Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 09 Jan 2020 16:47

Depends on how far we have come on manik engine.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 09 Jan 2020 16:56

The lack of Nirbhay tests is indeed worrying. Given that it succeeded after a string of failures, I'd think that they'd re-test to have a string of successes to improve confidence level. Even without Manik, we need confidence that all the other sub-systems are working, guidance is working, min-range/max-range testing etc.

I hope they aren't keeping this as a TD, while shooting for a higher range (2000 Km) follow-on. We heard murmurs to that effect after the last test. Surest way to kill the project.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Jan 2020 21:51

What is there to worry?
The basic concept has been proven.
The development program had a limited number of engines and those were consumed.
Now awaiting the Manik engine and then tests.
But knowing the system the Manik engine will be tested maniacally and be ready in 2030.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 09 Jan 2020 22:18

The way things are going the Brahmos long range version of 800 KMS may arrive before Nirbhay (if it arrives at all).

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 10 Jan 2020 03:17

At the time of the last test in April'19, it was stated that the next test will be after an year.

viewtopic.php?p=2347479#p2347479

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Jan 2020 03:58

I know that they are working on a version which is a slightly smaller and optimized. I had reported when I saw tenders on the same.

nam · Post by **nam** » 10 Jan 2020 04:03

Nirbhay is not a concern. A2G specially long range glide bombs, longer range bvr is much higher priority. And of course mrsam, xrsam.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Jan 2020 04:18

Pratyush wrote:https://youtu.be/WMKGNKfrpmQ

Print is reporting that domestic ABM is ready for deployment. Govt sanction required.

Been ready for a while now with several steps undertaken.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Jan 2020 08:38

It is the Phase-I of the BMD, the endo atmospheric interception, that is ready for deployment. In fact two years back, there was a Russian news report that it was already deployed in Rajasthan.

lakshmanM · Post by **lakshmanM** » 10 Jan 2020 09:25

SSridhar wrote:It is the Phase-I of the BMD, the endo atmospheric interception, that is ready for deployment. In fact two years back, there was a Russian news report that it was already deployed in Rajasthan.

Radar units were deployed. -
Induction of MFCR/ LRTR: IAF as the lead service for providing BMD protection of Delhi NCR has inducted one Multi Function Fire Control Radar (MFCR) in NCR and is in the process of deploying one Long Range Tracking Radar (LRTR). These Radars are being operationalised in coordination with PGAD, DRDO and are being operated and maintained from internal IAF resources till EC/PC sanction for raising two Units is available from PMO.

 VLRTR Project (NTRO): Induction of two new Units for Very Long Range Tracking Radar (VLRTR) systems were accorded by Government of India
under MoU between NTRO and IAF for realizing Missile Monitoring System for detection of space borne threats in aid of Ballistic Missile Defence. Accordingly, first VLRTR Unit was raised in 2017 and the system is operational.
http://pibarchive.nic.in/4YearsOfNDA/Co ... efence.pdf

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 11 Jan 2020 19:18

Main points:

2 other variants, air launched, longer range ship and land launched.
@25:00, manik will be ready in one year. So should see test mid year now.
@35:30, indegenous seeker from BrahMos has been used, simulation tests are completed.
@37:00, biggest achievements/take aways from Nirbhay are developing navigation systems, manik engine and one more seeker from RCA apart from DRDO.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Jan 2020 21:35

lakshmanM wrote:
SSridhar wrote:It is the Phase-I of the BMD, the endo atmospheric interception, that is ready for deployment. In fact two years back, there was a Russian news report that it was already deployed in Rajasthan.
Radar units were deployed. -
Induction of MFCR/ LRTR: IAF as the lead service for providing BMD protection of Delhi NCR has inducted one Multi Function Fire Control Radar (MFCR) in NCR and is in the process of deploying one Long Range Tracking Radar (LRTR). These Radars are being operationalised in coordination with PGAD, DRDO and are being operated and maintained from internal IAF resources till EC/PC sanction for raising two Units is available from PMO.

