Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 12 Jan 2020 02:24

viveks wrote:Naval LCA looks more like a toy plane. The airforce version is far better.

Well - what a downer!! Most of us like the NLCA but they’re both beautiful babes!

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 12 Jan 2020 02:28

Vamsee wrote:FIRST VIDEO: The N-LCA’s first arrested landing on INS Vikramaditya

LAte to the lungi dance. Party yahaan chal rahi thi aur main baaki dhaagon par mukka baazi karte time barbaad kar raha tha. Nice video:
The good:
1. The craft comes to rest at the circle, with the rear landing gear EXACTLY on the white line. The jet force and cable tensions calcs were on the dot.
2. One can hear the engine not cut back, and maybe even accelerate after snagging the cable.
The bad:
1. Where is the shot of the air crew hoisting Maolankar on their kandhaa after coming out the cockpit. Shot ko cut kar diya,

Added later: NLCA is a sundari, handsdown

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 12 Jan 2020 03:02

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/1215953711677050880 ---> So, N-LCA got trapped by the 3rd wire.

yep was expecting this detailed analysis from you.
Admiral.

I guess we opening a bottle now.

nam · Post by **nam** » 12 Jan 2020 03:47

We have reached carrier trials with only two prototype!

I guess something similar would be applied for MWF development cycle.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Jan 2020 05:18

Grown up men cried today!!! What a day!

Some TPs have got rich. Some TPs have become legends. Mao sir joins a group of Indian TP legends like Munshi, Das and Bhargava.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Jan 2020 05:21

Look at the sortie rate of these prototypes. Multiple sorties per day. This is expected of operational platforms.

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 12 Jan 2020 06:22

Vivek K wrote:The eagle or should I say "Our Baby" has landed!

Thank you for that post, it corresponds to how I would classify this phenomenal event. Neil Armstrong said (when he set foot on the moon), "That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind". I would describe this as "one small step for the Indian Navy/ADA, one giant leap for India".

This is enough to bring tears to my eyes, no exaggeration.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 12 Jan 2020 06:47

Excellent achievement! Now the IN needs to back this program and every future naval aviator needs to learn the ropes of carrier landings and takeoffs using it.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Jan 2020 07:16

Congratulations to the whole team from DRDO, ADA, Navy etc for making this possible. I think the GOI has finally started to get laid on things and there is some smoke and mirrors happening with GOI does not want to reveal it's full plans for the next 5-15 years giving our adversaries time to prepare.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jan 2020 07:25

Roop wrote:
Vivek K wrote:The eagle or should I say "Our Baby" has landed!
Thank you for that post, it corresponds to how I would classify this phenomenal event. Neil Armstrong said (when he set foot on the moon), "That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind". I would describe this as "one small step for the Indian Navy/ADA, one giant leap for India".

This is enough to bring tears to my eyes, no exaggeration.

Well said!

I think Mao saar will go down in annals of India aviation with same breath as late Group Cap Suranjan Das.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jan 2020 07:28

So folks how close to combat configuration is the Naval LCA?

Can we dream of it as gap filler for the twin engine model?

I know Navy is not interested!

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 12 Jan 2020 07:35

Great day...
Wasn't the AOA on approach a little high for a DBF? We need a clean sheet design without any compromises (TEDBF). We should build more NLCA prototypes to proof the technology needed for TEDBF. This will only make TEDBF come faster and severely de risk the program.
Please start a F414 engine equivalent program in India - LCA mk2, TEDBF, ORCA, AMCA (almost 400 planes) - they will all use this engine. The usage will be for another 30-40 years easy, even it takes 10 years for us to get it, it is worth it. If you count engine wise (200 single, 200 double, 3x replacement of engine), we are talking about 1800 engines, @ $10 million a piece and another $10 million in maintenance and over haul, we are talking about $36 billion in today's dollar. Worth spending 1-2 billion dollars in next 10 years to get this right.
Plus we are not making something cutting edge, it has been done in the west some 10 years ago. With advancement in technology (computer, metallurgy etc.), it should not be impossible. GTRE did come close and we have a decent base to start from.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 12 Jan 2020 07:45

