Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 09 Nov 2019 01:25

PN commissions 3000 ton survey ship PeNiS Behr Masah

The Pakistan Navy (PN) has commissioned a new 3,000-ton survey ship named PNS Behr Masah .

The 80.8 m-long vessel, which was built in China by Jiangsu Dajin Heavy Industry, entered service in a ceremony held on 4 November at the Karachi Naval Dockyard, which was also attended by Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi.

The contract for the construction of Behr Masah , which is now the largest survey vessel operated by the PN, was signed in mid-2017, with the ship being launched in December 2018.

The vessel, which is reportedly capable of operating at sea for 50 days, has been equipped with “state-of-the-art equipment” and is capable of undertaking “hydrographic, oceanographic and geographical surveys as well as seafloor mapping from shallow to ocean depths”, said the PN in a statement published on its Facebook page the same day.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 16 Nov 2019 21:13

https://twitter.com/clary_co/status/1195350929228386304

A few excerpts that caught my eye from a recent conference report on the Pulwama/Balakot crisis from CSSPR at the University of Lahore
https://csspr.uol.edu.pk/wp-content/upl ... -Conf1.pdf

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Nov 2019 03:22

kit · Post by **kit** » 22 Nov 2019 07:41

https://www.janes.com/article/92736/jy- ... n-pakistan

Key Points
Jane's has identified a JY-27A CVLO radar in imagery captured of Mianwali Air Base in Pakistan
A modern VHF-band system, China's JY-27A was not previously known to have been exported to Pakistan
Satellite imagery captured on 29 August has revealed a China Electronics Technology Group Corporation (CETC) JY-27A counter-very-low-observable (CVLO) radar at Mianwali Air Base (AB) in Pakistan. Imagery examination indicates the radar arrived between 5 June and 29 August and was not yet fully erected as of 2 September.

The sale of the JY-27A to Pakistan has gone unnoticed in the open press, with most air-defence-related reporting concerned with Pakistan's desire to import advanced Chinese surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems.

kit · Post by **kit** » 23 Nov 2019 00:08

https://www.311institute.com/chinas-cla ... r-systems/

China showed off two anti-stealth radars at Zhuhai. The first, the JY-27A 3-D long range surveillance and guidance radar, is a Very High Frequency (VHF) radar that is the Chinese military’s first active phased array radar. VHF radars, with their longer wavelengths, are more likely to detect stealth aircraft and it’s been known that China has been working on them for some time now.

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2019/1 ... lth-radar/

LAHORE: Weeks after India received its first of the 36 Rafale fighter jets from France, open-source satellite imagery revealed the presence of a high-tech radar system – the China Electronics Technology Group Corporation’s (CETC) JY-27A – at the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) M. M. Alam airbase in Mianwali.

According to CETC, the JY-27A radar has the ability to detect low-observable (LO) or ‘stealth’ aircraft, including the French Dassault Rafale jets, at long-range. While its range is not yet revealed, military observers pegged its capability at roughly 500 km (310 miles).

In addition, the JY-27A is resistant to jamming and also provides situational awareness of incoming ballistic missiles.

Jane’s reported that imagery examination indicates the radar arrived between Jun 5 and Aug 29 and was not yet fully erected as of Sept 2.

nam · Post by **nam** » 23 Nov 2019 00:28

So VHF radar to detect IAF stealth fighters, which may ingress low and through mountain passes... Good Luck Pak.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 23 Nov 2019 14:42

I think Cheen wants a peek at Khan assets across the Durand line.Considering the ass whoopery the Fizzleya has been subjected to, this is could be a good add to bolster the Radar coverage on that side.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 23 Nov 2019 16:48

Will it provide adequate warning against that Brahmos screaming “Danny boy” on the way in?

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 23 Nov 2019 17:17

hnair wrote:Will it provide adequate warning against that Brahmos screaming “Danny boy” on the way in?

Predators are always on prowl

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 23 Nov 2019 19:39

Kartik wrote:PN commissions 3000 ton survey ship PeNiS Behr Masah

The Pakistan Navy (PN) has commissioned a new 3,000-ton survey ship named PNS Behr Masah .

The 80.8 m-long vessel, which was built in China by Jiangsu Dajin Heavy Industry, entered service in a ceremony held on 4 November at the Karachi Naval Dockyard, which was also attended by Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi.

The contract for the construction of Behr Masah , which is now the largest survey vessel operated by the PN, was signed in mid-2017, with the ship being launched in December 2018.

The vessel, which is reportedly capable of operating at sea for 50 days, has been equipped with “state-of-the-art equipment” and is capable of undertaking “hydrographic, oceanographic and geographical surveys as well as seafloor mapping from shallow to ocean depths”, said the PN in a statement published on its Facebook page the same day.

