Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

[Prithwiraj]

Back to back 6 Su 30 MKI take off from some airbase in India with a lone drummer cheering them by the side of the runway --- with lots of newly built or under construction hangers.. quite a video --- I wonder which airbase it is. Another quality video from the best Aviation videographer of India (IMHO) - Abhishek Singh

[Karan M]

All of them have the Eagle eye mod.

[ashthor]

Why are the IRST moving on the stationery aircraft(before taking off)?

[sudhan]

Why are the IRST moving on the stationery aircraft(before taking off)?

Tracking helmet movements, maybe?

[andy B]

All of them have the Eagle eye mod.

Hey Karan, are you referring to the r118 rwr project boss. Unfortunately I can only recall this link from the copy paste king



http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/201 ... f.html?m=1

[dmun]

Saw this on twitter :

@Wolfpack071

Code: Select all

In DACT exercises between IAF Su-30 MKIs and upgraded
Mirage 2000-5 Mk2; Su-30 still has an upper hand 
with 1.41:1 kill ratio in BVR combat & 1.94:1 kill ratio 
in WVR combat.

https://twitter.com/Wolfpack071/status/ ... 5819164672

[Karan M]

Yes! Eagle Eye = modification of R118 with 6 channels.

All of them have the Eagle eye mod.

Hey Karan, are you referring to the r118 rwr project boss. Unfortunately I can only recall this link from the copy paste king



http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/201 ... f.html?m=1

[Karan M]

Makes sense to be honest.

Saw this on twitter :

@Wolfpack071

Code: Select all

In DACT exercises between IAF Su-30 MKIs and upgraded
Mirage 2000-5 Mk2; Su-30 still has an upper hand 
with 1.41:1 kill ratio in BVR combat & 1.94:1 kill ratio 
in WVR combat.

https://twitter.com/Wolfpack071/status/ ... 5819164672

[Karan M]

Why are the IRST moving on the stationery aircraft(before taking off)?

Tracking helmet movements, maybe?

Well analyzed. That is indeed the most likely reason.

[kit]

This would be a hypothetical question ,

Would a HAL/DRDO combine be able to develop a new variant of the Su 30 MKI, building on whatever knowledge gained with support from the Russians? Granted they have their Su 35, but i was looking at HALs tech ( they were able to do something similar in helicopters )

[ArjunPandit]

This would be a hypothetical question ,

Would a HAL/DRDO combine be able to develop a new variant of the Su 30 MKI, building on whatever knowledge gained with support from the Russians? Granted they have their Su 35, but i was looking at HALs tech ( they were able to do something similar in helicopters )

kit ji, I am no expert, but let me bite the bullet..
more than the russian knowledge/support/assistance our experience with tejas would come handy..
but what would you like add over and above Su 35?
do you want more westernization/rafalization of Su 30 mki?

[sudeepj]

Back to back 6 Su 30 MKI take off from some airbase in India with a lone drummer cheering them by the side of the runway --- with lots of newly built or under construction hangers.. quite a video --- I wonder which airbase it is. Another quality video from the best Aviation videographer of India (IMHO) - Abhishek Singh

Quite a video! We should do an elephant walk type psyops from Agra or Jodhpur to scare the living daylights out of Pakis. Vegetation and the color of the soil suggests Jodhpur or some other base in Rajasthan.

Whats the drummer for? scaring away birds?

[ramana]

Makes sense to be honest.

Saw this on twitter :

@Wolfpack071

Code: Select all

In DACT exercises between IAF Su-30 MKIs and upgraded
Mirage 2000-5 Mk2; Su-30 still has an upper hand 
with 1.41:1 kill ratio in BVR combat & 1.94:1 kill ratio 
in WVR combat.

https://twitter.com/Wolfpack071/status/ ... 5819164672

Then why would the IAF agree to buy only 12 more Su-30 MKIs?
Here a SU-30MKI is better than upgraded M2K in both WVR and BVR!!!

They like the under-powered Jags?

