Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

[Kartik]

Those 21 MiG-29s make sense as a stop-gap arrangement to plug urgent shortfalls. The quickest and cheapest way to get 1 more squadron of what is now a pretty up-to-date multi-role fighter. Clearly, the UPG variant is well regarded in the IAF, to opt for these.

The problem with new build Tejas Mk1s in place of these MiG-29s is they have to be produced first. 36 months from contract signature and then the assembly line must be able to produce those in parallel with the existing orders for it to plug existing gaps. Whereas, if the MiG-29s are procured, 11 BRD could overhaul and upgrade them all using UPG kits sourced from Russia, in a couple of years.

Sadly, given the way procurement works in India, by the time these MiG-29s will be contracted for (if at all), the number of years they'll stay in service will probably be less than a decade. What should be a deal signed quickly for it to be a stop-gap solution, will end up dragging on till it may no longer be relevant, as have so many other deals in the past.

[Atmavik]

additional mig 29s have been in the works for a while now. as the 21s retire some of the weaponry can be shifted to the 29s.

[Gerard]

India to acquire 200 fighter jets for Air Force: Defence secretary

[wig]

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/sukho ... week-26177

Sukhoi with BrahMos to be inducted next week -The jets can be used for sea strikes using BrahMos missile
excerpts

In a major development, India is set to induct the BrahMos missile-equipped Sukhoi 30-MKI fighter jets at Thanjavur, Tamil Nadu.

The formal induction will be done next week under the re-raised the 222 Squadron — The Tigersharks — of the Indian Air Force (IAF).
The Russian-origin Sukhoi’s will be mandated for a maritime role. In lay parlance, the jets can be used for sea strikes using the BrahMos missile, sources said. So far, the IAF had been using the Jaguar for a sea-role and also in the past the MiG-27 was used. The range of the Sukhoi is far greater and is capable of carrying the air-version of the BrahMos which weighs about 2.5 tonnes.

[chetonzz]

(sorry for introducing new discussion)

Is our Mig-21 Bison more advanced than Romanian Mig-21 Lancer?
please refer cockpit comparison...
Bison


Lancer

[JTull]

Why compare aircraft that were upgraded more than a decade apart? Perhaps compare the cockpit to JF-17 and LCA Mk1. Or even Mig-29UPG.

[srai]

^^^
No point comparing... end of life. Next 3-5 years all Bisons will be retired

[Rishirishi]

^^^
No point comparing... end of life. Next 3-5 years all Bisons will be retired

With 100+ in service, I think it will be hard to replace them, within 3-5 years.

[srai]

^^^
Replacement or not they need to be retired. Reached their end of life.

Next 3-5 years these squadrons are being raised:
2 x Rafale (36)
1 x LCA Mk1 FOC (16+8)
1-4 x LCA Mk1A (73+10)
1 x Su-30MKI (18+12)
1 x MiG-29 (21)

[pankajs]

https://twitter.com/drajaykumar_ias/sta ... 2158379008

Ajay Kumar @drajaykumar_ias

Rajnath Singh to inaugurate induction of Su-30 fighter squadron with Brahmos in Tanjavur Tamilnadu

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/raj ... 93880.html

The newly resurrected 222 Squadron would be operationalised with Brahmos-equipped Sukhoi-30 air superiority fighter with twin engine, the officials said. "The Indian Ocean Region (IOR) which is a central maritime spread, bordering three continents, has an important role to play in regional peace, security and prosperity. The IAF is an intrinsically strategic force and is set to extend the reach into the vast IOR," Tiwari said.

The 'Tigersharks', equipped with formidable, state-of- the-art air superiority fighter aircraft, which are armed with 2.5 ton air-launched BrahMos missile of 300 km range, have the capability to strike from large stand-off ranges on any target at sea or on land with pin-point accuracy by day or night and in all weather conditions.

The capability of the missile, coupled with superlative performance of the Su-30 MKI, is set to change the paradigm of maritime surveillance, security and strike in the region.

1. As expected, Su-MKI with Brahmos will act as an security umbrella against Sea-based threats.
2. Air-launched Brahmos development is complete and it is nearing induction.

[Anurag]

Next - base a full squadron out of A&N.

[SRajesh]

Next - base a full squadron out of A&N.

