Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Oct 2019 02:14

mmasand wrote:Any truth to the rumour floating around that China is looking to 'sell' its first aircraft carrier to TSP?

If true, it will be a chess move from the Chinese Navy. From their bases in the South China Sea, the PLAN have to circumvent significant landmass in South East Asia to reach the Indian Ocean. And the PLAN knows that in a conflict, that one of their CBGs sailing through the Malacca Straits would get easily detected. The other (asinine) option for the PLAN is to go south of Australia and then enter the Indian Ocean. Now station (in peacetime) the Liaoning at Gwadar and the equation changes for the PLAN. They will have access to the Arabian Sea and the Persian Gulf. In a conflict, the vessel will not have the same disadvantages.

If the news is true, then the Liaoning will be operated by a token Pakistan Navy crew, but for all sense-and-purposes...will fall under the responsibility of the PLAN. The PLAN will also bear all the OPEX of the vessel (and air component) as well. India's decision to reportedly (not confirmed though) donate a Kilo Class boat to Burma is likely to patrol the mouth of the Malacca Straits. Will be operated by a token crew of the Myanmar Navy, but will have significant Indian naval presence on board. Why make the journey from a naval base at Vizag, when you can sail from Rangoon instead? And from Rangoon, the entrance to the Malacca Straits is straight down.

The more assets the PLAN can station around the Indian Ocean (and beyond) the greater flexibility they will have in a future conflict.

Drag & Drop the map below to see an enlarged view of the map.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 04 Oct 2019 21:32

This thread is about JF-17 module being adapted to DCS simulator (PC game). Anyways, it does contain posts from developers about JF-17 capabilities including radar and stuff. I am sure the info being put out in to the game and in open source are quite sanitized version of the aircraft's real capabilities. But some of it might be interesting to get a flavor and how it compares against some of the systems that we have.

I believe the modeled version in the game is JF-17 Block 1 and the developers mentioned the source of documentation is a JF-17 manual circa 2007.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=207195&page=64

Here is a tutorial/demo of the plane's air-air radar modes.
Contains:

0:03 - Introduction
0:30 - Introduction to IFF
0:36 - IFF Setup
2:35 - Air-to-Air Radar Modes
4:33 - Weapon Setup
5:57 - Radar STT Mode
7:00 - HUD Information
7:58 - Radar DTT Mode
8:29 - Pre-launch Information
9:00 - Weapon Launch
10:24 - Radar ACM Mode
11:20 - CMS Modes
13:39 - Radar Guns Mode
13:49 - Guns Setup
14:47 - Poll Request

I think that Youtube channel contains other tutorial/demo videos as well.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 05 Oct 2019 00:06

Should have been in military humour thread.

https://youtu.be/trns_jWEwNQ

nam · Post by **nam** » 05 Oct 2019 00:20

Murmur of the best thing after sliced bread, JF Blk 3, is not getting a AESA radar

Now the whole "Air cooled" AESA thing makes sense. Seems like the jet is not able to meet the power requirement for liquid cooling the radar, hence the "air cooled" version was brought out.

It must have low MTBF and low sensitivity due to absence of liquid cooling..

So not enough power for KLJ AESA and the air cooled one not meeting the requirement. With 81-82KN it is no wonder it is under powered!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Oct 2019 11:36

Regarding JF-17 I would like to see a few videos

1. The Aircraft completing a full loop which all fighters including Mig 21 do
2. The launch of a missile other than PL-5 from the aircraft
3. Video of the aircraft doing aerial refuelling
4. Video of the aircraft releasing PGM's.

In all countries other than China and now their customer, Aircraft do these at the testing stage, prove the milestones, then go into production after extensive tests 2-3 years down the line. Here is an aircraft with 120 plus numbers in service which does not do these.

Even on 27 Feb 19 morning what did the JF-17 do

1) Lock with its FCR radar at the M-2000 and then 2) launch P10 A Missiles?- No
2) Release H-4 Bombs like Mirages, LGB which the group of 3 F-16s came close released at Nowshera sector?- No

They realeased MK-83 with Range Extension kits which missed thier targets by a mile. No wonder they closed thier airspace and damaged their civilian aviation sector by closign much of thier airspace for 4 months. The main weapons in arsenal in PAF inventory is 75 74 F-16's.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Oct 2019 16:59

nam wrote:Murmur of the best thing after sliced bread, JF Blk 3, is not getting a AESA radar

Source?

