VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 Nov 2019 00:07

Photo magic on an LSP. SPs have much better finishing. But are we in a beauty contest?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Nov 2019 00:11

chetak wrote:Shiny Rafale

You have heard of PS and other software that help "enhance" images right?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Nov 2019 07:53

Can we stop this and get back to Rafale discussion?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Nov 2019 03:33

Some of you might have seen this earlier, but I just watched this stunning aerobatics display again and enjoyed it a lot. One heck of an agile fighter, the Rafale and the display was planned out and done beautifully to demonstrate its agility.

Rafale flying display at Paris Air Show 2019

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Nov 2019 12:27

^^^

Would be interesting to see how it compares with Su-30MKI. Maybe one day we will get to read about it like the one about Mirage-2000 vs MiG-29 for a box of whiskey

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 07 Nov 2019 14:32

Not sure if this was posted before

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Nov 2019 03:44

Enjoy!

IAF Rafale RB001 and RB002

Twitter link

Indian Airforce pilots training started in Bordeaux Mérignac. This training is designed to familiarize Indian pilots with the #Rafale

As part of this 18-month training, which will come to an end in March 2021, pilots will perform 800 flights at an average rate of 3 flights/day

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 09 Nov 2019 05:38

Rafale RB003..with the IAF roundel placed differently than on RB001 and RB002..very strange.

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Nov 2019 08:38

Kartik wrote:Rafale RB003..with the IAF roundel placed differently than on RB001 and RB002..very strange.

Maybe some "unpaintable" sensors in that place ?

srai · Post by **srai** » 10 Nov 2019 10:38

^^^

Looks to be in a better visibility area from bottom.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Nov 2019 11:47

kit wrote:
Kartik wrote:Rafale RB003..with the IAF roundel placed differently than on RB001 and RB002..very strange.

Maybe some "unpaintable" sensors in that place ?

No that can’t be it. The likely reason may be that from RB-004 onwards it will be in front of the intake and not behind the canards where the roundel is a bit obscured.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 10 Nov 2019 12:00

^ The IAF roundel in new location is difficult to paint due to fuselage curvature.

The earlier location was standardized on all types, incl. Egypt / other builds.

This location has a new accessory, looks like an access door, pointing to an "India specific enhancement".

(Speculation: happy to be corrected and learn) - They may have moved roundel location as repeated servicing around this area may lead to premature paint wear.

"India specific Enhancement" may be access door for external M-88 starter, to enable jump starting at sub zero temperature.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 10 Nov 2019 21:37

^^ Just trialling roundrel placement options.

As much as the IAF roundrel is elegant like a Pagri (Turban), I would prefer they went for a low-rez option like Naval Tejas. PAF has already implemented low-rez roundrels on its aircraft

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Nov 2019 21:52

kit wrote:
Kartik wrote:Rafale RB003..with the IAF roundel placed differently than on RB001 and RB002..very strange.

Maybe some "unpaintable" sensors in that place ?

Those orange rectangles are reflector strips for night operations.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Nov 2019 23:13

Flying & fighting in the Dassault Rafale: Interview with a Rafale combat veteran
https://hushkit.net/2019/11/11/flying-f ... t-veteran/

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 12 Nov 2019 10:37

^Good I-view. Thanks for sharing.

Several interesting nuggets in there. Like the one about the snipers with 'IR shields' in northern iraq.

And like several other pilots, this pilot also mentions how small/light agile aircraft are extremely tough S-o-B's once in the visual regime.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Nov 2019 18:44

Yes indeed Manish. The one thing that came to mind on that point you made about small(er) combat aircraft - Tejas. The Mk1/Mk1A is even smaller than the F-16 and that Rafale M pilot found the F-16 challenging! IAF pilots, flying Su-30MKIs, have been training regularly against RSAF F-16 Block 50/52s and the results have always been favourable. One can just imagine in a WVR mock dogfight, a Tejas being flown by a battle hardened IAF pilot like Wing Cdr Varthaman for example, what his reaction would be. IAF pilot training is second to none.

However, he makes a valid remark from his point of view. If you land up in a WVR dogfight, you obviously have done something wrong. Not his exact words, I am paraphrasing. However, in the Indian scenario - as Balakot aptly proved - WVR dogfight still plays a big emphasis.