single engine DBF, if the engine fails, it is almost sure shot pilot death....unlike on land it would be hard to find in sea. Limited range and payload...what purpose does the plane serve, just protect the AC? (not the flotilla). If that is the objective, don't have a AC and their is nothing to protect. The money saved can be used somewhere.
TEDBF will have the range, redundancy and payload to not only protect the AC but dominate anything in say 600 KM radius. An AC like that near Sindh (500 km south of it, almost out of range of PAF) can dominate the air space and enforce blockade and air dominance. It can also take care of the PAF fighters and PN planes that would make that far, perhaps intercept them 300-500 Kms away from the A/C, out of harpoon range or any riff raffs they get from PLAN.
What would NLCA do? It can perhaps enforce a air bubble 200-300 km around the AC, with limited (yet useful) load and some ok time on station. It could be our choice if Mig 29 totally turns out to be useless and till TEDBF comes. Till then build few more prototypes (or limited series), not mainly for war fighting but POC. It can fight a war, but that should be an accidental benefit.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Jan 2020 12:03

NLCA is a TD. It will not be made operational.

But you are very wrong if you think that engine failure in a single engine aircraft definitely means death of pilot. It is not difficult to find a pilot if he has ejected on sea. The death is typically from other complications. For example, if you can't separate yourself from the parachute, it will drag you to your death.

The entire US Navy will be one single engined birds, once the transition to F35 is completed.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 12 Jan 2020 12:55

My pilot friends here say that the second engine takes you faster to the crash.

Neilz · Post by **Neilz** » 12 Jan 2020 13:45

A little longer version of the video...

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 07648?s=19

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 12 Jan 2020 14:32

Takeoff ka kya hua....??

kit · Post by **kit** » 12 Jan 2020 14:40

Vivek K wrote:My pilot friends here say that the second engine takes you faster to the crash.

There might be some truth in that.. has anyone attempted to land a twin engine fighter on a carrier with just one engine ?

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Jan 2020 15:15

fanne wrote: TEDBF will have the range, redundancy and payload to not only protect the AC but dominate anything in say 600 KM radius. An AC like that near Sindh (500 km south of it, almost out of range of PAF) can dominate the air space and enforce blockade and air dominance. It can also take care of the PAF fighters and PN planes that would make that far, perhaps intercept them 300-500 Kms away from the A/C, out of harpoon range or any riff raffs they get from PLAN.
What would NLCA do? It can perhaps enforce a air bubble 200-300 km around the AC, with limited (yet useful) load and some ok time on station. It could be our choice if Mig 29 totally turns out to be useless and till TEDBF comes. Till then build few more prototypes (or limited series), not mainly for war fighting but POC. It can fight a war, but that should be an accidental benefit.

Everything that we do with NLCA will enhance our TEDBF project.

Although I hope we have a squadron of NLCA available to our carriers, we know that the Navy is set on a twin-engine and it needs to be the TEDBF and not the imported 57. Every trap and launch of the NLCA strengthens our experience and knowledge base in naval aircraft and lessens the grip of the phoren import lobby.

This is a monumental thing even if we never induct the NLCA into service.

nam · Post by **nam** » 12 Jan 2020 17:25

LCA already has a planned order of 123. Adding 20 more LCA-N would not make much difference to the overall project.

However the cost of 20 LCA i.e. 600M -700M, if plowed into the TEDBF project, the impact would be far far greater than deploying 1 sqd of LCA-N.

We all do have an emotional attachment towards having a LCA-N ops deployed, but the twin engine version will be the pinnacle of LCA program. We need to target that.

nam · Post by **nam** » 12 Jan 2020 17:31

It also heartening to see the reaction of naval persons on social media on LCA's first landing. They are overjoyed and there is a sense of achievement and pride.