 VLRTR Project (NTRO): Induction of two new Units for Very Long Range Tracking Radar (VLRTR) systems were accorded by Government of India
under MoU between NTRO and IAF for realizing Missile Monitoring System for detection of space borne threats in aid of Ballistic Missile Defence. Accordingly, first VLRTR Unit was raised in 2017 and the system is operational.
http://pibarchive.nic.in/4YearsOfNDA/Co ... efence.pdf

The interesting part is these are two different programs.
1. LRTR & MFCR are clearly the BMD project radars. They'll need more than 1 set of radars as well.
2. The VLRTR project likely refers to Super GreenPines imported specifically for the NTRO.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Jan 2020 03:56

SAAW details - credits to the original Image owners ("AMCA Warhound").

Su-30 can carry 16 - 20 SAAWs!

As I had guessed, the SAAW does have a seeker option and then the CEP is < 3mtrs. Without a seeker, its CEP is < 7 mtrs. Fairly credible against fixed structures. Check target list. This is a complete airfield destroyer. 1.2 Mtr penetration!

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 13 Jan 2020 09:22

Karan M wrote:SAAW details - credits to the original Image owners ("AMCA Warhound").

Su-30 can carry 16 - 20 SAAWs!

As I had guessed, the SAAW does have a seeker option and then the CEP is < 3mtrs. Without a seeker, its CEP is < 7 mtrs. Fairly credible against fixed structures. Check target list. This is a complete airfield destroyer. 1.2 Mtr penetration!

Had a discussion with Singha saar on previous avatar of this thread on which one is better runway bombs or bunker buster. Contention was runways can be repaired during war, OTOH shelters are difficult to take out as well because of decoys and are well dispersed and thus would require multiple runs or many planes for a single airfield. With relatively low weights of all our bombs in development, looks like at the moment we are not looking at bunker busters to take out hardened aircraft shelters (HAS) that require 2000kg mass to have the required momentum to penetrate such structures.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 13 Jan 2020 09:40

Karthik S wrote:
Karan M wrote:SAAW details - credits to the original Image owners ("AMCA Warhound").

Su-30 can carry 16 - 20 SAAWs!

As I had guessed, the SAAW does have a seeker option and then the CEP is < 3mtrs. Without a seeker, its CEP is < 7 mtrs. Fairly credible against fixed structures. Check target list. This is a complete airfield destroyer. 1.2 Mtr penetration!
Had a discussion with Singha saar on previous avatar of this thread on which one is better runway bombs or bunker buster. Contention was runways can be repaired during war, OTOH shelters are difficult to take out as well because of decoys and are well dispersed and thus would require multiple runs or many planes for a single airfield. With relatively low weights of all our bombs in development, looks like at the moment we are not looking at bunker busters to take out hardened aircraft shelters (HAS) that require 2000kg mass to have the required momentum to penetrate such structures.

Bunker busters are also being developed silently. Previous avatar of thread had brief info.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jan 2020 10:44

What's remarkable is ARDE mastering fuzing technology.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 13 Jan 2020 10:50

Awesome news! Specs are very impressive.

The weight, dimensions, CEP etc of SAAW are very close to that of the SDB. The main-in-the-loop guidance for Phase 2, resembles that of Spice. It also means that the Phase 2 variant will be for the Sukhois, with their dedicated WSO.

Looking forward to IIR seeker & radar seeker variants

Arun.prabhu · Post by **Arun.prabhu** » 13 Jan 2020 11:50

One can go after the planes, the infrastructure, the ammo dumps, the fuel dumps, or the personnel. Going after planes is hard because unless you achieve total surprise, the enemy will scramble his planes, use his Air defence umbrella to make mincemeat of yours, etc. the ammo and fuel dumps are dispersed and more reserves can be moved to replace whatever is lost and you can’t be certain to get all the dumps... Going after personnel works, but good luck with that if your enemy knows you are coming because those target personnel are going to be scrambling to respond.