Exactly sir,
And maybe :
Maldives
Mauritius
Sechelles
This would cover most our 'Pond'

[Manish_P]

How accurate is this assertion?

Denial of evaluation by us may be understandable but denying existence of the aircraft itself?

[Aditya_V]

^^^
Replacement or not they need to be retired. Reached their end of life.

Next 3-5 years these squadrons are being raised:
2 x Rafale (36)
1 x LCA Mk1 FOC (16+8)
1-4 x LCA Mk1A (73+10)
1 x Su-30MKI (18+12)
1 x MiG-29 (21)

If we are smart, we need to the following

1. Drop MRCA
2. Order 36 more Rafale
3. Order say 24-36 SU 30- keep the line running ( upgrades can start with new builds for Radar etc.)
3. Increase the Mk1A order and make HAL deliver more MK1/ Mk1A in this time period - this order needs to placed now to acquire jigs/parts/ supplies etc.

So this will increase the fleet strength to better level considering the Pakistani and Chinese threat.

This will help stopping us from falling behind while we consider 5Gen and MWF comes into play later on in the Decade

[chetak]

A really beautiful aircraft.

twitter

MiG 21 Bison. Very clear lines

[Kartik]

Indeed. So damn sleek! One of the best looking of the Cold War era fighters.

[Indranil]

A really beautiful aircraft.

twitter

MiG 21 Bison. Very clear lines

Wow! The elegance of simplicity.

[Kartik]

Guys, while going through the Vayu Aerospace Sep-Oct '19 issue that can be downloaded from their website for free, I read an article by retd. Air Marshal Harish Masand, who is possibly the most famous IAF Fulcrum pilot. That article is eye-opening in many ways and illuminates a few topics that have been discussed on BRF previously, but he sheds new light on them..

for instance, did anyone know that during the Soviet breakup days, over a 100 brand new MiG-29 fighters were offered to India for under $1 billion?! Or that it was Defence Minister Jaswant Singh who refused to allow the IAF to order the 126 Mirage-2000-5 fighters it wanted instead of the MRCA tender? Or that the L1 bid for 126 Rafale fighters was going to be around $28 billion in 2011?! Just how on earth will 114 MRCA be affordable if the Rafale is once again at the top of the list, God alone knows.

Either the entire MRCA 2.0 should be junked or the most affordable option that meets the IAF's needs, must be selected. Else this will simply break the bank and derail all future MWF and AMCA procurements too.

[fanne]

In 1991, soviet union break up, we were broke too. We would just pawn our money 5 years down the line and were dependent on western largesse to survive. $ 1 billion was like $ 10 billion today (and that would not still cover the political risk).

126 M2k was not Jaswant Singh, but few babus who objected that these were new orders and not follow up of the earlier one. The govt of that day spooked by coffingate (thanks to one lecherous, Tarun Tejpal), then govt was reluctant to go against that advice (in contrast, NAMO -1 over ruled babus objection and went for Rafale)

[Khalsa]

^^^
Replacement or not they need to be retired. Reached their end of life.

Next 3-5 years these squadrons are being raised:
2 x Rafale (36)
1 x LCA Mk1 FOC (16+8)
1-4 x LCA Mk1A (73+10)
1 x Su-30MKI (18+12)
1 x MiG-29 (21)

If we are smart, we need to the following

1. Drop MRCA

It's the eternal carrot that keeps on giving.
Manmohan Singh did not drop it.
Narendra Modi will not drop it.

It's what keeps the Tejas alive and heading towards fruition.

An eternal carrot that keeps so many strategic nation's salivating and batting for our interests.
Russia
USA
France
Sweden
UK
Germany

UNSC permanent members = 4/5
EU core members = 2


I just wish FC-20 was also competing. I would not see any Chinese non sense about Kashmir on Paks behalf.

[chetonzz]

A really beautiful aircraft.

twitter

Wow! The elegance of simplicity.

i used to think Romanian Mig-21 Lancer is better looking than Indian Mig-21 Bison...i was sooo wrong! the added surface features for both upgraded versions- bison looks more elegant than lancer-
but, wish we had better paint scheme...

[Aditya_V]

No need for Peacocks, in Battle the grey will more difficult to visually detect.

[Karan M]

The Bison is way more advanced than the Lancer in air to air.

