his just desserts
  • Vishnu took the form of Mohini, the ultimate seductress
    • Mohini flirted with Bhasmasura, and he forgot all about his quest to reduce people to ashes
    • She led him in a dance, and the lustful Bhasmasura followed her every move
    • Until Mohini put her hand on her own head
      • And Bhasmasura followed suit, reducing himself to ashes

Now the trace-back to the axioms:

  • Shiva granted Bhasmasura's boon, because both conditions (axioms 2 and 3) were met
  • Was Shiva really frightened of Bhasmasura, and did Shiva not foresee that Bhasmasura would try to burn Shiva himself?
    • Of course Shiva foresaw this, of course he was not frightened
    • But he was humoring Bhasmasura
    • Since Bhasmasura's karmaphala granted him the gratification of making God Himself run in terror, Shiva honored that [13.2]
    • But this rapidly depleted Bhasmasura's karmaphala
  • Shiva's "taking refuge" with Vishnu was part of the game, part of the Lila
  • And Vishnu responded in a way which did not negate the law of karma
    • Instead, Vishnu used Bhasmasura's own ambitions and desires against him
    • Gave him the chance to dance with the ultimate seductress
      • Which again rapidly depleted Bhasmasura's karmaphala
    • And when Bhasmasura's karmaphala was sufficiently depleted (zero? negative? take your pick) - Vishnu got him to destroy himself
      • But - still in accordance with the law of karma
    • And that, of course, is the beauty of it all - God has infinite ways to achieve His/ Her ends, even when playing within the parameters of the law of karma

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby Karthik S » 14 Jul 2019 09:32

Gurus, does anyone of you know the background of shirdi baba? He got really famous in last 2 3 decades across India. Don't seem to find anything about his birth, background etc. Some say his father was one badruddin (hence his phrase allah malik may be), some say his parents were brahmins who abandoned him and that he was raised by a muslim etc. He got so mainstreamed into hinduism that temples just for him have cropped up everywhere from desh to US, and people visit them as much in number as any other Hindu temples.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 14 Jul 2019 12:37

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/teachin ... 1331197468

Above is a link on Sai Baba's teachings...

From what I read, he is considered as an enlightened master by many gurus and devotees. Only that he uses phrases like (Sab ka malik ek hai, or Allah malik), but his teachings are mostly based on hindu philosophy (law of karma & rebirth). He regarded Lord Rama & Krishna as avatars. It is not clear about his parents (some say they were brahmins). But he was raised by a sufi saint. He meditated many years before his enlightenment and appeared in Shirdi. But many Muslims disown him as kafir (but he is a fakir). Hindus may be building temples based on their faith and devotion...

Meher baba (parsi) considered him as his guru. Upasani baba (hindu) considered him as his guru and lived in Shirdi for much of his life. They are also considered to be enlightened masters by many followers.

Long time ago when I mentioned to one of Sai baba devotee that, he lived until 1917, he could not believe. He was under the impression that he might be a historical figure who might have lived centuries ago...
Last edited by DharmaB on 14 Jul 2019 13:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 14 Jul 2019 13:49

I'm also struggling with this. Ideally, I'd like to tie this back to the axioms (it kind of fits in, time is a device we need to limit our enjoyment per our karmaphala).

But I think you are getting somewhere. You sleep and wake up, and your time reference changes (a moment in sleep or dream state becomes hours in the waking world, and vice versa). If a person falls unconscious or goes into a coma, their reference state changes, and when they come to, they are surprised at how much time has passed. It is said that when you sleep, you go back to Brahmaloka and do Brahma darshan, which you promptly forget when you wake up.


My intention in referring this is to prove a point that, Hindus need not go into depression hearing about the long cycle of innumerable births and deaths as various forms of life before taking human birth. And how much time it would take or have taken. All this might be part of His Leela. Even about the observed virus count and other low level life forms, it could all be part of His (Vishnu) Maya.

What matters most is and precious is, we have reached this human life, and we were given this boon of conscious Mind (of intelligence, discrimination, analysis etc.), to use it to bring possible optimum (not maximum) benefit individually and also to the society. Live it consciously & happily. If majority think, act and live according to the dharma, this world will turn into an utopia sooner or later.

Running after endless desires is not good, because it will ensue only conflict. Because there are not enough resources on earth to satisfy each and every desire of all the humans. But it doesn't mean that one should become lazy, and adjust to live in dirt poverty (Hinduism is not teaching to live in poverty). If the life is to be lived within certain limits, then all will be good outside and inside... (sounding like communist ..? :D )

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby ShauryaT » 14 Jul 2019 15:48

DharmaB wrote:https://image.slidesharecdn.com/teachingsofshirdisaibaba-120308090346-phpapp01/95/teachings-of-shirdi-sai-baba-4-728.jpg?cb=1331197468

Above is a link on Sai Baba's teachings...