The other take away I get from this Hush Kit article, among the other ones from Hush Kit, is that the IAF has in its inventory some of the best combat aircraft out there on the planet. Reading the interviews of IAF pilots flying the Su-30MKI and Mirage 2000, one gets a clear impression of sound confidence in the machine and in their own capabilities. And now with upgraded Mirage 2000Is, MiG-29UPGs, the Super Sukhoi upgrade on the horizon, the Rafale induction and the soon to be arriving Tejas Mk1A...the IAF will be a serious airpower to reckon with. And if the Tejas Mk1 is better than a non-upgraded M2K, I can just imagine what a Mk1A would be. I am hoping that we order more than 83 of these birds.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Nov 2019 19:36

Rakesh wrote:The other take away I get from this Hush Kit article, among the other ones from Hush Kit, is that the IAF has in its inventory some of the best combat aircraft out there on the planet.

I would say it’s more of they know how to exploit each aircraft’s strength. An example would be using MiG-21’s vertical capabilities to beat the likes of MiG-29s.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 12 Nov 2019 19:55

Rakesh wrote:However, he makes a valid remark from his point of view. If you land up in a WVR dogfight, you obviously have done something wrong. Not his exact words, I am paraphrasing. However, in the Indian scenario - as Balakot aptly proved - WVR dogfight still plays a big emphasis.

I agree. And not just balakot (if short distance is what you are pointing at), but also things like jamming, hard maneuvering with counter measures, towed decoys, AWACS (neutralizing the stealthy approach advantage) etc and even things like rules of engagement (visual identification before engaging) will make sure that it will not be only BVR sniping for quite some more time.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 12 Nov 2019 20:08

Identifying, and mentally orienting to small aircraft in a large multi aircraft furball was one of the serious SA challenge identified during Vietnam war as well. Many a times they were forced into this because of inability to discriminate and classify targets at range. Advanced IFF, NCTR, and ACID were a direct result of those lessons learnt and feature prominently in investments even today. Throw in the need to coordinate tactics and strategies with different blue aircraft types and communicate effectively and this becomes even greater challenge. BFM capability and aircraft handling characteristics don’t even come into play if you cannot orient yourself faster than your opponent especially when multiple aircraft and aircraft types are involved. This was one of the driving forces for the spherical IRST capability on the F-35s EODAS allowing for detected targets to be handed over and put on constant track including constant blue and red force tracking and helmet projection. This is quite important when you have Fire and Forget missiles flying around..

https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/conf ... 4567.short

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Nov 2019 00:16

Manish_P wrote:^Good I-view. Thanks for sharing.

Several interesting nuggets in there. Like the one about the snipers with 'IR shields' in northern iraq.

And like several other pilots, this pilot also mentions how small/light agile aircraft are extremely tough S-o-B's once in the visual regime.

So basically the FAF depends on TFR to take on S-4XX class threats. Works only if significant attention is paid to the support elements like Pantsir and other SPAD protecting the S-4XX. Also, explaims IAFs choice of ISEs.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 13 Nov 2019 00:33

Flying at 200 ft. may provide some comfort if your aim is to avoid a long range SAM up your tailpipe. However, on the flip side, unless you have other cooperative, survivable assets in the vicinity, it also completely kills any SA you may have on the Integrated Air Defense posture of your enemy. Without that it is near impossible to discriminate emitters from non emitters or "real" emitters from emitting decoys, or guide weapons on targets for that matter. The Fancy Spectra antennas would themselves be blinded if the physical aircraft is itself flying that low to the ground. It works both ways..The S-400 crew would be extremely happy if it is able to force a major NATO air-force to operate its only tactical fast jet platform below 1000 ft. That means they've achieved a major objective (Air Superiority above 1000 ft over vast regions of their defended air space) and have greatly reduced the effectiveness of their adversaries in terms of both sensor envelope and reach and munition deployability, flexibility and performance. Of course, not having a stand-off Medium-Long range ARM also greatly reduces the flexibility the Armée de l'Air has to go after the target forcing them to choose different tactics. In an ideal world they could have deployed a stealthy ISR aircraft to locate emitters and discriminate targets and have low flying Rafale's sneak in and launch ARM's from beyond 100 km. But they don't have any of those platforms or weapons..So in effect their options include lobbing a bunch of cruise missiles with the hope that they have accurately geolocated the threat systems (and discriminated them) in advance and that all the enemy's efforts to deny them this targeting have failed) and that those systems do not move or aren't that well defended to defeat a limited number of advanced cruise missiles. The other option is to launch stand-in munitions like the AASM by penetrating really low and then popping up to give the weapons slightly more range.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 13 Nov 2019 08:11

