Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

[Yagnasri]

Make your own submarines with the expertise generated!

Unlike U-209 where HDW handed over most tech to build the sub locally, DCN has been careful on the tech transfer to make sure MDL will be reliant and cannot simply reverse engineer critical components.

We still have U 209 tech with us then? Is it possible to make it a starting point and build on it? Sorry for the mango question.

[Rahul M]

HDW was supposed to, not sure they ended up doing so or not, given the corruption allegations. The story is vaguely similar to the Bofors. MDL might still have the blueprints and might spring a surprise on us a la Dhanush. It was reported however that the manpower that was specially trained for the U209 has mostly retired or lost those skills. I do not know if similar skills acquired from the scorpene program will be directly transferrable or not.

[kit]

HDW was supposed to, not sure they ended up doing so or not, given the corruption allegations. The story is vaguely similar to the Bofors. MDL might still have the blueprints and might spring a surprise on us a la Dhanush. It was reported however that the manpower that was specially trained for the U209 has mostly retired or lost those skills. I do not know if similar skills acquired from the scorpene program will be directly transferrable or not.

I remember that the HDW tech transfer was completed to MDL, quite similar to the case of Bofors to OB. The technical expertise like trained manpower i am not sure of , This should be pursued, however IN seems to think bigger and better.

[Rahul M]

Is the scorpene particularly bigger ? I would have understood if they had opted for the soryu.

[kit]

Is the scorpene particularly bigger ? I would have understood if they had opted for the soryu.

Boss by the time yesterdays wishes were granted the military moves on, the threat scenario changes , i am sure you know what i am talking about

[fanne]

If we really have HDW U-209 DESIGN (however old it is), and we have manufacturing wherewithal to make that design real, we should build a few. Maybe MKI it heavily. Some 5-6 say with MDL and L&T collaboration will teach us a lot, more than an eventual 75I (that should continue separately).

[Rakesh]

Is the scorpene particularly bigger ? I would have understood if they had opted for the soryu.

The Soryu is considerably bigger, than the HDW 209 or Scorpene. Only the Shortfin Barracuda is bigger than the Scorpene. The Soryu would be an excellent boat for the IN. But it will likely never happen. The Shortfin Barracuda is the next best bet. But that will likely not happen either. Project 75I will likely go to Russia onlee and after the leak scandal (on the Kalvari program)...I doubt the Indian Navy wants to award the P75I contract to France's Naval Group.

HDW 209, Type 1500

Code: Select all

Displacement (submerged) - 1,810 tons
Length - 64.4m
Beam - 6.5m
Draught - 6.2 m

Scorpene Class

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Displacement (submerged) - 1,775 tons
Length - 67.5 m (221 ft)
Beam - 6.2 m (20 ft)
Draught - 5.8 m (19 ft)

Sōryū Class

Code: Select all

Displacement (submerged): 4,200 tons
Length - 84.0 m (275 ft 7 in)
Beam - 9.1 m (29 ft 10 in)
Draught - 8.5 m (27 ft 11 in)

Shortfin Barracuda Class

Code: Select all

Displacement (submerged) - 4,000+ tons
Length - 97 m (318 ft)
Beam - Unknown
Draught - Unknown

[Cybaru]

Something like a 1 MW or 2 MW small nuclear plant would be awesome in place of the sterling engine. This could quite easily allow for 60-70 day submerged operation, Lithium Ion battery and this would work great! I wonder how much the PAFC fuel cell that DRDO is working on produces. If it can produce between 500-1MW then that is amazing. Much easier and safer than working with small nuclear plants.

[Prasad]

500kW

[John]

The Soryu is considerably bigger, than the HDW 209 or Scorpene. Only the Shortfin Barracuda is bigger than the Scorpene. The Soryu would be an excellent boat for the IN. But it will likely never happen. The Shortfin Barracuda is the next best bet. But that will likely not happen either. Project 75I will likely go to Russia onlee and after the leak scandal (on the Kalvari program)...I doubt the Indian Navy wants to award the P75I contract to France's Naval Group.

