MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Kartik
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Kartik »

From AW&ST

Russia Pushes MiG-35 To African Nations

Aerospace Daily & Defense Report Oct 23, 2019
Tony Osborne

Russia’s RAC MiG says it is marketing the export version of its MiG-35 fighter aircraft to African countries.

The export version of the aircraft, first unveiled at the MAKS Airshow in Moscow, is being displayed to African leaders at the Russia-Africa Economic Forum being held in Sochi, on Russia’s Black Sea coast, Oct. 23-25, the company said in a press release.

The new variant features adjustments in the airframe including newly designed vertical stabilizers, an active electronically scanned array radar, an infrared search and track system, and a modular open architecture, which the company says will enable speedier integration of weaponry.

The company also notes that the aircraft has increased corrosion protection and is designed for operations from austere airfields.


Ilya Tarasenko, director general of RAC MiG, said the company has had a relationship with African countries for more than 50 years, with some 2,000 MiG-built aircraft flown by African air forces.

“During these years more than 2,000 MiG aircraft of second, third and fourth generation have been supplied to the national air forces of countries of this region,” Tarasenko said. “All of the aircraft had the experience of combat employment during local military conflicts in the territory of the region.”

The MiG-35 is an advanced development of the company’s MiG-29, a type that has been sold in only small numbers in Africa, most notably to Algeria, Chad, Egypt, Eritrea and Sudan.

RAC MiG has so far received only a small order for six MiG-35s from the Russian Air Force to support testing and evaluation. It is unclear whether more orders are in the pipeline.


Rosoboronexport, the Russian arms export agency, says African nations are responsible for about $14 billion in orders.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Manish_Sharma »

https://www.fighterpilotpodcast.com/epi ... 9-fulcrum/

Kartik Air Marshal Harish Masand ji in this 1 hour long interview on PODCAST praises Mig 29 highly but dissed THRUST VECTOR intensely in last 15 minutes of interview. He says and I paraphrase "no point in lugging 1 ton of weight while you never need to use it , even if you do during dogfight you will lose so much energy that time wasted in recovery will have you at disadvantage..."

How come then we chose thrust vectoring on MKI , BUT CHINESE CHOSE MKK WITHOUT HAVING THRUST VECTORING?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Cain Marko »

Manish_Sharma wrote:https://www.fighterpilotpodcast.com/epi ... 9-fulcrum/
How come then we chose thrust vectoring on MKI , BUT CHINESE CHOSE MKK WITHOUT HAVING THRUST VECTORING?
Just a guess...It's probly the weight of the tvc nozzles...500kg is not such a big deal for an mki that compensates with massive engine thrust. But for a smaller bird like the fulcrum it imposes a severe penalty

Btw the mki with tvc is almost untouchable bar perhaps the Su35 on which tvc is refined and retained. Ditto with the pakfa.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Manish_Sharma »

^ Thanks yes this seems like a good explanation for 38 ton mki a 1 ton isn't much issue but for 23 ton mug 29 1 ton would be big deal.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Manish_P »

What about the question raised by you - 'the MKI having them but not the MKK'.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by nachiket »

The Chinese looked at the MKK as a long range strike fighter while in our case the MKI is our primary air-superiority fighter with a secondary strike role. The Chinese already have plenty of Su-27's and J-11's for the air-superiority role.

Also look at Karan's response to AM Masand's comments in the IAF thread here: viewtopic.php?p=2389557#p2389557
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Manish_P »

Thanks. Got it. Missed the post by KaranM some how..
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

X-Post from the Kaveri thread. Thank you to Prem Kumar for providing the link.

