Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

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Virendra
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

I am in London and have reader access to British Library. In case a member is looking for something specific which isn't available elsewhere (except British Library), let me know and I will try to help.
They don't issue stuff to take away. You can get it reserved and read within library. Copy service is available but perhaps (not sure) costly.
They can also fetch stuff on loan from other local libraries if we request.

Regards,
Virendra
ramana
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ramana »

Virendra If you find anything on why Timur retreated from the Himalayan foothills and did not replace Feroz Shah Tughlaq would be grateful.
Virendra
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

Namaste Ramana
I can search for books on Timur and look them up. But beside that, do you have any specific piece of text / book that you want accessed for this?
I don't know where else to start or what else to search for :P
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Yagnasri »

Any records on 27 year war between Maratas and Mughals is one. There is one book by Balkishan on Shivaji Maharaj which was not readily available is another. This book said to have been reprinted recently but I could not get it. This writer wrote the story of Shivaji Maharaj from Indic eyes.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by disha »

Virendra wrote:I am in London and have reader access to British Library. In case a member is looking for something specific which isn't available elsewhere (except British Library), let me know and I will try to help.
They don't issue stuff to take away. You can get it reserved and read within library. Copy service is available but perhaps (not sure) costly.
They can also fetch stuff on loan from other local libraries if we request.

Regards,
Virendra
Do you have access to Harappa/Mohenjadaro seals or books describing those seals?
Virendra
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

Easy guys .. my access is what anybody with a Id and address proof in UK can get for free. :(
I go to the library once a week only, for my studies.
But I will try to address these queries one by one.

Can you please help me by looking up the library's catalogues here. Let me know what you want from it. I can access it, read it there and revert :-
General/Main Catalogue - http://explore.bl.uk/primo_library/libw ... &vid=BLVU1
Catalogue of Archives and old Manuscripts - http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_libra ... Login=true
ParGha
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ParGha »

Not quite ancient or medieval history, but the Brits recently released some home videos of a senior ICS diplomat and his family being escorted through Iran by the secretive Indian Long Range Squadron (ILRS). Its war history states that the ILRS patrolled the Iran-USSR border, but this footage is really in Iran-Baluchistan border area and their security is also handed off to a Red Army patrol. I am curious if there are better records of where ILRS were really deployed, and how far south the Red Army patrolled?
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ShauryaT »

A basic question, hope some old timers or the Author can help. Where has Airavat's blog moved to?
ramana
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ramana »

csaurabh wrote:
ramana wrote:Grant Duff.
It's there in Archive.org
Downloading now.. Isn't there a good book by an Indian author? /disappoint
There is another good book on Marathas.

The Founding of Maratha Freedom

by S.R. Sharma

Look at archive.org
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Vikas »

https://www.myindiamyglory.com/2018/10/ ... ted-turks/

Are there blogs or articles related to Emperor Lalitaditya of Kashmir which are more authentic. As per articles, His empire extended from Central Asia to Orrisa and Gujarat. He even had forces stationed in South India.
There is hardly any authentic material available on him nor he is part of any CBSE/NCERT syllabus.
Virendra
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

ShauryaT wrote:A basic question, hope some old timers or the Author can help. Where has Airavat's blog moved to?
It isn't available anymore. Many people are looking for him :)
Some web archives might have the vlog posts.
But better to read here - https://www.rajputcommunity.in/tags/airavat-singh
I don't know if this site has all his blog posts. But I could find many of them.

Regards,
Virendra
Virendra
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

Vikas wrote:https://www.myindiamyglory.com/2018/10/ ... ted-turks/

Are there blogs or articles related to Emperor Lalitaditya of Kashmir which are more authentic. As per articles, His empire extended from Central Asia to Orrisa and Gujarat. He even had forces stationed in South India.
There is hardly any authentic material available on him nor he is part of any CBSE/NCERT syllabus.
Please search archives of this forum/thread. Lalitaditya was discussed many times. Rajatarangini is the only authentic source I remember.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ShauryaT »

Virendra wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:A basic question, hope some old timers or the Author can help. Where has Airavat's blog moved to?
It isn't available anymore. Many people are looking for him :)
Some web archives might have the vlog posts.
But better to read here - https://www.rajputcommunity.in/tags/airavat-singh
I don't know if this site has all his blog posts. But I could find many of them.

Regards,
Virendra
Thanks Virendra :D Be in touch @ShauryaTweets
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Gyan »

Re Yash G

Shivaji lost many of his forts & was imprisoned by Aurangzeb. He escaped & inspite of being pretty weak military wise, He soon crowned himself Chattarparti right in the teeth of all Muslim Rulers around him. Why?
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by YashG »

Gyanji - Its a complex picture. But I have no concrete answers to this - perhaps if you're suggesting something pl elaborate.
But all said and done - Shivaji was great thinker/commander and like one he set into place the morale and basics of Maratha empire/warfare machinery.

