J&K News and Discussion - 2016

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 05 Aug 2019 13:24

From twitter.

Rishi Bagree
@rishibagree
·
17m
Interesting Time Line #Article370

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 05 Aug 2019 13:28

g.sarkar wrote:
abhijitm wrote:X posting
I am bit confused. Is the article already repealed or the resolution is tabled? Does it require 2/3rd votes in both the houses?
Me too. All my life I was told that the removal of article 370 needed an amendment of Constitution. I remember when Mrs. Gandhi abolished the privy purse back in 1971 by amending the constitution. A very cumbersome process and possible only if one party had absolute majority, which she did. Hence, it was not possible to be done. Now, it seems that the article 370 was provisional and did not need all that stuff. I am sure this will be discussed in the news papers shortly.
Gautam

Yeh, all the time we keep hearing only 2/3rd majority will get rid of 370. If that is still true then celebrations are prematured. Let's wait and watch how it unfolds.

Arun.prabhu · Post by **Arun.prabhu** » 05 Aug 2019 13:29

Negotiate with a neighbor over the status of our territory? Especially when the neighbor has proven to be a bad faith negotiator and perennial trouble maker? Surely, you jest.

Shaktimaan wrote:I hate to be the contrarian during this time of apparent jubilation, but I don't see how this bifurcation solves anything .

The basic problem of religious radicalization is not solved. Pakistan is still right next door.

A negotiated settlement with the Pakis as a stakeholder would be a far longer lasting solution than more soldiers and guns. I'm saying this with full awareness as a responsible member of this forum.

Saral · Post by **Saral** » 05 Aug 2019 13:31

abhijitm wrote:X posting

I am bit confused. Is the article already repealed or the resolution is tabled? Does it require 2/3rd votes in both the houses?

@amishra77
"This is how it is being done.
President under Article 370, Section (3) can issue proclamation to annul #Article370 with concurrence J&K constituent assembly. President today issued proclamation that since constituent assembly no longer remains,so J&K assembly would mean same.

Since there is no J&K assembly as of today, hence all powers of J&K assembly reside in two houses of Parliament. Hence annulling #Article370 can be done with concurrence of simple majority of both houses of Parliament (and not 2/3rd). Hence fate of Article 370 sealed."

khan · Post by **khan** » 05 Aug 2019 13:32

Shaktimaan wrote:I hate to be the contrarian during this time of apparent jubilation, but I don't see how this bifurcation solves anything .

The basic problem of religious radicalization is not solved. Pakistan is still right next door.

A negotiated settlement with the Pakis as a stakeholder would be a far longer lasting solution than more soldiers and guns. I'm saying this with full awareness as a responsible member of this forum.

I agree. I don’t see what this can change in the short term.

The “Kashmir problems” remain & now there is more opposition from erstwhile GOI allies to GOI for running roughshod over the Constitution.

In the longer term, there might be value, if conditions can be improved to the point where outsiders feel comfortable buying property & settling in Kashmir - it will create a less insular, more patriotic population base (not holding my breath for this, given how the Pundits & Sikhs were driven out).

dhyana · Post by **dhyana** » 05 Aug 2019 13:33

Per TimesofIndia... BJD, BSP, AIADMK, TRS, and YSRCP supporting revocation of Article 370.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 05 Aug 2019 13:37

Is this official congress position?

Tehseen Poonawalla
@tehseenp
Whatever the govt of India has done, it's done! Let's congratulate
@PMOIndia

@HMOIndia
& now reach out to the #Kashmiris .
Jammu & Kashmir now UT with a legislature
Ladak UT without legislature.
#Article370 scrapped.
Remember the #Kashmiris are our fellow citizens

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Aug 2019 13:37

bifurcation solves many but not all problems. 1) ladhak will develop more rapidly now with more funds, quicker decision making and being free from srinagars overbearing control. All kinds of kashmiri chuts come to ladhak to inspect and order 2) jammu and kashmir as UT means LG will have lot of say in administration ..most notably police will be under LG. The previous CM's compromised the police and thus the anti terrorism ops 3) annuling 35A means demographics of J&K will change and with that delimitation etc. the CG will shift towards Jammu in medium to long term. 4) question of infiltration , terrorism will persist and will need more resolute action. But this is a HUGE step

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Aug 2019 13:38

congress with its inept leadership is on wrong side of history. its writing its own obituary... god bless congress.