Debunking Some False Arguments about the LCA Tejas
https://medium.com/@BernardWoolley/debu ... 6be98f5487
29 May 2017
The Chinese did not seek out the latest and greatest toy because their initial designs (Q-5, JH-7, J-8, J-10) failed to match up to what the US, Japan, and India fielded. If the J-10B and J-20 are flying today, it is only because the PLAAF and PLAN flew inferior aircraft for decades while their industrial capabilities matured. As it is, the Tejas program’s achievements have been quite impressive: the country has developed a fourth-generation fighter that is as good as the Gripen-C from scratch. It uses more home-grown technology than the Gripen does; including such critical subsystems like the digital flight control system, the composite airframe, a large portion of the avionics, etc. Many of these have been applied to the IAF’s legacy aircraft as upgrade packages. To throw it all away because of a handful of challenges here and there or because Lockheed or Boeing are offering to transfer their manufacturing lines to India would be incredibly, utterly stupid. If the Tejas is cancelled, we will have a repeat of the same thirty-year saga the next time India tries to build her own fighter.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Karan M »

What a brilliant article. It might rub some folks the wrong way, to the point they quibble on minor details, but the basic thrust of the article is rock solid and amazing. Great job, Mr Woolley (whoever you are).
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Philip »

With the second tranche of 80+ Mk-1As supposedly a certainty, the only argument for the extra imported 114 birds is that the production rate of Tejas cannot replace the hundreds of retiring MIGs. So why not set up extra Tejas manufacturing line/s with the pvt. sector, who are being sought out by the foreign OEMs, in parallel with the HAL lines? A huge amount of money saved, ADA/HAL get royalties instead of a firang entity, and with the increased production rate the supply chain for components, etc. is strengthened too with larger orders leading to reduced costs.Later on the Mk-2 could similarly be farmed out to the pvt. sector lines.

If need be, a few extra sqds. of MKIs, Rafales, MIG-29s- we're reportedly buying 21 new mothballed ones from Russia upgraded to 29UPG std. too, would add to numbers filling in gaps of retiring aircraft. Both options would obviate the need for yet another type adding to the IAF's exotic " zoo " in the sky.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Cain Marko »

Karan M wrote:What a brilliant article. It might rub some folks the wrong way, to the point they quibble on minor details, but the basic thrust of the article is rock solid and amazing. Great job, Mr Woolley (whoever you are).
Bernard Woolley is the principal private secretary to the right honorable Jim hacker :wink: :D
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Karan M »

I doubt that gentleman would track Indian aviation with the same level of interest. :wink:
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by LakshmanPST »

Philip ji...
I guess they'll setup additional line for Tejas by the time IAF orders Tejas SPORT... I read somewhere that IAF will order around 40 jets (2 squadrons) of SPORT version... Maybe they'll order more...
-
I think MMRCA is dependent more on budgetary constraints rather than production rates...
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Philip »

Just a naive Q.During the Cold War we had little choice, the best of Sov. eqpt. but at friendship prices with v.little available from the west barring modest Jags.The M2K was a breakthrough meant to counter Paki F-16s and for good measure MIG-29s were also bought.

What if the GOI told the IAF that only Tejas or firang fighters no more costly than the agreed price of Tejas recently agreed upon with HAL were available for replacing the MIG-21/27sqds. being retired? Or that only extras of existing types in service again with strict budgetary parameters also an option? I guess the MMRCA 2.0 would then evaporate.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Kartik »

Philip wrote:Just a naive Q.During the Cold War we had little choice, the best of Sov. eqpt. but at friendship prices with v.little available from the west barring modest Jags.The M2K was a breakthrough meant to counter Paki F-16s and for good measure MIG-29s were also bought.

What if the GOI told the IAF that only Tejas or firang fighters no more costly than the agreed price of Tejas recently agreed upon with HAL were available for replacing the MIG-21/27sqds. being retired? Or that only extras of existing types in service again with strict budgetary parameters also an option? I guess the MMRCA 2.0 would then evaporate.
We had choices, but we got friendship prices only from the Soviets. Else how did the Gnat, Hunter, Canberra, Ouragan, Mystere, etc. come into IAF service well before the Jaguar?