I wouldn't be surprised a few more Kilo are procured or license built but I don't see russia being able to compete in P-75i they really don't have a new SSK design that they can offer. Lada/Amur is dead design and no one is going to get suckered into throwing money at it.

[Philip]

Given the deep cooperation with our N-sub programmes and supply of Akulas, Ru has an advantage over others especially on the price and integration of B' Mos and Kalibir missiles. RUboats are also generally more robust than western boats. Indian sonars and other eqpt. have also been integrated in our Kilos. There are some areas where we need western eqpt. like NHPP 'scopes, etc.
If it is to be the Amur, then it will have to be a heavily modified version with plugs for AIP and missiles as part of the design.

[Manish_P]

RUboats are also generally more robust than western boats.

Is that a factor or design, metallurgy, production quality standards or combinations of these or something else.

Could you please share some sources to corroborate this?

India (for one) operates both western and russian boats. Are there any reports (open source of course) on say the comparative maintenance cycles, time taken etc which might help?

[jaysimha]

Rbu-6000 can be used against surface vessels the Rgb-60 rounds can be programmed with a timer for that purpose and I believe we are developing some indigenous rounds to replace rgb-60. Currently an enhanced longer range version has been developed, perhaps we should add other types of rounds more specialized for land bombardment and engagement of vessels.

Yes OFB developed RBU-6000 upgrade and gives more range and safer propellant
Jaysimha had posted a pdf on that.
The fuze is a contact fuze if I recall. Don't know if it has a time/air burst option.
Let me look for it.

It is here sirji,

DRDO Develops High Range Anti-Submarine Rockets For Indian Navy
https://eurasiantimes.com/indian-navy-drdo/
Tue, 28 Aug 2018

[Rakesh]

India and Myanmar are sending a strong message to China – with a submarine
https://theprint.in/opinion/india-is-gi ... na/272240/

By Saurav Jha, 05 August 2019

[Philip]

Usually all Sov./ Ru boats are double-hulled, newer boats some partly double-hulled.Lots of titanium used for vital areas, the Alfa was totally ti. Designed to absorb some element of battle damage. When the Kursk was salvaged, barring the bow section, the rest was relatively intact. Same case with our own S'rakshak that blew up in Bombay .Read stories of sub collisions in the past.Damage suffered, etc. Some Sov. era unfinished hulls are being used in the new series of SSBNs and SSGNs under series production.Read Norman Polmar's book " Cold War subs". Gives a v.good comparison of Sov. and US subs.

[chola]

^^^ Having double hull a vessel with already confined space like a submarine is not advantage. The West doesn't do it because it is far more efficient to go single hull if you can satisfy depth, safety and acoustic concerns.

Russian boats being more "robust" because they are double hulled might be plausible but it is a side benefit not a main one that people design specifically for.

If double hulls were significantly safer then you can bet the US and the West would be using the same technique.

[Philip]

The design philosophy is quite different between western and Ru boats.There is reportedly greater redundancy in systems in Ru boats.The double hull gives several advantages- being able to place some components between the two, freeing up space in the inner hull , greater buoyancy and greater diving depths.Also as said before better able to absorb battle damage. In terms of quieting the latest Ru subs are almost ,or on par with US subs. There is little unclassified info on sonar capability, exotic sensors , performance of countermeasures and UW communication abilities, especially vital for SSBNs .British attack boats boast that at base in the British isles, they can detect vessels entering New York harbour!
The debate goes on...

[Manish_P]

Thanks. I had read parts.

And also some late& post cold-war de-classified CIA/DOD evaluation reports. However I felt there could always be some deliberate overstating of capabilities inserted in them to push for more development budgets.

Hence wanted to try another angle, preferably with source from a country which operates both the Western and the Russian/Soviet types.

