Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

[ldev]

A lot depends on IAF experience with the Elta 2052 radar. If the 2052 performs really well on the Tejas, then there is every possibility of Israel proposing a joint venture like the LRSAM project for a 2052 derived AESA for the Su-30MKI. We have 270 of them and that's a good enough number to develop a new version of the 2052 for this. As a sweetener a jointly developed EW suite to work with the 2052-MKI can also be added. Russians will not be happy, but I guess won't be able to do much, if they don't have a system with a comparable performance.

As Karan mentioned more powerful engines would be required for almost any upgrade of the radar and EW suite and other electronics. The cockpit and MFDs can upgraded by us, without any help. The air to air missiles are anyways going the Astra - Astra-ER - SFDR route and I doubt IAF will be going for any more variants of the RVV missiles. A dual pulse Astra ER version is required as soon as possible and DRDO should start the process and MoD sanction the funds to take up the project on mission mode. A timeline of 36-40 months for IOC and start of LSP production should be set. Should be doable, as the dual pulse technology is ready and the baseline Astra RF seeker is also ready. Maybe they can also develop an Astra-IR version, with IIR seeker, like the MICA-IR.

+ 1.

That is the way forward. From Vishnu's tweets, it looks like the Russian lobby is aggressively trying to get the upgrade deal for the entire package. But honestly Elta 2052 in the interim, the Uttam in the longer term IMO is the way forward on radars. And Astra Mk1 and then variants of it, plus ASRAAM as far as AAMs are concerned. I think the RVV family should be phased out gradually. MBDAs refusal to integrate the Meteor on any non NATO/RBE2 radar is disappointing. As I understand they are willing to consider integration with the Uttam? All the more reason to develop the Uttam asap.

The Russian component of the SU-30 upgrade should be confined to engines........ AL-41s.....there is no other option.

[Karan M]

Irbis may be better in BVR than 2052 in some ways, because of its scan angles. Please see the linked video.

Second, there is a lot that may need to be done to the electricals to allow newer equipment apart from adding new engines.

This plus the dependence on Russia for spares etc means we will end up going to them for the upgrade.

EW suite, RWR, Displays may be Indian.

[negi]

Engineeringitis needs to be avoided ; just because MKI's radar can be upgraded is not a reason enough to do so . Among the plethora of platform related deficiencies that IAF faces inadequacies of BARs if any are at the bottom of the list. Even from the recent developments it is clear that IAF lacks a fast , agile and highly available fighter that can play the role of interceptor as well as well has legs long enough to run CAPs . MKI is simply too big and pricey an asset for such a role , M2K and Mig-29 lack numbers and so we are left with just the 21. BARs replacement can easily wait another 5 years if Rafales come in time and Tejas Mk1 and Mk2s start replacing the entire Mig-21 fleet. HAL is the single organization with too big a portfolio if everyone gets to float an initiative of his/her own (which does happen across various departments) big ones often get delayed.

[fanne]

WINGCO Abhinandan recomended for Virchakra

[Cain Marko]

The IAF has never really gone for major upgrades with platforms where OEM still offers upgrades and the bird is stillll active in home forces.

No way that the Russians don't get this deal imho. But it may take time since there is no real rush as Negi had said. They'll probably wait and see what happens in another 5 plus years esp. As pakfa systems become available. Izd 30 engines and sensor suite. Until then Astra upgrade is likely. The bars, hms, tvc combo is still unmatched by anything in the hood.

[nam]

Karan,
Reading up radars but doubt - when the fcr is tracking and then when you lock onto a target, is the solution computed, by whatever computer does it, take into account the path the missile has to take to hit the target to compute range to target?

Q is because from all accounts there was an altitude differential disadvantage for the MKIs.

This is before getting to the question of true range of both the AIM 120C vs R77, given that vishnu believes the amraam outranges the rvv.

With my jaundiced eyes, i only see a METEOR angle to this middle range debate.

Here my thoughts on what i know about rocket powered BVR. The powered phase is generally around 30-40KM, then it is all coasting.

Rocket power and gravity then helps the BVR reach faster. It also means fighters have to "throw" the BVR up in the air at high speed to allow it to coast further and faster. All this means, your target should be below you.

If the target is above you, the BVR has to expend energy to chase the target AGAINST the gravity, reducing it's powered flight time. One of the standard tatics when an adversary fires a BVR at you, is to fly up(and back).

All of these gives BVR a poor kill ratio.

