Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Aug 2019 00:39

@LakshmanPST ---> present one used = GE F414

Either that is what he meant or it is a typo in the article.

Mk2 will not use GE F404. The full potential of the platform cannot be realized.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 09 Aug 2019 02:31

Correct Rakesh. Present one implies the GE F-414-INS6 of which some examples have been handed over to ADA/DRDO for preliminary work related to the MWF.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 09 Aug 2019 02:44

sankum wrote:There were series of tweets over time not with exact numbers.
1.The production line will not stop after 16 FOC mk1 and will quickly move to 16 mk1a as on the outward both are same ,only difference is Internal as worried people were asking for mk1a is not developed or still sanctioned.
2. Several varients are being developed and the trainer versions will come above the 16 nos single seater/year. (Now the first mk1 trainer will only roll out in second half of 2021 as SOP was only in early 2019 .So only in 2021-22 full production rate of 24/year can be expected instead of 2020-21 in first page of this thread.)
3.SPORT trainer production will take place after mk1a production will be over.
4.7 years for Tejas mk2 to be ready for production..(2027).
5. AMCA production only in 2035.

Based on above data I projected . And news sources have repeatedly said that mk1a production will be over by 2024-25.
For NLCA mk1 Trainer early news sources said 19 nos will be ordered for training purpose and also Indrani input as order being considered for IN
Six months delay or even one year delay will not make much difference.

So, 16 MK1-FOC this FA 19-20 itself is huge achievement.. and we have a busy schedule in coming months.

Waiting for first one SP21 to come out quickly.. any paanwala news when this can happen ?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 09 Aug 2019 11:28

viewtopic.php?p=2370767#p2370767

5) Updates to the RBE2 radar are also on the cards as part of the F4.1 variant. It will include a ground-moving target indicator (GMTI) mode. A sharper synthetic aperture radar (SAR) mode will also be available for radar mapping at stand-off ranges, in all weather. There will also be improvements to the IFF (If Friend or Foe) system

Interesting that RBE2 will get an update later to get GMTI mode. Uttam will get it from day 1 with most work done already with the Netra program.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 09 Aug 2019 12:09

It probably has that capability and what they are speaking off is an enhancement in GMTI capability via upgrade.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 09 Aug 2019 22:33

I guess this is the reason for delay in Mk1A contract...
They would have waited for UTTAM...

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 11 Aug 2019 12:06

They can split Mark1A order 40-40. The second part with Uttam.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 11 Aug 2019 13:08

Anantha Krishnan M
@writetake
2 hours ago
More
#KatreMemorialLecture

HAL in the final stages of negotiation for #Tejas additional orders, says @nawegate. @DRDO_India

(The pending 83...)

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 12 Aug 2019 13:53

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 783685.ece
MS Velpari takes over as Director Operations at HAL.

Velpari was instrumental in sustained growth of LCA production from initial two in FY 2015-16 to eight in FY 2018-19. He took path breaking steps with the strategic outsourcing of structural assemblies of LCA-Tejas, which is poised to grow further. He played a key role in implementing the task of indigenisation of 1850 types of castings, forgings, rolled rings and rubber products at F&F Division.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 12 Aug 2019 19:23

First confirmation of slower production of Tejas mk1 @ 12/year.

. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is working towards completing by December the first Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) made to the Air Force’s final operational clearance (FOC) configuration, according to R. Madhavan, CMD of HAL.
Beyond that, we aim to produce one LCA every month,” he said.
Which was why, he said, even if the order for the 83 LCAs came in, “We can take it up only if it comes in with the money associated with it.” The money was needed for materials, besides design work taken up with development body, the Aeronautical Development Agency.

https://idrw.org/hal-awaits-dues-and-lc ... ore-207258

My projection
2019-20 4 nos Tejas mk1 FOC
2020-21 12 nos Tejas mk1 FOC
2021-22 8 nos Tejas mk1 Trainers
Tejas mk1a may start only in 2021-22?

khan · Post by **khan** » 12 Aug 2019 22:16

^ looks like money is what is holding up Tejas production.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 12 Aug 2019 23:08