What will this ship survey? The best escape route from indian navy's onslaught?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Nov 2019 11:44

What the...onlee.

48 drones are cannon fodder in contested airspace. More likely meant for peacetime genocide of baloch and pakhtoons on the cheap, as versus flying JF17s and F16s at high cost/flight hour.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economic ... 129500.cms

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 25 Nov 2019 12:04

Baloch and Pashtun freedom fighters will have to be careful now, about venturing out when these are around. One never knows when these fall on their heads. Bad glue is China's number one weapon export.

btw "sherdil" in malayalam means vomit

samsher · Post by **samsher** » 04 Dec 2019 03:03

Interesting series of videos on PakJab Army chiefs. This one is Part 1 (of 4 parts) on Musharraf.
Parts 3 and 4 are quite interesting with details about Kargil and the 1999 Coup.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 22 Dec 2019 21:03

China overhauls Pak firepower, to supply 236 howitzer guns

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Pakistan Army inked a deal with China Northern Industries Corporation (NORINCO) this year to procure artillery guns, the SH-15 Howitzer. Pakistan wants to procure 236 of these artillery guns with transfer-of-technology (ToT) clauses and plans to place them along the LoC.

"It could be nuclear-capable," said a source.

NORINCO has also inked a deal with Pakistan''s premier defence manufacturing unit, the Heavy Industries Taxila in overhauling the main battle tank Type 85-IIAP, which is an improvement over Type 80 MBT line.
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TushS · Post by **TushS** » 22 Dec 2019 23:11

VinodTK wrote:
"It could be nuclear-capable," said a source

I am looking forward for news from Pakhasthan that they have acquired some semi automatic guns from abbu which can fire "nuclear capable" bullets upto a range of 500m.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 23 Dec 2019 00:58

TushS wrote:
VinodTK wrote:
"It could be nuclear-capable," said a source

I am looking forward for news from Pakhasthan that they have acquired some semi automatic guns from abbu which can fire "nuclear capable" bullets upto a range of 500m.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 23 Dec 2019 01:00

Vips wrote:
Kartik wrote:PN commissions 3000 ton survey ship PeNiS Behr Masah

What will this ship survey? The best escape route from indian navy's onslaught?

Hydrographic surveys are useful to ge information that can be used for preparing submarine routes, lay or dodge mines and even do ASW ops

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 23 Dec 2019 04:30

It is doing bidding for Chinese

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Dec 2019 05:43

Expect close cooperation and exercises with Qatar that'll reveal the Rafale's capabilities to the PAF.

JF-17 participates in flypast as part of Qatar's National Day celebrations

chola · Post by **chola** » 26 Dec 2019 19:35

It looks like the Pakis are starting to roll out the JF-17B two-seater in numbers with multiple airframes in primer.

From the twitter handle: https://mobile.twitter.com/falamb3

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Dec 2019 19:48

Will it complete a loop, poor location of refueling probe, has a rather small nose width for Radar . And the additional pilot weight and space will reduce fuel capacity and range.

It is never a F15 or a Su 30, so 2nd pilot will eat into aerodynamic performance weapons load and range.

I think Pakis should do lots of screwdrivergiri of these Chinese planes

chola · Post by **chola** » 26 Dec 2019 20:10

^^^ And they will. The pakis have 100+ now Blunders and will probably end up with another 150+ when all is said and done.

From what I read, the JF-17B is not configured as a trainer but a strike platform. Training role is secondary. Might not need to complete a loop. lol

It is basically a MiG-21 point defense fighter with a few more options for A2G and (supposedly) BVR. But Pakiland doesn't have much strategic depth anyways so having a mass of semi-modern but cheap platforms that can takeoff quickly and fire a few mijjiles before high-tailing back to base might be all they need for filler behind the F-Solah.

nam · Post by **nam** » 26 Dec 2019 21:13

Despite it's shortcoming, the issue we face , there will 250 BVR capable jets for which we have to take counter measures.

They may not be able to shoot down IAF jets, but will keep them busy. Fundamentally what the Soviets did with the Luftwaffe. And this is what happened on Feb27. IAF was kept busy.

