Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

nash · Post by **nash** » 19 Aug 2019 21:57

MeshaVishwas wrote:Great news if true.

IAF set to shelve Jaguar engine upgrade, could buy more Su-30 MKIs instead
https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-set-to- ... ad/278687/
-Snehesh Alex Philip

This can be mere speculation but seems like we may get more than 18 Su-30MKI.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Aug 2019 21:58

LakshmanPST wrote:
I think the ideal plane-to-plane replacement of Jaguar would be MWF...

Nope! Jaguar payload is 3 ton (actual payload not Brochure payload), which Tejas Mark 1 can EASILY manage.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 19 Aug 2019 22:32

Manish_Sharma wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:
I think the ideal plane-to-plane replacement of Jaguar would be MWF...
Nope! Jaguar payload is 3 ton (actual payload not Brochure payload), which Tejas Mark 1 can EASILY manage.

Correct, also there is no need to do exactly what the Jaguar did, the Tejas can have pretty much the same effect and probably more using precision smart weapons (where our focus needs to be anyway).

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 19 Aug 2019 22:45

The Upgrade plan was for some 80 Jaguars it can be divided equally between Su-30MKI and Tejas MkIA.

20 Su-30MKI for 40 Jaguars in 1:2 ratio
40 Tejas MkIA for 40 Jaguars in 1:1 ratio

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 19 Aug 2019 22:49

This seems like a move to keep HALs MKI line chugging along. So, we can expect another 40-60 MKI, if this news has any merit.

Should work well for Tejas too. They will have to buy more so as to compensate for the numbers loss.

Anyone know how many jags are Darin I?

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Aug 2019 22:53

Jags and Mirage have the capability of low level flying which is very useful in the mountains. Given 3/4 of our border with Pak & China is mountain valleys, it is a useful capability.

Jags and Mirage can fly through Himalayan valleys and pop up on Tibet without warning. The Balakot strike also involved valley flying to dodge the radars. Rafale bring the same capability.

Su30 are not that good in this area. We lost a Su30 with our pilots training to fly in the valley in NE.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 19 Aug 2019 23:00

At present 116 nos are in service of which 90 are single seater and 26 trainers. 61 nos single seater are being upgraded with ELTA 2052 radar along with Darin 3 upg. It seems post 1984 jaguars are being upgraded to last beyond 2034 and rest will be retired on completion of 50 year calendar life. 20 trainers post 1984 were to receive engine upgrade, for a total of 80 jaguar engine upgrade.

khan · Post by **khan** » 19 Aug 2019 23:03

nam wrote:Jags and Mirage have the capability of low level flying which is very useful in the mountains. Given 3/4 of our border with Pak & China is mountain valleys, it is a useful capability.

Jags and Mirage can fly through Himalayan valleys and pop up on Tibet without warning. The Balakot strike also involved valley flying to dodge the radars. Rafale bring the same capability.

Su30 are not that good in this area. We lost a Su30 with our pilots training to fly in the valley in NE.

Why is this? Given that the SU-30 is FBW (albeit is analog), can’t the joystick be slaved to a terrain mapping radar or even topographical maps saved into a mission computer?

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Aug 2019 23:15

khan wrote:
nam wrote:Jags and Mirage have the capability of low level flying which is very useful in the mountains. Given 3/4 of our border with Pak & China is mountain valleys, it is a useful capability.

Jags and Mirage can fly through Himalayan valleys and pop up on Tibet without warning. The Balakot strike also involved valley flying to dodge the radars. Rafale bring the same capability.

Su30 are not that good in this area. We lost a Su30 with our pilots training to fly in the valley in NE.
Why is this? Given that the SU-30 is FBW (albeit is analog), can’t the joystick be slaved to a terrain mapping radar or even topographical maps saved into a mission computer?

I don't think Su30 has terrain mapping radar. Morover it was not designed for low flying. It is an air dominance fighter, powerful radar, large loadout, fight way up in the sky.