IAF is slowly strangling LCA just like Arjun.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Aug 2019 23:23

sankum wrote:First confirmation of slower production of Tejas mk1 @ 12/year.
. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is working towards completing by December the first Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) made to the Air Force’s final operational clearance (FOC) configuration, according to R. Madhavan, CMD of HAL.
Beyond that, we aim to produce one LCA every month,” he said.
Which was why, he said, even if the order for the 83 LCAs came in, “We can take it up only if it comes in with the money associated with it.” The money was needed for materials, besides design work taken up with development body, the Aeronautical Development Agency.

https://idrw.org/hal-awaits-dues-and-lc ... ore-207258
My projection
2019-20 4 nos Tejas mk1 FOC
2020-21 12 nos Tejas mk1 FOC
2021-22 8 nos Tejas mk1 Trainers
Tejas mk1a may start only in 2021-22?

HAL is talking like its an independent business. No need for such public statements unless they want to setup adversarial relationship. Even during the elections the previous HAL chairman Raju, was talking nonsense.

I see some political background to this bakwas.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 13 Aug 2019 00:23

Every statement from HAL has political background to its buckwaas.

How does one explain a company wants capital for setting up the line and commercial rates for the stuff that line produces. And all profits go to paying salaries of unionised staff. It needs divestment before OFBs.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 13 Aug 2019 00:57

HAL (along with ADA and other agencies) was paid by the government for all the R&D (some 1.5 billion dollars so far). This was not their own equity money. That they cannot charge towards 83 or 200 future LCAs. There cost should be limited to (what is called marginal cost) what it takes to produce the 83 LCA (minus the R&D cost, that was already paid by GOI) - setting up assembly over and above the current (remember, for the current LCA assembly - IAF/IN has already paid some 50-60%) + cost of running it + some reasonable profit. That number cannot be 500 crores per LCA. I think some cost escalation is for private sectors to built capacity and maybe they are amortizing it. But I suspect there is lots of double counting going on.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Aug 2019 01:30

They are just covering their rears. IAF won't sign and once it does sign, it will say things are delayed and HAL can't deliver yada yada... HAL has every right to call this out before hand.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Aug 2019 02:27

ramana wrote:
sankum wrote:First confirmation of slower production of Tejas mk1 @ 12/year.

My projection
2019-20 4 nos Tejas mk1 FOC
2020-21 12 nos Tejas mk1 FOC
2021-22 8 nos Tejas mk1 Trainers
Tejas mk1a may start only in 2021-22?
HAL is talking like its an independent business. No need for such public statements unless they want to setup adversarial relationship. Even during the elections the previous HAL chairman Raju, was talking nonsense.

I see some political background to this bakwas.

The reason is this.

However, after recent price negotiations on this purchase, HAL had not received any order yet. Right now, money was its first concern, Mr. Madhavan said. Fresh orders apart, the defence PSU urgently needs the cumulative arrears of around ?20,000 crore from the IAF. Last year, HAL had to borrow ?1,000 crore from banks in an unprecedented act for paying staff salaries and routine expenses. “Until now we have somehow managed [our finances] with our funds and from bank loans. I hope something will come through soon for us to maintain the level.” Expectation is also on the revised estimates in the defence budget and some money from deliveries to the Army.”

This is squarely on the GOI. They didn't fund the IAF appropriately and manage the process to have funds released to HAL on time.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Aug 2019 02:38

So Karan, this is a proverbial case of the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing?

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Aug 2019 02:46

^^^
In the past years, any “profit” HAL made were returned to the GoI.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 13 Aug 2019 02:48

Karan M, HAL has 14,000cr cash reserves! And it is earning interest on delayed payments. Nothing is as dire as the bunkum statement by them makes it out to be.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 13 Aug 2019 12:44

First FOC aircraft which was predicted to come in June 2019, is atleast delayed till Dec 2019. Its possible that no FOC aircraft will be manufactured in 2019-2020. The plan to foist unreasonable requirements like AAR for FOC has worked. I think it will take around 3+ years to manufacture 24MKI FOC LCA.

