Indian Military Helicopters

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 09 Jun 2019 19:23

Hari Nair sir,

Do you see a potential, even if limited, naval role for the LCH? For example they could operate off amphib ships in order to support beach assault?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Jun 2019 21:31

They don't have enough firepower to support landings.The Ru KA-52 which Egypt bought along with the two Mistrals originally meant for Russia are heavy hitters.Ideally, our planned 35K t amphibs should have either STOVL fighters like USMC Harriers and future F-35 Bs, or even our NLCAs if the deck is redesigned to allow the NLCA aboard.The ALH could be tweaked into a useful naval multi-role helo, but it would require extensive redesign.An auto folding system for rotors and tail boom essential and a surface search radar, ASW/SuW console, sonobuoys and LW ASW torpedoes.This will take time and there are already several such helos in service mainly European.

srin · Post by **srin** » 09 Jun 2019 22:43

All this Dhruv auto-folding problem is confusing me - didn't HAL demo rotor and tail-boom autofolding in AI 19 ?

srin · Post by **srin** » 10 Jun 2019 00:33

Please go to ~19:00 on the further process that needs to be followed.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 18 Jun 2019 18:06

Slight OT, but this seems to be the best video that I found wrt to blade folding of heptrs.

https://twitter.com/Sikorsky/status/1140602664625016835
Ready to go: Watch how the #CH53K’s blades fold, making it easy to transport by sea, air or land.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Jul 2019 17:32

ET.
No takers for HAL's offer of pvt. sector building ALH Dhruvs.Reasons:
Twice the operating cost per hr. (2.1L) compared with firanv rivals.It's also thr most rxpensive in its class and a 3.5% royalty, plus a max. prod. allowed of 90 helos .With no largr market in sight too, industry views the offer as a " white elephant".

wig · Post by **wig** » 27 Jul 2019 18:45

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/ind ... 69433.html

Indian Army receives four Apache helicopters at Hindon. they will move to Pathankot

An additional four Apaches will arrive in the coming week, and the eight will then move to the Patankhot Air Force Station for their formal induction by the IAF, in September

excerpts

The Apache is seen as the first attack helicopter in India’s defence arsenal. India has been operating the Russian origin Mi 35 for years and the Apaches are set to replace the Russian-made choppers that are now on the verge of being taken out of service. The Mi-35 was seen as an assault chopper designed to carry troops into heavily defended territories. The two pilot Apache on the other hand is seen as a dedicated attack chopper, which according to defence analysts, will be a “game changer" in the tactical battle scenario.

“The helicopter has been customized to suit IAF’s future requirements and would have significant capability in mountainous terrain. The helicopter has the capability to carry out precision attacks at standoff ranges and operate in hostile airspace with threats from the ground. The ability of these helicopters to transmit and receive the battlefield picture, to and from the weapon systems through data networking makes it a lethal acquisition," the defence ministry had said in a statement in May.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jul 2019 19:32

Philip wrote:ET.
No takers for HAL's offer of pvt. sector building ALH Dhruvs.Reasons:
Twice the operating cost per hr. (2.1L) compared with firanv rivals.It's also thr most rxpensive in its class and a 3.5% royalty, plus a max. prod. allowed of 90 helos .With no largr market in sight too, industry views the offer as a " white elephant".

the dhruv is over powered for sea level ops as it was designed with high engine margin for 18,000 feet ops.
teh structure is also likely more rugged than those dinky Bell helis.

jpremnath · Post by **jpremnath** » 27 Jul 2019 20:18

Singha wrote:
Philip wrote:ET.
No takers for HAL's offer of pvt. sector building ALH Dhruvs.Reasons:
Twice the operating cost per hr. (2.1L) compared with firanv rivals.It's also thr most rxpensive in its class and a 3.5% royalty, plus a max. prod. allowed of 90 helos .With no largr market in sight too, industry views the offer as a " white elephant".
the dhruv is over powered for sea level ops as it was designed with high engine margin for 18,000 feet ops.
teh structure is also likely more rugged than those dinky Bell helis.