Rafale is all of these included. Sensor fusion with single pilot. The French tom tom the nip of the earth flying of rafale as if there is no tomorrow.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 19 Aug 2019 23:19

so, the Jaguars flying in the lo-lo mode, the MKIs can pair up and cross the mountains which are well within the Jaguar range? either to the Tibetan side or the Afghan side

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 19 Aug 2019 23:40

Manish_Sharma wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:Great news if true.

IAF set to shelve Jaguar engine upgrade, could buy more Su-30 MKIs instead
https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-set-to- ... ad/278687/
-Snehesh Alex Philip
Sad news, correct replacement for these Jaguars is Tejas Mk 1.
THERE SHOULD BE EQUAL ONE TO ONE REPLACEMENT OF Jaguars by Tejas.
I am going to tweet Both PM and RM

Payload wise, yes. Range and endurance wise, not exactly. The Jaguar has a longer range and greater endurance than the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A, at least without refuellers and we all know how short the IAF is on refuellers.

the Tejas has somewhat adequate numbers in the pipeline for now, if the Mk1A order comes through soon so that the line is not idle. But, the Medium Weight Fighter is the one that will be critical. Being sized around the Mirage-2000, it is the ideal size for a single seater and will be a far better replacement for the Jaguar.

The issue at hand is the HAL assembly line that is likely to go idle unless new orders for the Su-30MKI are placed. Placing any new Tejas orders will not bring any additional fighters out since HAL already has its hands full and hasn't yet managed to ramp up the production to 24 per annum.

What the IAF is contemplating is to basically buy possibly a couple squadrons more of the MKI and not invest in the Jaguar upgrade. When the MWF and Rafale/MMRCA lines begin churning out fighters, that time they will place additional orders on those to replace the Jaguar fleet entirely. This may lead to the Jaguar being retired a little earlier than was planned if the Jaguar re-engining had gone through.

TBH, where the Jaguar is a good airplane, with few aerodynamic vices for the role it was designed for (low level penetration and interdiction), even back in the day when it was inducted, it was known as an under-powered airplane. RAF pilots used to joke that it could only take off fully loaded thanks to the curvature of the earth. Even with avionics upgrades, it is still an airplane designed for a single role, requiring fighter escorts to protect it from enemy fighters. And if the cost of the re-engining was truly as high as 2 or 2.5 Jags = 1 Rafale or Su-30MKI, then its a no-brainer to ditch the re-engining and go for new air frames. They'll have 40 years of life and being fully multi-role fighters, are way more useful than re-engined Jags.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 19 Aug 2019 23:45

Very well put Saar.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 19 Aug 2019 23:54

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1163511565858926593 ----> The oldest Jaguars with NavWASS & RR Mk804 engines, were never meant to be upgraded with new engines. These anyway had to be replaced with newer aircraft (Su-30/LCA) - appx 40. There's no connection between 40 more aircraft & engine upgrade.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1163512821268619264 ----> Whether any more Jags, except the 40 oldest ones will be grounded, seems rather unlikely. The last batch of Jaguars were built between 2005 & 2010. They're going to be around till 2040-45 no less. None of these will be grounded. They'll even go through one av-combat upgrade.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1163515451957080064 ---> Jag Teeth?

ASM
Sensor Fused Weapons
New Gen LGB
SAAW
New Gen CCM
Laser pod
Recon pod
AESA radar
EW suite
Software Defined Radio
ODL under integrating
New Gen HMDS
Glass Cockpit
Next gen NAV features
Conventional bombs, rockets, guns, etc, etc

======================================

https://twitter.com/wasimabrar/status/1 ... 7454433280 ---> Question: Sir, just a small query. Y can't we replace all of Jags, MiG 27s with Tejas. Tejas is not that bad after all. With small RCS it can easily come in for these veteran acs.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1163513303118671876 ---> Ans: Tejas will replace all these aircraft slowly. But it doesn't have a small RCS. It has a conventional design and RCS is similar to 4th generation aircraft.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 20 Aug 2019 00:07

52nos jaguars were built in last batches 35 single+17 trainers. Will serve beyond 2040.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Aug 2019 00:32

Just a few weeks ago when HAL offered to make 1 squadron of SU-30s the IAF balked as they relied on jag upgrade etc.
How things change quickly.!