Thereafter 83 LCA MKIA might follow. Long lead items take 3-4 years to manufacture. Hence it's unlikely first MKIA will come before 4 years after contract is signed with HAL

raghuk · Post by **raghuk** » 13 Aug 2019 13:06

JTull wrote:Karan M, HAL has 14,000cr cash reserves! And it is earning interest on delayed payments. Nothing is as dire as the bunkum statement by them makes it out to be.

HAL "had" that money, not anymore.

kit · Post by **kit** » 13 Aug 2019 14:37

Out of curiosity, does the PSU get paid once an order is made or only when deliveries happen ? .. is this pro rata ? .. I suppose with complex systems that gets modified with each tranche it could be different for each "sub orders" ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Aug 2019 14:56

JTull wrote:Karan M, HAL has 14,000cr cash reserves! And it is earning interest on delayed payments. Nothing is as dire as the bunkum statement by them makes it out to be.

That's still on GOI. If HAL is sitting on cash reserves and should use them to "cover" the IAFs owed costs or some program like the LCA Mk1A, then the GOI should tell them to do so. You can't have a company being asked to operate as a profit making, independent entity and then ask them to cover what the customer owes. If the GOI's position is this is anyway "their money" (as versus being partly owned by other equity owners), then they will have to find a way to get it transferred and repay HAL.
Simple point - no follow on Akash orders, no follow on Tejas Mk1A orders, talk of this import, that import. Whither Make in India?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 13 Aug 2019 16:10

If IAF wants HAL to work like a efficient company, it should make timely payments. Only if payments are delayed due to some contractual issues then it would be HAL’s fault.

Timely payments allow for circulation of money and materials and so IAF should try to be more responsive ( if HAL is telling the truth).

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 13 Aug 2019 16:17

Gyan wrote:First FOC aircraft which was predicted to come in June 2019, is atleast delayed till Dec 2019. Its possible that no FOC aircraft will be manufactured in 2019-2020. The plan to foist unreasonable requirements like AAR for FOC has worked. I think it will take around 3+ years to manufacture 24MKI FOC LCA.

Thereafter 83 LCA MKIA might follow. Long lead items take 3-4 years to manufacture. Hence it's unlikely first MKIA will come before 4 years after contract is signed with HAL

From first page of this thread:

Future Milestones Planned in 2019 and 2020

• SP-21 (FOC variant) - Assembly of sets of air fame have already started. Expected to have a first flight in October 2019.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 13 Aug 2019 19:15

Vivek K wrote:If IAF wants HAL to work like a efficient company, it should make timely payments. Only if payments are delayed due to some contractual issues then it would be HAL’s fault.

Timely payments allow for circulation of money and materials and so IAF should try to be more responsive ( if HAL is telling the truth).

It is very unusual to get payments back on time in India, especially when dealing with Govt. institutions. But also the private sector is not immune as well when it comes to disbursing payments late to vendors.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 13 Aug 2019 19:40

Below is tweeted by DrAjayKumarIAS handle (I don't know who he is but he is a verified Blue Tick handle) and his tweet has been retweeted by official HALHQBLR, so it seems authentic. My limited understanding of the Tweet suggests that HAL will now accept machined components quality verified by those 2 Third Parties. This helps as maybe HAL was doing this work themselves. Can Gurus clarify how significant it is?

https://twitter.com/drajaykumar_ias/sta ... 64704?s=19

Entry into Aero-components mfg becomes easier. @HALHQBLR LCA Div. starts using Third Party Inspection (TPI) for machined components. FIRST EVER TPI orders issued to M/s IRCLASS,Mumbai & M/s TRIGO,Pune.
@SIDMIndia @aidat_tn @ASSOCHAM4India @DIIA_Defence @DefProdnIndia @Codissia

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 13 Aug 2019 20:40

Zynda wrote: It is very unusual to get payments back on time in India, especially when dealing with Govt. institutions. But also the private sector is not immune as well when it comes to disbursing payments late to vendors.

I have run a medium scale manufacturing company in India and well understand what you’re saying. But the better companies pay quick and up front. Dipping into reserves may require MOD approval. Therefore that may not be an easy option.