Runways, OTOH, can’t move, anti airfield weapons ruin them and make necessary extensive repair and the long takeoff and landing distances of most modern fighters mean that there aren’t a lot of places where those planes can land or take off from. Limiting the availability of planes by going after any or all of the targets listed above is militarily desirable against a peer foe but going after air fields seems to me to be lower risk.

Karthik S wrote:
Karan M wrote:SAAW details - credits to the original Image owners ("AMCA Warhound").

Su-30 can carry 16 - 20 SAAWs!

As I had guessed, the SAAW does have a seeker option and then the CEP is < 3mtrs. Without a seeker, its CEP is < 7 mtrs. Fairly credible against fixed structures. Check target list. This is a complete airfield destroyer. 1.2 Mtr penetration!
Had a discussion with Singha saar on previous avatar of this thread on which one is better runway bombs or bunker buster. Contention was runways can be repaired during war, OTOH shelters are difficult to take out as well because of decoys and are well dispersed and thus would require multiple runs or many planes for a single airfield. With relatively low weights of all our bombs in development, looks like at the moment we are not looking at bunker busters to take out hardened aircraft shelters (HAS) that require 2000kg mass to have the required momentum to penetrate such structures.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Jan 2020 12:49

This is why I laugh when people say TSP does not have enough targets, in truth we are far less armed than we should be. Unless we are able to take out PAF airbases and have air dominance we can never win against the Pakis. Case in point see what happened in 1971 once the Dhaka airbase was made non operational.
We need to have plan for strategic bombing. Right we seem to have defensive plans but unless we have a domestic MIC we can never have the military edge we require.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 13 Jan 2020 17:15

Karan M wrote:
lakshmanM wrote: .2. The VLRTR project likely refers to Super GreenPines imported specifically for the NTRO.

I thought VLRTR refers to DRDO inhouse developed 1500KM Super swordfish which was originally derived from Green Pine..

"Super-Swordfish radar was first unveiled in 2012, it was stated to be twice as powerful as older swordfish radar. The new radar has a range of over 1500km, facilitating early detection of inbound threat. if reports are to be believed, Super-Swordfish is already operational."

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Jan 2020 18:41

Karthik S wrote:
Karan M wrote:SAAW details - credits to the original Image owners ("AMCA Warhound").

Su-30 can carry 16 - 20 SAAWs!

As I had guessed, the SAAW does have a seeker option and then the CEP is < 3mtrs. Without a seeker, its CEP is < 7 mtrs. Fairly credible against fixed structures. Check target list. This is a complete airfield destroyer. 1.2 Mtr penetration!
Had a discussion with Singha saar on previous avatar of this thread on which one is better runway bombs or bunker buster. Contention was runways can be repaired during war, OTOH shelters are difficult to take out as well because of decoys and are well dispersed and thus would require multiple runs or many planes for a single airfield. With relatively low weights of all our bombs in development, looks like at the moment we are not looking at bunker busters to take out hardened aircraft shelters (HAS) that require 2000kg mass to have the required momentum to penetrate such structures.

SDB against a HAS

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Jan 2020 18:48

...

Su-30 can carry 16 - 20 SAAWs!

...

Even an LCA Mk.1 would be able to carry the same quantities!

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 13 Jan 2020 20:32

IAF ANNOUNCES INDUCTION OF ASTRA, ITS MOST POTENT AIR-TO-AIR MISSILE

http://www.sps-aviation.com/news/?id=88 ... ir-missile

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 13 Jan 2020 20:54

ashishvikas wrote:IAF ANNOUNCES INDUCTION OF ASTRA, ITS MOST POTENT AIR-TO-AIR MISSILE

http://www.sps-aviation.com/news/?id=88 ... ir-missile

Truly great moment. I was waiting for this decision for long time. Now large orders please.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 13 Jan 2020 20:56

srai wrote: SDB against a HAS

I remember an interesting exchange a few years ago with a very senior BRF member (who no longer posts here) who refused to believe these images, and the associated video, were real.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 13 Jan 2020 21:04

ashishvikas wrote:IAF ANNOUNCES INDUCTION OF ASTRA, ITS MOST POTENT AIR-TO-AIR MISSILE

http://www.sps-aviation.com/news/?id=88 ... ir-missile

Ah great news, now pongal will taste little sweater.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 13 Jan 2020 21:16

Oh, happy day!!
IAF would be itching to set one loose against one of them bandars and solahs.. I hope Mk2 gets ready in double time..