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 06 Oct 2019 21:06

Since balakot thread put to archieve, I am not sure where would the news go so adding it here.

Luke Airman recieves service-level award for security of PAF F-16 technology

.....
Wilson was stationed at Shahbaz air base, Pakistan, from March 2018-2019, serving as the Technical Security Team (TST) superintendent. He led four U.S. Air Force Airmen and 30 U.S. contractors and executed end-use monitoring of U.S. weapons and technology, preventing the unauthorized transfer to other countries.

He managed the security compliance oversight for Pakistan’s F-16 program, enabling Pakistani counterinsurgency and counterterrorism operations to successfully prevent violent extremist organizations from sabotaging the efforts of the Pakistan state.

“Wilson’s leadership in completing the TST mission ensured the partnership between the U.S. and Pakistan remained strong to maintain the strategic purpose of their relationship,” said Maj. Americo Penaflor, 50th Missile Defense Agency, Schriever AFB, Colo., deputy of strategic planning, and Wilson’s prior TST chief in Pakistan. “The protection of technology through the processes that Wilson enforced was literally the glue that held together the U.S. and Pakistan relationship. If this mission failed and the aircraft were compromised, there would be negative impacts to the counterterrorism mission in which Pakistan supports the U.S.”

......

-Ankit

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Oct 2019 01:13

So the US would have immediately known about the loss of F16 and probably wanted the debris brought to them. That's why drop tank and any parts of F16 were quickly loaded into PA trucks and shipped off.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Oct 2019 15:55

Quick thoughts on state of Pakistan Army (PA) Armored Corps basis a recent report -

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... 8U.twitter

(1) PA Armored Corps is not exactly in top shape and there's not modernization happening. Pakistan simply lacks the money for undertaking the much required upgrades.

(2) T-80UD tanks were inducted in mid-90s. Even latest T-80UD would be reaching 20 years of service life. And it forms the core of their vaunted 1st Armored Division under Multan based 2 Corps (Army Reserve South). While Pakistan does a good job at their rebuild factories there is a limit to which you can upgrade & extend the service life. And if cutting edge of your main strike force is a 20+ years old tank, it tells you about the lack of resources to get new technology.

(3) Al-Khalid - For all the hoopla around Al-Khalid, the production rate has been low; not even an armored regiment per year. Tells you that PA again lacks resources to replace older tanks with Al-Khalid. For a tank whose pilot batch was inducted in 2001, my estimate is that over 18 years, the number of Al-Khalid-1s produced stand at ~350 tanks.

(4) Al-Zarrar - Pakistan Army continues to modernize the legacy Chinese Type-59 tanks. And while Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) has done a commendable upgrade job, the fact that a Al-Zarrar forms the single largest tank type in Pakistan Armored Corps, tells you about the state of affairs.\

(5) Type-85IIAP - Pakistan Army's interim import from China which was modified as per its expectation. PA went the T-80UD and Al-Khalid route after this as it had sub-optimal performance.

- Pakistan continues to focus on upgrading older tanks. And using rebuild to to extend the life of its legacy platforms. There is no new induction of a technologically superior product. Trials of Chinese tanks and rumours of T-90 have not come to fructification. And it has to face a modern, upgraded and expanded Indian Army Armored Corps!

- Al-Khalid is a competent tank design and Al-Khalid-2 will build on it. But the issue is with production and not quality. It seems HIT has been facing production issues. And engine has been their Achilles heel. In an ideal scenario, it AK-1 would've replaced older tanks but it has not. And the fact that PA ran trials of Chinese tanks shows PA feels the need for a modern 'heavy' tank and that AK-1 by itself is not a complete solution. While PA tries to optimize its resources, the gap between Indian and Pakistan Armored Corps is increasing.

- To counter this gap and even the odds, Pakistan Army will continue to reply on its Heavy and Light Anti-Tank battalions. Also, my research shows that Pakistan Army has created new armored brigades - it is possible to do this by not retiring older tanks even as new ones enter service. Of course, Pakistan Armored Divisions and Independent Armored Brigades are smaller in size compared to Indian Army. Pakistan hopes that time & space factor, along with the fact that India does not have disproportionate disparity, will allow it to hold fort.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Oct 2019 16:51

Al Khalid IMO is a T-72 with a larger turret and lesser protection than the T-90.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Oct 2019 19:27

Karan M wrote:Al Khalid IMO is a T-72 with a larger turret and lesser protection than the T-90.