A Ramjet BVR on the other hand is full powered flight all the way.. nullifies lot of these classic rocket BVR issues. Only Meteor had a chance to "chasing" PAF jet on 27th up to 100KM.. not R77 or Aim120C5

[nam]

HAL should just integrate a larger Uttam on a prototype Su30 and go for flight testing. Irrespective of the discussion with Russians, we should do it as it will provide leverage in our discussions.

But then I don't think HAL will do it. After all it is GoI who is paying for the upgrade. They don't care who develops the radar, as long as they get to "produce" it.

If they were serious about it, they would have used a Su30 instead of LCA as test bed. The LCA test bed is yet to fly.

The CMD has already said "We will put Uttam whenever it is available" and washed his hands off.

[Indranil]

Paging Indranil ji,
The recent discussions of IJT has brought back the memories of the discussion/post of the old design concept of IJT. In your opinion it was a better design but HAL fell back to Kiran based air intakes due to previous experience.


Unfortunately unable to find your post from the archive.
Not sure if it got lost in BRF ahutdown. Can you please share that post again?

No ji for me please

For purposes of explanation, let me go with the following nomenclature:
Config 1: layout of HJT-36 and HJT-39 layout
Config 2: HJT-36 IOC config
Config 3: Modified HJT-36 config that you see now.

I am going with the assumption that the mockup (Config 1) reflects at least a preliminary design. The fact that it was shared by the HJT-39 mockup also showed gives that assumption some credence. However, at some point of time HAL switched over to Config 2. HJT-39 renderings since then also shown config 2. So there must be virtue in this layout. For one, putting an elevator just behind the wing (as in Config 1) is not ideal in level flight. But, at high AoA, Config 1 places the elevator in clean airflow making it easier to recover.

In Config 2, the fin was definitely in the wake of the wing at high AoA of a flat spin. You can be sure of this by seeing the latest modifications in Config 3. They moved the fin back by about a meter. This means that the fin (and most certainly) the rudder must have been completely in the wake of the wing.

Anyhow I am very hopeful with these new modifications. I wrote a quick and dirty article on this and submitted it to DDR. It should come out soon.

[Kartik]

From Ajai Shukla's blog

HAL's Intermediate trainer flies again

...

Senior HAL sources tell Business Standard the IJT has undergone an extensive two-year redesign process, guided by design consultancy from US firm, Birhle, to help the aircraft pull out of spins. This was achieved by shifting the horizontal fins and rudder further down the fuselage. Now mathematical modelling indicates the redesigned IJT is well equipped to handle spins.

“HAL continued its R&D efforts and undertook modification of IJT aircraft based on extensive and comprehensive wind tunnel studies”, affirms HAL chief R Madhavan.

“We will have to conduct at least another 200 test flights to validate the IJT, including its stall and spin characteristics. But we have built 13 aircraft already and we can finish this without undue delay,” says a senior HAL designer.

HAL designers also say many useful lessons have been learned from the development of the HTT-40 basic trainer. That expertise is now being fed back into the IJT.

An example of this is the HTT-40’s modern all-glass cockpit, which will be retro-fitted into the IJT. In addition the safety equipment for stall and spin testing is being used in the HTT-40 and will be also used for the IJT.

With the service life of the Kiran Mark II having recently been extended by four years, the IJT has that much time to enter service in numbers.

[Kakarat]

Anyhow I am very hopeful with these new modifications. I wrote a quick and dirty article on this and submitted it to DDR. It should come out soon.

HAL’s HJT-36 Intermediate Jet Trainer Rises From The Ashes: A Detailed Look

[MeshaVishwas]

Very informative article and detailed.Thank you Indranil!
Also can we have all the Adminullah articles with BRF also.
Like we have Karan M saars detailed write up on the Baaz "Upg".
All in one place.

[JayS]

Excellent article IR. A delight to read. Keep writing more such quick and dirty articles.

[JTull]

13 IJTs have been built to date!

Quick google only shows only following serial nos.

S3466
S3474
S3851
S3854

[Avinandan]

However, at some point of time HAL switched over to Config 2. HJT-39 renderings since then also shown config 2. So there must be virtue in this layout. For one, putting an elevator just behind the wing (as in Config 1) is not ideal in level flight. But, at high AoA, Config 1 places the elevator in clean airflow making it easier to recover.

Agree to your points, however couple of points come to my mind :-
1. Though the earlier design (config 1) for HJT 36 was having elevators just behind the back, the HJT 39 config 1 design had the elevators correctly (higher than the wings and not exactly behind ) placed.


2. HAL already had experience of such elevators in Kiran trainers and Jaguars. Heck they could just copy the basic design from Hawk or Chinese Karakoram IJT.