[tsarkar]

HDW was supposed to, not sure they ended up doing so or not, given the corruption allegations. The story is vaguely similar to the Bofors. MDL might still have the blueprints and might spring a surprise on us a la Dhanush. It was reported however that the manpower that was specially trained for the U209 has mostly retired or lost those skills. I do not know if similar skills acquired from the scorpene program will be directly transferrable or not.

HDW gave complete ToT. As did Bofors since those days both Germany and Sweden were not major arms sellers unlike USA/USSR and were quite keen in cultivating customers. However, Narasimha Rao found buying Kilo's was cheaper than building Type 209. We got Kilo's dirt cheap on barter for tea from USSR in late 80's. The German trained MDL welders/fitters left for Middle East (Dubai/Abu Dhabi) shipyards. We evaluated Type 209 successor - Type 214 - during original Project 75 - and found Scorpene with teardrop hull better. Most major submarine deals - Australia, India, Brazil, Malaysia - DCN technology was found better than Germans, who do not propose the much better Type 212 only to select allies.

[srin]

Is the double hull really safer ? It is only the internal hull that is the pressure hull. IMO it was to solve acoustic stealth issues that they had long ago and since solved. Why make virtue of a necessity ? I suspect it added a lot of dead weight.

And even assuming that is true, then Amur is ruled out because it is not safe being single hull.

[Philip]

Amur is a one-off design meant to reduce weight and was originally intended for littoral duties , in the Baltics for example.What is being offered to India is a flexible design based upon the Amur which comes in several sizes.India can tailor it to its requirements. Nevertheless, it has yet to adopt an AIP system aboard.Performance specs are supposed to be much better than Kilos of which 6 more are entering service for the Pacific fleet indicating ghd grest faith the RuN have in itd capabilities..A recent UK report had it that the RN was in a panic over the latest Kilo 636.3s operating silently in its waters. This may be a device to get more ASW funding, but there is some truth in the report as the Kilos are very hard to detect and in Indo- US exercises," sank" an LA class SSN.

The RN HMG, were cretinous in dumping the excellent Nimrod ASW LRMPs, actually dismembering them at bases , purely for budget reasons. They are now desperate to get new ASW birds, acquiring the P-8.

Of all contenders the Amur will be the cheapest and come with the B'Mos advantage.If thr desi DRDO AIP system is available it may figure on whichever sub is chosen.

[mody]

HDW gave complete ToT. As did Bofors since those days both Germany and Sweden were not major arms sellers unlike USA/USSR and were quite keen in cultivating customers. However, Narasimha Rao found buying Kilo's was cheaper than building Type 209. We got Kilo's dirt cheap on barter for tea from USSR in late 80's. The German trained MDL welders/fitters left for Middle East (Dubai/Abu Dhabi) shipyards. We evaluated Type 209 successor - Type 214 - during original Project 75 - and found Scorpene with teardrop hull better. Most major submarine deals - Australia, India, Brazil, Malaysia - DCN technology was found better than Germans, who do not propose the much better Type 212 only to select allies.

My understanding is that the main difference between the Type 212 and 214 is that the former is made from non-magnetic grade steel and hence does not show up on MAD sensors. The sonars and other sensors might be export variants in the later. Apart from that the basic design of the sub remains the same. The Type 214 is slightly bigger.

[John]

Amur is a one-off design meant to reduce weight and was originally intended for littoral duties , in the Baltics for example.What is being offered to India is a flexible design based upon the Amur which comes in several sizes.India can tailor it to its requirements. Nevertheless, it has yet to adopt an AIP system aboard.Performance specs are supposed to be much better than Kilos of which 6 more are entering service for the Pacific fleet indicating ghd grest faith the RuN have in itd capabilities..A recent UK report had it that the RN was in a panic over the latest Kilo 636.3s operating silently in its waters. This may be a device to get more ASW funding, but there is some truth in the report as the Kilos are very hard to detect and in Indo- US exercises," sank" an LA class SSN.

