Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 30 Dec 2019 02:50

Mig 31 and Russians AD are integrated.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 30 Dec 2019 09:14

nam...u r assuming 24*7 coverage via AWACS which will not be possible in a real war situation. Feb 27 did not prove anything conclusively. it just proved that in some situations/positions/geometries we can dodge the AMRAAMs. Dont read more than that in the Feb 27 episode.

chola · Post by **chola** » 30 Dec 2019 10:46

^^^ Yes, expecting to dodge mijjiles is a risky proposition. It is better to detect first and fire first. That is why we have BVR in the first place.

We need the Tejas in numbers. No matter how we dissect the action in February, it comes down to the MKI dodging mijjiles while a MiG-21 was able to close with the F-16s. If Abhi were in a Tejas instead of that very game but ancient fighter, he might have shot it down a BVRAAM instead of dogfight heat seeker and avoid being shot down himself. Losing the MiG and having Abhi captured muddied the results and tipped it into a propaganda opportunity for the pukes.

With so many MKIs, it confused me as to why we ended up with a MiG-21 crossing into POK since it is a point defense fighter. The chini-thai exercise gave me a reason why. The Flanker's RSC is 12 while a F-16 is around 4. The Flankers had to dodge and were on the defensive.

The RCS on a Gripen/Tejas/JF-17 is between 1.5 to 2. A Tejas with modern sensors would have an upper hand even on a F-Solah in BVR combat.

The following from a JF-17 pilot on Hushkit could be just lies but some of the points are intriguing since the chini-thai exercise.

https://hushkit.net/2019/07/19/flying-f ... pilot/amp/

We had the MKI's in numbers during the Balakot and the pakis were about to detect and "spike" them beyond "50-60" NM if true.

Again, it could be just BS. But it should be food for thought. Stealth is critical for 5th gen. A small jet has natural stealth on the account of its RCS.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Dec 2019 11:06

In your RCS calculations, please consider JF-17 is all metal radar reflecting design and IAF through IACCS now probably knows fully abouts its Radar signature since they flown quite a few sorties close to the Indian border

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 30 Dec 2019 11:28

nam wrote:...May be ability to datalink BVR with AWACS to let it cue it towards target...Integrate our SAM's with our AWACS...

This capability is something I had extensively described in my post in the below page.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7675&p=2322188&sid= ... 1#p2322188

Integration of SAM with AWACS dramatically cuts down the Kill loop, increases the Kill Area and increases the number of targets which can be engaged simultaneously. I would really like this to be implemented ASAP.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 05 Jan 2020 13:40

Please consider this an open post for archiving purposes.

I was doing the analysis for my post in the AEW thread and I realized that I was getting very confused by the PAF Erieye numbers. I am posting what I have collated here, but please consider this open for revision:

2006: Pakistan ordered four Erieye AEW&C from the Swedish defence firm Saab. It had intended to acquire six, but some program funding had to be diverted to support recovery and reconstruction efforts in Kashmir following the 2005 Kashmir Earthquake, resulting in the order being trimmed to four.

June 2006: Saab signed a SEK 8.3 billion provisional contract to supply Argus turboprop airborne early warning external link (AEW&C) systems to Pakistan, based on the Saab 2000 regional turboprop airliner and the Erieye fixed active array radar.

2009: 1 Erieye delivered to PAF (total 1)

2010-2011: 3 more Erieye delivered to PAF (total 4).

August 2012: Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) assailants had infiltrated and attacked PAF Minhas in Kamra with the apparent aim of attacking the Erieye AEW&C. The result of the attack left one Erieye as a complete write-off and two others damaged. The fourth Erieye AEW&C was not present at the base. In effect, the attack had left the PAF with only one of its four originally ordered Erieye AEW&C aircraft (total 1).

2015-2016: The PAF – along with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) – took the lead in trying to resurrect the two damaged Erieye AEW&C. It succeeded in recovering the two aircraft, with the first returning in 2015 and the second in 2016 (total 3).

2017-2018: PAF reportedly ordered three additional Erieye AEW&C aircraft (Air Forces Monthly), of which the first was slated for delivery in December 2017 and the remaining two in 2018 (total 6).

2019: Speculation that one more Erieye has been delivered to replace the lost unit from 2012 (conversion of the original 5th airframe delivered in 2010-2011?). The PAF had originally ordered five Saab 2000s, i.e., four to house the Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) system and one for VIP flights and training. This last aircraft is the one in question. (total 7?).