The connon tech/tactics has little role to play during Shivaji's reign - during this time, the Marathas were still building their military prowess while Mughal empire was waning. Sometime in next decades, Marathas ascendant power took better of waning Mughal power.

In the hindsight if Maraths cud have taken over the trade on Indian coasts they cud have built a world beating empire - bt like in Assaye - Marathas were no match for British warfare matrix. ( some people say, if not for British, we would be still under Islamic rule - I differ, we wud have been under Maratha rule & would have become nation state much earlier)
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Gyan »

Yash G, thats why I say, your military thinking must consider ideology as part of armoury. Shivaji killing of Afzal Khan was not a fight between 2 individuals in which Shivaji came good. Shivaji put many years of preparation in that battle.

My "guess" is that Rajputs persuaded Shivaji during his captivity to escape, reach South & Crown himself King, Chattarpati. Mughals were at their Peak during Shivaji & Sambhaji time. But they collapsed within 12 years of Aurangzeb death.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by nachiket »

Gyan and YashG, there was a 10 page thread about Maratha History some years back on BRF. You guys might be interested. Link: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5061

Unfortunately Atri ji who provided most of the information in that thread does not post here anymore.
YashG
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by YashG »

Gyan wrote:Yash G, thats why I say, your military thinking must consider ideology as part of armoury. Shivaji killing of Afzal Khan was not a fight between 2 individuals in which Shivaji came good. Shivaji put many years of preparation in that battle.

My "guess" is that Rajputs persuaded Shivaji during his captivity to escape, reach South & Crown himself King, Chattarpati. Mughals were at their Peak during Shivaji & Sambhaji time. But they collapsed within 12 years of Aurangzeb death.
Very well could be - he learnt from Rajputs and beyond too.

Also without battlefield advantages that the initial waves of Islamic militaries inherited from the Europe-Central Asia axis - the Islamic armies were just vulnerable. So it was a matter of time before these advantages dissipated and some Hindu ruler who had a deeper legitimacy within Hindu ranks emerged. In that sense I'm also 'guessing' with wider support of the wealthy/powerful Hindu classes, Shivaji had more at his disposal. But this factor has to be limited significance, since Shivaji also had and leveraged Muslims conscripts.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

A thread I wrote on the Agra interplay of Shivaji, Rajputs and Mughals; using lesser known primary sources.
https://twitter.com/virendrarathore/sta ... 2210002945

Its blog version.
https://agrippedsoul.wordpress.com/2020 ... interplay/

Regards,
Virendra
Virendra
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

Also have a book coming up, on Prithviraj Chauhan.
Image
ramana
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ramana »

Wish you all the best and looking forward to reading it.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ramana »

You are a Rathore!

Pranam to your family.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by darshhan »

Virendra wrote:Also have a book coming up, on Prithviraj Chauhan.
Image
All the best. I am waiting.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by darshhan »

Virendra wrote:A thread I wrote on the Agra interplay of Shivaji, Rajputs and Mughals; using lesser known primary sources.
https://twitter.com/virendrarathore/sta ... 2210002945

Its blog version.
https://agrippedsoul.wordpress.com/2020 ... interplay/

Regards,
Virendra
Very detailed research.
Virendra
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

Thanks darshhan and ramana
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ParGha »

YashG, the Doji Bara famine killed 11 Million in North Karnataka / South Maharashtra; the prime recruiting grounds for historic Maratha, Rashtrakuta, Chalukya armies, and even today the grounds for Maratha Light Infantry. It is a little hard to build a nation-state when 25% of your support base is dead (the population of this region was estimated at 40 million in 1790s), and other 75% are probably weakened by starvation and malnutrition. El Nino destroyed the Marathas. The British just delivered the coup de grace.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by nachiket »