[Prithwiraj]

Back to back 6 Su 30 MKI take off from some airbase in India with a lone drummer cheering them by the side of the runway --- with lots of newly built or under construction hangers.. quite a video --- I wonder which airbase it is. Another quality video from the best Aviation videographer of India (IMHO) - Abhishek Singh

Quite a video! We should do an elephant walk type psyops from Agra or Jodhpur to scare the living daylights out of Pakis. Vegetation and the color of the soil suggests Jodhpur or some other base in Rajasthan..

Whats the drummer for? scaring away birds?

I am hoping there is better way to meet that objective when we are talking about 70 million dollars jet....

Also couple of the Jets have a different colored Radar Cone than the rest... Any specific reason for that?

[srai]

Makes sense to be honest.

Then why would the IAF agree to buy only 12 more Su-30 MKIs?
Here a SU-30MKI is better than upgraded M2K in both WVR and BVR!!!
They like the under-powered Jags?

Parrikar had asked similar questions as to why not Su-30MKIs instead of MMRCA.

Main reason seems to be operational costs, both manpower and maintenance. The IAF doesn’t want more than the 13.5 Su-30MKI squadrons it had planned for.

[kit]

This would be a hypothetical question ,

Would a HAL/DRDO combine be able to develop a new variant of the Su 30 MKI, building on whatever knowledge gained with support from the Russians? Granted they have their Su 35, but i was looking at HALs tech ( they were able to do something similar in helicopters )

kit ji, I am no expert, but let me bite the bullet..
more than the russian knowledge/support/assistance our experience with tejas would come handy..
but what would you like add over and above Su 35?
do you want more westernization/rafalization of Su 30 mki?

India does not operate the Su 35s though the tech has been offered as a part of Super Su upgrade. My question is can India do its own version of the "super" sukhoi changing the IRST, onboard computing processors,AESA radar (uttam upgrade) , its own version of DRICMs , sensor fusion tech as developed for the MCA ( apparently gives a 360 deg awareness ) upgraded ECCMs , some of this can be bolt on like the sensor/reconnaissance pod. Radar absorbing paints / canopy upgrades to reduce RCS etc .. all this is very much doable and give more expertise much like Israel in upgrading the worldwide Su fleet ..

Why do this , India will hold the IP rights and this version of Sukhoi would probably be go right into the next century

Drawbacks would still be the basic design might not be quite suitable in a futuristic battlefield dominated by robotic stealth fighters

[Sumeet]

Is that Litening 4 pod or Elta SAR 20060 Pod on MKI in that video at 1:11 and 1:18-1:23 ?

Also what is the blue dot on MKI tail boom 2:31 ?

[ramana]

Why are they worried about costs like accountants?
Its the job of Raksha Mantri to take care of costs.
IAF should worry about squadron strengths with whats available.

I think 300:200:100

could be future ratio
and get rid of these menagerie of aircraft for specific purpose.
That would be a real cost saver.

[ramana]

kit lets be realistic.
Only USAF will have those stealth robotic flying vehicles.
Is that the challenger?
Current trajectory is to prevent any internal development and want imports
How does that reconcile with having to fight stealth robotic flying vehicles?

[nachiket]

Why are they worried about costs like accountants?
Its the job of Raksha Mantri to take care of costs.
IAF should worry about squadron strengths with whats available.

I am actually happy that IAF is worried about costs. MoD baboos and politicians who cannot tell apart a Su-30 from a Sopwith Camel cannot be replied upon to do that as the MMRCA fiasco clearly shows. IAF is now the burnt child dreading the fire.