Feel free to add corrections to the tally above.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 07 Jan 2020 14:12

News reports coming in that an FT-7 Fighter-Trainer has crashed.
Occupants may not have survived.
https://jang.com.pk/news/719149-2-pilot ... ne-crashes

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 07 Jan 2020 14:50

1 plane .. 1 tree ...2 crows dead

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 10 Jan 2020 18:19

Link 1 Link 2

China & pakistan 9 day joint navy exercises - Sea Guardian 2020 - conducted in North Arabian sea, out of karachi. The 6th such, but the first with this name. This exercise is also the first between China and Pakistan that will feature anti-submarine and submarine rescue training,

The Chinese troops mainly come from the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Southern Theater Command Navy, including the guided missile destroyer Yinchuan, guided missile frigate Yuncheng, comprehensive supply ship Weishanhu, submarine rescue ship Liugongdao, two ship-based helicopters and some 60 Chinese Marines, the PLA Daily reported.

Pakistan will have two frigates, two missile boats, a fixed-wing anti-submarine aircraft, two vessel-based helicopters and about 60 members of special forces participating in the drills.

They will conduct joint cruising, air defense, maritime interception, anti-submarine and live-fire exercises at sea.

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 14 Jan 2020 02:18

Pakistan's top gun movie....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anv3Y95eL9Q

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Jan 2020 02:50

Lol.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 14 Jan 2020 04:43

Interesting they portray only Mirages as the IAF aircraft.

chola · Post by **chola** » 14 Jan 2020 06:12

^^^ So the IAF has one mijjile onlee between three planes

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 14 Jan 2020 09:38

viveks wrote:Pakistan's top gun movie....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anv3Y95eL9Q

I have observed in multiple blogs/interviews by ex-PAF folks that the only aircraft they seem seriously respect is Mirage 2000, specially the upgraded one.

And in all major strikes by IAF, we seem to prefer Mirages.

Probably those $2 billion for the upgrades were worth the price.

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 14 Jan 2020 10:27

viveks wrote:Pakistan's top gun movie....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anv3Y95eL9Q

OMG! The picturization is top class! Our ch*****as in Bollywood should watch this. None of our Bollywood war movies have any aircombat scenes so vividly picturized.

chetonzz · Post by **chetonzz** » 14 Jan 2020 12:28

Phakistani movie industry(LOL) as same as TSP is bought and paid by TPSA/COASS, with help of phoregn VFX guy they have made this propaganda movie-
in India we produce thousands of movies per year in infinite languages for generating revenue of major studios while they rely on DGI-ASS-PR to produce 4-5 max a year with shitty item songs where phaki girl plays role of bindi wearing yindoo dancer-

AFAIK- we have plenty of movies on IAF both in Bollywood and T/K-ollywood
lets see what SLB does with his future project on balakot air strike...

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 14 Jan 2020 15:10

Shameek wrote: Interesting they portray only Mirages as the IAF aircraft.

a lot to do with the american propaganda that they have drank and got high on....

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 15 Jan 2020 00:29

viveks wrote:Pakistan's top gun movie....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anv3Y95eL9Q

With meagre budget with respect to Bollywood movies, I would say it was well made. The director stole ideas from multiple movies, Behind the enemy lines starting sequence, Pearl Harbor, dog fight episode with Hellcat and Mitsubishi Zero are the ones that come me my mind at the moment. This might be one of the reason where lot of action was with guns as the original movies also involved gun fight.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 15 Jan 2020 10:11

tauba tauba .mere fiziye tayare ke pichwade mein kufr tayara laga hua hai.. mard e momin mizzile no 1 phire karo bhai jaan khalid

mody · Post by **mody** » 15 Jan 2020 14:51

The propaganda aside, it is well made for a paki movie. Better then most Indian movies involving air combat. As mentioned above, a mish-mash from various Hollywood movies. The lack of missile use in the dog fight is obviously stupid.
All hollywood military movies are also for propaganda only. Pentagon has a special desk to cater to Hollywood for movies.

chola · Post by **chola** » 15 Jan 2020 17:00

Ready for Top Gun 2?

nam · Post by **nam** » 15 Jan 2020 17:53

JF17 must be the only jet which gets SAM warning on a IR guided Mica-IR without having a MAWS...