Even the Jaguars were bought in competition with the Mirage F1 and Viggen, although the Viggen was restricted in a way due to its US sourced engine. So it's not like there were no other options available.

the point of MMRCA was not just to shore up numbers but also to get a single private aerospace company to become HAL's competitor and break the PSU monopoly. At least that was the intent and as long as that remains, the MMRCA competition will be alive.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Kartik »

Why I'm posting this is the dollar figure that was mentioned at the end of it by the LM exec. Now, this is for F-21 (I really don't like this moniker..might as well have just called it F-16 IN or whatever). The twin engine jets traditionally are more expensive, so if Rafale wins the MMRCA deal, we could see a cost of ~$20 billion. Can't see where that much money will come from, even though I do understand that it is paid out over years as contractual milestones are met. the IAF's procurement budget will be really stretched thin with such a costly deal. And it has to manage Tejas MK2/MWF and Tejas Mk1A contract payments at the same time.

Sales of the F-16 Block 70 will surpass 100 if the Taiwan deal for 66 F-16V fighters goes through.

LM sees big demand for F-16 in Middle East
Lockheed Martin believes its backlog of orders for the F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft could more than triple based on demand from Middle Eastern and Asian countries.

The company currently has a backlog of 30 F-16s, but anticipates orders for additional aircraft could increase its sales by at least another 60 examples, says Kenneth Possenriede, executive vice-president and chief financial officer of Lockheed Martin on the firm’s third quarter earnings call on 22 October.

“In our plan, we see countries like Morocco and other countries out in the Far East that in aggregate could grow our backlog by another 60 aircraft,” he says. “We see a great future for F-16.”

Lockheed Martin is currently building one F-16 per month at its Greenville, South Carolina facility, which this year started producing the fighter after production was moved from Fort Worth, Texas. The company just recently started building Bahrain’s first F-16 Block 70 aircraft, which is scheduled to be delivered before the end of 2021. The Middle Eastern country ordered 16 examples for $1.12 billion in 2018.

The Greenville facility will also handle production of 14 examples of the F-16 Block 70 for Slovakia. The US government is also negotiating Bulgaria's planned acquisition of F-16 Block 70 aircraft. And, in March 2019 the US State Department approved the possible sale of 25 new production F-16 Block 72 aircraft and F-16V upgrades for Morocco.

Besides countries that have already disclosed interest in the F-16, Possenriede did not explain where the additional orders would come from. Should more orders be signed Lockheed Martin anticipates increasing its production pace from one aircraft per month to up to three per month. The Greenville facility has capacity to produce up to four aircraft per month, the company says.

Possenriede nodded to Taipei’s interest in the F-16 and the US State Department’s approval of the possible sale, but did not name Taiwan as a prospective buyer. The deal is contested by China which views selling arms or helping Taiwan as challenging its claim that the self-ruled democratic country should be controlled by Beijing.

“There’s discussion about another country in the Far East that could want as much as 66 [examples of the F-16], and we will see where that goes,” Possenriede says of Taiwan’s interest.

Moreover, Lockheed Martin sees a big opportunity to sell the F-21 variant of the F-16 to India.

“We are going to build that aircraft in India if we win that programme,” says Possenriede. “That programme would be worth $10 [billion] to $15 billion.”
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by SaiK »

Rafale should reduce RCS by half. It could be more on the rear rather than frontal. However, on all sides, they have huge promise, but at huge price. Rafale is darn expensive.. we have got to think hard on homegrown platforms.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Kartik »

Saab flies its new Arexis jamming pod on board a Gripen twin seater

Image

Saab's new electronic attack jammer pod in the air
06 November 2019

Saab carried out the first flight tests with its new advanced Electronic Attack Jammer Pod (EAJP) with successful results on 4 November 2019. The pod’s interfaces with the aircraft’s hardware and software as well as cockpit control and monitoring were tested during the flight.

The purpose of Saab’s new EAJP pod is to protect aircraft against radars by sophisticated jamming functions, thereby blocking the opponent’s ability to attack them. The first flight marks an important step of the pod’s development programme.