My point is if Karakoram can become fairly successful with Config 1, then probably HAL would also have been successful also with that option.

So as you said , unless there is a strong virtue in the current design, HAL has just added about 10 years delay in this whole process.

[Indranil]

The first HJT-39 mock up had config 1

[Kartik]

Anyhow I am very hopeful with these new modifications. I wrote a quick and dirty article on this and submitted it to DDR. It should come out soon.

HAL’s HJT-36 Intermediate Jet Trainer Rises From The Ashes: A Detailed Look

Another excellent article IR! Well researched including the pics that show the structural mods that were made over time as various changes were implemented and tested out. Heartening to hear that the IAF is backing the project, despite the massive delays that were introduced due to issues related to the engine change and then the spin and stall characteristics. Introducing the HJT-39 will reduce the dependency on the Hawk fleet and help them stay in service longer as their usage can be managed better.

[suryag]

Anyhow I am very hopeful with these new modifications. I wrote a quick and dirty article on this and submitted it to DDR. It should come out soon.

HAL’s HJT-36 Intermediate Jet Trainer Rises From The Ashes: A Detailed Look

Another excellent article IR! .... snipped

Which idiot said this was a quick and dirty article ??? IR sir very professional grade root cause analysis and way forward kind of a write up ... even anpadh gawaar like me can understand a bit

[Indranil]

Thank you all for the kind words. I learnt about flat spin while trying to understand the changes on IJT. So there can be a gap or two.

[JayS]

HAL TP HV Thakur tweeted, re HTT40 spin test
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/11562 ... 06400?s=19

Sir
2 turn spins being done regularly. Spins in clean config done. Ac spun with add on ventrals & dorsal. Now fine tuning with single ventral. Optimisation for trainees is must.
Production infra is ready. 3 additional airframes prepared. @IAF_MCC may start evaluating formally.

[ramana]

JayS, Can you decode what the test Pilot is saying?
What is add on ventrals and dorsal?
What is single ventral?
What is current configuration of the HJT-36?
Single ventral?
How many spins is the requirement?

So once this is complete then development test is done?
And then IAF user testing?

[ramana]

JayS, Can you decode what the test Pilot is saying?
What is add on ventrals and dorsal?
What is single ventral?
What is current configuration of the HJT-36?
Single ventral?
How many spins is the requirement?

So once this is complete then development test is done?
And then IAF user testing?

Ok answering my own questions:
Ventrals fins are fins/strakes added underneath the tail to induce lateral instability.
So the TP is saying they had a configuration with two such ventral fins and now only one.
Dorsal is the extra fin that connects the fuselage to the tail. Improves directional stability.
If you see the line diagram of the HJT-36 it has dorsal fin already.
So this is all about adding the ventral fin and spin running tests.

[Indranil]

This is absolutely great news. HTT40 already has a dorsal fin. So an addon will mean an enlargement of the fin. Ramana sir, you got the rest right.

This plane is almost ready. In specifications, it is better than the PC7-Mk2. There is no need for any more imports!!!!

[JayS]

Its very common to find one or two ventral fins on trainers and even on fighters. Yes, they are for directional stability. The terminology comes from Fish Anatomy, I suppose.

JayS, Can you decode what the test Pilot is saying?
What is add on ventrals and dorsal?
What is single ventral?
What is current configuration of the HJT-36?
Single ventral?
How many spins is the requirement?

So once this is complete then development test is done?
And then IAF user testing?

I don't know exactly but I think there is a requirement that the aircraft should exhibit stable equilibrium spin for certain number of full rotations, likely 2 full rotations. I kind of have this thought floating in my mind that I have read that HAL needs to show it total 6 times. But can't be sure, as my memory is all fuzzy about it. I have tweeted to TP HV Thakur for more info, hope he replies.

Sitara has now got two ventral fins in its new avatar.

Once this is done, hopefully by end of this year, there will be IAF user trials, yes. That's what the TP is alluding to.

[Indranil]

Anantha Krishna M has brought to us the first picture of the aircraft with the dorsal and ventral fins. This picture seems to be of older times when they had two ventral fins. the aircraft has completed 5-spin trials. It is soon going in for the 6-spin trials, which AFAIK is the last standing hurdle.

[fanne]

Htt 40 has done 5 spin test successfully, requirement is of 6 spins, due in few days

[Avinandan]

Noobie Questions on HTT40:-
1. Most trainers have the exhaust end directly backwards, probably to have more air flow over wings. Any idea why HAL has chosen this downwards based flow Fangdesign ?

PS - I recollect that there were some discussion on this during the first flight pictures where somebody raised the concern of burning the tyres and was brushed off later. But unable to get those posts through search option.

