VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 09 Oct 2019 16:04

https://twitter.com/AskAnshul/status/11 ... 29024?s=20

Shastra Puja is one of the oldest traditions of our Indian Armed Forces.

This image of Puja of aircraft is from 1980s during Congress rule in India.

But today Shastra Puja has become Communal in India for the same Congress.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 09 Oct 2019 16:11

how do the commies/congis/naxals explain this

and the rafale sashtra puja

M_Joshi · Post by **M_Joshi** » 09 Oct 2019 17:07

RB 002

M_Joshi · Post by **M_Joshi** » 09 Oct 2019 17:27

Rakesh wrote: Group Captain Harkirat Singh, Shaurya Chakra, Tiger Golden Arrows.

Can anyone ID the type of watch he's wearing?

nam · Post by **nam** » 09 Oct 2019 18:05

Is it just me or the color on desi Rafale is different from the usual Tipnis Grey?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Oct 2019 20:10

Mirage had indeed influenced a lot of design for Tejas (LCA), and its variants. I am seeing a similar influence of inlet design for Indian MWF-4 (Mirage 4000ish) from Rafale. Something unique about Rafale, and it is near stealth with frontal RCS. AMCA designs will look at it with deep respect.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 09 Oct 2019 23:58

SaiK wrote:and it is near stealth with frontal RCS

If you zoom out you'll see something different though. There is some effort put to keep RCS low but in other areas they haven't bothered which is to be expected given diminishing returns for most missions given external carriage of weapons. Moreover, in this "near frontal stealth" mode it cannot even self-designate targets so there are limitations and trades involved..

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 10 Oct 2019 00:23

SaiK wrote:Mirage had indeed influenced a lot of design for Tejas (LCA), and its variants. I am seeing a similar influence of inlet design for Indian MWF-4 (Mirage 4000ish) from Rafale. Something unique about Rafale, and it is near stealth with frontal RCS. AMCA designs will look at it with deep respect.

Good observation. But without internal weapons bay and with protrusions such as refuelling probe, I wouldn't classify it as stealthy. But yes efforts have been made to minimize the rcs.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Oct 2019 00:25

brar_w wrote:
SaiK wrote:and it is near stealth with frontal RCS
If you zoom out you'll see something different though. There is some effort put to keep RCS low but in other areas they haven't bothered which is to be expected given diminishing returns for most missions given external carriage of weapons. Moreover, in this "near frontal stealth" mode it cannot even self-designate targets so there are limitations and trades involved.

That is exactly what I want to say when people say Rafale is stealthy. Yes they have serrated some joins, but the first order of stealth comes from other aspects like shaping. I cannot see anything in Rafale's shaping which is stealth! Yes, the engine face is hidden, but that is in true in the case of most modern aircrafts except the F-15, Su27 and Mig29 deriavatives.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 10 Oct 2019 00:44

A Boeing engineer once described this process as RCS optimization exercise as really begun to be introduced in most advanced 4-4.5 gen. aircraft programs back in the late 80's. This obviously doesn't mean that stealth or a specific signature was equal or even proportional weightage in design trades or a formal KPP for that matter. This just means that they followed some best practices where following them did not interfere with other mission goals and decisions. If they were truly weighing RCS heavily they would have mandated a retractable probe, some form of internally housed strike designation system and would have probably also done away with the canards. But much like Boeing's PR shop, Dassault's marketing (which is much better organized) has played this stealth card a number of times and it is especially amplified when they are competing with a stealth aircraft (though it has yet to work

)

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 10 Oct 2019 01:34

A little known story about Grp Capt Harkirat Singh, who will command first Rafale squadron.

With France handing over first of the Rafale fighter jets to India at Merignac Tuesday, photographs of a beaming Defence Minister Rajnath Singh and senior Indian Air Force officers with the aircraft in the background were splashed all over social media.

Standing among the officers was Group Captain Harkirat Singh, the designated Commanding Officer of the newly-resurrected 17th Squadron ‘Golden Arrows’, which will get the first set of four Rafale fighters by the end of May 2020.

Group Captain Singh, earlier a MiG 21 pilot, is known for his “exceptional courage” and was awarded the Shaurya Chakra in 2009 for his brave act that helped save the aircraft as well as his own life.