ParGha wrote:YashG, the Doji Bara famine killed 11 Million in North Karnataka / South Maharashtra; the prime recruiting grounds for historic Maratha, Rashtrakuta, Chalukya armies, and even today the grounds for Maratha Light Infantry. It is a little hard to build a nation-state when 25% of your support base is dead (the population of this region was estimated at 40 million in 1790s), and other 75% are probably weakened by starvation and malnutrition. El Nino destroyed the Marathas. The British just delivered the coup de grace.
It wasn't that simple. The problem with later Maratha armies was a lack of capable leadership. The loss of Peshwa Madhavrao at an early age was a huge setback for the Marathas. He had shown glimpses of being a capable leader at a young age. He could have walked in the footsteps of Bajirao-I if he had lived long enough and been much more of a challenge to the English. The main issue was that Maratha armies (and other Indic ones) did not adapt to the changing nature of warfare in India because of the rise of the European powers. The European armies were already experienced in the new warfare having fought numerous wars amongst each other and developed tactics learnt the hard way along with the technological base and manufacturing capacity needed for the type of armies that they fielded. Marathas on the other hand were dependent on the French and others for muskets and artillery and even in some cases officers for those forces when they fielded them (the Battle of Koregaon being a prime example). And this was an issue even before their battles with the English. Even during Panipat-III they were almost completely dependent on Ibrahim Khan Gardi and his force of artillery and musketeers for their gunpowder units. All of the major Maratha commanders were still cavalry commanders while it was increasingly becoming obvious that a European style Line infantry heavy force armed with muskets and supported by a lot of modern artillery worked far better on the battlefield with the cavalry being used as a supporting force or shock troops. A far sighted leader would have worked to fix this situation. Unfortunately the Marathas lost the only leader who might have done it.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Adrija »

Yes, fully agree... the loss of Madhavrao at such a young age was just tragic for India...
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Aditya_V »

The question is why were they dependent on a single leader and why was the defeat not avenged , shows there was lack of institutional planning which continues to this day.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Adrija »

Aditya_V garu,

Not sure which defeat being avenged which you are referring to?

Re reliance on a single leader, agree........... but even till today a single person does make difference..stability at the top is almost a sine qua non for an organization/ country/ empire enduring...... so many examples from history and now corporates.... the Mughals because of Akbar's tenure, the Qing empire due to the Qianlong emperor (and his grandson I think who between them ruled for a collective 120 years)... deng of course.

Even in the modern age - where institutions and communications infrastructure is far far more instantaneous and hence likely resilient- one can almost directly correlate the success of a corporation to stability at the top (HON w Cote, P&G etc etc).. so individuals DO matter

The downside is also the same- Marcos dragged the Philippines down from being amongst the most prosperous countries in Asia to being amongst the poorest... the long tenure of CEOs at GE at the end actually accelerated their downfall

So luck of the draw I think....... there is a tide in the affairs of men and all that........which is why perhaps NaMo is harbinger of a new India..
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Aditya_V »

Avenged, is after 3rd battle of Panipat, why did not rest of Indians again form an Army and go after Ahmad Shah Abdali in some time ? There was institutional failure and kind of explains our China policy today. Had we attacked China in 63 with proper build up we would not be facing the same situation.

We always seek peace with those who are not interested in peace like Pakistan.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Adrija »

Panipat III was a bloody and costly and ultimately pyrrhic victory for Abdali... the Marathas took ample revenge and reclaimed their lands under MadhavaRao I ... by 1770s they had taken back control of pretty much all of North India... please do google Maratha Resurrection

The Durrani empire pretty much collapsed within 10 years of Panipat
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by YashG »

I'd agree with @nachiket about Marathas not adapting to new warfare tactics.
If you'll go into the fineprint of the Battle of Assaye - you'd realise there was very little differentiating us from the British. We could have almost won that war. The Marathas fought so well - even to the point that when the cannon line was run over by british cavalry - the cannoners feigned death and later got up and fired the britisg cavalry from behind. And yet we didnt win the battle.

But for a moment if I imagine, we would have won this war - what next?
The trend I saw in the battle of Assaye was the same I saw in the battle of Plassey and then that of Buxar. In each of these battle, the superior artillery ( even less in numbers than the Indians) and warfare tactics always won the day.

At the end the mechanics is simple - Geography & Knowledge transfer. In his Book Guns, Germs & Steel, Jared Diamond drives home a simple point - some societies develop better tech/tactics due to east-west axis of transfer of knowledge. Indian was never on this knowledge transfer axis that stretch from British at one end and Japan at another. This lesson is most difficult for us to accept but whatever we lacked wasnt our fault - it was just cruel geography.

On the brighter side - this axis is no more relevant due to digital tech now. So you will see now Indian tech progressing way faster since we are quite on that digital axis now ( our closeness to US, Europe). Actually China is now no longer on that axis. It will show in results, in 10-15 years!
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Adrija »

YashG ji, may I please beg to differ- firstly Diamond simply ignored India in his analysis... we meet all his conditions of geography and societal progress and yet remain an underdeveloped economy- my read is that he does not want to acknowledge the fact that India was in turmoil and under slavery for 1000 years... even then India was THe richest country till 1700 (yes, India, not China)

We are and always were on the east west axis

IMVVHO of course.. no offence meant
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by SRajesh »

Aditya_V wrote:The question is why were they dependent on a single leader and why was the defeat not avenged , shows there was lack of institutional planning which continues to this day.
Adityaji
Part of that problem was the Patrilineal inheritance of the title of 'Peshwa'!!
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by YashG »

@Adrija yes ur correct that Diamond's book very much misses India. To my own surprise and many others - thats quite a miss.