[viveks]

Lancer

This looks more like the isreali upgrade to the Mig-21. I remember seeing some work done by them to modify it. But utimately, india chose the Russian upgraded ones.

[Kartik]

In 1991, soviet union break up, we were broke too. We would just pawn our money 5 years down the line and were dependent on western largesse to survive. $ 1 billion was like $ 10 billion today (and that would not still cover the political risk).

It was offered for $10 million each and as Air Marshal Masand put it, if negotiated, we could've got them even cheaper since the Russians were desperate to sell them to keep their factory workers paid.

Anyway, we ended up paying $25 million each for 10 additional MiG-29s bought a few years later. We always seem to specialise in penny wise pound foolish decisions.

126 M2k was not Jaswant Singh, but few babus who objected that these were new orders and not follow up of the earlier one. The govt of that day spooked by coffingate (thanks to one lecherous, Tarun Tejpal), then govt was reluctant to go against that advice (in contrast, NAMO -1 over ruled babus objection and went for Rafale)

so you know better than Air Marshal Harish Masand who was involved in the process and was Director ASR for a year when the MRCA process began?

As he wrote in his article in Vayu mag,

In late December 2000, I was appointed as the Director ASR for just about a year. Along with this assignment came chairmanship of the ASR committee, which, at that time, amongst other things, was formulating ASRs (or QRs) for the 126 MMRCA to meet urgent requirements for about six squadrons of combat aircraft owing to delays in the LCA programme. Considering the likely budget as also the operational requirements, we were working on a 20-ton class of aircraft, which would have shortlisted the Mirage 2000-5, the F-16, Saab Gripen and the upgraded MiG-29 to compete. All these aircraft were expected to cost within $ 50 million a piece as per available information. Therefore, the budgetary requirement was calculated to be $10 billion for the programme considering about $ 6.3 billion for the aircraft and the remaining for ground/test equipment, weapons, initial spares and maintenance facilities.
In about September/October 2001, the Ops Branch decided that instead of going through a global tender, they wanted more Mirage 2000s that had done so well in the Kargil operations of 1999. This proposal was however rejected by then Defence Minister, Jaswant Singh, who did not agree with
a single-vendor situation for such a large purchase, as against a smaller number to cater for wastage and reserves, although he accepted the necessity for procurement of 126 aircraft. He directed that we formulate ASRs for the required aircraft and then start the acquisition process. Fortunately, we had almost finalised the ASRs by then and were ready to commence the process. For some reasons thereafter, the process got derailed and the RFP for the 126 MMRCA was issued many years later, in 2007 with new ASRs now also permitting 30-ton class aircraft to compete. The cost implications were obviously not revised and, as per information in public domain, the L-1’s bid for initial acquisition of 126 Rafale aircraft was around $ 28 billion in 2011. It was, perhaps, due to such high costs that the Rafale deal did not go through, amongst other reasons which have been reported from time to time.

[srai]

^^^

...

All these aircraft were expected to cost within $ 50 million a piece as per available information. Therefore, the budgetary requirement was calculated to be $10 billion for the programme considering about $ 6.3 billion for the aircraft and the remaining for ground/test equipment, weapons, initial spares and maintenance facilities.

...

They forgot to add costs associated with Indian-specific enhancements, ToT and license manufacture. Then forgot about the whole life-cycle cost with high servicibility PBL. Even the model variants offered (these were latest upgraded versions of each) needed flyaway cost revision. Inflation w/ Rupee depreciation as well. It’s obvious they were living in their la-la land.

History repeating itself.

[Kartik]

^^^

...

All these aircraft were expected to cost within $ 50 million a piece as per available information. Therefore, the budgetary requirement was calculated to be $10 billion for the programme considering about $ 6.3 billion for the aircraft and the remaining for ground/test equipment, weapons, initial spares and maintenance facilities.

...

They forgot to add costs associated with Indian-specific enhancements, ToT and license manufacture. Then forgot about the whole life-cycle cost with high servicibility PBL. Even the model variants offered (these were latest upgraded versions of each) needed flyaway cost revision. Inflation w/ Rupee depreciation as well. It’s obvious they were living in their la-la land.

History repeating itself.

And we had a former ACM boasting that the process ought to be patented. It ended up in selection of the 2 costliest types, without even bothering to consider how expensive all this would end up being.

