Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[Vivek K]

Need to get it flying soon. Can it be tested in a Jag? Or does it have to fly in Roos?

[Yagnasri]

Mango man question - Can we design a civilian business jet based on this engine?

Thanks in advance.

[Cybaru]

Back to need for a flying test bed. Lots of engines in many labs!

[JayS]

JayS, Please try to develop a milestone chart for the HTFE25.


List tasks
Engine Design
Engine prototype
Testing Core I & II
Cold Light up
FMU
Reheat
PTAE Demo
HTFE mating

Draw a bar chart.
Put a few inverted triangles to designate achievement.

And fill in the triangles for task completed.

--- Does Jaguar come under 9 ton class aircraft?

Can't promise, but will try.

I think the weight class they mentioned is Empty weight not Max TO weight. And that for non-A/B turbofan versions. Falcon 7x has 3x28kN engines and its MTOW is 33T while Basic Operating Weight (similar to operational empty weight of Fighter) of 16T.

2xHTFE-40 (AB + HTFE25) are good for Jaguar. I'd be surprised to see if HAL did not have this in mind since inception. The proposed Honewell F125IN engines has precisely 5760 lbf (25kN) Dry and 9080 lbf (40kN) Wet Thrust. Can't be coincidence.

With Honeywell deal down the drain we have ample time to develop HTFE40 for re-engining the Jags. At least the ones which are being upgraded to DARIN 3. But I don't know if IAF/HAL/MoD is even considering this option. Its doable in 5-7yrs from now of done at mission mode. That's good enough. Jags will remain with us for at least 20yrs from now. This is an opportunity which should be grabbed by both hands. We have a perfect matching engine and an well sorted out Fighter which needs re-engining. Else we will again be stuck in the new engine + new aircraft syndrome and next best option is IJT Sitara which is single engine jet so direct flight test on it is difficult. Since Jag is twin engine, it itself can act as flight test bed with one engine replaced by HTFE.

Ramana Saar, see if you can whisper this into some relevant ears.

[Ravi Karumanchiri]

Thank you JayS for your response above. You've raised good points and I'm grateful.

Were I to guess, I'd say the reason aircraft fuselage aren't dimpled like golf balls is down to concerns about metal fatigue and sheer/tear propagation. If the aluminium used is only as thick as it needs to be to contain the pressure cabin, dimpling would necessarily weaken it; and making everything thicker would necessarily weigh it down. IMO a light-weight surface coating that could be dimpled, should be experimented with, at least in a wind tunnel. [Ahhh, if I were only smarter and could go back to school, what I'd get up to!]



Hey, check these out too, I just found them now.... (so haven't watched, but they're definitely on-topic)....

[JTull]

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 52838?s=20

Interesting slide from Safran presentation to @rajnathsingh

Proposal for co-development and transfer of military aero-engine design capabilities to GTRE.

[chetak]

^^^ And the RD-33/93 itself is a pretty unreliable engine which we know from our own experience on the MiG-29s. You can also see anything powered by it from miles away because it smokes like chimney. lol

The truth is quality engines reside only in less than a handful of Western nations. But kudos to anyone who can get one to power a jet, it is arcane art of the highest order.

Could be mistaken but I think that these engines use imported fuel.

Unless things have changed, K-60 may not still be made here.

[dinesh_kimar]

Some Assumptions from above slide:

WKT the French / SAFRAN have already been given access to the Kaveri in an advisory capacity, and know a little about its shortcomings.

Hence, their proposal is essentially some "countermeasures" for major shortcomings of the Kaveri, which they have presented to Rajnath, in order to entice him. (Plan may be to make Rajnath commit 1-2 Billion Euro, so trying to hook him.)

The graphic in SAFRAN's slide is the Thermal FEA map of the turbine blade, with temperatures in degree Celsius. The hottest regions are in red, and the coolest regions in blue. Intermediate regions are in-between. Hottest temperature appears to be 1100 degree Celsius.

There is even mention of co-development for LCA (Kaveri engine) and AMCA (INFRA engine ? Short for Indo - France Jet Engine?)

This maybe shows that main problem in Kaveri, according to SAFRAN, is the HP turbine blades and their manufacturing.