I think they've done a decent job of having hunter-killer sight and a basic integrated battlefield system (Rehbar). Plus, it has high HP-to-weight ratio which gives it good acceleration. For some reason, Pakistanis place a premium on this aspect. It is supposed to be an asset in desert terrain. May be for this reason, many of their Al-Khalid equipped Regiments are in (I) Armored Brigades under Karachi based V Corps (responsible for most of desert terrain south of Pano Aqil).

kit · Post by **kit** » 08 Oct 2019 19:34

https://www.janes.com/article/91749/pak ... in-2017-18

Pakistan's Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) revealed in its recently released yearbook for 2017-18 that the country ordered 52 9K129 Kornet-E anti-tank guided missile weapon systems and 295 FN-16 man-portable air-defence systems (MANPADSs) during that period.

The document stated that the deal for the Russian-made Kornet-E ATGWs, which is likely to have included hundreds of missiles, was valued at USD62.46 million, while the procurement of the Chinese-made third-generation MANPADSs was valued at USD25.13 million.

According to Jane's Infantry Weapons , the Kornet-E system comprises the 9M133-1 anti-tank and 9M133F-1 anti-structure missiles, the 9P163-1 GLS, along with the optional 1PN79-1 thermal sight.

The missile, which is armed with the 9N156-1 tandem-shaped charge warhead, has a stated maximum range of 5,500 m during the day and of 3,500 m at night. The warhead is claimed to be able to penetrate between 1,000 mm and 1,200 mm of vertically inclined rolled homogeneous armour (RHA) plates protected by explosive reactive armour (ERA).

The Chinese-made FN-16 is an upgrade on the FN-6 MANPADS that has been designed mainly for battlefield air defence to intercept low altitude and ultra-low altitude air targets. In particular, the FN-16 missile has an extended range of 6,000 m and the capability to pull an 18 g turn. If required, the FN-16 can also be integrated into an overall air defence system or a local air defence system.

Also purchased were 369 additional anti-tank rockets for the Pakistan Army for USD9 million to supplement the 1,430 rockets the army had ordered in 2016 to arm 158 Instalaza ALCOTAN-100 man-portable, shoulder-launched, lightweight anti-armour systems.

According to MoDP's latest yearbook, which was released in September, Pakistan also ordered 60 additional Chinese-made CM-400AKG air-launched anti-ship missiles for the air force for USD100 million.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 08 Oct 2019 23:23

so that is one more item russia is selling to pakistan after the mi35 helicopters ..does china not have a copy that they could sell to pakistanis or was chinese mal that bad?

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 09 Oct 2019 03:47

According to this AV, Pakis bought it from a third country.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Oct 2019 05:06

Alan Warnes (very Pak pasand journo) on Twitter on the number of issues that the Pakis found with the J-10A when it was first evaluated.

Twitter link

During a recent interview the Pak AF’s former VCAS and JF-17 CPD AVM (Retd) Shahid Latif said the PAF found up to 50 issues on the J-10A when it was evaluated (back in 2008/9?) I remember the CAS then ACM Tanvir telling me the PAF was going to buy 36. Of course it never happened.

mody · Post by **mody** » 11 Oct 2019 14:58

Rohit a few questions:
1). What is the APFSDS round used with the paki T80UD tanks? Is it the same as the Russian Mango round that we use? Do they buy it from Ukraine or China, or do they manufacture/assemble themselves?
2). For the AK tanks, they have been saying they have a DU round. Is this correct and any performance data for the same.

India should take up the FICV and Arjun MK1A and FMBT/Arjun MK2 projects on top priority.
For FICV I would love to see the numbers increased to 4,500 tracked and 1,500 Wheeled versions (all manufactured by the private sector), plus the upgrade of 2,500 BMP-2s (done by BEML/Avadhi Combine). Plus upgrade all the CI Ajeya T-72s with the 1,000 HP engine of the T90 tank, that we make completely inhouse now. We might be able to add some additional armour protection to these tanks as well. Upgrade the T90s, with all the tech developed for the Arjun program, wherever possible.