I read a tweet from one defense journo a while back where he mentioned that the import content of HAL products like it's helis are very high...Is it true?..If it is, then it probably might be the reason in addition to the high attitude specs.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Jul 2019 22:38

Katare wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Four apaches!!!! OOOOOh! The Chinese are making Indian Dhotis to shiver in!
Wtf is that suppose to mean?

Drivel like this is supposed to be some deep insight into defense matters worthy of posting and sharing on BRF....you should've learned it by now.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 27 Jul 2019 23:10

*DELETED*

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Jul 2019 23:24

Vivek K wrote:
The intent - investing in another type takes funds and affects availability overall. The LCH would have been a better investment - commonality with Dhruv and available in numbers to make an impact on the battlefield.

The LCH is no more a solution to a "heavy attack helicopter" requirement than the LCA is to the "heavy multi-role fighter (Su-30 MKI)" requirement. I think your problem is with the IAF/IA requirements for a heavy attack helicopter whereas instead of doing a needs assessment they should have started with a solution and then created a set of requirements around that. That is not always the best strategy to follow (though sometimes it can be).

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 28 Jul 2019 04:44

Not that I am supporting anyone's stand, but can say 200 LCH be better than 40 odd Apaches? The numbers are huge (and it has its own advantage), but that approach has many problems -
1. LCH is not ready, even though 15 LSP have been ordered, none have completed and God knows how many years it will take
1a) Apache is here and now - with all the weapon compliment and many decades of 'war' experience, doctrines etc.
1b) In a war (say in next 10 years, till we get LCH in numbers), I am not sure we can wave a science paper on the greatness of LCH and make the TSP armored division vanish around the chicken neck
1c) While there are many tactical fronts on Indo-pak border, pakis have one sure strategic play, attack the ankhoor sector. We know it, they know it. Our biggest and best division are positioned there, all this IBG business is to rationalize it, and Apaches are to shut down that option forever for TSP.
2. LCH maybe ours, it maybe cheap, it may get built in numbers, but it does not have many things (and will be a while it gets, a system in trial or on paper does not count, no word document is going to stop a TSP bullet) - weapon systems - not even gun/rockets, missiles are far away. They will come, but it will be a while. It does not have the armor, survivability, speed that Apache has
3. LCH/Apache is not an either or situation. Both are needed. If we suddenly discover lots of oil, then perhaps we can drop LCH and order 300 Apaches, or we continue on the current path of economic development, Apaches will form the tip of the spear and LCH the rest. As the post Balakot showed, having 250 SU30MKI is not the best option, when having 36 Rafale would have shut the F-16 down, then the MKI would have done their wonders. Thankfully our forces understand that.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 28 Jul 2019 05:05

I think it comes to requirements. If you need heavy attack helicopter and can justify that need during a requirements scrub based based on a valid and tried and tested framework (DOTMLPF for example as used by US forces but almost everyone has some sort of process framework they follow..) then you go and look for solutions to meet that identified and approved need. If you are just going to build numbers than buying the cheapest kit possible then yes you can make that argument for umpteen systems. In that case the LCA should be replacing the Su-30, the Rafale the Mirage 2000 and everything in between and one should be buying 767-F's or other commercial aircraft derivatives instead of C-130's, or C-17's or their Russian equivalents..But that doesn't always happen..Not in India and not anywhere else around the world.

Sometime force sizing and force capability is dictated by a need and other requirements. Like, I said in my prior post to make that judgement call dig deeper into the IAF/IA's requirements process and needs assessment for which they need heavy attack helicopters. Then consider when they performed an internal AOA why the heavy helicopter requirement persisted despite of that. I think sometime the easy way out is to skip any serious analysis (as would be done by any professional armed forces) and just throw out # like saying we could have purchased X instead of Y in significantly greater quantities..As if that option was not part of the analysis done by the professionals that they weighed against several other factors that led them towards one particular requirements process and procurement decision.