[fanne]

My take on why we are restricting SU30MKI to its current numbers (that is not to say few maybe acquired for say to retire Jaguars)
1. We already have enough (272). What 272 cannot do perhaps 350 will also be not able to do
2.All eggs in one basket (or major eggs in one basket aircraft wise; and country wise, 90% of IAF Russian dependent. Russians and Chinese embrace is getting tighter....)
3. It is still a 4+ generation design (no LO) with avionics and other tech which was cutting edge as of 2005, but now we are in 2020 (think AESA, fusion, AA weapons (like meteor), towed decoys etc.)
4. High cost to maintain and fly. Upkeep not so great
5.Forward bases have small pen and would gets lots of love in the beginning, you do not want to loose your most costly/advance plane there, want to keep in depth, so something has to man the front - LCA/Mig 21....later maybe Mig 29 if we can get few more at low cost
6.Contrary to perception, they do not provide overwhelming superiority like say a new buy like Rafale or say F-35 would give over TSPAF f-16 OR CHICOMS J-XX. Not with current state, they may once they are upgraded (they will beat these planes, but it may not be one sided turkey shoot, we were that strong against TSPAF in say 2005, we want to get back to that state). Upgrade is not easy to come both technology and money wise (else we would be already upgrading).

Having said that, the numbers are low, and we are not getting enough planes -LCA or Rafale any time fast or cheap. So SU30MKI number should go up, can go up in spite of the operational cost. Maybe some we should modify on our own (at a lower cost - as 50 are being modified for Brahmos, not all have to be modified). Maybe quick 20 (additional) as growler equivalent, some 20 as replacement for Jags in maritime role (those SU30MKI will be 2-3 times more effective, longer range, brahmos equipped, maybe wet wing), another 20-40 new buy (Chinese only baught some 20-30 odd SU35s) of SU30MKI that have AESA radar from Russia, enhanced for air superiority (in the sense that F-16 or J-XX against is dead 9 out of 10 times, a Feb 27 like engagement would have resulted in some 5-8 TSP planes down). These are additional 80 birds, taking the number to 350 total. While in that time we ramp up LCA. To round off 36 Rafale is too less. Maybe another 36, this time offset should be on avionics that can go into LCA and SU30MKI upgrade (whatever new fancy things it has). Can there be a SU30MKI frame with Rafale interiors? - AESA, SPECTRA, METEOR?

[Vips]

Instead of buying a substantial number of additional numbers we should just buy 12-18 SU30 to replace the crashed frames, and go for 36 SU35 preferably with AESA radar.

[Cain Marko]

Instead of buying a substantial number of additional numbers we should just buy 12-18 SU30 to replace the crashed frames, and go for 36 SU35 preferably with AESA radar.

There is no such thing. But in the next few years, one can expect a very advanced upgrade path for the MKI. Post 2022-25. Let the izd30 become available.

6.Contrary to perception, they do not provide overwhelming superiority like say a new buy like Rafale or say F-35 would give over TSPAF f-16 OR CHICOMS J-XX. Not with current state, they may once they are upgraded (they will beat these planes, but it may not be one sided turkey shoot, we were that strong against TSPAF in say 2005, we want to get back to that state). Upgrade is not easy to come both technology and money wise (else we would be already upgrading).

Fanneji while I agree with much of what you said, i think you are mistaken in this assessment. The MKI provided as much superiority as needed vs tsp and plaaf wrt 4gen fighters at least.

The fact that the mki could easily shrug of multiple amraam c5 shots is a testament to this. Just because it was not seen in an offensive mode doesn't mean that it doesn't provide a totally one sided superiority over say, an f16 blk50. It's superiority had been established in multiple dact exercises. Rest assured the mki is capable of taking shots that are far longer in range than is advertised for the r77. For whatever reason, they chose not to.

In the meanwhile, A small and quick upgrade could include the mating of the a better version of the adder or even an r37 with the rambha

[Sumeet]

Instead of buying a substantial number of additional numbers we should just buy 12-18 SU30 to replace the crashed frames, and go for 36 SU35 preferably with AESA radar.

Where is the AESA radar ? If we were living in dream world I wish we can execute Jaguar MAX on MKI and add Meteor BVRAAM to it.

[SajeevJino]

Saw this on twitter :

@Wolfpack071

Code: Select all

In DACT exercises between IAF Su-30 MKIs and upgraded
Mirage 2000-5 Mk2; Su-30 still has an upper hand 
with 1.41:1 kill ratio in BVR combat & 1.94:1 kill ratio 
in WVR combat.

https://twitter.com/Wolfpack071/status/ ... 5819164672

chest beating sucks, bring the Singaporean F16 and train with Su 30 MKI in BVR fight, then give me some results,

[SajeevJino]

Makes sense to be honest.