There is Su-30 production capacity while Tejas capacity is being built.
So makes sense to ensure numbers don't go down.
Hope these newer Su-30s already come with upgraded avionics and strong points.
That would increase the IAF combat capability.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 20 Aug 2019 01:57

40 is also the additional number which many of BRFite wanted to be placed for MK1FOC for stablizing production line.

So its Mk.1 vs MKI.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Aug 2019 02:06

There is a defnews ( print) report that the Jag Honywell engine, and Darin-3 upgrade plans, pending for ages, are being dumped due to high cost ( 2 upgrades equal to one bird) and extra MKIs will be acquired to meet the numbers. On paper it sounds great- the MKIs are far more versatile and capable compared to the Jags.Tactical strike aircraft numbers could suffer though.The Q that one asks is how come mere engine replacements for Jags cost that much? Even an F- 35's engine is in the region of between $10-15M. Is there any other confirmation of this report?

Sorry, just saw the posts in the IAF thread

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Aug 2019 03:02

Philip, Engine plus integration.
Honeywell upped the price by 30% for the engine.

I think with more variety of weapons the Su-30 MKI will do more.

Most likely the fleet will standardize on Tejas family, Su-30MKI, and Rafale.

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Aug 2019 03:13

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1163512821268619264 ----> Whether any more Jags, except the 40 oldest ones will be grounded, seems rather unlikely. The last batch of Jaguars were built between 2005 & 2010. They're going to be around till 2040-45 no less. None of these will be grounded. They'll even go through one av-combat upgrade.

sankum wrote:52nos jaguars were built in last batches 35 single+17 trainers. Will serve beyond 2040.

Around 2 squadrons (plus reserves) will remain for another 15-20 more years.

3-4 squadrons need to be replaced over the next 5-10 years.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 20 Aug 2019 03:25

Total Jaguar Fleet of IAF is as follows:-
1) 40 Nos. built by SEPECAT, early 1980s
2) 45 Nos. assembled by HAL, mid 1980s
3) 31 Nos. license-built by HAL which were last delivered between 1988-1991
4) 15 Nos. built by HAL and delivered by 1999
5) 37 Nos. (20 Single seat + 17 Trainers) built by HAL and delivered by 2008

Source--->
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... foIqAD1lgo

This is what I guess was the plan---->
I think the first batch of SEPECAT-built Jaguars were already retired...
The second batch of HAL assembled Jaguars were never planned to be re-engined and will be retired soon (around 2025?)...
Only 3rd, 4th & 5th batches were planned to be re-engined...
The 3rd batch of Jaguars are 30 years old... I don't think they'll be retired until atleast 2030..
The 52 jets of 4th and 5th batches are only 11-20 years old and won't be retired anytime soon... May retire post 2040...

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 20 Aug 2019 03:43

So, by 2027 our squadron strength will be
14 Su30 MKI (assuming we order 1 more)
4 MIG 29 (assuming we order 1 more)
3 M2k
2 Rafale
3 Jaguars
2 Tejas Mk1
4 Tejas Mk1A (hopefully)

That's 32 squadrons only...
-
Let's hope MWF and MMRCA production starts by then...

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 20 Aug 2019 03:53

I am sad but I believe given options IAF has it is the right move.As mentioned above since brits sold us a lemon to kill HF-24 the right revenge would have been mix of su-30 and Tejas showed up behind rear of brits.