Saab is sharpening its electronic attack capabilities and the new advanced pod is an important element of this development. The EAJP is a strong complement to the built-in electronic attack capabilities of the highly advanced on-board electronic warfare system on Saab’s new Gripen E/F fighter. It can also be used on other aircraft types. The pod forms part of Saab’s Arexis family of electronic warfare systems.

“We performed the flight tests with a Gripen fighter and this new pod is an important part of the development of our new electronic attack capability”, says Anders Carp, Senior Vice President and Head of Saab’s business area Surveillance.
..
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Kartik »

More details on the EAJP pod that has been developed as part of the Arexis family of EW equipment.

Ultra-wide band,
DRFM,
L-band and S-band AESA GaN transmitters,
Weight<350 kg

This would be very useful for future Balakot type scenarios, where the strike jet package includes one jet carrying the Escort Jammer pod to blind and confuse PAF AWACS and fighter radars. This is still a prototype but when it enters production, it will be worth looking into as an off-the-shelf Escort Jammer pod for the Tejas Mk1A and MWF.

Saab begins escort jammer flight testing
Saab has begun flight testing of a low-band Electronic Attack Jammer Pod (EAJP) developed as part of the company's Arexis family of fast-jet electronic-warfare (EW) equipment.

A Swedish Air Force two-seat Gripen D aircraft made a first test flight with the EAJP pod on 4 November. Saab said the pod's interfaces with the aircraft's hardware and software, as well as cockpit control and monitoring, were tested during the flight "with successful results".

Announced by Saab's EW business unit in 2017, the Arexis line leverages from technology building blocks already in development for the Multi Functional System (MFS)-EW self-protection suite equipping the new Saab JAS 39 Gripen E fighter. These building blocks include ultra-wideband digital receivers and digital radio frequency memory devices, gallium nitride (GaN) solid-state active electronically scanned array (AESA) transmitters, interferometric direction-finding systems, and high-speed digital signal-processing architectures.

The EAJP escort jamming pod is intended to provide strike packages with an airborne electronic attack capability to defeat early warning radars. The baseline design incorporates L-band and S-band GaN-based AESA antennas in the fore and aft sections of the main pod structure, with large very high frequency (VHF) and ultra-high frequency (UHF) fin antennas mounted externally. Weighing less than 350 kg, this version has been specifically designed for integration with single-engine fighters such as the Gripen E.


Saab took the decision in 2017 to self-invest in the build of a prototype system, with the assembly and integration of the demonstrator pod completed at the company's Järfälla site near Stockholm at the start of 2019. "We had the system into [anechoic] chamber testing less than 18 months after starting development," Jonas Grönberg, Saab's head of marketing, sales, and emerging products for Fighter EW, told Jane's earlier this year. "This is a pre-production model, covering the L- and S-bands, designed for a limited number of flight hours and a limited flight envelope.

..
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by brar_w »

Stand in or Escort jamming using a small SEF with some fairly small sized pods is going to get increasingly difficult in dense IADS scenarios where non VLO aircraft are going to be constantly battling between maintaining altitude or sensor reach. If you require a tactical escort jammer to maintain altitude in order to do what it has to do then it needs a decent stand off range to protect itself and do what it has to do..This is the challenge and why using MIL drones or stand in jammers is appealing when mixed with stand-off jammers that can add distance between them and their targeted SAM systems. For a mix of 4-4.5 gen. aircraft may well be stand in deployable jammers, and highly capable self-defensive suites. Leave the heavy jamming to platforms that can generate the type of power to do the mission reliably and effectively or else risk these platforms being shot down exposing the entire strike package to higher risk. SAAB has created a G and flight envelope limited pod for some very basic demonstrations and yet, despite it being a much publicized project for more than 2.5 years neither Sweden nor Brazil has taken it up. I think there is a fundamental disconnect between the way SAAB envisions it to be deployed and between what the end user thinks is a sound employment strategy for EW/EA.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1196796986415968256 ---> Importing a frontline fighter today is a far worse proposition than importing one in, say, the 1980s. At least then you could still claim some capability accretion, despite being dependent on spares support. In the digital age, you would simply be importing *vulnerability*.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Sumeet »

Kartik wrote:More details on the EAJP pod that has been developed as part of the Arexis family of EW equipment.