It is almost as if the process itself became so important that the IAF forgot exactly WHY it needed 126 Mirage-2000-5s in 2001 before Jaswant Singh torpedoed the idea and asked for new set of ASRs. Urgency was forgotten and instead they got stuck with the idea that only the best of the best would do.

[Philip]

100 29s for just $1B,that's just $10M a pop! What a lost opportunity, plus the M2Ks too. Let's see what NS is going to come up with in the new budget. I cannot imagine a meaningful increase in the defence budget given the state of the economy.
It means that the cheapest fighter will be hard to decline.

PS: This is the problem with the IAF,always turning their noses down at what is good,wanting the BoB. In '65 and '71 did we have the BoB? No. we had large numbers of decent fighters and used them superbly. It was the Pakis who had the " best". Today the tables have turned.They have learnt from our experience.
We have better quality,but they are acquiring large numbers of the JF-17 and incrementallyimproving it.In future,smaller numbers of better Chin fighters will most likely be seen in the future,perhaps even a stealth fighter. With the tardy progress of Tejas,and it isn't a cheap fighter either, any fighter in the $30 -40 M bracket will be found attractive.

[Aditya_V]

I dont think that was by accident, there are a group of people in India and abroad who would like to keep the Miltary Balance if favour of Pakistan and have influence in the Indian decision making process to scuttle logical procurement in the name of Honesty.

[Kartik]

PS: This is the problem with the IAF,always turning their noses down at what is good,wanting the BoB. In '65 and '71 did we have the BoB? No. we had large numbers of decent fighters and used them superbly. It was the Pakis who had the " best". Today the tables have turned.They have learnt from our experience.
We have better quality,but they are acquiring large numbers of the JF-17 and incrementallyimproving it.In future,smaller numbers of better Chin fighters will most likely be seen in the future,perhaps even a stealth fighter. With the tardy progress of Tejas,and it isn't a cheap fighter either, any fighter in the $30 -40 M bracket will be found attractive.

If they didn't go down that JF-17 route, they'd be down to begging China to sell them J-10s instead and they'd be able to afford far fewer since J-10B and J-10C are costlier. Pakis simply have no other options, so they make the most of it and pretend to be happy. For instance, PAF would be thrilled to bits if a F-21, F/A-18 E/F, Gripen E, Rafale or Typhoon or Su-35 was offered to them and their govt could realistically afford it. If their budget and economy was India's size, they wouldn't be doing all they can to develop the JF-17. The fact is they realized a long time ago that any Western 4th gen fighter, except for the F-16 Block 50 and Gripen C, was beyond their reach budget wise in any meaningful numbers. I mean these beggars couldn't afford 8 F-16 Block 52s when the US refused to finance them.

But the IAF looks askance at the F-21 and makes it out like nothing but the best will do. Whereas, if one looks at affordability versus capability, the F-21 will probably be right up top, given that it is somewhat AFFORDABLE in the numbers that the IAF wants. I say somewhat because even then, 114 imported jets will nearly break the bank.

If the IAF makes the same mistake as MRCA 1.0- which is to blindly set Air Staff Requirements that are probably overkill for the need of the hour, then we'll end up with the same 2 or 3 contenders..and the same net result. I hope they've learnt their lesson and are more pragmatic this time. Else, it'll do the Tejas MWF and possibly ORCA a big favor since the IAF will have absolutely no option but to opt for indigenous options.

TBH, the MiG-35 is still hobbled by the same issue, which is that it is not even in service with the RuAF. It will come with all sorts of non-mature systems that the IAF will have to sit and fix. Because the RuAF isn't doing the job of adopting the type and fixing it to make it a mature fighter. Just look at the AESA radar. There isn't even a single AESA radar in service with the RuAF as of today. The Su-35S is a far more mature fighter but it really doesn't belong here since it is so much of an overlap with the Su-30MKI. 280 Su-30MKIs + 114 Su-35S would make the IAF such a top heavy air force with such a huge opex that it won't be affordable over 30-40 years.



As for Tejas not being a cheap fighter, I know what you're pushing for, so I won't go too much into it. Simply said, it is the MOST affordable fighter in acquisition and life cycle costs for the IAF and possibly around the world itself. $43 million per unit acquisition cost (and not fly away cost) is simply incredible for a brand new AESA equipped 4th gen fighter. I can bet that it's flight hour costs are also several notches lower than any other IAF fighter except the MiG-21.