Then why would the IAF agree to buy only 12 more Su-30 MKIs?
Here a SU-30MKI is better than upgraded M2K in both WVR and BVR!!!

They like the under-powered Jags?

Sir jee, are we going to fight as North vs South , as north takes the Mirage and South take the MKI

Don't we plan to counter the AIM 120 laden F16 and future threat of PL 21 laden Paki and chinese Jets

just we always so happy that our MKI beat our Mirage, our Jaguar beat our MiG 21

[Austin]

Saw this on twitter :

@Wolfpack071

Code: Select all

In DACT exercises between IAF Su-30 MKIs and upgraded
Mirage 2000-5 Mk2; Su-30 still has an upper hand 
with 1.41:1 kill ratio in BVR combat & 1.94:1 kill ratio 
in WVR combat.

https://twitter.com/Wolfpack071/status/ ... 5819164672

chest beating sucks, bring the Singaporean F16 and train with Su 30 MKI in BVR fight, then give me some results,

All BVR training exercise are limited because they decide on the detection range which is constant for both , You can really BVR train with a Foreign Country nor would you want to revel capabilitis of our own Systems and Radars. Most time Su-30MKI have used Training Mode Radar in BVR combat to avoid reveling actual capabilities.

Hence BFM is the only good way how two different aircraft can compare.

[Austin]

Makes sense to be honest.

Then why would the IAF agree to buy only 12 more Su-30 MKIs?
Here a SU-30MKI is better than upgraded M2K in both WVR and BVR!!!

They like the under-powered Jags?

It will make IAF Top Heavy and a bigger aircraft like MKI has bigger logistical foot print too in terms of Manpower ,Spares,MRO.

Uless IAF decides to reduce its squadron strength then it can go for larger MKI fleet but even your best aircraft cant be at all the places at the same time.

[SajeevJino]

Then why would the IAF agree to buy only 12 more Su-30 MKIs?
Here a SU-30MKI is better than upgraded M2K in both WVR and BVR!!!
They like the under-powered Jags?

Parrikar had asked similar questions as to why not Su-30MKIs instead of MMRCA.

Main reason seems to be operational costs, both manpower and maintenance. The IAF doesn’t want more than the 13.5 Su-30MKI squadrons it had planned for.

I too have little points,

Do any of our Bases in JK or near IB supports to hold the MKI in hanger, these hangers are all small and support light fighters only, otherwise we have to pour shit load of money to construct new QRF shelters and Hangers by destroying old

Do the R77 have enough range to outgun the Paki AMRAAM, and one more., are we still thinking that Pakistan not studied or worked on something with the help of chinese and Russians to evade the R77 missiles

how about the ground attack capability of Su 30 MKI, what kinda munitions it can carry, will it fly so close to the ground and visually identify targets before striking or dropping load of PGM's ( IAF might have around 5000 PGM only )

This is a reason why we need a diverse fighter jet to fullfill all the shortcomings, only Rafale, F16 or Gripen suits it

hence no need of more MKI

[Karan M]

Saw this on twitter :

@Wolfpack071

Code: Select all

In DACT exercises between IAF Su-30 MKIs and upgraded
Mirage 2000-5 Mk2; Su-30 still has an upper hand 
with 1.41:1 kill ratio in BVR combat & 1.94:1 kill ratio 
in WVR combat.

https://twitter.com/Wolfpack071/status/ ... 5819164672

chest beating sucks, bring the Singaporean F16 and train with Su 30 MKI in BVR fight, then give me some results,

Might want to educate yourself. The MKIs have been flying against F-16s, Mirage 2000s, Rafales, F-15s, Tornados and even EF in BVR for many years now.