The RN HMG, were cretinous in dumping the excellent Nimrod ASW LRMPs, actually dismembering them at bases , purely for budget reasons. They are now desperate to get new ASW birds, acquiring the P-8.

Of all contenders the Amur will be the cheapest and come with the B'Mos advantage.If thr desi DRDO AIP system is available it may figure on whichever sub is chosen.

Amur is dead product no navy is going to pump money into design which exists only as a paper product.

Only chance Russians have is if they offer Lada design ( while labeled as Dom version of Amur it is different design) but that has plagued with issues (openly chided by admirals as inferior to Kilo forcing design changes) and till it enters service successfully with RN with AIP don’t expect its export prospects to change.

[Vips]

Any info on how the subs from the Spanish and Swedes compare to the U Series/Amur/Scorpenes? On paper its the Barracuda derivate which looks the best prospect so far.

[Philip]

With the Scorpene leaks and French guarantee to OZ NOT to give India a superior sub, plus the Scorpene delays, cost, etc., it has at best an outside chance as it would be inferior to the conv. Barracuda that are to be built for Oz. The German U-boat offerings are perhaps the best on offer, we've operated them for 3+ decades now, and I've said for aeons that we need one western line and one Ru line.After that the next sub design will be entirely Indian.The Swedes didn't do too well with their Collins class which OZ has found most difficult to operate, the US roped in to paper over defects which made them the most expensive subs ever.

If the IN insists that the 75-Is must carry B'Mos, its going to be tough for the non- Ru boats. B'Mos NG hasn't arrived yet but will definitely appear before the first boat is built.What the IN needs to avoid is trying like OZ to fit into a conventional boat the capabilities of an N-boat.The priority is to have numbers enough to sanitise the IOR first from Paki and Chin subs, while the SSGNs/ SSNs are tasked for longer missions in the Asia- Pacific.

[kit]

With the Scorpene leaks and French guarantee to OZ NOT to give India a superior sub, plus the Scorpene delays, cost, etc., it has at best an outside chance as it would be inferior to the conv. Barracuda that are to be built for Oz. The German U-boat offerings are perhaps the best on offer, we've operated them for 3+ decades now, and I've said for aeons that we need one western line and one Ru line.After that the next sub design will be entirely Indian.The Swedes didn't do too well with their Collins class which OZ has found most difficult to operate, the US roped in to paper over defects which made them the most expensive subs ever.

If the IN insists that the 75-Is must carry B'Mos, its going to be tough for the non- Ru boats. B'Mos NG hasn't arrived yet but will definitely appear before the first boat is built.What the IN needs to avoid is trying like OZ to fit into a conventional boat the capabilities of an N-boat.The priority is to have numbers enough to sanitise the IOR first from Paki and Chin subs, while the SSGNs/ SSNs are tasked for longer missions in the Asia- Pacific.

The indian navy intends to use a new generation of Brahmos cruise missiles with extended ranges and this is likely a pre requisite for the new p75i. That said this probably does not involve extensive re engineering but the manufacturer will need to work with the indian partner hence the requirement for deeper levels of tech transfer. Once done the indian partner should be able to improvise and rebuild when required. The french seem to be sitting on the fence wrt tech transfers, there is nothing much on open media reg the swedish and German bids

[Manish_Sharma]

My understanding is that the main difference between the Type 212 and 214 is that the former is made from non-magnetic grade steel and hence does not show up on MAD sensors.

This hull is having disadvantage of maximum diving depth of 75 meters only vs scorpene 300 meters.

Soryu is best with 600 meters depth CAPABILITY.

[John]

If the IN insists that the 75-Is must carry B'Mos, its going to be tough for the non- Ru boats. B'Mos NG hasn't arrived yet but will definitely appear before the first boat is built.What the IN needs to avoid is trying like OZ to fit into a conventional boat the capabilities of an N-boat.