Re-engine started with Honeywell demanding 5.8 million per engine (total of 200 no to be procured)including engineering and certification of the new engines however they were the sole agency for everything using their 40 KN engine they were building in Taiwan for their jet. Since it was expensive we decided to do engineering and certification in-house since HAL has capacity with jaguar, Honeywell threw in spanner with demanding 10.6 million per aircraft almost double in their last quote in 2018 when the proposal was rejigged, mind you HAl doing all the customization and certification now. Honeywell pisses HAL so much that they charged money for HAL executives visiting facility in Arizona.

The casualty is specific capability of IAF, I was impressed by jaguar max concept HAL put at last AI show. Upgrade should be pursued in my opinion with Derivative of Kaveri and in future jaguar max can be manufactured by HAL brand new and in future conversation to unmanned machines like one that was planned for mig 21’s. That will bring true engineering skills to manufacture UCAV with benefits to IAF at each milestone.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Aug 2019 11:35

I dont think this factual at all. Jaguars are actually going to be far worse in dealing with low flying in valleys than Su-30s because of the fact the Su-30 has much greater margin reserve in terms of thrust to get out of trouble.

Losing a Su-30 in the valley or anywhere, doing low-flying is just combat aviation. It is amongst the riskiest professions in the world.

nam wrote:Jags and Mirage have the capability of low level flying which is very useful in the mountains. Given 3/4 of our border with Pak & China is mountain valleys, it is a useful capability.

Jags and Mirage can fly through Himalayan valleys and pop up on Tibet without warning. The Balakot strike also involved valley flying to dodge the radars. Rafale bring the same capability.

Su30 are not that good in this area. We lost a Su30 with our pilots training to fly in the valley in NE.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Aug 2019 11:39

Replacing the Jaguars with the Su-30 is a no-brainer provided we can manage the OpEx. The Su-30 in many ways is the IAF equivalent of the USAF F-15 E family. A long range muli-role striker.

At the very least, we should have some 5 squadrons upgraded to the SM1 standard - Irbis-E/AL-41F/ASRAAM/Derby Mk3, these can be tasked primarily for air-superiority.

wig · Post by **wig** » 20 Aug 2019 17:21

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/on-mig- ... ome-livetv

IAF chief on the Mig 21. he mentions the basic version will be phased out this year

"We are still flying MiG-21 which is 44 year old but nobody driving cars of that vintage," Air Chief Dhanoa said, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh by his side. He was speaking at a seminar on modernisation and indigenisation of the Indian Air Force.

The Air Chief said the basic version of the Russian fighter jet would be phased out this year. "Hopefully, I will fly the last sortie in September, subject to visibility," he said.

The aircraft had been in service for decades because of the overhauling using Indian-made components. "Over 95 per cent of components required in overhauling is made in India. The Russians are not flying the MiG but we are because we have overhaul facilities," said Air Chief BS Dhanoa.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Aug 2019 17:37

I think it must be the Bis, I dont think the Bison squadrons will be phased out this year.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 21 Aug 2019 03:04

There are MiG-21Ms around as well. And yes he must be referring to the non Bison fleet.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Aug 2019 12:43

A Q.Why wasn't other options from SNECMA and RR also looked at as far as the engines alone were considered after thd Honeywell price hike? We've used a cocktail of eqpt. from east and went on Bisons and MKIs anc eqpt. upgrades and integration is well within HAL's ability.The Jags are useful birds for the tactical strike role. Every airframe is an asset.Equipped with stand- off PGMs they will be less vulnerable to AA systems.
It's why I've been saying for aeons that we shoild always build at least two prototypes with rival engines.Even for thd LCA Mk.-2 ( and AMCA) , the EJ with TVC should be an option .If we are still able to get a cheaper European engine, the possibility should be pursued.
Posted elsewhere that Taiwan's 66 F-16/70s will structurally be able to " fly and fight" upto 2070!