Why do you consider the above to be essentially Hindu? I did not. The very first word Saburi is rooted in Arabic. The entire emphasis on human actions as God's will is hindu? Confusing Bhakti with the concept of surrender to God has sown a lot of confusion amongst many Hindus. Is this how we translate

karmaṇy-evādhikāras te mā phaleṣhu kadāchana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr mā te saṅgo ’stvakarmaṇi

or

chātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛiṣhṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśhaḥ
tasya kartāram api māṁ viddhyakartāram avyayam

From what I know, he was put into a grave and not even cremated. I mean no disrespect for even I have some friends / family who visit his shrine and worship him but find it hard to pass his teachings as essentially Hindu. What I suspect is happening is due to the vastness and openness of what constitutes as being Hindu many external ideologies can be packaged and sold as such. Sufism was one such package.

Although Dharma systems are wide and pluralistic and many concepts can fit into it, if there is one thing, one looks for as a simple test if it adheres to Dharma systems is a focus on the "inner self". Almost all the Vedic and non-Vedic Dharma systems will attest to this concept as a central one. Sorry again, no offense meant to anyone.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby ShauryaT » 14 Jul 2019 15:52

DharmaB wrote:Running after endless desires is not good, because it will ensue only conflict. Because there are not enough resources on earth to satisfy each and every desire of all the humans. But it doesn't mean that one should become lazy, and adjust to live in dirt poverty (Hinduism is not teaching to live in poverty). If the life is to be lived within certain limits, then all will be good outside and inside... (sounding like communist ..? :D )
We have a well constructed concept of Purusharthas, the four pursuits of a human life. Dharma - for regulation, Artha and Kaama for Acquisition and Moksha for renunciation.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 14 Jul 2019 16:24

ShauryaT wrote:
DharmaB wrote:Running after endless desires is not good, because it will ensue only conflict. Because there are not enough resources on earth to satisfy each and every desire of all the humans. But it doesn't mean that one should become lazy, and adjust to live in dirt poverty (Hinduism is not teaching to live in poverty). If the life is to be lived within certain limits, then all will be good outside and inside... (sounding like communist ..? :D )
We have a well constructed concept of Purusharthas, the four pursuits of a human life. Dharma - for regulation, Artha and Kaama for Acquisition and Moksha for renunciation.


+1

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby DharmaB » 14 Jul 2019 16:40

ShauryaT wrote:
DharmaB wrote:https://image.slidesharecdn.com/teachingsofshirdisaibaba-120308090346-phpapp01/95/teachings-of-shirdi-sai-baba-4-728.jpg?cb=1331197468

Above is a link on Sai Baba's teachings...

Why do you consider the above to be essentially Hindu? I did not. The very first word Saburi is rooted in Arabic. The entire emphasis on human actions as God's will is hindu? Confusing Bhakti with the concept of surrender to God has sown a lot of confusion amongst many Hindus. Is this how we translate

karmaṇy-evādhikāras te mā phaleṣhu kadāchana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr mā te saṅgo ’stvakarmaṇi

or

chātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛiṣhṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśhaḥ
tasya kartāram api māṁ viddhyakartāram avyayam

From what I know, he was put into a grave and not even cremated. I mean no disrespect for even I have some friends / family who visit his shrine and worship him but find it hard to pass his teachings as essentially Hindu. What I suspect is happening is due to the vastness and openness of what constitutes as being Hindu many external ideologies can be packaged and sold as such. Sufism was one such package.

Although Dharma systems are wide and pluralistic and many concepts can fit into it, if there is one thing, one looks for as a simple test if it adheres to Dharma systems is a focus on the "inner self". Almost all the Vedic and non-Vedic Dharma systems will attest to this concept as a central one. Sorry again, no offense meant to anyone.


About Sai baba, that was my personal opinion. There might be some differences in philosophy. But overall he didn't preach much. He performed miracles that attracted devotees. He was a mystic. But one need not be panic about it. If there is any external hand in building many temples of him ( I am not sure) to compete with mainstream culture, that is a different problem to address. But for that we need not to question Sai baba's stature in the hearts of devotees. That may back fire.

Sant Kabir is also another example. Even Guru Nanak's teachings are inspired from some of Kabir's teachings... Inclusiveness has been part of our culture, while protecting and preserving our core culture. Despite their born religion (claimed), their teachings more or less resemble essence of Vedanta (IMO)...

sudarshan
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 14 Jul 2019 22:50

[14]

The story of Tripura:

Note - I'm mostly following the narrative from here:

http://talesfrommythology.blogspot.com/ ... ipura.html

But towards the end of the story, I'm following a slightly different narrative, again to illustrate a specific point.