There are no plans for sub launched Brahmos from VLS it is more or less been abandoned. It’s Brahmos ng or alt missile from 21inch tubes.

[Karthik S]

Is max diving depth highly confidential ?

[John]

Is max diving depth highly confidential ?

I don’t think max depth is 75 meters though it will lower than depth of subs using HY Steel and also more venerable to explosions. I suspect that depth figure is the operating depth in Baltic Sea which is around 70 meters.

[V_Raman]

We evaluated Type 209 successor - Type 214 - during original Project 75 - and found Scorpene with teardrop hull better. Most major submarine deals - Australia, India, Brazil, Malaysia - DCN technology was found better than Germans, who do not propose the much better Type 212 only to select allies.

are you saying that type 209 is so bad that we were willing to waste all the ToT we got? We had not base to improve on anything there?

[tsarkar]

We evaluated Type 209 successor - Type 214 - during original Project 75 - and found Scorpene with teardrop hull better. Most major submarine deals - Australia, India, Brazil, Malaysia - DCN technology was found better than Germans, who do not propose the much better Type 212 only to select allies.

are you saying that type 209 is so bad that we were willing to waste all the ToT we got? We had not base to improve on anything there?

You infer wrong.

The Type 209/1500 was the best technology in the 80’s. The Scorpene was the best technology in the 00’s. A lot changes in 20 years.

Nokia and Blackberry that were best of breed a decade back are no longer found. Nokia had established a factory in Chennai but the technology is no longer useful. Something similar with Type 209. It was best of breed but the world has moved on.

[V_Raman]

Bofors is still usable and we are finally building it!!

209 is newer than kilo - can it be worse than kilo?

[V_Raman]

Look at what soko is doing with it - exporting it like crazy - the same basic design! We actually have an extended version with Shishumar class and we rolled out the last one only in 1994! It is a crime to get ToT and not manufacture it!!

[kit]

Look at what soko is doing with it - exporting it like crazy - the same basic design! We actually have an extended version with Shishumar class and we rolled out the last one only in 1994! It is a crime to get ToT and not manufacture it!!

no political support ..remember "kickbacks" .. instead of coming clean the ruling party just let the expertise go waste , now to decide , wasnt that treasonous ?

https://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/07/worl ... backs.html

The Government of India has filed criminal cases against six people, including the former Secretary of Defense and a top Indian industrialist, accusing them of involvement in illegal kickbacks in a contract for submarines with West Germany worth about $300 million dollars.

''It is not clear exactly who got the money, that is being investigated, but we suspect that money was paid to public servants to influence them in showing undue preference to the HDW submarine'' over a Swedish competitor, an official for the Central Bureau of Investigation said today. The Swedish company that was edged out of the competition was identified by the investigators as Kockums.

Of Political Significance

The official said that the former officials and G. P. Hinduja, a prominent Indian business executive and industrialist based in Europe who has figured in another major arms scandal that rocked former Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi's Government, are being asked to cooperate with the special investigation.

The submarine scandal is politically significant because V. P. Singh, who is India's current Prime Minister, resigned as the then Defense Minister in 1987 under Rajiv Gandhi after political pressure stalled his investigation into the sale.

The sale was completed in 1982, when Mr. Gandhi's mother, the late Indira Gandhi, was Prime Minister, and involved the purchase of several modern submarines. Investigators said the payments began in 1982 and continued until the middle of 1988.

Mr. Singh has pledged to provide a clean Government. The investigations are seen as ways of weakening Mr. Gandhi's political clout and reinforcing the four-month-old Singh Government's image of an administration that is determined to fight corruption on all levels

Led Coalition to Power

Mr. Singh led a coalition known as the National Front to power in general elections last November.