You cannot want the best from HAL yet not pay it well too! How long can IAF delay paying Dassault or Lockheed Martin? Why the double standard? It isn’t like IAF is a revenue revenue generating entity that is waiting on receivables. Perhaps taking advantage of an Indian company to finance their CAPEX needs?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Aug 2019 21:32

Time saving. HAL can certify 3rd party firms to do this on their behalf.

Bhaskar_T wrote:Below is tweeted by DrAjayKumarIAS handle (I don't know who he is but he is a verified Blue Tick handle) and his tweet has been retweeted by official HALHQBLR, so it seems authentic. My limited understanding of the Tweet suggests that HAL will now accept machined components quality verified by those 2 Third Parties. This helps as maybe HAL was doing this work themselves. Can Gurus clarify how significant it is?

https://twitter.com/drajaykumar_ias/sta ... 64704?s=19

Entry into Aero-components mfg becomes easier. @HALHQBLR LCA Div. starts using Third Party Inspection (TPI) for machined components. FIRST EVER TPI orders issued to M/s IRCLASS,Mumbai & M/s TRIGO,Pune.
@SIDMIndia @aidat_tn @ASSOCHAM4India @DIIA_Defence @DefProdnIndia @Codissia

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 13 Aug 2019 21:50

Bhaskar_T wrote:Below is tweeted by DrAjayKumarIAS handle (I don't know who he is but he is a verified Blue Tick handle)

He is Secretary Defense Production. The topmost babu in DP. He is quite visible on Twitter. Seems like a proactive guy.

Re, HAL and payment, HAL is now a listed company. GOI cannot treat it like its own bitch now. If I were a shareholder, I would be mighty pissed with GOI.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Aug 2019 00:39

Gyan wrote:First FOC aircraft which was predicted to come in June 2019, is atleast delayed till Dec 2019. Its possible that no FOC aircraft will be manufactured in 2019-2020. The plan to foist unreasonable requirements like AAR for FOC has worked. I think it will take around 3+ years to manufacture 24MKI FOC LCA.

Thereafter 83 LCA MKIA might follow. Long lead items take 3-4 years to manufacture. Hence it's unlikely first MKIA will come before 4 years after contract is signed with HAL

Who predicted it would come by June 2019?? Provide the proof. It was always stated that the first FOC Tejas would roll out by the end of the year.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 14 Aug 2019 14:46

Dileep wrote:Heard in the wind

dileep sir, your posts make the day....

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Aug 2019 02:01

Unit movements are usually classified.
So deleted them.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 15 Aug 2019 02:18

Dileep Saab:

Any word on installing a missile jammer pod on Mk1? As the recent events showed, lack of a jammer pod will be a severe disadvantage in battle

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Aug 2019 23:17

Uttam AESA radar updates from the DRDO Chief

article link

He said the AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar is currently undergoing trials. “We had displayed our AESA radar fitted on Tejas during Aero India 2019. It is currently undergoing flight trials and we will complete it by end of this year. The results are extremely satisfactory. These are capable of detection, tracking, imaging and navigation,” Dr Reddy said.

chola · Post by **chola** » 16 Aug 2019 00:10

QUESTION: Can HAL's Nasik line and the eco-system of 400 local suppliers be saved by building the Tejas and its followons like the NLCA and MWF?

I am worried sick by HAL telling us that this line will close and so will the suppliers unless the IAF continues to buy the MKI which they are reluctant to do beyond 18 for replacements.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 21 Aug 2019 19:30

Where is SP28 in the picture ?

https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/116 ... 75360?s=19

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 21 Aug 2019 20:19

Gyan wrote:IAF is slowly strangling LCA just like Arjun.

IAF can't. They have no decision or financial authority. Wake Up. You have read enough and know enough.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 21 Aug 2019 20:22

Vivek K wrote:If IAF wants HAL to work like a efficient company, it should make timely payments. Only if payments are delayed due to some contractual issues then it would be HAL’s fault.

Timely payments allow for circulation of money and materials and so IAF should try to be more responsive ( if HAL is telling the truth).

IAF does not control the time of payment. MoD does. Chief does not have financial authority beyond few crores.