siqir · Post by **siqir** » 05 Aug 2019 13:41

The resolution said the President, on the recommendation of the Parliament, is pleased to declare that, as from August 5, 2019, all clauses of the said article 370 shall cease to be operative except clause (1).
Shah also moved the Jammu and Kashmir (Reorganisation) Bill, that converted the state into a Union Territory with legislature, and hived off Ladakh region into another Union Territory without legislature.
...
Shortly after the Home Minister tabled these documents, President Ram Nath Kovind came out with a notification -- The Constitution (Application to Jammu and Kashmir) Order, 2019 that will come into force immediately.

https://www.aninews.in/news/national/po ... 805122919/

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 05 Aug 2019 13:44

manjgu wrote:bifurcation solves many but not all problems. 1) ladhak will develop more rapidly now with more funds, quicker decision making and being free from srinagars overbearing control. All kinds of kashmiri chuts come to ladhak to inspect and order 2) jammu and kashmir as UT means LG will have lot of say in administration ..most notably police will be under LG. The previous CM's compromised the police and thus the anti terrorism ops 3) annuling 35A means demographics of J&K will change and with that delimitation etc. the CG will shift towards Jammu in medium to long term. 4) question of infiltration , terrorism will persist and will need more resolute action. But this is a HUGE step

Yes political noise is gone as 370 is gone and courts don't entertain anyway. (With 370, SC has no power, if SC has to pass judgments it has to accept today's annul of 370.)

Terrorists don't need 370 anyway so they can continue and Indian Army and Airforce can fight with them.

All these 37Xs are special provisions anyway, they don't have teeth once they are annulled.

siqir · Post by **siqir** » 05 Aug 2019 13:45

so the parliament is sending recommendation to president and not amending constitution

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 05 Aug 2019 13:54

siqir wrote:so the parliament is sending recommendation to president and not amending constitution

Why does it need amendment?

Except 10-20 MPs, assuming some Congress MPs also opposed it, every one supported it.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 05 Aug 2019 13:59

manjgu wrote:bifurcation solves many but not all problems. 1) ladhak will develop more rapidly now with more funds, quicker decision making and being free from srinagars overbearing control. All kinds of kashmiri chuts come to ladhak to inspect and order 2) jammu and kashmir as UT means LG will have lot of say in administration ..most notably police will be under LG. The previous CM's compromised the police and thus the anti terrorism ops 3) annuling 35A means demographics of J&K will change and with that delimitation etc. the CG will shift towards Jammu in medium to long term. 4) question of infiltration , terrorism will persist and will need more resolute action. But this is a HUGE step

Pretty much sums it up. Also, what few people understand is that the `Kashmir' problem' or militancy affects hardly 9 of the 22 districts in
the state (maybe 11 at a stretch). Half the State is not just militancy free, but strongly with India. The valley was dominating the rest of the State and a handful of political families were holding successive central govts to ransom (finance us, else we unleash stone pelters).

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 05 Aug 2019 14:01

Arvind Kejriwal
@ArvindKejriwal
We support the govt on its decisions on J & K. We hope this will bring peace and development in the state.

williams · Post by **williams** » 05 Aug 2019 14:05

Not that it matters but Kejri is supporting the bill.

Dumal · Post by **Dumal** » 05 Aug 2019 14:08

We used to be a country where large sections of the electorate would want tax cuts/deductions or higher procurement prices for farm-goods or lower fuel prices or easier loan process or whatever and the government will, in most cases, do what much of what was expected. That is how years and decades went by.

These days, you cannot find even ten otherwise generally knowledgeable people agree on what the government will do in the following week that goes to rewrite our future as a nation.

We are in a new era! Jai Hind!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Aug 2019 14:09

Any idea why areas of Jammu are begin Kept with Kashmir? legality of Jammu and kashmir?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Aug 2019 14:10

the UT status will also sound the demise of the political families who have blackmailed India for long. the LG will rule the roost ( ask Kejriwal). I wish they had made Jammu city as permanent capital of new J&K. Also the move will provide citizenship to many folks in Jammu region who are stateless. Abdullahs/Mufti can do whatever they want..their time is up. they can fall in line or migrate to pakistan/England.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 05 Aug 2019 14:12

will there be any assembly? delhi is a special case..not all UTs have assemblies...

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 05 Aug 2019 14:13

They are following the Pondicherry model as far as I can tell. So yes JK will have an assembly

Gautam_2 · Post by **Gautam_2** » 05 Aug 2019 14:14

ArjunPandit wrote:will there be any assembly? delhi is a special case..not all UTs have assemblies...