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 13 Jan 2020 21:43

having a low cost capable A2A missile is a big plus...truly fix it fire it forget it. great achievement. How are missiles evaluated for their ECM/ECCM capabilties??

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 13 Jan 2020 21:56

After re-reading the article I am getting doubts on authors claim. He takes the IAF declaration of Astra missile integration with sukhoi 30 and declares that IAF announced it's induction .Probably we need to wait till IAF officially confirms it.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 13 Jan 2020 22:28

manjgu wrote:How are missiles evaluated for their ECM/ECCM capabilties??

Seeker testing, and data-link/comms testing in the lab, and dynamically flying the missile against representative targets carrying various ECM payloads. At the end of the day there is no substitute to actually strapping on payloads and flying weapons in a representative environment.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jan 2020 22:58

HAS layering can be improved. It can't be just RCC. why can't it be ERA/NERA etc?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 13 Jan 2020 23:56

Karthik S wrote:
Karan M wrote:SAAW details - credits to the original Image owners ("AMCA Warhound").

Su-30 can carry 16 - 20 SAAWs!

As I had guessed, the SAAW does have a seeker option and then the CEP is < 3mtrs. Without a seeker, its CEP is < 7 mtrs. Fairly credible against fixed structures. Check target list. This is a complete airfield destroyer. 1.2 Mtr penetration!
Had a discussion with Singha saar on previous avatar of this thread on which one is better runway bombs or bunker buster. Contention was runways can be repaired during war, OTOH shelters are difficult to take out as well because of decoys and are well dispersed and thus would require multiple runs or many planes for a single airfield. With relatively low weights of all our bombs in development, looks like at the moment we are not looking at bunker busters to take out hardened aircraft shelters (HAS) that require 2000kg mass to have the required momentum to penetrate such structures.

SAAW will take out most hardened air shelters in the subcontinent. If the enemy thickens the concrete and the first iteration isnt able to, ARDE will simply increase the weight and hardness of the penetrator and then it will. Its a misconception that HAS require even a thousand pounder! The same physics as an FSAPDS round is at work when it comes to the SAAW against HAS. Inside the aerodynamic casing is a really hard, dense penetrator, with a little bit of explosives combined with a fuse in the tail.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 14 Jan 2020 00:09

We must not forget about 500kg & 1000kg Glide Bombs, those can be used as heavy duty bunker busters

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 14 Jan 2020 00:30

Manik based Nirbhay would be tested mid year as per some websites

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jan 2020 00:51

Karthik S wrote:

Main points:

2 other variants, air launched, longer range ship and land launched.
@25:00, Manik will be ready in one year. So should see test mid year now.
@35:30, indegenous seeker from BrahMos has been used, simulation tests are completed.
@37:00, biggest achievements/take aways from Nirbhay are developing navigation systems, Manik engine and one more seeker from RCA apart from DRDO.

Prasanna Please watch this. It has details of Nirbhay.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 16 Jan 2020 21:53

Multiple Test of K-series on the eve of Republic Day:
Between 19-21 January 2020 3500 Km range K series test from Visakhapatnam

[/quote]

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 16 Jan 2020 21:54

Between 24-25 January 2020 2500 Km range K series test from Visakhapatnam

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 16 Jan 2020 21:57

Back to back tests, probably means user trials.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 17 Jan 2020 03:14

May be, I am asking something stupid. But is there a single stage missile in our arsenal with a 2500 km range?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 17 Jan 2020 03:52

wouldn't that be highly inefficient? Carrying all that dead weight when not needed?