Also, maybe the French offered complete ToT for Engine Assembly and Test. They did take him around the facility, and his tweets shows that he was impressed.

Also, We already achieved Kaveri with 72 KN in our labs, with an unreliable engine and no mfg. base

SAFRAN offer to co-develop engine might yield 70-72 KN with required reliability (the 150 h cyclic endurance test), with full mfg. base.

Good enough for LCA Trainer or LIFT.

Couple of these can be used for a "light" AMCA.

[Indranil]

And this is what Adm. Arun Prakash has to say about it

Slide says, "propose complete txfr of 'know-how' & 'know-why' allowing India to dev & produce engines... customized for its aircraft needs." Bound to be lucrative for the French but MoD must weigh huge "Opportunity Cost" of India NEVER making jet engine.
@ShivAroor @ReviewVayu

I couldn't agree more. They have slithered out of every technology transfer possible.

[kit]

Why not invest in Motor Sich and get them to open a subsidiary in India to manufacture engines? .. its a win-win for both nations.

[nam]

Can someone correct my understanding, if wrong.

Kaveri was suppose to have achieved 79-80KN? of thrust in F404 form factor. M88 is 75KN.

What are we getting with M88 core then?

[ramana]

Why not invest in Motor Sich and get them to open a subsidiary in India to manufacture engines? .. its a win-win for both nations.

GOI already paid to SAFRAN by way of offsets.

nam, it will be joint venture new design.

As we said before the M88 core needs to be resized to fit the Kaveri housing.

[Vips]

Why not invest in Motor Sich and get them to open a subsidiary in India to manufacture engines? .. its a win-win for both nations.

I am surprised Baba Kalyani has not bought that company if it is for sale. He took a huge risk when he bought the artillery gun factory with personal funds(not company finance). He had no experience in defense manufacturing and there was no clear cut policy of GOI to allow the private sector any meaningful play. Since then the policy has become clear, he has bagged orders, even backed a small jet engine manufacturing unit. So what is stopping him from now buying the Ukrainian jet engine manufacturing company?

[nachiket]

Too late. The Chinese got to Motor Sich already. Currently the Ukrainians are holding the deal up under American pressure. No idea how long that will last.

[Prem]

Livefist can confirm that the Indian defence minister was briefed about the Safran-DRDO partnership proposal in general terms today, but no mention was made about where things currently stand. While talks between Safran and the DRDO have apparently reached an impasse over cost and the modalities of execution, it is clear that any next steps will require a political decision to move forward.In a presentation to the visiting Indian defence minister Safran CEO Olivier Andries said, “India should provide an attractive business environment and not terrorise us with its tax and customs rules.” He also shared plans for the company to invest $150 million towards training and maintenance of the engines that will power the IAF’s Rafales.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/10 ... vival.html

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 52838?s=20

Interesting slide from Safran presentation to @rajnathsingh

Proposal for co-development and transfer of military aero-engine design capabilities to GTRE.

In that picture is the CEO of Safran - Olivier Andries - who is giving the presentation to the Defence Minister.

[V_Raman]

This is already known. The issue was with cost. We wanted it as part of offsets - Safran said no, we want hard money for this!

[ramana]

This is already known. The issue was with cost. We wanted it as part of offsets - Safran said no, we want hard money for this!

Not really. SAFRAN estimate to complete was much more than DRDO estimate.
I did comment a few pages ago.

viewtopic.php?p=2372872#p2372872

And I also said its political matter and not something DRDO should comment.

[Raghunathgb]

This is already known. The issue was with cost. We wanted it as part of offsets - Safran said no, we want hard money for this!

Not really. SAFRAN estimate to complete was much more than DRDO estimate.
I did comment a few pages ago.

viewtopic.php?p=2372872#p2372872

And I also said its political matter and not something DRDO should comment.

Wasn't there news on safran auditing Kaveri as being flight worthy? Was that wrong or reporting itself was incorrect ?

[chola]

Not really. SAFRAN estimate to complete was much more than DRDO estimate.
I did comment a few pages ago.

viewtopic.php?p=2372872#p2372872

And I also said its political matter and not something DRDO should comment.

