That is a "good" stupid question! Let me know when you find out the answer. I'm not holding my breath for it though.khatvaanga wrote: stupid question - if Aakash SAM can do the work do we need the Iron Dome or the S400? rather, why are we going for them when Aakash has the same capability?
The whole issue is of acquisition range. Nag relies on COMPASS for long range pickup and then can fire Nag with the target acquired so it can lock on before launch. The range is ~4km. Question is what method is used by the Brimstone to Lock on After launch? From air, its easy. You can use your onboard Litening etc to do the IFF and launch a bunch of Brimstones at the hostiles. How will that work where the target is not clearly differentiated on ground? Use mast mounted radar or optics? Then how intelligent is the Brimstone really to work its detection algos?Prem Kumar wrote:Not saying 12 is a small number. I was curious how they managed 24 (if that was indeed achieved). I realize its only a concept, while Namica is a ready-to-be-inducted system.
Funny part is that the Poles claim this is a 1st tank destroyer of its kind.
I hope there comes a Namica 2.0 with Helina & SANT, launched in LOAL mode and guided by a WSO sitting inside the vehicle. Pack-hunting using smart algorithms and busting tanks at a distance of 15 - 20 Km away! We are not that far away from this future.
Akash is a 30km ranged missile meant for targets which leak past the AF's Combat Air Patrols or (now) longer ranged SAMs. The longer ranged SAMs are part of a layered defense and will include the MRSAM (70km+) and the S-400. The S-400 is a family of missiles, ranging from 120/250km to 400km. The 250km-400km missiles can also handle different classes of ballistic missile threats (SRBM to IRBM). The Akash is designed primarily for aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles & has also been tested (successfully) against munitions.khatvaanga wrote:stupid question - if Aakash SAM can do the work do we need the Iron Dome or the S400? rather, why are we going for them when Aakash has the same capability?John wrote: That's something a command guided missile should have no trouble accomplishing, however there capability will be limited when it comes to intercepting maneuvering low flying missile. The latency will greatly reduce engagement range and need to maintain los could reduce hit probability in urban environments.
Anujan wrote:Seems to be a artillery shell with ramjet for range enhancement. Quite interesting. You don't need a first stage booster since it's an arty shell and will have enough velocity to ignite the ramjet engine. Arty shells with base bleed and rocket assists already exist. This seems to be an interesting variant of the idea.Prasad wrote:It is a ramjet powered missile. Nothing fancy. You could turn the Akash into one and call it Pinaka 3 in a few years' time.
Because you will accuse the armed forces of being corrupt and what not. There is a limit to which people can take such stuff.Vivek K wrote:That is a "good" stupid question! Let me know when you find out the answer. I'm not holding my breath for it though.khatvaanga wrote: stupid question - if Aakash SAM can do the work do we need the Iron Dome or the S400? rather, why are we going for them when Aakash has the same capability?
p.s. - giving out the answer will in the least get me banned.
Iron dome: Primary req for iron dome is being cost effective, being able to deal with saturation attacks/easy to deploy and quick reaction time. Iron dome costs around 100k usd (or less) which is far cheaper than any SAM (last I heard akash costs around 4 crores?). Each iron dome launcher carries 20 rounds allowing it to better deal with saturation attacks in a singe area.Karan M wrote:Akash is a 30km ranged missile meant for targets which leak past the AF's Combat Air Patrols or (now) longer ranged SAMs. The longer ranged SAMs are part of a layered defense and will include the MRSAM (70km+) and the S-400. The S-400 is a family of missiles, ranging from 120/250km to 400km. The 250km-400km missiles can also handle different classes of ballistic missile threats (SRBM to IRBM). The Akash is designed primarily for aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles & has also been tested (successfully) against munitions.khatvaanga wrote:
stupid question - if Aakash SAM can do the work do we need the Iron Dome or the S400? rather, why are we going for them when Aakash has the same capability?
So, the Akash can complement but not replace the other systems.
Iron Dome is entirely a different beast. It was a system designed in specific for the short range rocket/SRBM threat of the kind faced by Israel from Hezbollah and Hamas. As such it may be of limited use for our field Army or AF installations located deeper within India, and may be of use for the Army formations which envisage facing a massed deluge of SRBMs/rockets.