Came across some information on SPECTRA EW system of Rafale:

This is from 2015 article:
https://jocdigital.uberflip.com/i/58988 ... -warfare/3

SPECTRA
Protection of the Rafale is entrusted to the SPECTRA (Self-Protection Equipment to Counter Threats for Rafale Aircraft), an integrated defensive aids suite that has been developed by Thales in partnership with MBDA. SPECTRA works across the electromagnetic, laser and infrared domains, employing smart data fusion from multi-spectral sensors to provide identification, location, jamming and decoying against a wide range of threats.

SPECTRA is built on a system of receivers and countermeasures. RF (radio frequency) detectors employ sophisticated techniques such as interferometry for high-precision direction-of-arrival and passive ranging, and digital frequency memory for signal coherence. The system also employs accurate laser warning detectors with direction-finding capability, and a passive infrared missile warning system. Data from all three sensor suites are fused and processed by a central computer, which prioritises and activates the relevant countermeasures, based upon comparison between the received signals and an onboard threat library.

RF jamming is transmitted through active- phased array antennas. Employment of this advanced technology allows the jamming signal to be concentrated in the sector where it is needed, not only increasing its effectiveness, but also reducing the probability of intercept by the adversary’s own sensors. In addition to RF jammers, the SPECTRA system incorporates mechanical countermeasures for the dispensing of chaff and decoys that are effective in either electromagnetic or infrared domains.

In addition to protecting the Rafale, SPECTRA also has a valuable offensive function. Fused data from the sensors provides threat tracks in the weapon system, which can be displayed in the cockpit. These tracks can be used for targeting in the defence suppression role.

Additionally, the data product from the SPECTRA sensors is of very high quality, so that the system can be used for the gathering of Elint (electronic intelligence). Pop-up threats can be compared against the threat library, which can be updated with new information. The product of SPECTRA
is also recorded and can be downloaded upon the aircraft’s return to base for more detailed analysis in the ground-based support centre. In this way master threat libraries can be updated, and revised data files produced for subsequent missions.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 14 Nov 2019 09:32

SC will be giving their verdict on the Rafale review petition filed by Arun Shourie & Co. Ajay Shoookla was on TimesNow brazenly claiming that if the verdict doesn't go as he expects, the SC's 'credibility' is at stake

. Some arrogance.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Nov 2019 11:23

Sc demises Review Petition, if I was Pappu after making the kind of allegations I would have hanged myself but then National security and INC are Poles apart.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Nov 2019 14:28

Can we expect another 36 or will it be 114?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Nov 2019 14:39

I hope more LCA contracts are signed before any futher imports

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 14 Nov 2019 15:07

Am expecting another 36 at the very minimum now that case has been cleared and first Rafale has been handed over.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Nov 2019 18:00

Karthik S wrote:Am expecting another 36 at the very minimum now that case has been cleared and first Rafale has been handed over.

Cain Marko wrote:Can we expect another 36 or will it be 114?

Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhaduria has stated on record, that there will be no follow-on order of 36 Rafales. The IAF is focused only on the 114 MRFA purchase, again as per the Air Chief himself. The only thing this verdict has done is strengthened Dassault's position among the seven OEMs participating in the MRFA contest. Dassault will likely offer a F4 variant. The contest will go ahead, the only thing that remains is whether the money available for this purchase will move at the same pace.

Now our service chiefs say one thing and then soon after the MoD will chime in and say the opposite. A very good example of that would be ---> there is no budgetary constraints for 57 carrier borne fighters and a 65,000 ton aircraft carrier (as per then CNS Admiral Sunil Lamba) and a few months later, the MoD promptly shot down that idea citing budgetary constraints! Now the current CNS - Admiral Karambir Singh - has said they are hoping that the MoD approves the purchase.

Welcome to the murky world of the Indian defence market. If it was not the billions involved in each deal, not a single phoren OEM would want to deal with India. The procurement system is a bureaucratic MESS!

saip · Post by **saip** » 14 Nov 2019 21:16

Judgement on Rafale deal from the SC came out?