J&K will have assembly, Ladakh won't.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 05 Aug 2019 14:14

ArjunPandit wrote:will there be any assembly? delhi is a special case..not all UTs have assemblies...

Yes, the statement clearly said UT with legislature for J&K and UT without legislature for Ladakh (it will be similar to Diu/Daman etc)

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 05 Aug 2019 14:15

Anujan wrote:They are following the Pondicherry model as far as I can tell. So yes JK will have an assembly

But Ladakh will be a fully centrally administered UT with no assembly. I wonder why two different models were selected for the newly-born UTs.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Aug 2019 14:16

1) jammu is being kept to ensure demographics can change in new J&K UT. 2) because J&K is too populous/big not to have assembly

habal · Post by **habal** » 05 Aug 2019 14:21

khan wrote:
Shaktimaan wrote:I hate to be the contrarian during this time of apparent jubilation, but I don't see how this bifurcation solves anything .

The basic problem of religious radicalization is not solved. Pakistan is still right next door.

A negotiated settlement with the Pakis as a stakeholder would be a far longer lasting solution than more soldiers and guns. I'm saying this with full awareness as a responsible member of this forum.
I agree. I don’t see what this can change in the short term.

The “Kashmir problems” remain & now there is more opposition from erstwhile GOI allies to GOI for running roughshod over the Constitution.

In the longer term, there might be value, if conditions can be improved to the point where outsiders feel comfortable buying property & settling in Kashmir - it will create a less insular, more patriotic population base (not holding my breath for this, given how the Pundits & Sikhs were driven out).

police in union territory directly comes under ministry of home. So state lost police control.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 05 Aug 2019 14:22

A few points:
1. Ladakh is a peaceful place inhabited by peaceful people. This change will help them develop quickly with some help from the central government. Separation from J&K is a good thing for the Ladakhi people. As the population is small, we shall see the results soon. Development especially in tourism sector can be done quickly. Most Indians can travel to Leh through Rohtang pass, avoiding Srinagar completely.
2. The remaining J&K will have a troublesome Kashmiri part, but this separation will help the security services to be able to concentrate more on the troubled districts. But the districts are small in number. Power should be devolved to include more of the Jammu population in the power structure. The Muslim heartlands that are also the center of non-violent agitations should get more settlers to change the demographics. But this will take time. But as the central government will be in control, the agitation will not go out of control. Regular jhapads should be given to Pakistan.
3. Most Indians support this. Those parties opposing will be decimated in the next election. I am sure this fact is known to the MPs that are creating all that chaos in parliament.
Gautam

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 05 Aug 2019 14:22

thanks for the responses apoliges.. but i am not able to access most news site..so pardon asking basic questions..but how did it happen..i could track that it was tabled in RS, but what about LS and presidential..what is the status in parliament..?

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 05 Aug 2019 14:24

This is the text of Article 370.

1 370. Temporary provisions with respect to the State of Jammu and Kashmir

(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in this Constitution,—

(a) the provisions of article 238 shall not apply now in relation to the state of Jammu and Kashmir;[a]
(b) the power of Parliament to make laws for the said state shall be limited to—

(i) those matters in the Union List and the Concurrent List which, in consultation with the Government of the State, are declared by the President to correspond to matters specified in the Instrument of Accession governing the accession of the State to the Dominion of India as the matters with respect to which the Dominion Legislature may make laws for that State; and
(ii) such other matters in the said Lists as, with the concurrence of the Government of the State, the President may by order specify.

Explanation: For the purposes of this article, the Government of the State means the person for the time being recognised by the President as the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir acting on the advice of the Council of Ministers for the time being in office under the Maharaja’s Proclamation dated the fifth day of March, 1948

(c) the provisions of article 1 and of this article shall apply in relation to that State;
(d) such of the other provisions of this Constitution shall apply in relation to that State subject to such exceptions and modifications as the President may by order specify:
Provided that no such order which relates to the matters specified in the Instrument of Accession of the State referred to in paragraph (i) of sub-clause (b) shall be issued except in consultation with the Government of the State:
Provided further that no such order which relates to matters other than those referred to in the last preceding proviso shall be issued except with the concurrence of that Government.

(2) If the concurrence of the Government of the State referred to in paragraph (ii) of sub-clause (b) of clause (1) or in the second provision to sub-clause (d) of that clause be given before the Constituent Assembly for the purpose of framing the Constitution of the State is convened, it shall be placed before such Assembly for such decision as it may take thereon.