What happened on the night of 23 September 2008?
Group Captain Singh, then a Squadron Leader, was in a two-aircraft practice interception sortie on the MiG 21 Bison aircraft at night on 23 September 2008.

During the interception phase at an altitude of 4 km, when the pilot engaged reheat to accelerate to the briefed speeds, he noticed a bright flash in the peripheral vision and heard three loud banging noises from the engine, according to his citation.

“He promptly selected reheat off. However, the Rotation Per Minute and Jet Pipe Temperature continued to wind down indicating an engine flame out. This resulted in complete loss of thrust with the speed washing off and the aircraft descending,” reads the Citation of his gallantry award.

Not only this, he also experienced loss of flight and altitude data on the head-up display and multi-functional display.

Adding to the trouble was that the cockpit lights went off with only the battery-operated emergency floodlights being available.

When flying during dark night over the desert, with very few lights on the ground and only stars in the sky, disorientation can occur very quickly.

It is further complicated if a dire emergency, such as a flame-out, occurs.

“In-addition, with only limited head down instruments available against dim cockpit lights, this situation could have also led to disorientation. This coupled with a flamed out engine, presented the pilot with an emergency of the most critical nature on the MiG-21 class of aircraft,” the citation read.

Singh is said to have calmly assessed the situation and reacted in a controlled manner.

He immediately reduced the angle of attack, thereby preventing the aircraft from entering the stalling regime.

Group Captain Singh took recovery actions of relighting the engine without delay. While doing so, he continued with the difficult task of piloting the aircraft in dark night conditions.

“After a successful relight and with the cockpit lighting restored, he utilised his on board navigation systems along with the assistance from Ground Control Intercept controller to position on final approach followed by a Surveillance Radar Approach to land,” the citation read.

He was now faced with the next demanding task of carrying out an overweight landing in dark night conditions, which calls for high degree of skill levels.

“His exemplary piloting skills with composed mental state under extreme adverse conditions were instrumental in successfully recovering the aircraft. This act of saving the aircraft was undertaken by him in total disregard to his own safety,” the citation read.

It added: “Any wrong input or a delayed action by the pilot would have resulted in a catastrophic accident. After landing, he cleared off the runway and switched off, thereby enabling the recovery of other aircraft.”

The citation said his prompt and correct actions prevented a Category-I accident and saved a valuable aircraft.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Oct 2019 02:15

M_Joshi wrote:RB 002

Absolutely gorgeous jet..I just wish the IAF didn't apply this all over Tipnis grey scheme to every jet.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Oct 2019 02:19

Kartik wrote: Absolutely gorgeous jet..I just wish the IAF didn't apply this all over Tipnis grey scheme to every jet.

The Mirage 2000's continue to be immune to Tipnis Grey and remain Blue! Even after the upgrade. All the other jets have succumbed.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Oct 2019 05:47

Kakarat wrote:I have also been looking at it and have been looking for patch design too

Form the pics we have so far first 8 are dual seater and others after them will be single

That is very good to know. Thank You.

So from RB001 to RB008 are 8 twin seater Rafales and from RB 009 to RB 036 are single seat Rafales.

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 10 Oct 2019 05:49

I quite like the gray.

I often wish IAF still painted sqn badges - those were so damn cool and would look great on Tejas, Rafale and Su-30MKI

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Oct 2019 06:19

https://twitter.com/Vakil_Raghu/status/ ... 9019136000 ---> Rafale deal as per @sneheshphilip

Basic Aircraft Single Seater = 91 Million Euros each (28 x 91 Million Euros) = 2.548 Billion Euros
Two-seater Trainer Aircraft = 94 Million Euros each (8 x 94 Million Euros) = 752 Million Euros)
Total 36 Basic Aircraft (2.548 Bn Eu + 752 Mn Eu) = 3.42 Billion Euros.

https://twitter.com/Vakil_Raghu/status/ ... 1401529344 --->

Weapons (Scalp Missile + Meteor AAM etc) - 710 Million Euros
Indian Specific Enchantments -1.7 Billion Euros
Associate supplies, including simulators, for the 36 fighter jets - 1.8 Billion Euros
Performance-based logistics - 353 Million Euros

Rafale Deal- 7.878 Billion Euros

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Oct 2019 06:26

Based on the above math, 114 Rafales will cost roughly the following;

100 single seat Rafales = (100 x 91 Million Euros) = 9.1 Billion Euros
14 twin seat Rafales = (14 x 94 Million Euros) = 1.316 Billion Euros

Just bare bone Rafales (x 114) will cost around 10.416 Billion Euros or US $11.44 billion as per today's exchange rates.