  • Kartikeya, the son of Shiva and Parvati, waged war on the asuras and killed Tharaka
    • Tharaka's sons Tharakaksha, Kamalaksha and Vidyunmali, turned over a new leaf (to their credit)
  • They performed penance to Brahma and, after getting the standard wish of "immortality in a single body" rejected, came up with yet another "fool-proof" scheme to attain this immortality by other means
    • They asked for three cities (see the link above for full details, I don't want to reproduce all the details here)
    • These cities would come into alignment only once in a millenium, when the moon entered Pushya
    • The cities could be destroyed only in that single moment in a millenium, by somebody who fired an arrow which would destroy all three cities
    • And this was the only way that the asuras themselves could be killed
  • They got their boon, and the architect Mayasura built the cities for them
    • Since the only entity who could fire that arrow during that single-moment conjunction once a millenium, was Shiva, and since the asuras intended to propitiate Shiva, they thought they were safe
  • Asuras from all over migrated to the three cities, in search of security
  • Indra, of course, burned with jealousy
    • First he went to Shiva with a petition to destroy the cities
      • Shiva angrily rejected the petition
    • So Indra went to Vishnu
      • Vishnu was more mild-mannered, but he too rejected the petition, saying "they have done nothing wrong to deserve destruction"
  • So the asuras lived in peace and prosperity
  • One day, Mayasura came to them and told them of a bad dream he'd had, in which the cities were destroyed
    • Mayasura left to propitiate Shiva
    • The three asuras, on the other hand, were vexed
      • "What's the use of all our piety, if we're going to be destroyed anyway?"
      • And they started terrorizing humans and devas
  • Battle ensued, the devas were outmatched
    • Besides, the asuras had a magic lake in one of the cities, which could revive the dead
    • So when Vidyunmali was slain by Nandi (Shiva's vehicle) he was easily revived
  • The devas once again petitioned Vishnu
    • Vishnu took the form of a huge bull and drank up the lake
  • Now Shiva got into the act
    • Note: now the story deliberately follows a different version than the one in the link above
    • Shiva got the devas together in a mega effort, involving the earth as a chariot, the sun and moon as the wheels of the chariot, vayu as the driver, etc.
    • He got His bow (the Pinaka - remember the multi-barrel rocket launcher) and was poised with the Pashupatastra, to release it on the three cities during the soon-to-come millenial conjunction
    • Then, to the surprise of the devas, Shiva simply glanced at the three cities, reducing most of them to ashes [14.1]
    • The devas were shocked - what was all this effort, earth as chariot, vayu as driver, surya and chandra as wheels - what was it for, if Shiva was going to wilfully ignore all of it?
    • They pleaded with Shiva to release the arrow and honor their efforts
    • Shiva smiled and released the arrow, which streaked towards the cities
    • Then Shiva remembered Mayasura's piety, and sent Nandi ahead of the astra to warn Mayasura
      • Mayasura got out just in the nick of time
    • And the arrow destroyed the cities
Now the trace back to the axioms

  • Tharaka's sons reformed themselves and put in efforts to attain their goal
    • So their efforts were rewarded
  • After that, they continued to mind their own business and do good work
    • Indra was the one who got jealous
  • God is only concerned with your deeds, not with your past (so long as you've fulfilled the karmic consequences of past deeds) or with your origin
    • So Indra was rebuffed
  • Then why did Mayasura have that nightmare vision?
    • We all have to leave our bodies at some point
    • The important thing is to note the way the various asuras reacted to the foreboding of their destruction
      • Mayasura went to perform penance
      • But the sons of Tharaka reverted to their base nature
  • So what was that about Vishnu arriving as a huge bull to drink up a lake?
    • A black-swan event, a wave function collapse [14.2]
      • The important thing to note is that the asuras had an advantage, a favor which they took for granted
      • And an unexpected black-swan event arrived to take away that favor
    • In our own lives, this kind of thing happens very often - we think we have something firmly in our grasp
      • Then some unexpected and "what-the-freak" event happens, and we lose that thing
  • Now Shiva arrived to fulfill the karmic consequences of the asuras, in accordance with their boon
    • Why did Shiva disregard the law of karma and burn up most of the cities with a glance?
      • To show the vain devas that - the law of karma is a pact made by God with each of us, but God doesn't HAVE to adhere to this pact
        • God only honors the pact out of His indulgence to our desires
      • The devas got the shock of their lives
        • And begged Shiva not to jeopardize their future desires by violating the karmic pact
      • Once the devas realized that the pact of karma is not binding on God (but is rather something that God honors out of His benevolence) - [14.3]
        • Shiva restored karmic balance and allowed the universe to continue as before
        Utsideyur ime loka na kuryam karma ched aham, sankarasya cha kartasyam upahanyam imah prajah (BG 3.24)
        If I should cease to work, then all these worlds would be put to ruination. I would also be the cause of creating unwanted population, and I would thereby destroy the peace of all sentient beings.
    • Mayasura was saved in the nick of time by his own karmic consequences

sudarshan
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Postby sudarshan » 14 Jul 2019 23:26