Got it. Thanks Karanji.Karan M wrote: Akash is a 30km ranged missile meant for targets which leak past the AF's Combat Air Patrols or (now) longer ranged SAMs. The longer ranged SAMs are part of a layered defense and will include the MRSAM (70km+) and the S-400. The S-400 is a family of missiles, ranging from 120/250km to 400km. The 250km-400km missiles can also handle different classes of ballistic missile threats (SRBM to IRBM). The Akash is designed primarily for aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles & has also been tested (successfully) against munitions.
So, the Akash can complement but not replace the other systems.
Iron Dome is entirely a different beast. It was a system designed in specific for the short range rocket/SRBM threat of the kind faced by Israel from Hezbollah and Hamas. As such it may be of limited use for our field Army or AF installations located deeper within India, and may be of use for the Army formations which envisage facing a massed deluge of SRBMs/rockets.
Add to that BDL Amogha-1 (Milan derivative) and Amogha-2.Prem Kumar wrote:We are going full steam on tank busters:
1) NAG
2) Helina
3) SANT
4) MANPATGM
5) CLGM
Not to mention assorted newer generation smart munitions like Adrushy-II
ID is designed for double digit ranged rockets with modifications done to increase agility and seeker performance so that it can handle UAV's and maneuvering subsonic cruise missiles. SRBM defense is provided by David's Sling at the low end, and PATRIOT and Arrow batteries at the higher end. I don't think the ID has demonstrated any residual SRBM capability of any significance.Karan M wrote:
Iron Dome is entirely a different beast. It was a system designed in specific for the short range rocket/SRBM threat of the kind faced by Israel from Hezbollah and Hamas. As such it may be of limited use for our field Army or AF installations located deeper within India, and may be of use for the Army formations which envisage facing a massed deluge of SRBMs/rockets.
Networked with UAVs, perhaps? UAV is the sensor and Namica is the shooterKaran M wrote: The whole issue is of acquisition range. Nag relies on COMPASS for long range pickup and then can fire Nag with the target acquired so it can lock on before launch. The range is ~4km. Question is what method is used by the Brimstone to Lock on After launch? From air, its easy. You can use your onboard Litening etc to do the IFF and launch a bunch of Brimstones at the hostiles. How will that work where the target is not clearly differentiated on ground? Use mast mounted radar or optics? Then how intelligent is the Brimstone really to work its detection algos?
Image courtesy Tonbo imaging. They are making the EOTS system.putnanja wrote:Is there any info on the weight of the missile & launcher & tripod? Can it be shoulder-fired too?
Its BDL's MPATGM. They have three versions AMOGH 1/2/3. Little information available on them.Philip wrote:Is this a new missile or Nag MANPADS? Looks like Nag.
.
The system is called Promahon.Thakur_B wrote:Image courtesy Tonbo imaging. They are making the EOTS system.putnanja wrote:Is there any info on the weight of the missile & launcher & tripod? Can it be shoulder-fired too?
Description
Promahon is a EO / IR command launcher unit for shoulder / land fired ATGM / MPATGM. Integrated with cooled thermal imager, day imager and laser range finding enables lock on to a stationary / moving target with the missile before launch.
Equipped to interact wireless with the EO / IR seeker allows impeccable control of the missile till it hits the target. Its capable of sending the target picture and coordinates to the seeker to engage before launch and in its terminal phase it can receive the video from the seeker to show target in realtime.
It also interacts with the launcher electronics enabling complete fire control solution in a compact integrated package.
The CLU can also be used as a portable thermal sight independent of the MPATGM missile launcher.
Capabilities
•Multi Sensor Suite •LWIR / MWIR Cooled Thermal Imager
•Day Imager
•Day Spotter
•Laser Range Finder
•Extender Optics for Extended Ranges
•Integrated GPS and Digital Compass
•Missile Control Electronics
•Seeker Control Electronics
•Battery Operated
•Remotely Operated
Applications
•Command Launch Unit (CLU) •Land / Air launched ATGM
•Man Portable ATGM (MPATGM)
•Surveillance and Reconnaissance
Description
Trap1 is a dual / tri band EO / IR multi-sensor stabilised seeker for fire and forget next Gen weapon systems including ATGM / MPATGM. Integrated with a cooled / uncooled thermal imager, a day imager on a two-axis gimbal assembly housed in an optical dome, it allows the missile / drone to maintain lock on a stationary / moving target using advanced video tracking and processing techniques.
AI Enables the seeker with a brain of its own, trained on a very large dataset of IR signatures of multitude of targets.
Equipped to track and home onto predefined targets it allows the missile to be launched in a fire and forget mode, it can also interact wirelessly with the CLU to allow manual control, if required, of the missile till it hits the target.