Weapons, spares, PBL will all cost extra. Nothing short of US $15 billion at minimum.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 10 Oct 2019 07:26

Rakesh wrote:Based on the above math, 114 Rafales will cost roughly the following;

100 single seat Rafales = (100 x 91 Million Euros) = 9.1 Billion Euros
14 twin seat Rafales = (14 x 94 Million Euros) = 1.316 Billion Euros

Just bare bone Rafales (x 114) will cost around 10.416 Billion Euros or US $11.44 billion as per today's exchange rates.

Weapons, spares, PBL will all cost extra. Nothing short of US $15 billion at minimum.

that is a good estimate. if these planes are to be made in India by HAL the cost will be extra. thats why NAMO decided to buy 36 and not 126.

what ever we select for the MMRCA 2.0 will also cost in the same range and if we are starting from AON it will take 10yrs at least for delivery(Shastra puja). It is best to fund and push for MWF.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 10 Oct 2019 07:39

The 13 India Specific Enhancements in Rafale.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 10 Oct 2019 07:47

Rakesh wrote:Based on the above math, 114 Rafales will cost roughly the following;

100 single seat Rafales = (100 x 91 Million Euros) = 9.1 Billion Euros
14 twin seat Rafales = (14 x 94 Million Euros) = 1.316 Billion Euros

Just bare bone Rafales (x 114) will cost around 10.416 Billion Euros or US $11.44 billion as per today's exchange rates.

Weapons, spares, PBL will all cost extra. Nothing short of US $15 billion at minimum.

The 11.44 billion is what the focus should be on. 12 planes a year for 10 years will roughly cost us about 1.2 billion a year which is doable.

The spares and PBL will come from the OPEX budget and not CAPEX. It can be negotiated during the initial contract signing, but how it is paid and from what budget will be later.

IMO that is probably why IAF isn't ordering more MKI, to them they will continue to absorb 12 new Raffies instead of 12 MKIs moving forward if Dassault wins.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Oct 2019 07:50

Cybaru wrote:The 11.44 billion is what the focus should be on. 12 planes a year for 10 years will roughly cost us about 1.2 billion a year which is doable.

The spares and PBL will come from the OPEX budget and not CAPEX. It can be negotiated during the initial contract signing, but how it is paid and from what budget will be later.

I fully agree. I am sorry for including the other figures. I did not think of that.

The $1.2 billion is just for the IAF. If the IN order is also included, it will go upwards of $2 billion. With 50% offsets, a good chunk of that money will be invested back in India. And the cost will be spread out over 10 years.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 10 Oct 2019 07:58

The lack of MKI orders is a significant data point as far as IAF's budget goes. I really do think that is probably why IAF isn't ordering more MKI, to them they will continue to absorb 12 new Raffies instead of 12 MKIs moving forward if Dassault wins. The absorption rate will continue to remain as today other than the increase in the production of Tejas and faster deliveries there.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 10 Oct 2019 08:06

Rakesh wrote:Based on the above math, 114 Rafales will cost roughly the following;

100 single seat Rafales = (100 x 91 Million Euros) = 9.1 Billion Euros
14 twin seat Rafales = (14 x 94 Million Euros) = 1.316 Billion Euros

Just bare bone Rafales (x 114) will cost around 10.416 Billion Euros or US $11.44 billion as per today's exchange rates.

Weapons, spares, PBL will all cost extra. Nothing short of US $15 billion at minimum.

With AMCA as told to us will be ready in 6 years time, most likely not inducted into squadrons in 6 years. But still, no point in inducting Rafale over the next 10 years. Best thing will be to order 3 4 additional squadrons now and be done with it. Invest rest in AMCA and other stuff.

BTW, am I the only one who thinks Navy is a bit being overambitious in asking for 57 jets of Rafale standards? With no CATOBAR carrier in sight, there's no point in having such a high performance jet that's can't operate to its full potential in a conventional STOBAR carrier. That money is better spent on additional DDGs and subs.