And you don't want to do afterburners when a IR missile is chasing you.. may be because another name for IR is heat seekers..

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 15 Jan 2020 23:30

Its important to remember that movies like this including the original TopGun are made for propaganda and sometimes to act as a recruiting tool for the armed forces. Accuracy and authenticity does not matter to 90% of the people watching the movie who wouldn't be able to differentiate between a F-16 and a JF-17 anyways. Actual air combat and the dangers/emotions are very difficult to capture on screen which is why people resort to gimmicks that look 'cool'.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 16 Jan 2020 07:41

Shameek wrote:Its important to remember that movies like this including the original TopGun are made for propaganda and sometimes to act as a recruiting tool for the armed forces. Accuracy and authenticity does not matter to 90% of the people watching the movie who wouldn't be able to differentiate between a F-16 and a JF-17 anyways. Actual air combat and the dangers/emotions are very difficult to capture on screen which is why people resort to gimmicks that look 'cool'.

true ...this is not a paf training movie!!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 21 Jan 2020 14:32

From AW&ST

Pakistan has given Turkey another year to secure export permits for the engines that will power a new fleet of attack helicopters being supplied by Ankara.

Islamabad signed contracts in 2018 to purchase 30 Turkish Aerospace T129 ATAK attack helicopters, but Ankara has struggled to secure export licenses from the U.S. State Department for the Honeywell/Rolls-Royce LHTEC T800 engines, senior Pakistani officials have reported.

Ismail Demir, president of Turkish defense industries ministry SSB, told a press conference Jan. 6 that Pakistan had granted Ankara an additional year to make the deliveries.

“Pakistan has agreed that they are ready to wait for one more year,” Demir said.

He said Turkish Aerospace (TUSAS) and its partner TUSAS Engine Industries (TEI) are trying to accelerate development of an indigenous turboshaft engine, the TS1400, which has been proceeding since February 2017.

“After one year, Pakistan will either see the stage of our national motor, or if we get the necessary export permits, this will continue,” Demir said.

Turkish Aerospace also wants the TS1400 to power the T625 Gokbey twin-engine medium utility helicopter currently under development. “We believe this need can be provided by the national motor system and we believe this process can be accelerated,” Demir said.

These issues are adding to the woes experienced by Pakistan as it tries to replace its aging fleet of Bell AH-1 Cobra attack helicopters. Plans to introduce Zulu-model Cobras were thwarted when the U.S. government decided to withhold security aid from Islamabad, which resulted in the aircraft being stored in an Arizona boneyard. Islamabad also has purchased several Mil Mi-35M “Hind” helicopters from Russia.

Separately, TEI has delivered the first production batch of 13 PD-170 turbodiesel aviation engines for retrofit onto TUSAS’ Anka medium-altitude, long-endurance unmanned aircraft system to replace the German-made Thielert Centurions that currently power the platform. An early model PD-170 was flown on the Anka at the end of 2018. The engine also is likely to be used on the twin-engine Aksungur platform, which was developed from the Anka.

Demir said 90% of the PD-170’s components have been supplied by Turkish companies and the remainder will come from local vendors by year-end.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Feb 2020 06:17

Sid wrote:
viveks wrote:Pakistan's top gun movie....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anv3Y95eL9Q
I have observed in multiple blogs/interviews by ex-PAF folks that the only aircraft they seem seriously respect is Mirage 2000, specially the upgraded one.

And in all major strikes by IAF, we seem to prefer Mirages.

Probably those $2 billion for the upgrades were worth the price.

While the upgraded M2k's are quite potent some of the extra "respect" that the pakis have for the M2k might be because they flew the M2k's predecessor the Mirage-3/5 (there are still some flying and were used on Feb 27 as well). The PAF absolutely loved the aircraft. Lot of praise for it in Kaiser Tufail's blog as well. The M2k is better than the Mirage-3 in every respect so the pakis might be naturally inclined to like it perhaps. Just a theory though.

Many years ago, when I was a nanha I was a member of one of the deaf and dumb foras. There was a retired PAF pilot who used to post there. On several occasions I remember seeing him rant about how the PAF made a mistake when they bought F-16's and they would have been better served had they bought the Mirage-2000's before we did. Although this was back when the Americans were making the pakis jump through hoops to get more F-16's.

tandav · Post by **tandav** » 01 Feb 2020 10:18

mody wrote:The propaganda aside, it is well made for a paki movie. Better then most Indian movies involving air combat. As mentioned above, a mish-mash from various Hollywood movies. The lack of missile use in the dog fight is obviously stupid.
All hollywood military movies are also for propaganda only. Pentagon has a special desk to cater to Hollywood for movies.