We need overmatch in BVR and ECM to allow us counter numbers. And LCA in numbers. We may have better tech, BUT we need numbers in BVR carriers. We cannot send 4 Su30 or Rafale or M2000 for every 5 JF17 we face.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 26 Dec 2019 21:23

We can send the LCAs that will be more than sufficient for JF-17s, but man all we have grand plans to make x number of planes 2 -5 years down the line, but never making any in the current year. Come next year and the same line holds true - e have grand plans to make x number of planes 2 -5 years down the line, but never making any in the current year.
Maybe not being very smart, we are reading too much into aircraft shortage in IAF, maybe there is none, and all of this is gimmick to buy more rafale. All else is simply Maya.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 26 Dec 2019 23:34

Funnily enough the Bandars aren't even good enough to replace 50+ year old Mirages with Fizzleya,Nishan e Barber.
They just replaced F7 models(later models inducted in early 2000s).
Numbers are good but they do have Cheen running a parallel line with cheap Prison Labourers.IIRC the workshare is 54% Paki,rest is Uyghurs in forced labour.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 27 Dec 2019 20:14

Cheen is running a parallel line to grab the export market. They exported to Myanmar and are now targeting Nigeria and Malaysia.

chola · Post by **chola** » 28 Dec 2019 18:47

Pakis going gaga over first released photos of JF-17 Block 3. They are imagining all kinds of cool chit on it.

But it looks just like Block 2. Which in turn looks just like Block 1.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 28 Dec 2019 20:12

nam wrote:Despite it's shortcoming, the issue we face , there will 250 BVR capable jets for which we have to take counter measures.

They may not be able to shoot down IAF jets, but will keep them busy. Fundamentally what the Soviets did with the Luftwaffe. And this is what happened on Feb27. IAF was kept busy.

We need overmatch in BVR and ECM to allow us counter numbers. And LCA in numbers. We may have better tech, BUT we need numbers in BVR carriers. We cannot send 4 Su30 or Rafale or M2000 for every 5 JF17 we face.

True, quantity has its own quality. IAF would have to give due attention to the number of BVR capable jets in the air in any given threat scenario. Accordingly it'll have to allocate AD assets and early warning systems.

Since cheen and pak are both employing similar swarm strategies, I wonder what are the best ways to counter it and give us the edge. Since it might not be a savvy strategy to expend our silver bullets in countering their cheap maal in the air.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 Dec 2019 20:50

there is nothing swarm about it... they are also making up for the dwindling numbers....the platforms being inducted are inferior to their F16's. If a few JF's get shot by silver bullets in the opening round, u may well find them doing CAP over Durand line rather than on LOC/IB.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 29 Dec 2019 00:51

Block 3 comes with a wide FOV HUD, (might) LAD. Not too shabby. Chinese avionics is going through paces and Paxtan is profiting from it. Still, sensor fusion and other software processesing capabilities are a gray area but I'd expect it to not be less than the Russians.

nam · Post by **nam** » 29 Dec 2019 02:42

Nihat wrote:
True, quantity has its own quality. IAF would have to give due attention to the number of BVR capable jets in the air in any given threat scenario. Accordingly it'll have to allocate AD assets and early warning systems.

Since cheen and pak are both employing similar swarm strategies, I wonder what are the best ways to counter it and give us the edge. Since it might not be a savvy strategy to expend our silver bullets in countering their cheap maal in the air.

We need to double down on BVR tech and most importantly ECM/SP suite on our jets. If we can negate PAF BVR's using ECM, they can shoot as many BVR they want.

It is now time to understand that we are not fighting PAF. We are fighting PLAAF with a facade of PAF riding with Chinese tech. Once Meteor & SFDR starts coming in, Chinese will hand over PL15 & Ramjet versions to PAF.

Need to double down on SFDR. Create very long ranged version of it, if required. Improve our avionics to counter numbers. We cannot depend on Russia anymore, as Chinese with their money bags are catching up in radar & other sensors.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 29 Dec 2019 03:42

nam wrote:
We need to double down on BVR tech and most importantly ECM/SP suite on our jets. If we can negate PAF BVR's using ECM, they can shoot as many BVR they want.

Its time we took a place in the ECM leadership ladder.

nam wrote: It is now time to understand that we are not fighting PAF. We are fighting PLAAF with a facade of PAF riding with Chinese tech. Once Meteor & SFDR starts coming in, Chinese will hand over PL15 & Ramjet versions to PAF.

Need to double down on SFDR. Create very long ranged version of it, if required. Improve our avionics to counter numbers. We cannot depend on Russia anymore, as Chinese with their money bags are catching up in radar & other sensors.

But before we loose our chit... Chinese will hand over nothing without putting their hand on their pound of flesh.They did sell 3 (more advanced Block 2+) Bandars to Nigeria for $184 mil, we dont know all the details. The tech mentioned is not cheap. The aim of Bandar was to be cheap, but with fancy mancy large screens,HUD, sensor fusion blah blah, cheap can be thrown out of the window. So pls look at all this as marketing for new orders.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Dec 2019 04:00

yeah the JF-17 Block 3 just flew it seems. Externally very similar to Block 2 but with a host of avionics improvements, most important being the new AESA radar, which it seems to me, hasn't yet been fitted, given that there was no proper radome. New HMDS and LDP hardpoint as well, so we'll see better utilization of the hardpoints, but that is just catching up with what the LCA Mk1 already has. HUD, MAWS seem to be from the J-20 and J-10C programs. What we're witnessing is the porting over of technologies and products developed for J-10C and J-20 programs onto the JF-17.