1. LCH is not ready, even though 15 LSP have been ordered, none have completed and God knows how many years it will take

I believe the competitors for the heavy attack helicopters were evaluated in the 2010 time-frame. What was the LCH's status then? Boeing was short-listed more than 5 years ago and this contract was only completed after several years of delay. The IAF would have probably wanted these aircraft in the 2014-2015 time-frame...

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 28 Jul 2019 09:22

So what exactly is the LCHs status? There have hardly been any updates in last few years (panwala or otherwise).

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 28 Jul 2019 13:17

brar_w wrote: Sometime force sizing and force capability is dictated by a need and other requirements. Like, I said in my prior post to make that judgement call dig deeper into the IAF/IA's requirements process and needs assessment for which they need heavy attack helicopters. Then consider when they performed an internal AOA why the heavy helicopter requirement persisted despite of that. I think sometime the easy way out is to skip any serious analysis (as would be done by any professional armed forces) and just throw out # like saying we could have purchased X instead of Y in significantly greater quantities..As if that option was not part of the analysis done by the professionals that they weighed against several other factors that led them towards one particular requirements process and procurement decision.

Totally agree... This is also what I pointed out in one of the Fighter Jet threads, where some Ppl were saying that IAF should order 100 more Tejas Mk1s...

There are three factors here:-
1) Promoting local industry
2) Getting required equipment
3) Fitting the requirements within the budget

They need to optimize things considering the above 3 factors... This analysis can be done only by ppl who are in the game...
We Mango ppl can only speculate by connecting dots based on available public information...

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 28 Jul 2019 19:20

fanne wrote: 1. LCH is not ready, even though 15 LSP have been ordered, none have completed and God knows how many years it will take

Correction - not ordered, only cleared by CCS. HAL has already started building them despite no signed orders.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jul 2019 01:31

The first LUH has come out of Tumkur facility this January. IOC is expected by end of this year. No sign of Ka-226 yet. Five years back I had said this would happen. Ka-226 is a geopolitical buy.

I am still to see the use case where the Apache can do and two LCHs can't. I will wait till somebody comes up with a real battle scenario. Apache to me is another fanboy/geopolitical buy.

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Jul 2019 06:59

JayS wrote:
fanne wrote: 1. LCH is not ready, even though 15 LSP have been ordered, none have completed and God knows how many years it will take
Correction - not ordered, only cleared by CCS. HAL has already started building them despite no signed orders.

So LCH will turn into a IAF Arjun?

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 29 Jul 2019 09:31

Indranil wrote:The first LUH has come out of Tumkur facility this January. IOC is expected by end of this year. No sign of Ka-226 yet. Five years back I had said this would happen. Ka-226 is a geopolitical buy.

I am still to see the use case where the Apache can do and two LCHs can't. I will wait till somebody comes up with a real battle scenario. Apache to me is another fanboy/geopolitical buy.

Tumour facility operational ? Are you sure on this IR.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jul 2019 11:38

Don't know about tumour facility. But MoD says that LUH's third prototype rolled off the greenfield facility in January/February of this year.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Jul 2019 11:58

Err tumour or Tumkur?

nam · Post by **nam** » 29 Jul 2019 16:41

Once the apaches are in place, I am expecting IAF/IA asking HAL to develop some of the gizmos found in Apache for LCH as well.. specially that MMW topi on the top of the rotor..

Now that MMW ATGM are flying from Mi35..

May be we will see a "heavy" version of LCH. i.e. "Medium Weight Heli (MWH)" !

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Jul 2019 16:43

sum wrote:
JayS wrote: Correction - not ordered, only cleared by CCS. HAL has already started building them despite no signed orders.
So LCH will turn into a IAF Arjun?

I don't think so. They don't have any option here. But I am not sure what exactly is holding LCH. There seems to be something fishy on the weapons front.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 29 Jul 2019 16:49

Philip wrote:ET.
No takers for HAL's offer of pvt. sector building ALH Dhruvs.Reasons:
Twice the operating cost per hr. (2.1L) compared with firanv rivals.It's also thr most rxpensive in its class and a 3.5% royalty, plus a max. prod. allowed of 90 helos .With no largr market in sight too, industry views the offer as a " white elephant".