Not one said.. "three legged cheetah"...

An aircraft carrier is made available, within 4 months of first land based trapping. Compare to this, the Uttam prototype hard to wait for 2 years to get a LCA testing platform..

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 12 Jan 2020 17:41

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 28672?s=20

Confirmations come in that #NLCA (NP-2) has just completed the maiden ski-jump take-off from #INSVikramaditya successfully. It will return to Goa.

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Jan 2020 18:08

nam wrote:It also heartening to see the reaction of naval persons on social media on LCA's first landing. They are overjoyed and there is a sense of achievement and pride.

Not one said.. "three legged cheetah"...

An aircraft carrier is made available, within 4 months of first land based trapping. Compare to this, the Uttam prototype hard to wait for 2 years to get a LCA testing platform..

IN had always led the way in indigenous development which was why it hurt me so much when they came out against the NLCA as a reason for the 57 RFI. Now maybe that was just to set the stage for TEDBF.

Nam ji, you make a very good point here. Imagine making a carrier, our only one at the present, available so swiftly after the initial ground traps? That is first rate commitment that overwhelms whatever doubts I had on the IN's commitment to local products after the 57 news came out.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 12 Jan 2020 18:13

SidSoma wrote:Takeoff ka kya hua....??

Mr. Anant on twitter confirmed take off was successful at 5 today

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 12 Jan 2020 18:21

Great Day for Bharatiya Ladaku Vimaan Prodyogiki

. If it can be so sweet for a far away cheerleader, can't even imagine how sweet it must be for those who have toiled for the last 25 years. Even better, it flew on Paus Poornima.

Never ever thought that a small beginning on 4th Jan 2001 shall in 2020 be leading to Tejas MK1, Tejas MK1A, MWF, AMCA, Tejas Navy, TEDBF, Ghatak.

Now want pre fly past commentary on 26th Jan to be begin with 'Bharat main Nirmit' for every fighter flypast.

Hope some sleepy babu somewhere accidentally approves 50 Naval LCA because even a one legged Tiger is after all a Tiger and by the time the investigations into this error has been completed the Naval LCA shall be all ready and based in some obscure base.

What a Day! What a Day!

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 12 Jan 2020 18:45

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 8042340352

With #NLCA ski-jump take-off from #INSVikramaditya, many more technologies have been proven on deck. Subsequent landings/takeoffs will be in quick succession to get data. A total of about 20 cycles in the next few days being planned

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 0906816512

Confirmations that it was a flawless ski-jump takeoff by #NLCA (NP-2) from #INSVikramaditya. The flight was piloted by Mao took off around 5 pm.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 6057712641

Confirmations that #NLCA (NP1) did some touch & gos on #INSVikramaditya today afternoon ahead of NP2's maiden. ski-jump take-off. Probably Dax will ATTEMPT a landing tomorrow.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Jan 2020 19:12

Indeed, a great, great day for every Indian to be proud of.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 12 Jan 2020 19:57

Awaiting take off video!! I hope it is bigger and will be awesome!!

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 12 Jan 2020 20:02

Indranil wrote:...The entire US Navy will be one single engined birds, once the transition to F35 is completed.

I agree with your thesis (eg Harrier, US Amphibs, Vikrant, etc), but as a point of fact Superhornet will operate along with the F35 and undefined FA/XX will replace Superhornet.

Indranil wrote:...Mao sir joins a group of Indian TP legends like Munshi, Das and Bhargava..

It would be great if someone writes an article about some of these lesser sung heroes. That would help their name live on. Indranil ji - can we request you ?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 12 Jan 2020 20:11

Barath wrote:
Indranil wrote:...The entire US Navy will be one single engined birds, once the transition to F35 is completed.
I agree with your thesis (eg Harrier, US Amphibs, Vikrant, etc), but as a point of fact Superhornet will operate along with the F35 and undefined FA/XX will replace Superhornet.