Wasn't there news on safran auditing Kaveri as being flight worthy? Was that wrong or reporting itself was incorrect ?

Yes, some time in 2018. Someone reported that SAFRAN said the Kaveri was very close to being tested after they looked at it. We were even discussing which aircraft, like a twin-engined MiG-29, would it be tested. It was during that period when first heard about incorporating the French M88 core and about the Kaveri being enlarged for the SU-30MKI! Then nothing happened.

I knew all these stories sounded too good to be true. Otherwise, the disappointment would have been murderous.

[Indranil]

70 years of ToT did not teach us how to design. Our own aircraft. I thought that was a great and expensive learning. Today, nobody is offering us ToT on fighter aircraft. We simply saw through FGFA fake ToT.

Will we do the same mistake with engines. Time will prove.

[JayS]

It was during that period when first heard about incorporating the French M88 core

Not the first time. Has happened before for example look for news from 2008 on this. Supposedly IAF shot down proposal to make M88 core based proposal that time.

[chetak]

And this is what Adm. Arun Prakash has to say about it

Slide says, "propose complete txfr of 'know-how' & 'know-why' allowing India to dev & produce engines... customized for its aircraft needs." Bound to be lucrative for the French but MoD must weigh huge "Opportunity Cost" of India NEVER making jet engine.
@ShivAroor @ReviewVayu

I couldn't agree more. They have slithered out of every technology transfer possible.

they may be "TOT"ing a core with almost no growth potential and we have no way to tell because in this domain, we have, so far, only developed the technology to sharpen pencils.

Looking carefully at a gift horse in the mouth calls for multi domain expertise, especially one as expensive as this horse.

so, in reality we may get stuck with a lemon that is going nowhere fast

why would the wily frenchies be so willing to undercut their assured market in India

grippen is also willing for "complete" TOT on their aircraft (minus engine) and they have the capability to tinker with the engine.

could we play off one against the other.

[Cybaru]

grippen is also willing for "complete" TOT on their aircraft (minus engine) and they have the capability to tinker with the engine.

I don't think they have any more ability to tinker with an engine than we do. Letting Gripey even setting a good foot would be stupid.

[nam]

I asked this question earlier, how will M88 core with 75KN thrust will help Kaveri, which is already giving out 79KN?

[kit]

And this is what Adm. Arun Prakash has to say about it

grippen is also willing for "complete" TOT on their aircraft (minus engine) and they have the capability to tinker with the engine.

could we play off one against the other.

I think the only way this "playing off" thing will work is getting the Kaveri engine to actually do a powered test flight in an aircraft, the moment India nears the goal of self-reliance in engine tech every one and his uncle will make a beeline to India offering their greatest and best engines !!

I don't think the Swedes have anything by way of engine tech to offer India.

[chetak]

grippen is also willing for "complete" TOT on their aircraft (minus engine) and they have the capability to tinker with the engine.

I don't think they have any more ability to tinker with an engine than we do. Letting Gripey even setting a good foot would be stupid.

quite some time ago, they converted a civil commercial engine to an afterburning variant that powered one of their early fighters

per wiki

The Volvo RM8 is a low-bypass afterburning turbofan jet engine developed for the Saab 37 Viggen fighter. In 1962, the Pratt & Whitney JT8D-1 engine was chosen to power the Viggen in absence of a suitable and available engine designed for military use. Basically a licensed-built version of the JT8D, heavily modified for supersonic speeds, with a Swedish-designed afterburner, the RM8 was produced by Svenska Flygmotor (later known as Volvo Aero).

RM8A - AJ 37 Viggen
Since the original engine was constructed for subsonic speeds, most part of the engine had to be redimensioned for the higher Mach-speeds in a military aircraft. Fans and turbine were altered, a new burn-chamber designed and a totally new fuel-control system for both engine and afterburner.[2]

RM8B - JA 37 Viggen
The flight envelope for the fighter-version demanded both more power and better compressor stall margins. This led to a new fan-stage (the so-called "0-stage") was introduced, making the engine longer. This led to a total redesign of the fans, the low-pressure compressor and the burn-chambers

[Indranil]

Volvo overplays its modifications to the 404. If they had the ability to design and build its own engines, it would have.