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 14 Nov 2019 21:20

^ I think you mean the procurement system is a Military-Bureaucratic mess. There are many recent examples where Service Chiefs have taken a 180 degree u-turn (eg HTT 40) and others where officers have acute brochuritis not bound by realism.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Nov 2019 21:40

It does not matter what anyone on this forum wants for the IAF. The service will do exactly what it wants, subject to the budget. That is the only consideration for them. If money is available, the IAF will get 114 MRFA. If the IAF wants more then 83 Tejas Mk1A...then that is exactly what will happen. The sad part is that budget issues crop up more with local products than with phoren products.

From ACM Raha Sir to ACM Dhanoa Sir to now ACM Bhaduria Sir, there is a gradual and measurable appreciation for local products. However even ACM Bhaduria Sir has said that the 114 MRFA contest is going to go ahead. The only people who can throw a spanner in the works is the MoD. The economy is in a downward spiral and there appears to be no money for 114 MRFA. Otherwise some other program will suffer budgetary constraints in order to get 114 MRFA.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Nov 2019 21:52

saip wrote:Judgement on Rafale deal from the SC came out?

Yes Sir and in favour of the Govt. Shock & Awe in the Congress Party right now

Ajai Shukla said that the SC’s credibility will be at stake if the judges come out with a decision favouring the Govt. Check out his twitter feed. The other thing trending on twitter regarding this verdict is ——> Orange is the new Black. I am sure you understand what that means.

Shameful is an understatement to describe these guys! Just to be clear, I am referring to the guys against the deal and not the SC or the Govt.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 15 Nov 2019 05:35

Does anyone here subscribes to Janes ? Could they please highlight all important points in this article for us here.

See partial article below:

France lays out Rafale upgrade path to 2070

France has laid out the upgrade path it intends to rollout for the Dassualt Rafale to keep the multirole combat aircraft in air force and naval service through to about 2070, a senior service official said on 13 November.

Speaking at the IQPC International Fighter conference in Berlin, Major General Frederic Parisot, Deputy Chief of Staff, Plans and Programmes, French Air Force (Armée de l’Air: AdlA), said that there will likely be a further four upgrade phases for the platform beyond the latest F3R configuration currently being rolled out, and that it is the country’s plan for the Rafale to serve as the force-multiplier alongside the New Generation Fighter (NFG) currently being developed with Germany and Spain as part of the wider Future Combat Air System (FCAS)/Système de Combat Aérien Futur (SCAF).

The Rafale’s current F3R configuration features major software and hardware upgrades that include the integration of the MBDA Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) and the latest laser-guided version of the Sagem Armement Air-Sol Modulaire (AASM) modular air-to-ground precision weapon; the Thales RBE2 active electronic scanned array (AESA) radar; the Thales TALIOS long-range airborne targeting pod; and automatic ground collision avoidance system (Auto-GCAS); an improved buddy-buddy refuelling pod; as well as the Spectra electronic warfare system.

The F4 standard plans to operate between 2023 and 2030, and it adds enhancements to the Thales RBE2 active electronic scanned array (AESA) radar, the TALIOS pod, and the Reco NG reconnaissance pod; upgrades to the aircraft’s communications suite; improved pilot helmet-mounted displays; a new engine control unit; and the ability to carry new weaponry such as the Mica Next-Generation (NG) air-to-air missile and 1,000 kg AASM. Further to the software and hardware improvements, the F4 upgrade will include a satellite antenna, as well as a new prognosis and diagnostic aid system designed to introduce predictive maintenance capabilities.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Nov 2019 10:12

Rakesh wrote:[
Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhaduria has stated on record, that there will be no follow-on order of 36 Rafales. The IAF is focused only on the 114 MRFA purchase, again as per the Air Chief himself. The only thing this verdict has done is strengthened Dassault's position among the seven OEMs participating in the MRFA contest. Dassault will likely offer a F4 variant. The contest will go ahead, the only thing that remains is whether the money available for this purchase will move at the same pace.!

Sure sure. And then modi sir will come along and order 36 as urgent interim measure. MRCA 3.0 will promptly convene thereafter for 96 fighters MII style.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 15 Nov 2019 10:54

MRFA or any other name, point is additional Rafales are coming along with Tejas. There hasn't been significant addition to fighters fleet apart from contracted MKIs 2 decades ago. Only major multi billion dollar purchases for IAF have been C 17 and C 130j.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Nov 2019 19:09

@ Cain Marko: Please do not do black magic on the process

I want this tamasha to end. Either cancel the deal altogether or move ahead with more of the same (Rafale). That is assuming the IAF is still pushing ahead with 114 MRFA contest. 2021 will mark 20 years since the first RFI for transferring the Mirage 2000 line to India. Twenty long years to decide on a fighter aircraft. This is like the AJT episode!