Ultra-wide band,
DRFM,
L-band and S-band AESA GaN transmitters,
Weight<350 kg

This would be very useful for future Balakot type scenarios, where the strike jet package includes one jet carrying the Escort Jammer pod to blind and confuse PAF AWACS and fighter radars. This is still a prototype but when it enters production, it will be worth looking into as an off-the-shelf Escort Jammer pod for the Tejas Mk1A and MWF.

Saab begins escort jammer flight testing
Saab has begun flight testing of a low-band Electronic Attack Jammer Pod (EAJP) developed as part of the company's Arexis family of fast-jet electronic-warfare (EW) equipment.

A Swedish Air Force two-seat Gripen D aircraft made a first test flight with the EAJP pod on 4 November. Saab said the pod's interfaces with the aircraft's hardware and software, as well as cockpit control and monitoring, were tested during the flight "with successful results".

Announced by Saab's EW business unit in 2017, the Arexis line leverages from technology building blocks already in development for the Multi Functional System (MFS)-EW self-protection suite equipping the new Saab JAS 39 Gripen E fighter. These building blocks include ultra-wideband digital receivers and digital radio frequency memory devices, gallium nitride (GaN) solid-state active electronically scanned array (AESA) transmitters, interferometric direction-finding systems, and high-speed digital signal-processing architectures.

The EAJP escort jamming pod is intended to provide strike packages with an airborne electronic attack capability to defeat early warning radars. The baseline design incorporates L-band and S-band GaN-based AESA antennas in the fore and aft sections of the main pod structure, with large very high frequency (VHF) and ultra-high frequency (UHF) fin antennas mounted externally. Weighing less than 350 kg, this version has been specifically designed for integration with single-engine fighters such as the Gripen E.


Saab took the decision in 2017 to self-invest in the build of a prototype system, with the assembly and integration of the demonstrator pod completed at the company's Järfälla site near Stockholm at the start of 2019. "We had the system into [anechoic] chamber testing less than 18 months after starting development," Jonas Grönberg, Saab's head of marketing, sales, and emerging products for Fighter EW, told Jane's earlier this year. "This is a pre-production model, covering the L- and S-bands, designed for a limited number of flight hours and a limited flight envelope.

..


Karthik,

SAAB offered all that for LCA 2 years ago but I think we didn't take it up. From their own website:

Saab Offers World Class Sensor Package for Indian Tejas LCA
15 February 2017

Defence and security company Saab offers a fighter sensor package for the Indian Tejas LCA Mk1A fighter aircraft. The package consist of a state-of-the-art Saab AESA fighter radar closely integrated with a compact electronic warfare suite using Gallium Nitride based AESA technology.

Saab, in partnership with Indian industry, offers a solution that will bring the required Airborne Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Fighter radar and Electronic warfare capability to India and the Indian Air Force. Thanks to our extensive technology development Saab can offer the latest technology, on time for the LCA Mk 1A needs, at low risk.

The AESA fighter radar is developed by Saab with antenna technology based on the latest technologies using Gallium Nitride (GaN) and Silicone Carbide (SiC) substrates in combination with the latest generation of exciter/receiver and processor technology, giving optimum installed performance in a dense signal environment.

The radar has a complete mode suite which includes air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea capabilities. A built-in memory provides a tool to record a large amount of data from performed flights. Integration in the LCA Mk1A fighter aircraft is enabled by the limited space, power and cooling required.

The EW suite consists of sensors and transmitters developed by Saab and is a highly capable and extremely compact solution that provides essential situational awareness and self-protection. The heart of the suite is an alectronic warfare receiver which is connected to a front end receiver and fin tip antennas inside the aircraft. Included is also an external AESA jammer pod.

The radar warning system is based on ultra-wideband digital receivers and has very high probability of intercept, very good sensitivity and very high selectivity for handling the complex signal environment of today.