Okay let's assess the data here. But before that, what are the Firang Rivals we can have - let's focus on one - The Bell 412EPI (All Bell 412EPI data is from Conklin & deDecker). 14 (13+1) Seater just like Dhruv (it can go upto 14 +2 for Dhruv in high density). Twin Engined just like Dhruv.

1) Max AUW Dhruv (wiki data for Dhruv Mk IV used) - 12,787lbs; Bell 412 EPI - 11,900 lbs.

2) Per hour Operating cost for Dhruv - Rs. 2, 10,000.00 (as mentioned in Phillip's post, highly unlikely with assumptions of fuel burn per hour, engine reserves and miscellaneous reserves given that fuel costs will be same, have 40% weightage and range is not far apart); Bell 412EPI - Rs. 1,05,536 @ 1US$ -INR 68.00

3) Range for Dhruv - 319 Nm; Bell 412 EPI -312 Nm

4) Max Fuel for Dhruv - 2326 lbs; Bell 412 EPI - 2214 lbs + 563 lbs optional.

5) Acquisition Cost Dhruv - Rs. 40,00,00,000.00 ; Bell 412 EPI: INR 76,50,00,000.00 @ 1 US$ = INR 68.00

6) Max Payload Dhruv - 2987 lbs ; Bell 412 EPI 1697 lbs

7) Engines Dhruv - 2 x 2 × HAL/Turbomeca Shakti turboshaft, 1,068 kW (1,432 shp each); Bell 412 EPI - 2 x PT6T -9 (2242 shp)

Based on the above, I'd say Dhruv gives more value at almost half the acquisition cost. The Operating Cost is all bull at Rs. 2,10,000 for the same metrics as Bell 412 EPI. I can say this because the fuel costs would be approx US $ 600 per hour (INR 40,800) based on range and fuel carried and as a standard, fuel costs are 40% of total variable costs with similar assumptions of operational conditions. Hence, per hour cost are likely to be around US $ 1,500 (INR 1,02,000.00) per hour.

The royalty @3.5% is no different from what commission a broker / middleman gets in the Aviation business. Without the development costs being loaded on the manufacturer, I do not see a problem. That cap of 90 is not a problem if the manufacturer does not see a large market but then there is a large market. India alone will absorb more than 100 helicopters on the civil side by 2026 as presented by Airbus last year. So anyone who signs up with HAL is actually signing on a winner and rest is all BullShite as deep as Challenger Deep.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 29 Jul 2019 17:01

sum wrote:
JayS wrote: Correction - not ordered, only cleared by CCS. HAL has already started building them despite no signed orders.
So LCH will turn into a IAF Arjun?

that guts me inside out. Seriously what a lost opp with Arjun and hopefully we don't repeat the same with LCH.
What is the common missing link here
either I am hoping for some conspiracy or should be patient in waiting for the mating of Helina with the LCH.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 30 Jul 2019 00:24

deejay wrote:
Philip wrote:ET.
No takers for HAL's offer of pvt. sector building ALH Dhruvs.Reasons:
Twice the operating cost per hr. (2.1L) compared with firanv rivals.It's also thr most rxpensive in its class and a 3.5% royalty, plus a max. prod. allowed of 90 helos .With no largr market in sight too, industry views the offer as a " white elephant".

Typical anti India view!

deejay wrote: ......I'd say Dhruv gives more value at almost half the acquisition cost. The Operating Cost is all bull at Rs. 2,10,000 for the same metrics as Bell 412 EPI. ....

The royalty @3.5% is no different from what commission a broker / middleman gets in the Aviation business. Without the development costs being loaded on the manufacturer, I do not see a problem. That cap of 90 is not a problem if the manufacturer does not see a large market but then there is a large market. India alone will absorb more than 100 helicopters on the civil side by 2026 as presented by Airbus last year. So anyone who signs up with HAL is actually signing on a winner and rest is all BullShite as deep as Challenger Deep.

Thank you for the amazing details. What terms is HAL offering to private entities? If I had the money or ability to borrow, I would jump at this.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 30 Jul 2019 00:46

Khalsa wrote:
sum wrote: So LCH will turn into a IAF Arjun?