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 10 Oct 2019 11:00

Karthik S wrote:BTW, am I the only one who thinks Navy is a bit being overambitious in asking for 57 jets of Rafale standards? With no CATOBAR carrier in sight, there's no point in having such a high performance jet that's can't operate to its full potential in a conventional STOBAR carrier. That money is better spent on additional DDGs and subs.

The Navy is being overambitious alright. I think they basically want to shutdown the entire airspace over the Bay of Bengal, Arabian sea & the Indian Ocean in the event of a conflict... without relying on the IAF and regardless of whether they have aircraft carriers to do it with. So they want the Rafale because:
1) The Mig-29Ks are good enough only for fleet air defence. They can cough & wheez around the aircraft carriers but they cannot do long-distance, long-endurance patrols like the Su-30s and be a potent BARCAP for the P-8Is.
2) The IAF has it's hands full due to depleting numbers and the threat of a two front war. So in a conflict all the IAF assets like fighters & AWACS/AAR will be dedicated for use in the North & East and so the airspace over the seas will be INs problem.
3) The P-8Is may not be enough to cover the area on 3 sides of South India full-time, so the Rafale's might have to use it's own sensors/reconnaissance pods/data fusion capabilities to function as mini AWACs/AEWs along with the Navy's existing UAV squadrons to complement the P-8I force.

One poster on BRF (don't remember who) has often remarked that India doesn't need aircraft carriers since the whole Southern Indian landmass jutting into the Indian Ocean is one huge aircraft carrier. Well...I think the Indian Navy might just have heard him and accepted his logic. So the 57 Rafales are for this huge aircraft carrier called INS South India!

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 10 Oct 2019 11:08

sajaym wrote: One poster on BRF (don't remember who) has often remarked that India doesn't need aircraft carriers since the whole Southern Indian landmass jutting into the Indian Ocean is one huge aircraft carrier. Well...I think the Indian Navy might just have heard him and accepted his logic. So the 57 Rafales are for this huge aircraft carrier called INS South India!

That would be the redoubtable Philip sir! I have disagreed/debated with him on some points and point-of-view but i have a healthy respect for his (decades?) long experience.

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Oct 2019 16:08

Manish_P wrote:
sajaym wrote: One poster on BRF (don't remember who) has often remarked that India doesn't need aircraft carriers since the whole Southern Indian landmass jutting into the Indian Ocean is one huge aircraft carrier. Well...I think the Indian Navy might just have heard him and accepted his logic. So the 57 Rafales are for this huge aircraft carrier called INS South India!
That would be the redoubtable Philip sir! I have disagreed/debated with him on some points and point-of-view but i have a healthy respect for his (decades?) long experience.

the only thing that "aircraft carrier" is going nowhere, literally and figuratively !!

that analogy is probably not wise in a strategic sense and has limited use tactically as well with increasing Chinese force projection capabilities.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 10 Oct 2019 21:04

Certainly and for which, in addition to the AF fighter platforms like the Rafale, the need is for good AAD, anti missile defense (including BMD) and, perhaps more urgently, potent over and underwater naval assets. I was replying to the specific query about the identity of the poster..

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 10 Oct 2019 21:53

IAF can wish and demand what they dream but pigs will not fly. There is no way India can afford to buy, arm and maintain 114 Rafales - it is a fact. With the same money, we can buy other much needed and effective military gear, equipment, ammunition, artillery, infrastructure, amenities, tanks, rotary, cyber, missile and space assets. Fix the basics - everything else will fall in line. IAF could win the sky with diamond bullets but will not be able to hold the ground or the water.

I am sure GoI will give patient listening to IAF but will think about 1000 times before putting ink on the dotted lines.

nam · Post by **nam** » 10 Oct 2019 23:49

Cybaru wrote:The lack of MKI orders is a significant data point as far as IAF's budget goes. I really do think that is probably why IAF isn't ordering more MKI, to them they will continue to absorb 12 new Raffies instead of 12 MKIs moving forward if Dassault wins. The absorption rate will continue to remain as today other than the increase in the production of Tejas and faster deliveries there.

Probably it has been mentioned before. Su30 requires two pilots and is maintenance intensive. One of the prime reason given by IAF chief against more Su30 induction.