The AESA jammer pod is small in size, low on weight and drag. Self-protection is based on Wideband Digital RF Memory (DRFM) that provides advanced jamming techniques and arbitrary combination of jamming waveforms. Transmission is performed by using GaN-based AESA:s. The EW suite also includes ground support systems and recording capability for advanced mission planning and post flight analysis.


Saab’s solutions are based on the latest state-of-the-art technologies and COTS (commercial-off-the-shelf) available. The AESA fighter radar and electronic warfare units have no ITAR-restricted (Internationally Traffic in Arms Regulations) components, due to the high degree of Saab in-house developed and manufactured building blocks. Using contemporary technology provides the adaptability and growth potential needed to stay ahead. Technologies are re-used between variants and platforms in order to minimize Life Cycle Cost (LCC).


“In our partnership, the transfer of technology will secure an indigenous Indian capability for series production, maintenance, repair and overhaul capability. Testing and development of the fighter sensor package will have synergies with the systems developed for Gripen,” says Anders Carp, head of Saab business area Surveillance.

Saab has a proven background in tailoring systems to customer needs. This brings extensive experience from having open relations with customers when adapting advanced systems to new platforms.

“Saab is a world leading company in the sensor area and has equipped some 4500 fighter aircraft with radar and electronic warfare systems. This has given us wide experience of successful sensor system integration, testing, and evaluation of radar and EW systems on fighter aircraft,” says Anders Carp.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by mahadevbhu »

Why can't the JSF be entered into the mmrca competition? Why is it not already entered in it.?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... f-35-24724

Tldr: expensive, ties up.IAF and USAF much more.
But look at the clear Dynamics that it transmits across the Himalayan mountains to China.

The Rafale is 4.5. JSF is a gigantic step forward and it will put the IAF ahead as well as serving as a template for the AMCA.
The mirage 2000 inspired the LCA in a similar fashion and the JSF will.the AMCA
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by brar_w »

mahadevbhu wrote:Why can't the JSF be entered into the mmrca competition? Why is it not already entered in it.?
There has been no Commercial sales campaign for the JSF till date. It is believed that this is not really allowed by the GOTUS at this point. LM, after viewing the various requests on the MMRCA 2.0, viewed the F-16 as a more competitive offering as an overall package. Also, the S-400 deal rules out the F-35 for the near-medium term so it would be problematic for Lockheed Martin to pursue that. From a US perspective, the new Japanese order, and the Polish announcement basically assure high FRP production rates into the next 5-8 years so they are no rush to push for additional foreign sales..
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by mahadevbhu »

From the US perspective, it probably wants India to be more into an anti-China alliance with the US. This is best done via the F35. So it makes more sense both ways - India gets the fifth generation equivalent of the F16 which is ready today and serves as a template for the AMCA just as mirage 2000 served for the LCA.
The TEDBF is going to be inspired by the Rafale.
AMCA from F35.
We need them all. There is one problem though... American arms come with gigantic riders on usage and we ain't the Pakis. We will probably follow the agreements to the letter.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by vishvak »

How will we follow the agreement during wartime without alarm s going off.

Better add a giant spring (connected to legs) at the back of MiG 29 for landing ops and buy more of the same, with additional pods/batteries for Electronic W/D.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by mahadevbhu »

That doesn't work. Indian scientists need to take a close look at the jsf to develop the AMCA.
Korea made the KA 50 after making the F16 so many years. It makes sense to me to get the jsf to feed into the AMCA.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Indranil »

I don't know what makes you feel that the Indians or anybody who is developing a 5th gen aircraft now hasn't looked at the F35 design very very carefully.

I would like to know how did operating F16s help the Koreans to design and develop of KA50 and how operating JSF will feed into the development of AMCA?

This is like saying one can learn to build a Yamaha by riding a Kawasaki?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by mahadevbhu »

Sir the devil lies in the details afaik. And the details that one gets by possessing and maintaining one is different from externally looking at it.