This Block 3 may bring in PL-15 BVRAAM capability, which is a significant threat for any AEW&C, tanker or EW jet that may be loitering around 150 km from the border.

Meanwhile, our MOD hasn't even signed the contract for the Tejas Mk1A, which means that a AESA radar equipped JF-17 Block 3 will most likely enter service before the Mk1A does.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Dec 2019 05:40

Maybe our political leadership and MOD thinks airpower is escallatory and better to have a small import dependent Airforce. There are hurdles no doubt but the system definitely prefers imports.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Dec 2019 10:11

The Pakis may have been plodding on with their modest fighter, but what have our great boffins of the ADA and HAL been doing in comparison with Tejas? At least the Pakis have over 100+ bomb trucks from which they can with incremental upgrades launch PGMs and more sophisticated AAMs.You cannt discount numbers, they have a quality of their own. In trying to turn the LCA into a " pocket M2K", the IAF, ADA,etc. lost the plot. It should've as intended, primarily been a straightforward MIG-21 replacement, oriented towards air combat primarily, like our little Gnat was earlier- Sabre- slayers, F-16 slayers. It's now overburdened with eqpt., has an underpowered engine and a paltry production rate even for the vanilla version which until the hammering down of its unit price recently was almost that of an MKI!

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 29 Dec 2019 10:22

Philip wrote:At least the Pakis have over 100+ sitting ducks

FTFY.

nam · Post by **nam** » 29 Dec 2019 16:20

Will the Chinese give the latest to Pak, is a moot point. We would still have to face it against PLAAF.

Until JF started coming in, IAF jets could go in to merge and knock off F7 and Mirages out of the sky. Now with 100+ BVR capable fighters, we have to watch our flanks and our backs..

I assumed Doklam and after that Balakot would have put in a element of urgency around countering BVR, pushing through LCA orders.

The only thing IAF seems to be interested in is Rafale and MMRCA 2.

We need to invest in overmatch tech.

chola · Post by **chola** » 29 Dec 2019 18:45

^^^ Cheen itself had been scared stiff by what BVR could do to its Flanker-based backbone. It was a lecture at a chini mil-tech university that spilled the beans on the 2015 exercise with Thailand where the Gripen annihilated the J-11A in BVR contests. They are focusing on this weakness rather than the strengths of the J-11 in WVR over the Gripen.

The JF-17 has the same size and thus RCS advantage as the Gripen (and Tejas) over a Flanker -- roughly 1/6th the RCS. With radar sets being roughly equal, the smaller fighter will be able to detect and fire its BVRAAM far earlier and put the larger one on the defensive. They don't have to hit to degrade air superiority.

Our back-bone are the 230 plus SU-30MKIs. We are like the PLAAF in this regards. In fact, the J-11A at the Thai exercise is armed with R-77 and R-73 like our MKI. Once in range, the superior kinetics of the Flanker made short work of the Gripens at the exercise. But how would it close?

That is the danger of cheap and small BVR-capable systems. Like the MKIs at Balakot, we would be forced to dodge and weave instead of annihilating the strike package.

mahadevbhu · Post by **mahadevbhu** » 29 Dec 2019 21:38

Corollary - we MUST get the UTTAM and Meteor for the LCA then. MBDA has accepted to integrate the METEOR with the Indian Radar and thus we must grab the opportunity.

nam · Post by **nam** » 29 Dec 2019 23:12

chola wrote: The JF-17 has the same size and thus RCS advantage as the Gripen (and Tejas) over a Flanker -- roughly 1/6th the RCS. With radar sets being roughly equal, the smaller fighter will be able to detect and fire its BVRAAM far earlier and put the larger one on the defensive. They don't have to hit to degrade air superiority.

Detection of JF17 should not be a problem. If not Su30, the AWACS will monitor the package. Even if it fires off a BVR, if it is within Su30 radar envelope, I am pretty sure, it would detect the BVR coming it's way. Feb 27 proved we have the capability to dodge Aim120. ECM or otherwise, we have tactics to dodge Su30.

The issue is JF17 firing off BVR itself and our need to dodge it. We need BVR and tactics which will outrange JF17's BVR, at range of heights. May be ability to datalink BVR with AWACS to let it cue it towards target.

Integrate our SAM's with our AWACS to fundamentally blind side PAF jets. SAM's popping up where there are no known ground radar's will be difficult nut to crack for PAF.

On Feb 27, IAF jet were ordered not to cross LC.. but there is no such rules for a SAM. We didn't even manage to deploy Barak8 on LC..