That is the hope of my chaiwallahs! The IAF org wants a way to just kill LCH!

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 30 Jul 2019 01:25

Indranil wrote:
I am still to see the use case where the Apache can do and two LCHs can't.

Show-up to fight!!

Sorry saar but couldn’t help, this was too juicy. When it is ready I am all with you!!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jul 2019 19:35

Cybaru wrote:
Khalsa wrote:
That is the hope of my chaiwallahs! The IAF org wants a way to just kill LCH!

Its plain untruth.

IAF brass realizes they need to go local as much as possible to maximize the financial resources.

The old days of a colonial force are long over.

mody · Post by **mody** » 30 Jul 2019 23:00

Cybaru wrote:
Khalsa wrote:
That is the hope of my chaiwallahs! The IAF org wants a way to just kill LCH!

This could possibly be because of IAF general reluctance to IA owning and operating a large heli force on its own. Without a local option, the numbers will remain small and not enough to justify IA having it's own aviation corp.
Hope I am wrong and maybe just a few gents wishing in private.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 30 Jul 2019 23:15

ramana wrote:
Cybaru wrote:
That is the hope of my chaiwallahs! The IAF org wants a way to just kill LCH!

Its plain untruth.

IAF brass realizes they need to go local as much as possible to maximize the financial resources.

The old days of a colonial force are long over.

Oh I would be ecstatic if what I shared is untrue, I will buy you as many beers as you want and even pay for your uber! I am very afraid it isn't untrue.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 31 Jul 2019 00:06

From MoD report.....

Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) has successfully completed all weapon integration and firing tests in January 2019 and is ready for operational induction. Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) of LCH for Army version was accorded by CEMILAC on February 15, 2019.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 31 Jul 2019 05:44

Cybaru,

LCH's future is secure. I am afraid your beer money is not.

IAF/IA have no doubt that they want the LCH. There is no doubt that HAL can churn out LCHs at great speed. With Helina/SANT almost ready, all its weapons will also be ready. It is a matter MoF loosening the purse strings. I expect it to be next year.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 31 Jul 2019 05:54

Indranil wrote:Cybaru,

LCH's future is secure. I am afraid your beer money is not.

IAF/IA have no doubt that they want the LCH. There is no doubt that HAL can churn out LCHs at great speed. With Helina/SANT almost ready, all its weapons will also be ready. It is a matter MoF loosening the purse strings. I expect it to be next year.

I am happy you think my beer money is not safe! Make it happen! Ramana gets free beer... Bring on the orders!

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 31 Jul 2019 07:50

I would like to point out that nearly all of you are attributing the quote tag incorrectly to me.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 31 Jul 2019 13:51

https://www.aeromag.in/magazine.php

Army Chief Flies HAL’s LCH;
Says it is the Machine for Army
page 18
https://www.aeromag.in/Magazines/7704909476.pdf

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Aug 2019 00:30

Cybaru wrote:
Indranil wrote:Cybaru,

LCH's future is secure. I am afraid your beer money is not.

IAF/IA have no doubt that they want the LCH. There is no doubt that HAL can churn out LCHs at great speed. With Helina/SANT almost ready, all its weapons will also be ready. It is a matter MoF loosening the purse strings. I expect it to be next year.
I am happy you think my beer money is not safe! Make it happen! Ramana gets free beer... Bring on the orders!

Can we do mithai instead. It would be in keeping with the rich traditions of BR set by the Admiral himself. Also, some of us are pawam sdre types who don't touch the stuff.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 01 Aug 2019 02:55

Oh the offer is for Ramana only - who i think is close by... Unlike admiral, i did not do an open offer, it was targeted..

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 01 Aug 2019 02:56

jaysimha wrote:https://www.aeromag.in/magazine.php

Army Chief Flies HAL’s LCH;
Says it is the Machine for Army
page 18
https://www.aeromag.in/Magazines/7704909476.pdf

IA only not IAF.
IOC in 2017?
When is FOC??
Are they being worked through the paces?