Someone was mentioning that he had interacted with American firms recently who were offering all manner of help . This sentiment needs to be capitalized on and I am sure the boffins of Bangalore are doing so. But still cross border collaboration needs to be increased - nothing else will raise the scientific level in a country as much as increased coprojects etc. The US spends 900 billion a year on defense. I am sure that they get something out of it and it makes sense to tap into it. They'll make exceptions for us in monitoring the same at the moment with a republican govt.
nachiket
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by nachiket »

The F-35 is not on offer and brar has explained why pretty well. Nothing to be gained by discussing that khayali pulao any further.
SaiK
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by SaiK »

Indranil wrote:..This is like saying one can learn to build a Yamaha by riding a Kawasaki?
China has all the answers for you! of course, in the chinese ways. :D it works differently, and for them it is a gold mine imitation game! I'd say, 70% initiatives, they have succeeded. In the niche areas, they are struggling, but they are on it. If you are complacent, they will walk over you like one bhander-strike.

The more logical discussion would be to be, how do we want to mature our programs?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by mahadevbhu »

No more khyali pulao from my side..but I would hope to see the JSF in Indian colors apart from the AMCA
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by darshhan »

mahadevbhu wrote:No more khyali pulao from my side..but I would hope to see the JSF in Indian colors apart from the AMCA
10-12 nos F-35 will not do much harm to us financially. Should cost around USD 2-3 billion. Will definitely enable IAF, ADA, HAL etc to have a look at the stealth technology and advanced avionics package in terms of technology. Inputs from JSF can then be used as reference while developing AMCA. Additionally it will give IAF an opportunity to develop tactics wrt stealth fighters.

This is one foreign import that I have no objection to provided it is inducted in limited nos.(< 1 squadron) and if US agrees to such a sale.

Remember Chinese will do anything in order to lay their hands on F-35 including spending huge amounts of money. Such is the competitiveness when it comes to defence and aerospace technologies.
Last edited by darshhan on 21 Nov 2019 13:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by darshhan »

Indranil wrote:I don't know what makes you feel that the Indians or anybody who is developing a 5th gen aircraft now hasn't looked at the F35 design very very carefully.

I would like to know how did operating F16s help the Koreans to design and develop of KA50 and how operating JSF will feed into the development of AMCA?

This is like saying one can learn to build a Yamaha by riding a Kawasaki?

Indranil, Not disagreeing with what you said but surely you must be aware of how much espionage is done between rival automobile companies. Or for that matter rival companies in any sphere. From design features to marketing campaigns, stealing ideas and concepts is extremely pervasive. I will add it is even necessary to maintain your cutting edge.

I for one will not be able to build a yamaha by riding a kawasaki. But a Yamaha engineer will definitely be able to tweak and improve his own product by studying kawasaki.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by darshhan »

darshhan wrote:
mahadevbhu wrote:No more khyali pulao from my side..but I would hope to see the JSF in Indian colors apart from the AMCA
10-12 nos F-35 will not do much harm to us financially. Should cost around USD 2-3 billion. Will definitely enable IAF, ADA, HAL etc to have a look at the stealth technology and advanced avionics package in terms of technology. Inputs from JSF can then be used as reference while developing AMCA. Additionally it will give IAF an opportunity to develop tactics wrt stealth fighters.

This is one foreign import that I have no objection to provided it is inducted in limited nos.(< 1 squadron) and if US agrees to such a sale.

Remember Chinese will do anything in order to lay their hands on F-35 including spending huge amounts of money. Such is the competitiveness when it comes to defence and aerospace technologies.
Another advantage of a limited induction of JSF will be that IAF can test their counter stealth tactics and technolgies against F-35.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Aditya_V »

And the US will sell India 10-12 J-35. Highly unlikely in the next decade.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by brar_w »

Yeah that is not on the cards or likely to happen.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Arrogance of Sweden

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/saa ... ssion=true


Saab wants control if it wins $15 billion India Jet-fighter deal
05 Dec 2019 Bloomberg

Saab AB wants control of local manufacturing in India if it beats the likes of Boeing Co. and Lockheed Martin Corp in the race for the world’s biggest warplane contract

Saab AB wants control of local manufacturing in India if it beats the likes of Boeing Co. and Lockheed Martin Corp. in the race for the world’s biggest warplane contract.