[15]

Practical utility of the axioms:

  • What is your (Dharmic) stance on adultery?
    • (We all know the stances of the various Abrahamics)
  • Well, let's see now:
    • Axioms 2 and 3
    • Desire fulfillment - we wish to have a nice time
    • Sure, if the consequences of our actions permit it, we will be granted this gratification
    • Some attractive girl or boy will be willing to do it with us
    • Now - is that a sin? No, it's just desire fulfillment
    • But what if you aren't married? Isn't that a sin???
    • Nope, still not a sin, so long as you both aren't wilfully disregarding or trampling over the desires of some other living being
      • I.e., it's all consensual, no jealous or deceived lovers or boyfriends/ girlfriends
      • But it is inadvisable
    • Why the chicken would it be "indavisable??"
    • Let's see - axiom 3 we only get to enjoy our desires to the extent permitted by our accumulated karmaphala
      • By fulfilling our desires, we are depleting our store of karmaphala
      • We also need to think of generating an income stream for our future enjoyment
      • In a marriage, this is automatically taken care of, by the commitment to share all joys and sorrows, by the daily chores, by the sacrifices made to raise kids, get them married, etc.
      • In an adulterous relationship which is all about ***, what is the income stream? Mostly nothing
    • So, what if there was an adulterous relationship where:
      • Nobody's desires are being trampled over
      • No jealous or jilted lovers, BFs, GFs, spouses, etc.
      • Where we do good works to generate the necessary income stream
    • Well dude, that's a marriage - you might as well formalize it
      • What's the problem with the formalization? Just some kind of abhorence to the notion of "marriage?"
      • (Although - the formalization isn't essential, in fact, Gandharva weddings involve a simple exchange of garlands - that's it)
    • Basically - if you're in a relationship which doesn't wilfully trample over the wishes of anybody (note the word - wilfully); where you don't (wilfully) do anything behind anybody's back; where you aren't so focused on your own pleasure, that you forget your karmic income stream -
      • You should be fine (in fact, this is a marriage, regardless of how abhorent the term may be to some)

  • What is your Dharmic stance on LGBTQXYZ+++--*?
    • (Note: this question is often shoved into our faces as a challenge by the liberal crowd)
    • They see it as some kind of ideal, and are waiting to judge and label everybody else based on their responses
  • Let's see now - back to axioms 2 and 3
  • It's your desire, go for it (axiom 2)
  • But again - think about your future income stream (that pesky axiom 3, what to do onlee)
  • If you are in an "unnatural" relationship (no negative connotations here, "unnatural" simply refers to - not in a relationship which propagates the species) -
    • Then you have to be extra careful about the future income stream, since you don't fulfill duties of raising kids, making sacrifices for them, arranging their marriage and happiness, etc.
    • Then how about surrogate mothers?
      • How does that surrogate feel when her natural-born baby is taken from her?
    • How about adoption?
      • Yes, that should be fine
  • But bottomline is this - it is inadvisable to be in a state of mind, where you are primarily (or exclusively) focused on enjoyment
    • Why? Because you are depleting your past karmaphala, without generating a future income stream
      • Like spending away lottery earnings without a care - not a "sin," but any financial adviser, prudent counselor, or well-wisher would frown and seriously advise against it
  • So - learn to use your body, at least occasionally, to be of use to others (this generates that karmic income stream)
    • Put your pleasures aside at least once in a while, and at least partially live by the principle of "paropakararta idam shariram" (this body is meant for service to others)
    • If you do this, you might well come to realize that -
      • There is so much that can be done for others, that it is almost a full-time occupation
      • That your own concerns of "should I get my b@||s chopped off and get myself a pair of b***s instead" - all this becomes trivial
  • So, in the Dharmic way, LGBT>>> is not a "sin," you are free to pursue any desire (so long as you are aware of the consequences)
    • But even if you aren't explicitly creating negative consequences for yourself -
    • It is still inadvisable to deplete your store of karmaphala without an income stream
      • Thus, it is still inadvisable to focus your body exclusively on pleasure and enjoyment, regardless of whether you are into that LGBT stuff, or straight, or whatever


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