Order 348 Arjun MK1A (58x6 regiments) and take up the FMBT/Arjun MK2 project as a national priority. Max weight in the range of 54-58 tons, with a 3 man crew, turret based autoloader, 125/130 mm smooth bore L55 main gun and all the other bells and whistles. Projected requirement for 20 regiments.
All being domestic projects, would plough a lot of money in Indian MIC and help private sector and public sector companies.

PA would literally shit in their pants. Pakis would be forced spend, to counter this kind of upgrade in Indian fire power and mobility and would certainly bankrupt themselves.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 13 Oct 2019 00:58

Pakistan is buying 300 VT4 MBT's and as usual Chinese are giving the pokis the inferior - 'simplified export' version of its Type 99 which has downgraded capabilities of protection, sights, engine and gun as compared to the tanks in service in Chinese Army. In short Porkis will be getting a TFTA tank as befitting their status.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 13 Oct 2019 04:23

Forgot to add that the bhikari's were some months back making tall claims of being in talks with Russia to buy the most potent version of T-90 (T-90MS) tanks

John · Post by **John** » 13 Oct 2019 06:32

Vips wrote:Pakistan is buying 300 VT4 MBT's and as usual Chinese are giving the pokis the inferior - 'simplified export' version of its Type 99 which has downgraded capabilities of protection, sights, engine and gun as compared to the tanks in service in Chinese Army. In short Porkis will be getting a TFTA tank as befitting their status.

Because China is well aware Pakistan has history of turning around and supplying that tech to western intel or even Israel (thru Arab nations like SA).

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Oct 2019 12:46

But why are Pakis buying 300 tanks at this time when they can't afford expenses and tanks are pretty low down the chain. Must be planning an offensive next March. Hope our planners take note.

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 13 Oct 2019 15:43

Except for 65' and Kargil all conflicts between Oct to March.
Given that Kashmir issue has fallen flat for the TSP, FATF listing due, Middle east conflict with Turkish involvement, Turkey-Pakis-Malay troika challenging GCC/Saudi for Ummah leadership, Chin-US tussle, HK-Uighur troubles do all these portends another war/conflict between India and Pakistan
My feeling is the troika are up to some mischief and to add the Iranians, Taliban , Chini, Brexit-EU ongoing tussle into the mix will this ultimately lead to a battle of the ideologies or civilisations (however u want to put it)
If that happens are we ready for a long haul!!

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 13 Oct 2019 19:03

Aditya_V wrote:But why are Pakis buying 300 tanks at this time when they can't afford expenses and tanks are pretty low down the chain. Must be planning an offensive next March. Hope our planners take note.

This is just an agreement, they are going to assemble the tanks in Porkistan so will take minimum 12-18 Months. Apache, Helina, Namica and LCH are either ready or will be available by then to have good target practice.

williams · Post by **williams** » 13 Oct 2019 19:43

Rsatchi wrote:Except for 65' and Kargil all conflicts between Oct to March.
Given that Kashmir issue has fallen flat for the TSP, FATF listing due, Middle east conflict with Turkish involvement, Turkey-Pakis-Malay troika challenging GCC/Saudi for Ummah leadership, Chin-US tussle, HK-Uighur troubles do all these portends another war/conflict between India and Pakistan
My feeling is the troika are up to some mischief and to add the Iranians, Taliban , Chini, Brexit-EU ongoing tussle into the mix will this ultimately lead to a battle of the ideologies or civilisations (however u want to put it)
If that happens are we ready for a long haul!!

What mischief? Given the current economy, Pakis cannot sustain any direct military conflict for more than 48 hours. Turkey and Malaysia may make some noise but they are not foolish enough to directly confront India. I think Pakis don't know anything other than begging their way around and buying more weapons to get that false sense of security after their usual non-state action. This is not the 90s. We can crib about slow modernization processes and acquisitions. We do have a lot better capability today and we have a govt that will not hesitate to use it to the full capacity. Pakis will be finished if they start any mischief period.

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 13 Oct 2019 20:24

williams wrote:
Rsatchi wrote:Except for 65' and Kargil all conflicts between Oct to March.
Given that Kashmir issue has fallen flat for the TSP, FATF listing due, Middle east conflict with Turkish involvement, Turkey-Pakis-Malay troika challenging GCC/Saudi for Ummah leadership, Chin-US tussle, HK-Uighur troubles do all these portends another war/conflict between India and Pakistan
My feeling is the troika are up to some mischief and to add the Iranians, Taliban , Chini, Brexit-EU ongoing tussle into the mix will this ultimately lead to a battle of the ideologies or civilisations (however u want to put it)
If that happens are we ready for a long haul!!