2. Turkish Hurkus Trainer ( one of the latest trainers being developed) have winglets. Any idea if HTT40 could also incorporate it to reduce the drag using such winglets ?

3. Why not have the lessons learned from Sitara IJT and add wing fences as well? It will only add value to the flight characteristics or there are some disadvantages to it as well ?

4. Can the current derated Garrett engine (750 shp) be swapped to the more powerful non derated engine with 1100 shp (perhaps for an armed version with more payload) without major airframe change and design change?

[Indranil]

Noobie Questions on HTT40:-
1. Most trainers have the exhaust end directly backwards, probably to have more air flow over wings. Any idea why HAL has chosen this downwards based flow Fangdesign ?

It is a matter of engine design. I think you are comparing the PT6 vs the Garretts. PT6s are more common. By the way it has got nothing to do with the flow over the wing.

PS - I recollect that there were some discussion on this during the first flight pictures where somebody raised the concern of burning the tyres and was brushed off later. But unable to get those posts through search option.

It's not an issue.

2. Turkish Hurkus Trainer ( one of the latest trainers being developed) have winglets. Any idea if HTT40 could also incorporate it to reduce the drag using such winglets ?

Winglets reduce drag, but increase stability. That is why you don't see those on planes designed for aerobatics.

3. Why not have the lessons learned from Sitara IJT and add wing fences as well? It will only add value to the flight characteristics or there are some disadvantages to it as well ?

Yes, that's why you don't see them on aircrafts. Simple Google search away.

4. Can the current derated Garrett engine (750 shp) be swapped to the more powerful non derated engine with 1100 shp (perhaps for an armed version with more payload) without major airframe change and design change?

Engine thrust is 950 sHP. Changes would be minimal.

[Austin]

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... rvice.html

Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa

'S-400 a game changer, MiG-35 completely new'

During his interview with Krasnaya Zvezda, Dhanoa looked forward to India receiving the Russian-built S-400 air defence system, which he described as a “game changer”. Dhanoa also gave his impressions about the MiG-35 fighter, which is being offered to the Indian Air Force in a contract for 114 fighters.

Dhanoa said he had seen the MiG-35 at the Kubinka facility near Moscow. Dhanoa noted the MiG-35 had undergone major upgrades and referred to it as being a “completely new aircraft”. The MiG-35 is a modernised variant of the MiG-29 fighter, which has been in service with the Indian Air Force for over three decades. The Indian Air Force had rejected the MiG-35 in 2011 after evaluating it in a tender to buy 126 fighters.

'Upgrades of MiG jets satisfactory'

When asked about the status of Russian-origin weapons in the Indian Air Force by Krasnaya Zvezda, Dhanoa said the Indian Air Force was “very pleased” with the upgrade programmes of the MiG-21, MiG-27 and MiG-29. All these aircraft have been upgraded over the past two decades with new weapons and electronics.

Dhanoa said the Indian Air Force had used their aircraft in recent exercises and was “very pleased with the results”. He added India had requested Russia to submit proposals for the modernisation of the Su-30MKI fighter. The Su-30MKI is numerically the most important fighter in the Indian Air Force, with over 250 units in service.

[Austin]

Abhyas: A drone or a destroyer?

Abhyas can act as a decoy aircraft and a high speed subsonic missile

https://www.theweek.in/news/sci-tech/20 ... ssile.html

Minutes before 12 Mirage jets of Indian Air Force entered Pakistan airspace to bomb the Jaish-e-mohammad terror camp in Balakot in the early morning of February 26, two front-line Sukhoi 30 jets also moved menacingly towards Pakistan. Their aim was to divert attention of Pakistan's air defence mechanism, so that Mirage jets could complete their mission undetected.

The IAF mission was successful as the jets pounded the JeM hideouts deep inside the Pakistan territory. But was sending Sukhois on the attention-diverting mission the only option? Was it necessary to risk life of man and machine?

The IAF establishment believes that all such effort was part of its offensive strategic mission, and hence necessary. But now, the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) has a solution, which could reduce the higher risks to 'the man and the machine.'

After eight years of development, scientists of the DRDO's Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), on May 13, carried out successful flight trial of High-speed Expendable Aerial Target (HEAT), known as Abhyas.

After Balakot, the IAF has learnt many lessons to bolster its combat capability. The government's decision to fast-track arming of over 40 Sukhoi fighter jets with the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile and to tackle the shortage of Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) are an outcome of Balakot strike audit.