@ Karthik S: I agree with your assessment. Additional Rafales are likely coming under Modi 2.0

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 15 Nov 2019 21:02

Karthik S wrote:MRFA or any other name, point is additional Rafales are coming along with Tejas. There hasn't been significant addition to fighters fleet apart from contracted MKIs 2 decades ago. Only major multi billion dollar purchases for IAF have been C 17 and C 130j.

You sure about that? Two decades ago we had only contracted 140 + 50 MKIs; we have contracted 82 more MKIs since in piecemeal fashion. We’ve also spent billions in upgrading Mirages, MiG 29s, and Bisons. We’ve added refuellers, AWACS, and IACCS that allow for better airspace control with fewer jets in the air. All that is significant investment in IAF.

Let’s not ignore all that to say that we need multi-billion dollar level investment in IAF to buy Rafales because IAF has been starved of money all this time. There’s simply no money in the bank to buy Rafales or 114 jet tamasha.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Nov 2019 23:06

Nikhil, valid point wrt to investment. However investing in "upgrading" fighters is not the same as inducting a whole new type. There is investment in infrastructure to support the new type, investment in a new set of weapons to support the new type, investment in pilot and airmen training on the new type, etc. Infrastructure takes the big chunk of the investment cost here, which upgraded MiG-29s and Mirage 2000s do not have to do. They slot right back into the airbase which has all the infrastructure set up. Also for crew trained on the legacy MiG-29 and Mirage 2000...again the investment is minimal when operating the upgraded type.

With the Rafale induction, the whole set of investment has to be repeated - base infrastructure (special shelters are being built to house two squadrons worth at each air base - Ambala and Hasimara), new weapons (Meteor, SCALP, etc) and training of crew - pilots and airmen. One can see the progress of the construction on Google Maps at both airbases.

The last new type that was inducted was the Tejas Mk1 when No 45 Flying Daggers Squadron was raised on 01 July 2016. Prior to this induction, was the Su-30MKI when No 20 Lightnings Squadron was raised on 27 September 2002. That is almost two decades back. So Karthik S is right ---> there has not been any addition to the *FIGHTER* fleet since the Su-30MKI. Today, the IAF has just one squadron of the Tejas Mk1 and has more than 12+ squadrons of the Su-30MKI.

There needs to be more inductions of Netra AEW&C aircraft (one is pathetic), more refuellers, complete MAFI (Modernization of Airfield Infrastructure) programs at all airbases, increase orders of Astra Mk1s, increase the number Tejas Mk1As (83 is too little)....the list goes on. The most important cost (and often overlooked on BRF) is human resources. There needs to be a greater intake of pilots into the air force. No point in inducting any of the above, if your pilot shortage is acute.

To quote Saab's marketing line ---> a fighter is only effective when she in air. So 114 Rafales or 114 Tejas Mk1As is pointless, if you do not have pilots to fly them. And the IAF suffers from a severe pilot shortage. Statistically, if memory serves me correct, there is less than one pilot to every plane. The PAF has the opposite - they have more than 2 pilots on average to a combat plane. I do not know about the PLAAF, but if you ask them...they will tell you it is fabulous!

The situation in the IAF is acute because of the lucrative growth of the civil aviation market. Challenging to match the pay and the perks that the civil aviation industry offers.

So while one can argue on the merits (or disadvantages) of inducting 114 phoren fighters, however the above issues are equally important and also need to be addressed. A fighter aircraft - phoren or desi - is only good as the support platforms that assist it. So trained pilots, trained ground personnel, increasing serviceability of present types (across the board, a 75% serviceability must be the goal), weapons stocks for a minimum of 10 days of intense air combat, AEW&C aircraft, refullers, modern airbases with hardened shelters and SAMs, etc are all important for an effective air campaign.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 16 Nov 2019 00:18

Admiral, the pilot issue will be countered with inducting women in combat role.
I'd have love to see one of the first woman combat pilot joining the Tejas Sq.