What mischief? Given the current economy, Pakis cannot sustain any direct military conflict for more than 48 hours. Turkey and Malaysia may make some noise but they are not foolish enough to directly confront India. I think Pakis don't know anything other than begging their way around and buying more weapons to get that false sense of security after their usual non-state action. This is not the 90s. We can crib about slow modernization processes and acquisitions. We do have a lot better capability today and we have a govt that will not hesitate to use it to the full capacity. Pakis will be finished if they start any mischief period.[/quote
Williamsji
https://www.dawn.com/news/1510619/welco ... e-pm-imran
I don't think Turks or Malay attacking Inida but something is surely happening.
I would say another 2-3 months is the critical time in the Ummah politics
MBS is consolidating but facing backlash over the recent news of Yemen debacle.
Turdogan flexing muscle, Iran quietly confident and will never know if they kick us out of Chabhar and if Taliban return(they have made peace overtures to Iranians), there will be a unbroken landmass of peacefuls connecting Bosophorus/Middle-east to our doorstep. And into this u add Gazwa-e-Hind concept, that will be a heady cocktail dont u think!!

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 13 Oct 2019 21:13

Rsatchi wrote:
williams wrote:
Williamsji
https://www.dawn.com/news/1510619/welco ... e-pm-imran
I don't think Turks or Malay attacking Inida but something is surely happening.
I would say another 2-3 months is the critical time in the Ummah politics
MBS is consolidating but facing backlash over the recent news of Yemen debacle.
Turdogan flexing muscle, Iran quietly confident and will never know if they kick us out of Chabhar and if Taliban return(they have made peace overtures to Iranians), there will be a unbroken landmass of peacefuls connecting Bosophorus/Middle-east to our doorstep. And into this u add Gazwa-e-Hind concept, that will be a heady cocktail dont u think!!

Forget India, Uncle Sam will not allow unbroken landmass of peacefuls connecting Bosophorus/Middle-east to India. They will be left completely out of a very strategic location. Not going to happen.If any move is made towards it then expect a free Balochistan to emerge as a US protectorate and a permanent check mate against Iran, Pakistan and China(Gwadar).

CalvinH · Post by **CalvinH** » 14 Oct 2019 06:03

Rsatchi wrote: Turdogan flexing muscle, Iran quietly confident and will never know if they kick us out of Chabhar and if Taliban return(they have made peace overtures to Iranians), there will be a unbroken landmass of peacefuls connecting Bosophorus/Middle-east to our doorstep. And into this u add Gazwa-e-Hind concept, that will be a heady cocktail dont u think!!

That would make Pakistan the launchpad and it would damage them beyond recognition just as the Afghan war did . Only this time they would get no free money, just the bad guys. Heady cocktail it may be, but it would be good for India as India can handle it, but Pakistan wont be.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 21 Oct 2019 03:00

https://www.brownpundits.com/2015/02/27 ... d-hussain/
Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan and Sam Manekshaw (and a comment from Major Agha Amin)
A very interesting article, covers a lot of areas. Please comment.
Gautam

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Oct 2019 09:33

Very likely that the 5th gen fighter that the PAF will aim to bring into service will be derived from the FC-31 (aka J-31). They also aim to have a MALE UAV developed. Again, most likely a Chinese design that will be modified for some Paki requirements.

Given the state of their economy, the price point will be extremely important. Historically, the PAF hasn't operated twin engine fighters due to their higher acquisition cost and opex costs. But for a true 5th gen fighter, unless there is a humongous engine like the F-135, it is very difficult to meet the supercruise, internal weapons bay, internal fuel and shaping requirements with a single engine.

link

According to the Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production’s (MoDP) yearbook for 2017-2018, the Aviation Research, Innovation and Development (AvRID) Secretariat completed the first of four “conceptual design phase” cycles for the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) program.

The MoDP yearbook states:

“First cycle of conceptual design phase has been completed. The first configuration that was designed based on the challenging performance requirements of PAF will go through three more cycles within the conceptual design using higher fidelity analysis tools and codes.”[1]

The FGFA is the centerpiece of Project Azm, the PAF’s vision for developing a turnkey aviation industrial base within Pakistan to support the country’s defence as well as civilian and commercial aviation needs.