(3) Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this article, the President may, by public notification, declare that this article shall cease to be operative or shall be operative only with such exceptions and modifications and from such date as he may specify:
Provided that the recommendation of the Constituent Assembly of the State referred to in clause (2) shall be necessary before the President issues such a notification.[11]

--------

1 In exercise of the powers conferred by this article the President, on the recommendation of the Constituent Assembly of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, declared that, as from the 17th day of November, 1952, the said art. 370 shall be operative with the modification thatfor the Explanation in cl. (1) thereof, the following Explanation is substituted, namely:—

“Explanation.—For the purposes of this article, the Government of the State means the person for the time being recognised by the President on the recommendation of the Legislative Assembly of the State as the *Sadar-I-Riyasat of Jammu and Kashmir, acting on the advice of the Council of Ministers of the State for the time being in office.”. (Ministry of Law Order No. C.O. 44, dated the 15th November, 1952).
*Now “Governor”.

My comments:
The bolded parts are what the govt used to remove this. SuSwamy had mentioned it multiple times in the public domain.

The Constituent Assembly of the State does not exist as of today. Its last sitting was in 1952.
The State itself was the one appointed by the Maharaja and does not exist.
This was a temporary provision and is not meant to be permanent.

Link - Constitution of India

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Aug 2019 14:25

the problem with india is we are like bhole baba...we dont know our own power... we dont have to be scared of anybody..we are a N power with a powerful fauj... we should be ready to crush our enemies. piddly being like mufti, abdullah, mirawiz etc need to handled like pigs and taken care of accordingly.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 05 Aug 2019 14:28

From twitter, not sure how true this is.

The Activist, #JaiShriRam, #HinduCharter
@AhmAsmiYodha
·
10m
Speed of light explained

Announcement at 11:27
President signed 11:28
Notification published 11:29
All over social media 11:30

Congratulations India

#370Gone #370ख़त्म

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 05 Aug 2019 14:32

If delimitation occurs for J&K assembly polls and Jammu ends up with more seats, then valley domination along with the Muftis, azads and abdullahs will be done too. Ssince Jammu is a much larger area and perhaps more hospitable too than Kashmir valley, Hindu population of the new J&K union territory can be ramped up by settling people from other parts of India.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 05 Aug 2019 14:32

Kashi wrote:
Anujan wrote:They are following the Pondicherry model as far as I can tell. So yes JK will have an assembly
But Ladakh will be a fully centrally administered UT with no assembly. I wonder why two different models were selected for the newly-born UTs.

200,000 people live in Ladakh. Too few to have an assembly.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 05 Aug 2019 14:33

manjgu wrote:1) jammu is being kept to ensure demographics can change in new J&K UT. 2) because J&K is too populous/big not to have assembly

Right ... and delimitation is happening which according to some on twitter will immediately reverse the balance of power between Kashmir and Jammu.
https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/11 ... 5512352768

Manu Pubby @manupubby
Delimitation exercise by the Election Commission to also take place for the Union Territory of Jammu and Kashmir.

Seats in the legislative assembly to increase from 107 to 114. Reservations for SC/ST to be included.

UT will follow the Puducherry model.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Aug 2019 14:34

ladhaki people should be allowed to vote in J&K elections...hahahahahahaa...

williams · Post by **williams** » 05 Aug 2019 14:34

Voting will take place both in RS and LS is my guess. I am still thinking about American angle. A mere statement from Uncle cannot trigger a major decision. I would say the plan came into play before 2019 elections.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 05 Aug 2019 14:35

manjgu wrote:the problem with india is we are like bhole baba...we dont know our own power... we dont have to be scared of anybody..we are a N power with a powerful fauj... we should be ready to crush our enemies. piddly being like mufti, abdullah, mirawiz etc need to handled like pigs and taken care of accordingly.

I do not think so, as far as Bhole Baba is concerned that is. This problem could gave been solved long time ago, but the ruling party had other priorities. We know what those priorities are.
Gautam

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 05 Aug 2019 14:37

^^
This was always on the plate for this LS via BJP's agenda but the changing situation around J&K prompted Modi/GOI to fast-track it.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Aug 2019 14:39

g.sarkar... as someone said we always punch below our weight. we dont have the DNA of a superpower.

khan · Post by **khan** » 05 Aug 2019 14:40

habal wrote: police in union territory directly comes under ministry of home. So state lost police control.

If this was a serious obstacle to fixing the Kashmir problem, then yes, it’s a big deal.