The Swedish manufacturer is in the running to supply 114 Gripen fighters in a deal valued at more than $15 billion as Prime Minister Narendra Modi seeks to modernize armed forces reliant on mostly Soviet-era equipment in the face of threats from China and Pakistan. At the same time, Saab faces a requirement that at least 85% of the planes be built locally in partnership with Indian firms.

“If a company needs to take responsibility for quality, time, cost and capability that’s required by the Indian customer, I want to have some sort of control of that," Saab Chief Executive Officer Micael Johansson said in an interview in New Delhi. It’s also important that Saab be able to export India-built Gripens to fulfill global demand, he said.

Saab has teamed up with Indian billionaire Gautam Adani on its bid, while Boeing has pitched its F/A-18 in partnership with state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and MahindraDefence Systems Ltd. Lockheed has offered the F-21, specifically designed for the Indian bid and a close relation of the F-16, with conglomerate Tata Group, while the Eurofighter Typhoon and France’s Dassault Aviation SA Rafale are also in the mix.

“We just need to find a mechanism and the sort of balance between investing and having some sort of control, and not to be liable for things that we cannot control in the Indian market," said Johansson, who was took over as CEO in October and was in India as part of a Swedish royal delegation.

India allows up to 49% of foreign direct investment in defense, though it could be possible to hold more with government approval and if the venture provides “access to modern technology." The final details of the latest bid documents haven’t been published.


“Normally we would say if we have a majority in a company, we have some sort of a reasonable control," Johansson said. “I don’t have a number between 51 and 100 today."

Saab, which sealed a deal for 36 Gripen jets from Brazil in 2013, is in the running for 64 fighters from Finland, as well as a Canadian tender for 88 jets, where Eurofighter and Dassault have pulled out. It’s also looking at Croatia’s reopened pitch to replace outdated Mikoyan MiG-21s, and an order in Colombia. The company’s shares rose 1.4% Wednesday and are little changed this year.

Under the Indian tender, the winner needs to deliver the first jet within three years of securing the contract. The country scrapped a long-awaited order with Dassault for 126 Rafales worth $11 billion in 2015, but has since bought 36 of the planes to speed replacement of older aircraft.


Saab is looking at Indian partners in addition to Adani as it prepares to fight for the deal, Johansson said in the interview Tuesday. Tieups will be looked at on all levels, from the main company making the jets to suppliers, but Saab wants to control the entire system, he said.

This story has been published from a wire agency feed without modifications to the text. Only the headline has been changed.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by tsarkar »

Manish_Sharma wrote:Arrogance of Sweden
https://www.livemint.com/news/india/saa ... ssion=true
“If a company needs to take responsibility for quality, time, cost and capability that’s required by the Indian customer, I want to have some sort of control of that," Saab Chief Executive Officer Micael Johansson said in an interview in New Delhi.
The aim of this RFP is to bring in modern manufacturing, supply chain, QC and support practices in Indian Industry. Because of lack of these factors, even great designs like Su-30MKI and Dhruv are not translating to a good user experience in the field.

GoI wants Indian partners to remain prime to ensure ToT actually happens.

OEMs want to remain prime to ensure management control in delivering outcomes to GoI. This point is also reasonable in its own way. The earlier Rafale manufacturing fell through on this point and the present RFP is not moving ahead because of this point.

It will be incredibly difficult for GoI to reconcile both points.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Vips »

The Swedish are trying to punch way above their weight and are living in la la land if they think Gripen can beat Eurofighter and Typhoon in winning the MMRCA bid. Also, why would India buy the Gripen from the hypocritical Swedish when its Mk2 Tejas will be more then a match to it in the next 5-7 years?
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