The French are not going to give us any ToT on the core. They are going to give us a working Kaveri derivative with their core replacing the Kabini core. We will be extremely foolish to accept this, because it will not give us any capability to design our own engines in the future. The French put 50 billion in the development of Rafale. They are going to have close to 200 Rafales in French Air force and Navy eventually. May be another 150 in export orders. That's a huge development that they willingly took to retain design capabilities within France. Now, is the time for them to recuperate as much as the cost as they possibly can.

We should be able to see through this simple equations and understand that we need to bite the bullet on engine design. It will take us 10 billion to get there at least. But airplanes worth 100s of billions are resting on this development. Thankfully, many stalwarts understand this and are talking for it.

One must also be wary of reporters who are flown to facilities to give them dekho. It's indirect lifafa (if direct lifafas are not involved). These reporters have enormous reach and can shape public opinion.

What we need with our engine program is not a band aid to get Kaveri working. IMHO, we need:
1. A true national priority program, not like Kaveri, not like NCAD.
2. Let ADA define the engine specs that are required for MWF/AMCA. Hopefully, they are the same engines
3. Make it a competition, GTRE, HAL, any private company(like Bharat Forge) can participate
4. Funding will be provided by GoI in a stepwise fashion with well defined deliverables
5. Players will be downselected to two competitors for the final engine deliverable.

I can't believe that we can design HTT-40, IJT, SPORT, LCA, MWF, AMCA and we can't design a twin engined transporter. Can a 80 kN engine be designed around the same core as designed above? If so, we have a base for a 100 passenger RTA, 15-20 ton transport aircraft, AeWAC.

Just how big is the carrot? Why are we missing the obvious?

[chetak]

I think the only way this "playing off" thing will work is getting the Kaveri engine to actually do a powered test flight in an aircraft, the moment India nears the goal of self-reliance in engine tech every one and his uncle will make a beeline to India offering their greatest and best engines !!

I don't think the Swedes have anything by way of engine tech to offer India.

One was thinking more in terms of getting consultancy from the swedes to technically evaluate the M88 core offer wrt its growth potential.

[Cybaru]

Get the french to commit to the following.

1. Make the M88 in India for any follow on raffy orders.
2. Work on indigenizing the cold section (85%) if we need to (Find local Indian MIC to provide all parts)
3. Work on a follow on 75 KN / 115 KN indo-french engine for AMCA
4. Develop ecosystem for testing new engines (probably just the flying testbed)
5. GTRE works on making sure we own the cold section for this new joint engine (Take Kaveri engine and scale-up or adapt the M88 engine to higher thrust - where ever we are in the tech cycle)
6. GTRE continues working on our own hot section independently - (swap hot section with ours and test, till we get what we want)

85% flying engine that we can own is better than 0% engine we own.

[nam]

Development of Aero turbine engine should come under PMO. Just like SSBN was. As simple as that.

Not under MoD funding paper pushing. As long as it is under MoD, there will no funds, no testing ecosystem set up nothing.

[chetak]

Development of Aero turbine engine should come under PMO. Just like SSBN was. As simple as that.

Not under MoD funding paper pushing. As long as it is under MoD, there will no funds, no testing ecosystem set up nothing.

saar, the problem starts and ends with human resources.

The way that the agencies in India have handled the aero engine development for decades now does not generate confidence in anyone, especially the guys controlling the purse strings.

and now the PM is looking at a possible multi billion dollar payout to the frenchies without any guarantee of the all important RoI.

[Indranil]

Chetak ji,

I agree with you. But you will also agree that we can't afford to start from scratch. There are a lot of good apples in the basket. The problem is to identify these good apples and empower them.

Or as I said earlier empower a competition with a HUGE carrot at the end. The wheat will separate from the chaff automagically. Let IAF run the competition! The American way could be a good model to emulate.

[Shankk]

And this is what Adm. Arun Prakash has to say about it

Slide says, "propose complete txfr of 'know-how' & 'know-why' allowing India to dev & produce engines... customized for its aircraft needs." Bound to be lucrative for the French but MoD must weigh huge "Opportunity Cost" of India NEVER making jet engine.
@ShivAroor @ReviewVayu

I couldn't agree more. They have slithered out of every technology transfer possible.