When u say we meet his conditions of geography/societal progress (I'm assuming access to nutritious seeds, availability of useful/large mammals) - Again you're correct. We do. Infact bdue to that we were a flourishing, prosperous society sometime till later part of the 1st millennium - like u said.

But what we did not have was sufficient knowledge to develop our warfare tech - simply because if you'll see the eurasian landmass, british isles to Chinese coast. All along that land mass - the war, threat perception and therefore exchange of knowledge (Also due to silk route) was pervasive. Crusades, mongolian hordes and a lot more. Infact we in India didnt bear the brunt of mongolian hordes (in the same way, extent eurasia did). When Babur came calling from Ferghana valley, his province was nothing but a post in middle of Silk Route and hence access to knowledge.

My point here is our knowledge transfer on warfare tactics was weak. We stayed weak militarily and thence always vulnerable from riders from north who came with ever new cavalry tactics.

If you for a moment go by this narrative, it will be easy to see in a moment that why today the same empires who were strong on silk route are like primitive militia. While India today is easily more powerful than all of the central asia and middle eastern armies combined. What changed?

Perhaps geography today no longer undermines the destiny of societies like it did. That also means, history wont repeat itself. 21st century communication tech has finally put an end to the '1000 years' turmoil and slavery.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by SRajesh »

^^^
Yashji
For a long time the 'dharmic way' of fighting or 'Dharma Yudh' had been drilled in the folks pschye
And relying on individual valour than collective has been our down fall.
Even though Battle of Panipat I was green on green action: Babur's small 'thops' or canons was enough to frighten the elephants who turned around and crushed their own
We were slow in adapting to modern warfare and still relied on cavalry and individual valour
The invaders who had canons and muskets found it too easy even though they has smaller forces!!
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Adrija »

But what we did not have was sufficient knowledge to develop our warfare tech - simply because if you'll see the eurasian landmass, british isles to Chinese coast. All along that land mass - the war, threat perception and therefore exchange of knowledge (Also due to silk route) was pervasive. Crusades, mongolian hordes and a lot more. Infact we in India didnt bear the brunt of mongolian hordes (in the same way, extent eurasia did). When Babur came calling from Ferghana valley, his province was nothing but a post in middle of Silk Route and hence access to knowledge.
YashG ji, yes- India as a sub-continent was sheltered quite a bit due to its geographic features and hence peace largely prevailed for a long time till the Moslem invaders (motivated by lust and loot) started coming in on a regular basis.

So we certainly did miss out on technological and organizational advancements in especially the field of warfare... is that a sign of a "societal flaw"? Perhaps... as a civilization India has always been about mastery over self and harmony with nature; as opposed to the western world where the outlook is diametrically opposite (indulgence of self and mastery over nature). It has served them well in making material progress especially after the Black Death which wiped out all incumbent orthodoxy.......

But win some, lose some....our mindset and worldview arose due to the sheltered nature which our geography afforded us- unparalleled in the ancient world- geographically isolated but very fertile land, warm temperatures etc- which allowed for settled agriculture and urban society which afforded material surplus for leisure and thought to develop. So where we advanced (metaphysical thought and practices) was at the cost of material advancement which then proved a heavy drawback when invaders with a fundamentally different worldview came to our land..

Sorry for the rambling but wanted to share what I think are root causes of why we are what we are
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by YashG »

Adrija wrote: But win some, lose some....our mindset and worldview arose due to the sheltered nature which our geography afforded us- unparalleled in the ancient world- geographically isolated but very fertile land, warm temperatures etc- which allowed for settled agriculture and urban society which afforded material surplus for leisure and thought to develop. So where we advanced (metaphysical thought and practices) was at the cost of material advancement which then proved a heavy drawback when invaders with a fundamentally different worldview came to our land..
yes I agree. 101%.

Perhaps maybe its our spirituality that developed and allowed to conjure up zero. Zero was a leap in human thought, of which I think there is no other parallel. Only a well developed spiritual society could have invented it.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by YashG »

Rsatchi wrote:^^^
Yashji
For a long time the 'dharmic way' of fighting or 'Dharma Yudh' had been drilled in the folks pschye
And relying on individual valour than collective has been our down fall.
Even though Battle of Panipat I was green on green action: Babur's small 'thops' or canons was enough to frighten the elephants who turned around and crushed their own
We were slow in adapting to modern warfare and still relied on cavalry and individual valour
The invaders who had canons and muskets found it too easy even though they has smaller forces!!
Absolutely.
In battle of plassey - 12 odd cast iron cannons went against 30 or more cannons of the Bengal state. And you knw what happened next.
But our 'thops' are also good are good as well. This piece of history is behind us. That 1000 year humiliation is also never going to happen again.
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