This is in no way advocating dumping extra MKI acquisitions. I can't understand the IAF's reluctance for more sqds. when they require more sqds. as of the last century.The MKIs are our best birds and at affordable cost too.If more med.- sized single pilot aircraft are preferred/required, the MIG-29 or 35 variant are the most cost- effective options avoiding introducing yet another type.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Aug 2019 17:57

ramana wrote:Just a few weeks ago when HAL offered to make 1 squadron of SU-30s the IAF balked as they relied on jag upgrade etc.
How things change quickly.!

There is Su-30 production capacity while Tejas capacity is being built.
So makes sense to ensure numbers don't go down.
Hope these newer Su-30s already come with upgraded avionics and strong points.
That would increase the IAF combat capability.

quoted from the same SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP article.

Top sources in the defence establishment said the Rolls-Royce Adour 811 engines of the 1980s vintage twin-engine aircraft have seen 15-30 per cent reduction in thrust. This means the Jaguar cannot carry its full load.

The engine performance will continue to degrade, GOKs at what rate before they become unusable.

Load carrying capacity of the platform reduces thereby directly impacting some loadout possibilities and also reduces the combat range thus possibly restricting its role.

It may be worthwhile looking for a "fix" to try and overcome thrust deficiencies by working directly with the OEM.

just saying onlee

also Phillip saar's idea of "build at least two prototypes with rival engines" is worth looking at.

plenty of older airframes available to experiment with and as always, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

could be done in some BRD with HAL help.

nam · Post by **nam** » 21 Aug 2019 18:11

IAF Chief is complaining about Mig21, rightly so.

However the Chief needs to answer, why does IAF prefer to fly those obsolete Mig21 until it gets the perfect version of LCA (MK1A)?

what's wrong in inducting more Mk1(IOC/FOC)? Even the IOC version is miles ahead of Mig21. Has GoI stopped IAF from inducting the LCA?

Instead we have 0 LCA delivered between March & October, because IAF wants only one sqd of IOC. Zero!

There will be a much bigger delivery gap between FOC & MK1A, because IAF wants only sqd of FOC.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Aug 2019 18:19

nam wrote:IAF Chief is complaining about Mig21, rightly so.

However the Chief needs to answer, why does IAF prefer to fly those obsolete Mig21 until it gets the perfect version of LCA (MK1A)?

what's wrong in inducting more Mk1(IOC/FOC)? Even the IOC version is miles ahead of Mig21. Has GoI stopped IAF from inducting the LCA?

Instead we have 0 LCA delivered between March & October, because IAF wants only one sqd of IOC. Zero!

There will be a much bigger delivery gap between FOC & MK1A, because IAF wants only sqd of FOC.

why the complaints just before he is to retire.

did he not spend hours flying them during his chief's tenure to prove how reliable they were.

If he is not happy now, how could he have been happy earlier or why did he keep quiet all this while.

nam · Post by **nam** » 21 Aug 2019 18:55

Sadly, i think it is a pitch to get more Rafales. The constant obsession about Rafale, is sadly getting very painful & tiresome.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 21 Aug 2019 20:30

chetak wrote:
nam wrote:IAF Chief is complaining about Mig21, rightly so.

However the Chief needs to answer, why does IAF prefer to fly those obsolete Mig21 until it gets the perfect version of LCA (MK1A)?

what's wrong in inducting more Mk1(IOC/FOC)? Even the IOC version is miles ahead of Mig21. Has GoI stopped IAF from inducting the LCA?

Instead we have 0 LCA delivered between March & October, because IAF wants only one sqd of IOC. Zero!

There will be a much bigger delivery gap between FOC & MK1A, because IAF wants only sqd of FOC.
why the complaints just before he is to retire.

did he not spend hours flying them during his chief's tenure to prove how reliable they were.

If he is not happy now, how could he have been happy earlier or why did he keep quiet all this while.