The PAF formally initiated Project Azm in July 2017 with the objective of developing an FGFA, a medium-altitude and long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), new munitions, and other projects.

When it announced Project Azm, the then Chief of Air Staff (CAS), Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Sohail Aman, had stated that the design work of the MALE UAV was in its “final stages.” The 2017-2018 MoDP yearbook stated that the scheduled deadline for the MALE UAV’s maiden flight was June 2019.

Since the MoDP yearbooks cover issues completed over 12-18 months prior to publication, it would mean that the MALE UAV either flew or was delayed, and that the FGFA is well into its subsequent design work.

In terms of the FGFA, in a recent interview with the PAF Chief of Air Staff (CAS), Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, stated that he does not expect the FGFA to become operational for “another decade.”[2]

The CAS had also revealed the current Air Staff Requirements (ASR) of the FGFA, i.e., a “twin-engine single-seater, boasting the likes of super-cruise and laser weapons (directed energy weapons).”[3] Thus, the FGFA is not only a clean-sheet design, but currently slated as a medium-to-heavyweight, high-performance jet.

This design configuration indicates that the PAF intends to produce a platform capable of heavier payloads and range than the JF-17. In other words, a platform optimized for offensive counter-air (OCA), maritime, and deep-strike platforms, i.e., a direct successor of both the F-16A/B Block-15s and the Mirage III/5…
..

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Nov 2019 19:53

https://www.janes.com/article/92328/chi ... a-frigates

Key Points

China has begun work on a third, and fourth Type 054A frigates on order for the Pakistan Navy
Once inducted, the vessels could significantly enhance the service’s anti-air warfare capabilities

China’s Hudong-Zhonghua Shipbuilding held a steel cutting ceremony for the Pakistan Navy’s third and fourth Type 054A frigates on 1 November, the service’s director-general for public relations announced via its social media channels on the same day.

A contract for the vessels, which was signed between China Shipbuilding Trading Co Ltd (CSTC) and Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production, was announced in June 2018. It is a follow-on order for two similar vessels, a contract for which is believed to have materialised in 2017.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 04 Nov 2019 20:02

i am interested in knowing how will these be funding these type 54a or do they come with CPEC investment?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Nov 2019 08:03

The entire Pak Military will soon become an extension of the Chinese Military.

So although the public face will be the average Pakistani citizen, the real face will be that of the Chinese onlee.

Of all the three services, the most visible (and public) transformation will be in the Pak Navy. Makes perfect sense for the PLAN to fund the PN, in exchange for full basing rights at Gwadar. Full access to the Arabian Sea. See first post on page 24 of this thread.

chola · Post by **chola** » 05 Nov 2019 08:07

ArjunPandit wrote:i am interested in knowing how will these be funding these type 54a or do they come with CPEC investment?

They made over 30 of those for the PLAN and more hulls as cutters for their Coast Guard. So probably pretty cheap because of economy of scale. With the trade war, Cheen is pressed for jobs not cash (since they basically print paper anyways.)

My guess is it is "friendship" financing with payment on laud away with whatever Pakiland can part with cotton, land, Christian brides, whatever.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 05 Nov 2019 19:52

Rakesh wrote:The entire Pak Military will soon become an extension of the Chinese Military.

So although the public face will be the average Pakistani citizen, the real face will be that of the Chinese onlee.

Of all the three services, the most visible (and public) transformation will be in the Pak Navy. Makes perfect sense for the PLAN to fund the PN, in exchange for full basing rights at Gwadar. Full access to the Arabian Sea. See first post on page 24 of this thread.

thanks rakesh g, i had read the post..I am still keen to know the funding part..as in through what pakis are paying is it real estate(Gwadar or even Gilgit baltistan) or some commodities (brides, cotton, donkeys, pigs) or all. That would provide some guage of political and economic bankruptcy of pakistan

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 06 Nov 2019 06:04

ArjunPandit wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The entire Pak Military will soon become an extension of the Chinese Military.

So although the public face will be the average Pakistani citizen, the real face will be that of the Chinese onlee.