Yes far superior to what I have so far seen from Bollywood. Effects and picturization is quite engaging

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 03 Feb 2020 15:02

Takes a dig at the Tejas too.Once a Paki, always a Paki.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 03 Feb 2020 18:00

I dont think he made a adverse comment on tejas... just stated the aspect ratio and said abt fbw managing the resultant issues

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 03 Feb 2020 18:01

The funny part was graduating students not aware of identity of one of the instructors!!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Feb 2020 04:42

PAF to receive first 12 JF-17B combat trainers in near future

Deliveries of the first 12 of 26 twin-seat JF-17B Thunder multirole combat aircraft on order for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) are expected to commence “in the near future”, PAF officials have told Jane’s .

Eight of these aircraft were built at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra, while the remaining four were constructed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG) in China, where the aircraft type is known as the FC-1 Xiaolong.

The aircraft, several of which are equipped with aerial refuelling probes, had been rolled out at PAC Kamra in late December 2019 during a ceremony that was also attended by the PAF’s Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 05 Feb 2020 05:03

Shameek wrote:Its important to remember that movies like this including the original TopGun are made for propaganda and sometimes to act as a recruiting tool for the armed forces. Accuracy and authenticity does not matter to 90% of the people watching the movie who wouldn't be able to differentiate between a F-16 and a JF-17 anyways. Actual air combat and the dangers/emotions are very difficult to capture on screen which is why people resort to gimmicks that look 'cool'.

Except Top Gun had military advisors - they don't want to be totally wrong, more like in the vicinity of accurate

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 05 Feb 2020 05:11

Raveen wrote: Except Top Gun had military advisors - they don't want to be totally wrong, more like in the vicinity of accurate

Even then the urge to "look cool" (and sound cool) won out over accuracy big time in Top Gun.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 05 Feb 2020 05:14

MeshaVishwas wrote:
Takes a dig at the Tejas too.Once a Paki, always a Paki.

At what time? I don't want to watch the whole thing.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 05 Feb 2020 05:15

nachiket wrote:
Raveen wrote: Except Top Gun had military advisors - they don't want to be totally wrong, more like in the vicinity of accurate
Even then the urge to "look cool" (and sound cool) won out over accuracy big time in Top Gun.

Agreed - 100%
But I guess my point was they weren't going to have the IR missile approach warning light go off like the Pakis

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Feb 2020 11:55

Kartik wrote:PAF to receive first 12 JF-17B combat trainers in near future

Deliveries of the first 12 of 26 twin-seat JF-17B Thunder multirole combat aircraft on order for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) are expected to commence “in the near future”, PAF officials have told Jane’s .

Eight of these aircraft were built at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra, while the remaining four were constructed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG) in China, where the aircraft type is known as the FC-1 Xiaolong.

The aircraft, several of which are equipped with aerial refuelling probes, had been rolled out at PAC Kamra in late December 2019 during a ceremony that was also attended by the PAF’s Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan.

These are like to like replacing F-7B like F-7 were replaced by JF-17's, where is the IFR probe, considering its size on shown in stationary aircraft and placement, I will be very surprised if it is retractable.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Feb 2020 11:42

Saw this on twitter from baba, any truth that this happened to Ghafoora

https://twitter.com/bababanaras/status/ ... 8702499841

Sad to know that my friend @peaceforchange is critically injured with his wife due to an accident. Lack of require health services in Pakistan,he has been transferred to Saudi Arebia. His lung & bones of chest r damage.He is on ventilator. Praying for his quick health recovery.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 06 Feb 2020 12:10

^^^^

A normal road accident. Nothing else.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 07 Feb 2020 18:11

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage aircraft crashed on Friday while on a routine operational training mission near Shorkot city in Punjab, PAF confirmed.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1533012/paf-p ... -in-punjab

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 07 Feb 2020 20:10

Khalsa wrote:^^^^A normal road accident. Nothing else.

Karma is a great equaliser given the way he denigrated Indian Pilots/Engineers wherever an accidental air crash happened in India.