Its capable of accepting the target picture from a command launch unit, gunner’s sight or just a preloaded target image to engage before its launch.
Designed with SWaP constraints makes it applicable for ATGMs, Glide Bombs and also Kamikaze Drones.
Capabilities
•True Fire and Forget
•Stabilised Gimbal
•Dual Band / Tri Band Seeker
•Realtime Video Enhancements
•Real time Sensor Fusion
•GPS Denied Navigation
•AI Enabled Auto Target Recognition and Tracking
•On Screen Graphics Engine
•Auto Alignment with Launching electro optics
Applications
•Anti Tank Guided Missiles(ATGM / MPATGM)
•Glide Bomb
•Kamikaze Drones
The claim as new concept by Poles is not becoz of BMP type carrier but due to specific characteristics of Brimstone missile.Prem Kumar wrote:Check out this concept tank-destroyer - collaboration between Poland & MBDA. Looks like what Namica could be, once we equip it with Helina & SANT.
I am curious how they packed 24 Brimstones in a BMP-2 carrier (same as Namica). Nag dimensions are similar to Brimstone and Namica carries only 12.
If we make Namica 2.0 carry 24 Helinas or SANTs, it will be a lethal tank-destroyer!
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... lflowTWPOP
Helina, that we know, that as described by the development team of drdo, needs significant manual intervention in LOAL mode before missile could take over. You can check the video.Prem Kumar wrote:Kanson: Helina is also LOAL. Needs to be launched in the general direction. The mast + radar it to know what the general direction needs to be.
Perhaps, I think, such statement arrises becoz we dont possibly know the workings of SPICE 2000. We are tempted to belittle the achievement. Its OK. I could see a lot of negative vibes in the last few pages.John wrote:That's something a command guided missile should have no trouble accomplishing, however there capability will be limited when it comes to intercepting maneuvering low flying missile. The latency will greatly reduce engagement range and need to maintain los could reduce hit probability in urban environments.ashishvikas wrote:Even the baseline Akash SAM has demonstrated counter-PGM capability having successfully intercepted SPICE 2000 glide bombs during acceptance trials as revealed by @DRDO_India.
DRDO says that it can intercept targets at altitudes as low as 30 metres.
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1171285263059808257
#BEL says its has inked a pact with MoD today for procurement of 7 Squadrons of Akash Missile System for
@IAF_MCC
. This is a turnkey contract with specialist infrastructure and the total value is Rs 5,357 crore.
The 1S is supposed to have an RF seeker right? So it becomes command guidance + terminal active homing. What additional capability does the NG provide? Range?Karan M wrote:The Akash 1S is being called the Akash 2?
The original Akash 2 being renamed the Akash NG.
Kanson where are you getting this 6 km altitude from? That's far too short even OSA could knock out targets at 12km high. IMO altitude should be over 15 km (similar to Spyder missile using derby rounds).Infact Army wanted a less capable missile than Akash as it wanted the missile system to be light weight. Akash can reach 18 kms in altitude compared to just 6 kms for QRSAM, just 1/3rd. Obviously missile becomes light and more mobile.
wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_HaropKaran M wrote:Kanson,
"Brimstone doesnt need mast mounted radar or thermal sight, you just have to point them in the target direction, rest it will do"
Any weapon which is launched anyplace needs to be sure it is attacking opponents or real targets. Otherwise, civilians will be taken out or you go broke. So whether on the tank carrier or not, you need some kind of detection, deconfliction sensor.
Haroop is a fairly simple system. Any nation that has the ability to build anti radiation missile seeker and remotely piloted system and can design and build such a system.Kanson wrote:wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_HaropKaran M wrote:Kanson,
"Brimstone doesnt need mast mounted radar or thermal sight, you just have to point them in the target direction, rest it will do"
Any weapon which is launched anyplace needs to be sure it is attacking opponents or real targets. Otherwise, civilians will be taken out or you go broke. So whether on the tank carrier or not, you need some kind of detection, deconfliction sensor.
[ .... In February 2019, the Indian Air Force decided to add another 54 Harop drones to its fleet of around 110 of these drones, which they had renamed P-4. ....]
What do you think about the autonomous guidance feature of this drone? On the guidance part, not about loitering aspect, can a missile replicate this feature?
Karan M wrote:The Akash 1S is being called the Akash 2?
The original Akash 2 being renamed the Akash NG.