Of all the three services, the most visible (and public) transformation will be in the Pak Navy. Makes perfect sense for the PLAN to fund the PN, in exchange for full basing rights at Gwadar. Full access to the Arabian Sea. See first post on page 24 of this thread.
thanks rakesh g, i had read the post..I am still keen to know the funding part..as in through what pakis are paying is it real estate(Gwadar or even Gilgit baltistan) or some commodities (brides, cotton, donkeys, pigs) or all. That would provide some guage of political and economic bankruptcy of pakistan

I think the reality is that there is no quid pro quo from Pak. Arming Pakistan is really in China's interests. Think about it - there is no other major military conflict in the world where China has leaned so heavily on one side. Also, Pak has nothing of value to offer Chinese anyway - there are no large resources or markets that it can offer.

China is arming Pakistan against India because it knows that fighting a two front war is much much harder than fighting a one front war. India did the same to Pak in 1971 and I've been saying for long on BRF that Pak will enter the next Indo-China war. That's exactly what China wants too because it will prevent India from deploying the full military strength against China. A credible threat on both sides of border will force India to always look inward. Now India is trying to adopt the same strategy by stitching up alliances with US and JP that will force China to worry about two fronts.

chola · Post by **chola** » 06 Nov 2019 11:04

Nikhil T wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote: thanks rakesh g, i had read the post..I am still keen to know the funding part..as in through what pakis are paying is it real estate(Gwadar or even Gilgit baltistan) or some commodities (brides, cotton, donkeys, pigs) or all. That would provide some guage of political and economic bankruptcy of pakistan
I think the reality is that there is no quid pro quo from Pak. Arming Pakistan is really in China's interests. Think about it - there is no other major military conflict in the world where China has leaned so heavily on one side. Also, Pak has nothing of value to offer Chinese anyway - there are no large resources or markets that it can offer.

China is arming Pakistan against India because it knows that fighting a two front war is much much harder than fighting a one front war. India did the same to Pak in 1971 and I've been saying for long on BRF that Pak will enter the next Indo-China war. That's exactly what China wants too because it will prevent India from deploying the full military strength against China. A credible threat on both sides of border will force India to always look inward. Now India is trying to adopt the same strategy by stitching up alliances with US and JP that will force China to worry about two fronts.

Cheen always had two fronts. We own overwhelming advantage in man and air power along our entire border with the chinis. If we had hit them at Doklam or any point before we would have overrun them because most of their forces are on their Eastern front.

Two fronts or not, we face two pretty weak military powers. Pakis are a failed state and Cheen is rice-eating race of traders and manufacturers who hadn't fought a real war in a half century.

They are no Germany or Japan.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 06 Nov 2019 12:28

Lol China and Pak are “pretty weak military powers”? Ok.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Nov 2019 12:45

The biggest mistake anyone in India can do is underestimate the enemy. No need to overestimate and freeze but never underestimate the enemy and term them weak.
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The biggest BS that we should have attacked at Doklam, admins this has been going long enough from a poster who is not really connected with this Country, when there was no need to fight a war that we should have attacked at Doklam- why? we were not prepared and there was no objective and finally we convinced the enemy of his stupidity.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Nov 2019 13:05

^^ Eerily similar talk to Pakis "strike a weak rice eating Bania Hindu at right places and he will crumble" which made them attack us in 65/71/99

Chola-ji, really cant imagine how either TSP ( is a damn decent military power even if failed state and mostly matches Desh 1:1 or 1:1.5 on most fronts due to military focus of that nation) or PRC can be termed "weak", esp when both are acting in concert ( with recent advances, I don't think Cheen is a pushover in the Eastern front too)

chola · Post by **chola** » 07 Nov 2019 08:01

^^^ I wrote about this many times, Sum ji.

At the time of Doklam we had 10 divisions and 250K men to their three brigades (around 7K each.) And the PLAAF had only 8 fighters on the plateau at the time. (Only 32 most recently.)

https://theprint.in/opinion/china-dokla ... -you/39851

BTW, I'll ignore gratuitous insult further up the thread from another about my right to be here

As if being 100% descended from Indian with lineage traced back generations around Tanjore seat of the Chola Rajas is not enough. Not angry but more disappointed than anything else as it comes from an oldie of the forum as I am.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Nov 2019 08:36

We had many issues at that time, we had no real preparation and no objective. Its stupid to provoke anything without preparation and definitive objective. Chinese started provoking from 2013 onwards as they had like Nehru's rule from 1948, the Indian regime in 2004-14 had similarly degraded Indian military capability that they could taunt, post Doklam they realized it was no longer the case. But in no way we had the capability for a decisive military action. There is no point going out of the way and poking the dragon.