https://hushkit.net/2019/07/20/flying-f ... interview/

“Another mission that stand out is a group combat mission that was pitching a Su-30 & one MiG-21 BISON against three F-16 . As luck would have it, the BISON did not get airborne and now the game was one Su-30 vs three F-16 in a BVR scenario. Again, we pushed the envelope, manoeuvred between 3000 ft to 32000 ft, pulling up to 8 g, turning, tumbling, firing and escaping missiles in a simulated engagement. The crew co-ord between us in the cockpit and the fighter controller on the ground was the best that I have ever seen! The results in a mock combat are always contentious but with ACMI, they are more reliable. End score one F-16 claimed without loss. When we got out of the cockpit we were thoroughly drenched in sweat and tired from the continuous high G manoeuvring but all smiles for the ecstasy that we had just experienced.”

[SajeevJino]

chest beating sucks, bring the Singaporean F16 and train with Su 30 MKI in BVR fight, then give me some results,

All BVR training exercise are limited because they decide on the detection range which is constant for both , You can really BVR train with a Foreign Country nor would you want to revel capabilitis of our own Systems and Radars. Most time Su-30MKI have used Training Mode Radar in BVR combat to avoid reveling actual capabilities.

Hence BFM is the only good way how two different aircraft can compare.

Might be a reason, don't we trust the Americans, don't we trust the Singaporeans, What's the problem of revealing the capabilities of Sukhoi and R77 with Americans, Joos and Singaporeans , I do think they already have enough knowledge about the MKI and R77

or else buy few ball park F16 with AMRAAM for training purposes and know our and enemy's weakness

[Karan M]

I too have little points,

Do any of our Bases in JK or near IB supports to hold the MKI in hanger, these hangers are all small and support light fighters only, otherwise we have to pour shit load of money to construct new QRF shelters and Hangers by destroying old

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... s/1513371/

Do the R77 have enough range to outgun the Paki AMRAAM, and one more., are we still thinking that Pakistan not studied or worked on something with the help of chinese and Russians to evade the R77 missiles

The Indian R-77s are not the same as the one supplied to the Chinese, as that was part of the deal and reported in literature.
India has also chosen to re-invest in the R-27 long burns which match most other MRAAMs.
Rest of the range benefit depends on tactics.

how about the ground attack capability of Su 30 MKI, what kinda munitions it can carry, will it fly so close to the ground and visually identify targets before striking or dropping load of PGM's ( IAF might have around 5000 PGM only )

This is a reason why we need a diverse fighter jet to fullfill all the shortcomings, only Rafale, F16 or Gripen suits it

hence no need of more MKI

Please don't make silly posts and take down the quality of the forum. The IAF Su-30 MKI's field the Litening G4, and can also deploy Kh-29 L/T, KAB-500/1500, Griffin, Kh-59ME, and soon the Brahmos, SPICE as well.

[Karan M]

chest beating sucks, bring the Singaporean F16 and train with Su 30 MKI in BVR fight, then give me some results,

All BVR training exercise are limited because they decide on the detection range which is constant for both , You can really BVR train with a Foreign Country nor would you want to revel capabilitis of our own Systems and Radars. Most time Su-30MKI have used Training Mode Radar in BVR combat to avoid reveling actual capabilities.

Hence BFM is the only good way how two different aircraft can compare.

This is not an accurate claim. While wartime modes are of course specific to every nation, the main aim is to train tactics & methods. The specific missile/radar performance can be sanitized to a degree, but tactics & methods are often shared with the relevant classifications applied. You don't waste your millions of dollars spent in an exercise by handicapping your folks.

[Karan M]

Why are they worried about costs like accountants?
Its the job of Raksha Mantri to take care of costs.
IAF should worry about squadron strengths with whats available.

I think 300:200:100

could be future ratio
and get rid of these menagerie of aircraft for specific purpose.
That would be a real cost saver.

Given the IAF's Opex problems (I had posted the numbers before), they really have no other option.
The MKI is already a full 50% of our fleet, overdependence on it is also not advisable.