Rafale has one pilot and probably not as maintenance intensive as Su30. Ofcourse the best is LCA/MWF. Single pilot, single engine and probably cheaper to maintain than all these TFTA birds.

nam · Post by **nam** » 11 Oct 2019 00:05

My personal opinion has been that GoI is taking IAF for a joy ride on MMRCA 2. For all the ho ha about falling sqd numbers AND despite having a nationalist gov, India has actually ordered only 36 jets in the last 5 years of the new gov!

IAF wants Rafale. period. It is not bothered how GoI pays for it. Manohar Parakar, understood this. He probably asked IAF what's wrong with LCA. IAF said "No AESA, no SPJ, need better maintaince, no IFR. We would have bought more if these were present". So MK1A is the IAF's checklist ticket jet.

If things go as planned with FOC,MK1A, 18 Su30,21 Mig29, that is close to 200 jets in the next 7 years. If you can roll out 200 jets in 7 years, why can't we produce 40 more?

GoI knows very well, not even ONE MMRCA 2 jet will land on Indian soil in 7 years. GoI will do a wild goose chase with MMRCA 2, until MK1A starts flying or production starts.

Once MK1A is signed off.. IAF cannot complain anymore about LCA, when GoI asks, why are you not getting more LCA.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2019 02:03

Vice Admiral M.K. Roy wrote in US Naval Institute Proceedings Journal that India was like a giant aircraft carrier jutting out from Asia into the Indian Ocean.

I used to quote that often.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2019 02:07

nam,
Since 1948, IAf is used to getting its way with planes. So much so they managed to acquire a whole menagerie of them.
Do read ACM P.C. Lal memoirs of who he managed the logistics to create an effective fighting force. However after he retired the IAF we back to good old days.
The collapse of political center in 1988 led to tyranny of officialdom which was changed only in 2014 elections.
A thirty year grahan by both Rahu and Ketu.

Finally IAF has a chief who flew Indian made planes and knows first hand what needs to be done.
It will be done.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Oct 2019 02:13

Both CAS Bhadauria and GCaptain HVThakur are Jaguar pilots, and likely FSL's. They are both well versed with indigenization and hence the right man at the right time for the Tejas and other programs. There are several IAF TPs at HAL now.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 369591.cms

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Database/16026

- Wg Cdr Flight Test Squadron, ASTE Bangalore Commanding Officer
03 May 1999 - 17 Jul 2001 Wg Cdr No.5 Squadron Ambala Commanding Officer
- Gp Capt NFTC LCA Bangalore CTP/ PD
21 Mar 2005 - 22 Apr 2007 Gp Capt 12 Forward Base Support Unit Naliya Station Commander
- Air Cmde National Flight Test Center, ADA Bangalore Project Director

Wing Commander Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria (16026) Flying (Pilot) Wing Commander Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria (16026) F (P) is the Commanding Officer (CO) of a Jaguar squadron since May 99. He is an A2 Qualified Hying Instructor, Pilot Attack Instructor, Experimental Test Pilot and a graduate of Defence Services Command and Staff Course, Bangladesh. He has 3940 hrs of flying to his credit with over 900 hours of instructional flying and 400 hours of test flying. He has flown 380 hours as CO. He is an outstanding officer with exceptional professional knowledge and flying skills achieved through sheer hard work and dedication. Using his analytical mind and vision he devised a method for carrying bombing from the Jaguar aircraft using Global Positioning System (GPS). This was especially relevant for the bombing role of Jaguar aircraft in Op Safed Sagar. Even though the squadron was not tasked for Op Safed Sagar, the Jaguar GPS modification itself was carried out with significant contribution from him. The squadron also carried out trials on GPS anti-jamming measures. In acknowledgement of his capabilities, the squadron was also tasked to carry out ground adaptation of Matra Magic II air-to-air missile on Jaguar aircraft, a task which would, normally have been that of Aircraft Systems and Testing Establishment. The squadron is presently standing by to proceed with firing trials of the same missile. Wg Cdr Bhadauria was also detailed to give operational and user inputs to the design and development agencies carrying out Navigation and Weapon Aiming Sub System (Nav WASS) Jaguar upgrade of the IAF Under his leadership, the squadron has also submitted valuable papers on utilisation of Airborne Warning And Control System (AWACS), and night formation flying. During the period of his command the squadron has flown 4500 accident free hours. The squadron has also made serviceable and flown all aircraft on its establishment thereby achieving 100% serviceability. For his exceptional devotion to duty, commitment and dedication to service, high level of professional knowledge, and leading his squadron by example to achieve the highest standards of the [AF, the Hon'ble President is pleased to award 'Vayu Sena Medal' to Wing Commander Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Database/22105