[nam]

In late December 2000, I was appointed as the Director ASR for just about a year. Along with this assignment came chairmanship of the ASR committee, which, at that time, amongst other things, was formulating ASRs (or QRs) for the 126 MMRCA to meet urgent requirements for about six squadrons of combat aircraft owing to delays in the LCA programme. Considering the likely budget as also the operational requirements, we were working on a 20-ton class of aircraft, which would have shortlisted the Mirage 2000-5, the F-16, Saab Gripen and the upgraded MiG-29 to compete.

The line of thinking is fascinating to say the least.

By 2000 LCA was already late. So we would be planning to get a 20-ton fighter, as there was delays in developing a 14-ton fighter. LCA was suppose to match the footprint of Mig21.. but no such limitation for an alternate in M2k!

That single decision of "small" fighter became the Achilles heel of LCA.

Fundamentally IAF wanted M2000 in urgent ops needs and LCA was the reason.

Just like we wanted urgent T90 because Arjun was delayed.

[fanne]

Some good news
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1221011553631105027
Jaguar DARIN-III inducted with continuous work in progress...

Glass cockpit
AESA Radar
NG LGBs
NG LDP
Harpoon ASM
SFW
NG HMDS
NG CCMs
SAAW

[fanne]

so Jags does have 2052 AESA (and not 2032 as was being alleged). Perhaps we can show the same love to Mig 29s 10 years from now. A mig 29 with Uttam radar, SPORT like avionics and display, SFDR and Astra mk 4, side chin mounted radars (as well in tail boom), voice command, some level of AI (artificial intelligence - continuously evaluating all dangers and suggesting optimum fly path, weapon deployment, perhaps automatic). We can shoulder it for another 30-40 years. It has safety (it is the safest plane right now in service from crashes/hour flown), space and with upg the range. It always had the aerodynamics to trun on a dime.

[Rakesh]

MAFI is done! Finally!

$8.6 Billion upgrade of IAF airbases completed in December
https://www.indiadefencedialogue.com/20 ... -december/
02 Jan 2020

[sankum]

As far I remember it is Rs 3000Cr around 860 million dollar for 30 airfields. The author is out by a factor 10.

[vishvak]

If their budget and economy was India's size, they wouldn't be doing all they can to develop the JF-17.

I shudder to think if it were so. Besides, i think it were easier to point at Bangladesh, claim that the battlefield were odd against pakis and the minorities that faced 'consequences' (another claim) were more obvious or natural. The affordable Russian fighters helped to avoid all of that too perhaps.

[Nikhil T]

And we had a former ACM boasting that the process ought to be patented. It ended up in selection of the 2 costliest types, without even bothering to consider how expensive all this would end up being.

Agree that the comment on patenting the MMRCA process was ridiculous. Definitely lacking self awareness.

Like someone said earlier, we are penny wise and pound foolish in most of our purchases. The 114 MRCA and 57 naval fighters competitions will bankrupt us if their prices resemble the Rafale deal, all the while when PAF and PLAAF induct cheaper, less advanced jets. We don’t even have money for follow on Rafales. Many folks blame this on our current economic woes, but in reality our defence capital budget has seen far slower growth under Modi than under previous Govts. We need to get used to tight defence budgets going forward.

[Aditya_V]

Buying off the shelf imports only gets us in trouble down the line. The only time we did with imports was in 71 when due to Soviets they through 100 Mig 21s 100 Su 7 , missile boats etc which helped us get military advantage. Imports can bet be tip of spear. The body of spear may take 10 20 years but needs to come from India.

[kit]

If their budget and economy was India's size, they wouldn't be doing all they can to develop the JF-17.

I shudder to think if it were so. Besides, i think it were easier to point at Bangladesh, claim that the battlefield were odd against pakis and the minorities that faced 'consequences' (another claim) were more obvious or natural. The affordable Russian fighters helped to avoid all of that too perhaps.

OT but yes quite right , BD has down selected the Apaches for its attack helo requirement

[Barath]

https://hushkit.net/2020/01/02/flying-f ... interview/

Harsh Vardhan Thakur / Hushkit Interview on the jaguar