[Austin]

More details on R-27 AAM upgrades

https://iz.ru/882783/aleksei-kozachenko ... lia-duelei

The missile will receive an updated control and guidance system. Modern electronics greatly facilitates aiming, which allows the pilot to pay more attention to piloting the aircraft. Guidance is carried out automatically by radio emission. A semi-automatic mode is also provided - in this case, the pilot will mark the target.

In addition, a new fuel charge has been developed for the rocket, which will give the ammunition an increased energy potential. The upgraded R-27 will be able to bring down cruise missiles and fifth-generation aircraft.

The R-27P and R-27R series missiles will also undergo modernization - they are designed to destroy air targets at any time of the day or night in difficult weather conditions. They can also be used during air combat, when the enemy’s plane maneuvers and puts active interference to the radars, thereby covering their actions. R-27R - medium-range missile with an inertial type control system. The guidance system includes a semi-active radar unit, activated at the finish of the flight.

The homing head R-27P1 includes a combination of active radar and an inertial correction system. These nodes are activated alternately depending on the phase of the flight. The missile receives target designation from radars of the carrier aircraft or ground-based radars. The control system works on the principle of "let-forget" with the provision of informational stealth attacks.

The length of the missiles exceeds 4700 mm, the starting weight is up to 350 kg, they are equipped with a solid fuel engine and a high-explosive warhead with 39 kg of explosive. The maximum launch range is 110 km.

[SajeevJino]

chest beating sucks, bring the Singaporean F16 and train with Su 30 MKI in BVR fight, then give me some results,

Might want to educate yourself. The MKIs have been flying against F-16s, Mirage 2000s, Rafales, F-15s, Tornados and even EF in BVR for many years now.

https://hushkit.net/2019/07/20/flying-f ... interview/

“Another mission that stand out is a group combat mission that was pitching a Su-30 & one MiG-21 BISON against three F-16 . As luck would have it, the BISON did not get airborne and now the game was one Su-30 vs three F-16 in a BVR scenario. Again, we pushed the envelope, manoeuvred between 3000 ft to 32000 ft, pulling up to 8 g, turning, tumbling, firing and escaping missiles in a simulated engagement. The crew co-ord between us in the cockpit and the fighter controller on the ground was the best that I have ever seen! The results in a mock combat are always contentious but with ACMI, they are more reliable. End score one F-16 claimed without loss. When we got out of the cockpit we were thoroughly drenched in sweat and tired from the continuous high G manoeuvring but all smiles for the ecstasy that we had just experienced.”

Still not satisfied, the adversary might not allowed to use the Radar maybe , ( I'm not joking )

[vishvak]

..
It will make IAF Top Heavy and a bigger aircraft like MKI has bigger logistical foot print too in terms of Manpower ,Spares,MRO.

Uless IAF decides to reduce its squadron strength then it can go for larger MKI fleet but even your best aircraft cant be at all the places at the same time.

To make the best of the situation available, the govt can find out if it can spend money (instead of mid life upgrade) to buy brand new(say 150) Su-57 stealth 5th gen instead and (temporarily) retire extra Su-30 (=150) at a Russian base for spares etc.

Just work out how much more money is needed for the same. Check Su-57 thread for advantages offered by that platform; and if it makes sense then invest in Gen-6 fighter jet that Russians are designing.

[Karan M]

Is that Litening 4 pod or Elta SAR 20060 Pod on MKI in that video at 1:11 and 1:18-1:23 ?

Also what is the blue dot on MKI tail boom 2:31 ?

Litening, and R118 Eagle Eye RWR variant's radome.

[Karan M]

Still not satisfied, the adversary might not allowed to use the Radar maybe , ( I'm not joking )

I have no further desire to deal with your flippant silliness. You are being given a warning for your low quality posts.

[SajeevJino]

Please don't make silly posts and take down the quality of the forum. The IAF Su-30 MKI's field the Litening G4, and can also deploy Kh-29 L/T, KAB-500/1500, Griffin, Kh-59ME, and soon the Brahmos, SPICE as well.

Please wake me up , when this happens , lets see if we have options to strike Bahawalpur or any other targets deep behind enemy line, which Aircraft goes