Look at the stuff latter did for DARIN-2

Wing Commander (Now Group Captain) Harsh Vardhan Thakur (22105) Flying (Pilot) As the Commanding Officer of the unit since 29 Mar 10, he has led his recently resurrected unit with great passion and gusto. These have clearly been reflected in the numerous achievements of the unit and the high level of morale and motivation of all personnel of the squadron. The Sqn, under his command has aggressively transformed itself from a regular Jaguar fighter Sqn to take on the additional role of type training for the Jaguar fleet. The flying task of the Sqn was increased from 170 hrs per month to 300 hrs per month from Apr 10 onwards without any additional resources. The Sqn has sustained this flying over the past seven months and has flown an unprecedented 3400 hrs of accident free flying over the last one year. All this was only possible due to the untiring effort of the Officer and his highly motivated team. Through this effort, the Sqn has graduated seven U/T pilots to Day Ops qualification and an additional seven pilots are on the threshold of graduation, thus adding 14 more Ops pilots to the Jaguar fleet, which is the equivalent of one additional Sqn's aircrew resource. Meanwhile, all Ops pilots in the Sqn have also graduated to achieve all possible higher qualifications such as 4 ac leader, Trainer Captain, Supervisor, Night Strike Qualified, LDP Qualified, AAR Qualified etc. The Officer has also employed his skills as a test pilot to innovate and provided many value additions to the Jaguar DARIN II suite. One of these praiseworthy innovations was the incorporation of Full-Color, Moving Satellite Imagery into the Multi-Function Display, to aid in navigation, target acquisition, and target designation, at no additional cost to the IAF. For his exceptional devotion to duty, Hon'ble President is pleased to award 'Vayu Sena Medal (Devotion to Duty)' to Wing Commander Harsh Vardhan Thakur

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2019 02:16

Wow an exception al officer. And IAF is praiseworthy for nurturing his talents.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Oct 2019 02:43

Yes indeed. Both are exceptional officers and the IAF's loss is HAL's gain in Group Captain HV Thakur's case. Good also for aerospace development in India.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 11 Oct 2019 09:12

ramana wrote:Vice Admiral M.K. Roy wrote in US Naval Institute Proceedings Journal that India was like a giant aircraft carrier jutting out from Asia into the Indian Ocean.

I used to quote that often.

my bad Ramana ji. Have read it often in Philips posts. IIRC he also used to refer to it as a dagger. Very apt, I thought.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 11 Oct 2019 09:24

Indranil wrote:
brar_w wrote: If you zoom out you'll see something different though. There is some effort put to keep RCS low but in other areas they haven't bothered which is to be expected given diminishing returns for most missions given external carriage of weapons. Moreover, in this "near frontal stealth" mode it cannot even self-designate targets so there are limitations and trades involved.
That is exactly what I want to say when people say Rafale is stealthy. Yes they have serrated some joins, but the first order of stealth comes from other aspects like shaping. I cannot see anything in Rafale's shaping which is stealth! Yes, the engine face is hidden, but that is in true in the case of most modern aircrafts except the F-15, Su27 and Mig29 deriavatives.

So from front A FULLY LOADED RAFALE WILL BE detected at same distance as A FULLY LOADED SU 27, F-15 OR MIG 29?

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 11 Oct 2019 10:08

Query - If the Rafale will always function as part of a strike package where there will be aircrafts equipped with jamming pods to protect the strike package, then how relevant is Rafale's frontal stealth or lack thereof?

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 11 Oct 2019 13:12

sajaym wrote:Query - If the Rafale will ~~always~~ function as part of a strike package where there will be aircrafts equipped with jamming pods to protect the strike package, then how relevant is Rafale's frontal stealth or lack thereof?

Ambiguity!!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Oct 2019 16:11

sajaym wrote:Query - If the Rafale will always function as part of a strike package where there will be aircrafts equipped with jamming pods to protect the strike package, then how relevant is Rafale's frontal stealth or lack thereof?

Insert any 4th Gen fighter instead of Rafale and nothing will change in your question.