He said something else, it was presented in another way. What he said, he said with pride. https://inshorts.com/en/news/i-can-fly- ... 6312060582

Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa on Tuesday said, "Today, I can still fly the 44-year-old MiG-21 MF aircraft. I'm sure, none of you is driving a car that vintage." He said the aircraft has been in service for decades due to the overhauling of India-made components. "Hopefully, I will fly the last sortie in September, subject to visibility," he added.

Sir, still listening to rumour mongers.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Aug 2019 20:36

ACM Dhanoa ranks among the top IAF war time chiefs.
MAF Arjan Singh, ACM PC Lal, and him in that order.
In my not so humble opinion.
I would not believe any bokwas attributed to him.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 21 Aug 2019 21:53

India set to receive first Rafale jet on September 20.

Rafale is set to handover its first fighter jet built for the Indian Air Force. Air Force Chief BS Dhanoa and Defence Minister Rajnath Singh will be in France on September 20 to receive the first Rafale jet manufactured for the Indian Air Force.

"In presence of the IAF Chief, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh will accept the aircraft in presence of various defence and civilian bureaucrats there," IAF sources said in New Delhi.

The ceremony is expected to take place around the end of the third week of September and is likely to be attended by a large contingent from the French government as well.

The Indian Air Force would train 24 pilots in three different batches for flying the Indian Rafales till May next year which is when the planes will arrive in India.

The Indian Air Force will deploy one each squadron of the Rafale combat aircraft at its airbases in Ambala in Haryana and Hashimara in Bengal.

In September 2016, India signed a deal with the French government and Dassault Aviation to acquire 36 Rafale fighter jets for over Euro 7.8 billion to arrest the fall of combat squadrons and meet urgent requirements on the eastern and western fronts

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 22 Aug 2019 00:56

Much needed shot in the arm as far as the morale of the IAF is concerned. The whole fake Rafale "scam" that was the feature of the Congress campaign till this election had really given the deal a bad flavor. Quite a few people had only heard of the Rafale thanks to the slander associated with the Congress' campaign. I really am hoping that the Modi. Govt. 2.0 will put that behind and look at expanding on the 36 unit order as quickly as possible since Congress and its allies are neutered as of now.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Aug 2019 02:56

deejay wrote:
chetak wrote:
why the complaints just before he is to retire.

did he not spend hours flying them during his chief's tenure to prove how reliable they were.

If he is not happy now, how could he have been happy earlier or why did he keep quiet all this while.
He said something else, it was presented in another way. What he said, he said with pride. https://inshorts.com/en/news/i-can-fly- ... 6312060582

Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa on Tuesday said, "Today, I can still fly the 44-year-old MiG-21 MF aircraft. I'm sure, none of you is driving a car that vintage." He said the aircraft has been in service for decades due to the overhauling of India-made components. "Hopefully, I will fly the last sortie in September, subject to visibility," he added.
Sir, still listening to rumour mongers.

yes saar.

mea culpa but not for listening to rumors but because I did not read completely.

wig · Post by **wig** » 23 Aug 2019 16:12

Indian Air Force probe finds friendly fire caused February 27 Budgam chopper crash, 5 officers in dock

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2019-08-23

The helicopter was shot down around the same time when Indian and Pakistani fighter jets got into a rare aerial battle over Jammu and Kashmir. The aerial battle was a result of Pakistani jets launching a counter-attack in response to the Balakot air strikes.
Indian air defences were on their highest state of alert as a result of the Pakistani air intrusion. It was right then that the Mi-17 V-5 chopper of the 154 Helicopter Unit took off. It crashed within 10 minutes after taking off after being hit by an Indian air defence missile.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Aug 2019 23:05

Sad and unfortunate incident.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 23 Aug 2019 23:12

अर्ध-सन्यासी (Half Hermit)
@bababanaras
France Govt. gifted 32 Jaguar bomber and 2 Mirage 2000 fighter jets to India as friendship gesture. All these jets will reach India by end of the october after few requre changes as per IAF demand. I think this is best gift as per current situations.

What's up anyone heard anything?