“The primary purpose is to sharpen the existing air-defence mechanism that is why it is named as Abhyas (means practice). These targets imitate fighter aircraft. These are peacetime operations to hone your skills,” explained a scientist privy to the development of Abhyas. The drone has the capability to cover the distance of 400 kilometers.

The flight test, which was conducted from the Interim Test Range, Chandipur in Odisha, was tracked by various radars and electro-optic systems. It can simulate a range of aircraft and missiles, as well as radar, infra-red and visual threats.

Official said Indian forces are spending a huge chunk of its budget to import aerial target drones to sharpen the air defence mechanism. A leading British firm exports such aerial targets to the three services and the DRDO as well. The DRDO officials claimed that one system of Abhyas, including the ground support, would cost around 40 lakh while the imported platform of aerial target costs close to Rs 1 crore.

Scientists pointed out that Abhyas can be used to do away with the post-launch recovery mode for Indian Navy, which is time-consuming and difficult in a scenario as the sea. It is used for defensive training of surface-to-air missile crews against anti-ship missiles and for development testing and evaluation of air defense systems.

But, Abhyas is much more than an aerial target. While making presentations before the three services last week in South Block, the DRDO scientists have conveyed that they do not see it for a narrow perspective.

[Pratyush]

Congratulations to HAL for the clearing the 5th spin tests with the HTT 40 and the hot and high trials for the LUH.

May the medium helo be as successful as the Dhruv and the LUH as well.

[Yagnasri]

That fact that HAL went ahead with HTT 40 without any ready purchaser (i.e. IAF) showing any interest and out of their own funds is very good thing. Hope they take such efforts in future also.

[JayS]

[JayS]

That fact that HAL went ahead with HTT 40 without any ready purchaser (i.e. IAF) showing any interest and out of their own funds is very good thing. Hope they take such efforts in future also.

Not if GOI suck them dry totally, like they have done it now. money not paid for more than 1 yrs deliveries. A pvt company would have gone bonkers by now with this kind of treatment, with cashflow totally screwed. Its not HAL which will get hurt bad, its the MSMEs supplying it.

And we talk about creating one more Aircraft OEM as competitor to HAL. GOI cannot even manage to pay one on time.

[Vivek K]

No more PC-7s!!

[ramana]

No more PC-7s!!

I think after the revelations of bribes these are on hold anyway.

[ramana]

The IAF mission was successful as the jets pounded the JeM hideouts deep inside the Pakistan territory. But was sending Sukhois on the attention-diverting mission the only option? Was it necessary to risk life of man and machine?

Such tortured writing by the week.
Makes no sense to ask rhetoric questions.
If Abhyas can be used a a decoy then say it.
And anyways the Balakot strike was in February 2019.
This flight was in May.
So what the point of asking speculative questions when it is not available?
Instead of a simple article announcing the completion of Abhyas trials they have to throw mud at Balakot.

[srai]

That fact that HAL went ahead with HTT 40 without any ready purchaser (i.e. IAF) showing any interest and out of their own funds is very good thing. Hope they take such efforts in future also.

Not if GOI suck them dry totally, like they have done it now. money not paid for more than 1 yrs deliveries. A pvt company would have gone bonkers by now with this kind of treatment, with cashflow totally screwed. Its not HAL which will get hurt bad, its the MSMEs supplying it.

And we talk about creating one more Aircraft OEM as competitor to HAL. GOI cannot even manage to pay one on time.

If HAL makes “profits”, they are supposed to return those back to GoI.

[nam]

The cost of drone being half of imported solutions gives you an idea of what we can do with our existing defence budget.

When we go local, we can maintain a much bigger force using the same budget. We can bring in numbers, without breaking the bank.

Similarly people screaming about increasing the budget need to realize, we are now buying lot of local stuff. Gives more bang for the buck.

One reason why Russian and Chinese are able to get lot of modern toys for their services, despite have budget far less than the top dog, US. It is all locally built.

[putnanja]

From Tarmak007's facebook post, HTT40 successfully completes 6-turn spin today.

Quoting from Tarmak007's post ....

Tarmak007
23 mins ·
Great news breaking in from the hangars of #HAL that the desi BTA #HTT40 finally undertakes the 6-turn spin successfully today. The flight was piloted by Gp Capt K K Venugopal (Retd) & Gp Capt S Chaki (Retd). The BTA had done the 5-turn spin on Sept 4. Congrats ARDC.

[Raghunathgb]

HTTP 40 clears six turn spin test. official confirmation from HAL.

Indigenous HTT 40 clears the six turn spin and reaches close to its certification.
@drajaykumar_ias @DefProdnIndia @gopalsutar
https://t.co/TdXvkDrvFe