I tend to agree with this. There is not going to be any significant tech transfer for something like a fighter engine. Doing that kills a golden goose for no good returns and more importantly makes India independent which is the worst case scenario. At best they will provide help in some areas for arms and legs in the form of Rafael or submarine or some other deal.

If there is anything more to it, it could possibly mean India is closer to a breakthrough in engine development. There are two leading indicators of India achieving something indigenously and they are

• 1) Pakistan gets to say they have developed capability to do the same thing (usually only superficially)
  2) India is offered a product that was denied earlier (like in the case of AESA radar)

In this case, #1 is out of question and #2 is available for money but technology transfer is most likely a bait.

[ramana]

Chetak and Indranil All concerns are noted and being addressed. Give a little time.
No IAF is not the agency to run any competition.

Also there are many who were or are part of the problem sniping from peanut gallery.
a whole ecosystem has been built up.

[chetak]

Chetak ji,

I agree with you. But you will also agree that we can't afford to start from scratch. There are a lot of good apples in the basket. The problem is to identify these good apples and empower them.

Or as I said earlier empower a competition with a HUGE carrot at the end. The wheat will separate from the chaff automagically. Let IAF run the competition! The American way could be a good model to emulate.

sirji,

we need to keep egos firmly in check and pool all available resources in various agencies/institutions from the whole country and then setup the new organisation.

take the project control out of the hands of the usual suspects and empower smaller teams with ruthless administration and timeline oriented technical milestones and finally bring in a 3-5 strong management board at the top.

need to tap organizations like DAE and ISRO too as both have a fine understanding of metallurgy.

[nam]

Development of Aero turbine engine should come under PMO. Just like SSBN was. As simple as that.

Not under MoD funding paper pushing. As long as it is under MoD, there will no funds, no testing ecosystem set up nothing.

saar, the problem starts and ends with human resources.

The way that the agencies in India have handled the aero engine development for decades now does not generate confidence in anyone, especially the guys controlling the purse strings.

and now the PM is looking at a possible multi billion dollar payout to the frenchies without any guarantee of the all important RoI.

I think we need to step back and define why are we calling Kaveri a failure. Why is Kaveri a failure when it produces 79KN-81KN compare to 75KN M88, which is used on IAF's dream, the Rafale? Kaveri is in F404 form factor, which is a showcase of years of American engineering!

Even the RD33/93 is bigger than Kaveri

We have achieved a 79KN engine, spending only 600M dollars! Peanuts considering what Chinese are spending.

Kaveri is under-powered for single engine LCA. Would it be considered under-powered, if LCA was a twin engine?

No one calls M88 under powered.

[nam]

We can blame project management, as much we want. But the fact is at 600M dollar spend, you cannot get a 89KN in F404 form factor.

If we achieve this, we should put a huge board on Mount Everest "Only idiots spend billions on jet engines". for every one to see.

I am always amazed, that at that kind of peanuts money, Kaveri is even working at 79KN!

[Rakesh]

Here we go around the merry-go-round again

The French, just like the Americans, will never give out the tech of the hot section of the engine. Why should they?

France makes fresh efforts to revive indigenous Kaveri jet engine project
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 532719.cms
11 Oct 2019

According to sources, the French side emphasised that India was the only country to which such advanced technology transfer was being offered and that the country would achieve ‘sovereignty’ on aero engine tech.

The French side pledged to transfer more work for the production of the M-88 engine that powers its fighter jets to India if orders for more of the combat aircraft are received. “If India orders 36 more Rafale jets, more engine parts would be made in India (basically the cold section of the M88) to meet offset conditions,” sources aware of the briefing said.

As reported by ET, plans to revive the indigenous Kaveri project with the help of French technology fell through after the Indian side found the pricing prohibitive. Talks hit a roadblock after it emerged that only a part of the offsets — just over Euro 250 million — could be utilised for the projects and that Defence Research and Development Organisation would have had to provide the remaining Euro 500 million.

[Indranil]

The audacity, stupidity and irony of the headline:

France makes fresh efforts to revive indigenous Kaveri jet engine project.

To what end?