The F-35 engine produces 128 kN dry thrust and 191 kN afterburner, while NLCA (original mk 2) F-414 produces -57.8 kN dry and 97.9 kN afterburner. It is less than half of F-35 engine, the F404 is further less powered.

This high power solves the endurance, range, payload problem. The redundancy perhaps will show up during operations - and can be controlled through very high QC of engine - that they never fail.

None of that applies to our NLCA. The current one stands underpowered for any useful load or range and that's why Navy is pursuing it as a TD, rather than a production fighter.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jan 2020 20:28

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12163 ... 25569?s=20 ---> If DRDO/PSUs are slow, we have to look private sector to boost the nation's capabilities. There are many excellent companies. They feel as strongly for the nation, as the government sector. But foreigners are no friends of ours. In fact left to them, they'll push us into the 19th century.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jan 2020 20:30

Kakarat wrote:No its not from INSV because its NP1 the one which landed today was NP2 and the tailhook is up

Its from goa https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/phot ... =3&theater

Thank You.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 12 Jan 2020 20:33

Fanne,

I was stating that I agree...

My understanding of Indranil's position is that NLCA-1 will remain a TD, (likely similar reasoning to yours) and that single engine is no bar to carrier flying (similar to yours, again reliability & QC as factors along with thrust , weight, fuel efficiency etc). Similar trends are also why some of the 4 engine civil airliners have been replaced by 2 engine ones.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 12 Jan 2020 21:00

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 2979197958

Here is another one just moments before the ski-jump from #INSVikramaditya .

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 3150123008

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 12 Jan 2020 21:04

https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... 2698609664

The developmental LCA (N) MK1 undertaking the maiden Ski Jump Take-Off from #INSVikramaditya today.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 12 Jan 2020 21:17

Indranil wrote:The entire US Navy will be one single engined birds, once the transition to F35 is completed.

The USMC, not the USN. The Marines are the second largest naval fighter operators in the world and will eventually operate more than 400 F-35's. The USN's F-35C buy is relatively small (just 250 or so F-35C's). The # of Super Hornets in the USN will always be more than the # of F-35C's. Unless the US Navy follows a different path and decide to make the FA-XX requirements so high end that it only buys a silver bullet force (and hence uses F-35C's as a replacement for majority of the Super Hornets expected to begin retiring in the post 2028 time-frame) the number of twin engines fighters will always exceed the F-35C's. FA-XX is almost certain to be a twin given the total combined thrust requirement and other performance parameters..But between the F-35C, MQ-25 and a string of other UCAV's likely to come onboard in the next couple of decades..there will be plenty of single engined combat aircraft operating with the USN.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 12 Jan 2020 21:21

So that is an “Original and working Carrier based Naval Fighter” design, which is one more than what China has at this point

Kakarat wrote:

Don’t know about that Air Monsieur and his post-retirement vision-plan, but I see only one “Three legged cheetah” sitting snug on a deck

A military version of “Ok, boomer” moment. Also hope the late Adm Nadkarni was here to see his arguments flop around the deck like a dying fish

(Sorry, but am in one belligerent mood

, because for first time in history, India does not need an overseas base or support Infra to launch an aircraft that it build from ground up)

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 12 Jan 2020 21:33

hnair wrote:Don’t know about that Air Monsieur and his post-retirement vision-plan, but I see only one “Three legged cheetah” sitting snug on a deck A military version of “Ok, boomer” moment. Also hope the late Adm Nadkarni was here to see his arguments flop around the deck like a dying fish)

With tail (hook) tucked between its legs no less

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Jan 2020 21:42

It is a great day. 20 flights in 10 days coming. This leg will only test theboth aircrafts, different pilots, different speeds and different sink rates. There will be evening ops, but no night ops.

I request you all to rejoice these great days without disparaging the Mig29ks, IAF or babus. This day would not bbn be possible without all these three. Let these be days of pure joy sans any negativity.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 12 Jan 2020 21:53

Finance minister Mrs Sitharaman will present the budget on february 1st. Expect increase in defense budget.