The other weapons scandal, which also came to light in 1987, involved a 1.4 billion dollar contract with Bofors of Sweden and charges of kickbacks to politicians, officials and business executives. It hurt Mr. Gandhi in the elections, because his Government was seen as tainted by corruption. The kickbacks in the Bofors deal were worth more than $50 million.

[kit]

My understanding is that the main difference between the Type 212 and 214 is that the former is made from non-magnetic grade steel and hence does not show up on MAD sensors.

This hull is having disadvantage of maximum diving depth of 75 meters only vs scorpene 300 meters.

Soryu is best with 600 meters depth CAPABILITY.

more likely more than 175 m !

[kit]

A submarine's hull is normally constructed of steel, or exceptionally of titanium. Special High Yield [HY] steel alloys have been developed to increase the diving depth of submarines, although the improved depth performance of these alloys imposes a price of increased fabrication challenges. These special steels are denominated by their yield stress in thousands of pounds per square inch -- thus HY-80 steel has a yield stress of 80,000 pounds per square inch [corresponding to a depth of 1,800 feet], HY-100 a a yield stress of 100,000 pounds per square inch [corresponding to a depth of 2,250 feet], and so on.

During World War II, American fleet submarines normally operated at a depth of 200 feet, though in emergencies they would dive to a depth of 400 feet.
Post-War American submarines, both conventional and nuclear, had improved designs and were constructed of improved materials [the equivalent of "HY-42"]. These boats had normal operating depths of some 700 feet, and a crush depth of 1100 feet.
The Thresher, the first American submarine constructed of HY-80 steel, reportedly had a normal operating depth of 1,300 feet, roughly two-thirds the crush depth limit imposed by the HY-80 steel.
The Seawolf, the first American submarine constructed of HY-100 steel, is officially claimed by the Navy to have a normal operating depth of "greater than 800 feet," but based on the reported operating depth of the Thresher, it may be assumed that the normaly operating depth of the Seawolf is roughly double the official figure.
The Soviet Alfa submarines, constructed of titanium, reportedly had an operating depth of nearly 4,000 feet.

Soryu uses NS 180 steel that is better than HY100 equivalent to HY156 allows for a dive upto 600m ; Seawolf uses HY100 and Los Angeles class HY80 according to OSI . I think the Soryus superlative capabilities is partially due to the steel used that is manufactured only by a handful of japanese companies, apart from some fancy stuff for quietening. Before one runs out to buy NS 180 steel it has to be mentioned that the higher grade steels are notoriously difficult to weld and use some sophisticated welding techniques ( read expensive)

[Philip]

The alleged HDW scandal torpedoed the further building of U- boats.Decades later the courts found no wrong-doing.A great shame.Veteran submariners reminiscing, bemoan how valuable machinery was sold for scrap in Bombay. Nothing prevents us from doing the same today.

[chola]

The alleged HDW scandal torpedoed the further building of U- boats.Decades later the courts found no wrong-doing.A great shame.Veteran submariners reminiscing, bemoan how valuable machinery was sold for scrap in Bombay. Nothing prevents us from doing the same today.

HDW scandal or not, it should not have derailed our ownership of that technology. We already paid for it.

The Scorpene should have been an Indian sub based on Type 209 technology. But instead we went clean slate and paid again for another gora sub in the Scorpene.

Again, the Koreans paid once to the Germans for the Type 209 and with that technology went to develop the Chang Bogo I/II/III classes. They exported their version of the Type 209 too because they paid for and own that ip.

Now they have yet another export contract with Indonesia for their latest sub the Chang Ho which was developed from the Chang Bogo but upscaled and fully indigenized.

Pay once for TOT and then use that to develop your own. That is the only way to do this logically.

With us, we paid one set of goras for Type 209, then another set of goras for Scorpene and now will pay more goras for P75I. How in hell does this make sense? Why not just buy from phoren yards directly and save some rupees if we never learn enough from these things to build our own?

[V_Raman]

I agree with chola. Talk about cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Sigh...