Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 28 Jan 2020 23:03

Gun angle still looks at most 45 degrees to me in this pic. While there may be sufficient clearance for the recoil, I think its the autoloader/pneumatic rammer that needs more room.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jan 2020 00:13

Raghunathgb wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Got this picture off Twitter. Looks like high angle firing of the upgraded M46 Sarang gun is difficult and a pit needs to be dug, to allow the breech sufficient room to travel for the recoil. Not a big deal. But there is a limit to upgrades!
Will this allow firing up to angles of 70 degree ? Currently it allows firing up to 45 degree as per brochure which I think is on open lands without any adjustments like this required.

The plan is to deploy Sharang in the plains and this jugaad is not needed. Its an illustration of if needed how to overcome the issue of high angle fire.
The mountains artillery will be M777, Dhanush, and ATAGs.

So lets not fret.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 29 Jan 2020 00:23

Aditya_V wrote:Each Sharang system allows a Howitzer to mover from Shahkargarh Northwards to LOC, these guns can be kept from Jammu to SIr Creek. Remember, one of calculations of Musharaf in 1999 was there not enough Bofors in operational condition to be kept both in Shakargarh and Kargil sectors, Indian Army proved him wrong.

He wasn't wrong. We did have to denude other sectors of their Bofors guns and move most of them to Kargil. Pakistan's problem was that they were in no position to take advantage of that and the IA knew it.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jan 2020 00:28

IITM at DEFEXPO 2020 plans to showcase a project to develop ramjet powered 155mm shell under Lt.Gen P. R. Shankar(Retd), who is now teaching at IITM.

It will have over 70KM range. The idea is to Indianize the Very Long Range Precision Fire program of US Army.

I suggested on twitter to develop as an interim a modification to the base bleed motor with nozzles to develop thrust or develop a more energetic propellant with existing base bleed motor.

Base Bleed technology

Most (50–60%) of the drag on an artillery shell comes from the nose of the shell, as it pushes the air out of its way at supersonic speeds. Shaping the shell properly can reduce this drag but it is difficult to remove.

However, another powerful source of drag is the low-pressure area left behind the shell due to its blunt base. Base bleed can reduce this drag without extending the base of the shell. Instead, a small ring of metal extends just past the base, and the area in the rear of the shell is filled with a small gas generator. The gas generator provides little to no thrust, but fills the vacuum in the area behind the shell with an inflow of gas, dramatically reducing the drag. The lessened turbulence also turned out to produce tighter grouping due to the projectiles having a more consistent trajectory. The only disadvantage, apart from a higher price per shell, was a small loss in explosive payload in older shells due to some of the space inside the shell being taken up by this mechanism, but modern gas-generators are both smaller and incorporated in the shell casing.

So a more energetic propellant and/or redesigning the straight vents to have venturi effect would add thrust.

This would require reducing the number of vents to accommodate the larger diameter of the nozzle vent. Currently shows twelve vents. Might have to go with 6 to 8 vents.
A pyramid drill or boring bit can do the modification quite easily.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 29 Jan 2020 01:11

M777 ULH update: 25 guns have been supplied till date. 70 Guns to be supplied this year and the remaining balance by next year.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jan 2020 01:59

Whats the M777 total?
I thought 145 guns.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jan 2020 02:59

Something from Serbia:

https://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi ... base-bleed

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Jan 2020 07:43

Kalyani ULH was displayed at Chennai DefExpo 2018 as well. Has it undergone user trials?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Jan 2020 07:44

ramana wrote:Whats the M777 total?
I thought 145 guns.

Yes

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jan 2020 21:33

This is more good news for EF for mortars improves their reliability and reduces dud rate.
Less UXB to clear later.
Hope it has a proximity function.
Please find details.
Many good things from this.

jaysimha wrote:
Safer mortar fuzes to be adopted soon
To avoid premature explosion of a mortar round, the Chandigarh-based Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory (TBRL) has developed electronic fuze for 81mm mortar bombs. The fuze used at present can detonate due to heat or friction in the atmosphere. A mortar is a weapon that fires explosive projectiles (mortar bombs) at low velocities and short ranges.
https://defenceaviationpost.com/safer-m ... pted-soon/

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jan 2020 21:37

Never mind. its a safetry driven design. Looks like Army did no ask for improvement.

To avoid premature explosion of a mortar round, the Chandigarh-based Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory (TBRL) has developed electronic fuze for 81mm mortar bombs. The fuze used at present can detonate due to heat or friction in the atmosphere. A mortar is a weapon that fires explosive projectiles (mortar bombs) at low velocities and short ranges.

On Friday, the technology was transferred to a Nagpur-based company. Once the industry starts manufacturing them, it shall be inducted in the Indian Army. “The existing bomb 81mm mortar uses chemical-based pyro fuze which are sensitive to heat, friction and shock. We have replaced this fuze with electronic fuze with safety features which do not exist in the conventional fuzes,” said Manoj Atwal, scientists and spokesperson of TBRL, a Defence Research and Development Organisation laboratory.

The conventional fuze detonates after it falls due to the impact. “This can be dangerous for the troops in case it explodes before the launch due to the heat, shockwaves due to explosion or friction. The fourth generation fuze developed is power operated and it will get activated only when its launched in the air. There is a timer that allows it to become active after 5 seconds of launch in the air,” said Atwal.

In the new fuze, air driven turbo generator is used as a power source. On launch, this turbo generates power that is used for powering the fuze. Turbo generator has to operate continuously for minimum 5 seconds to activate the fuze. The fuze is designed with inbuilt delay to ensure safe separation of ammunition from the launch point. This ensures safety of the firing crew. “The industry shall provide these fuzes as and when required by the Indian Army,” said Atwal.

The transfer of technology agreement was signed by DRDO chairman G Satheesh Reddy. He said, ” There is a need to lead the technologies and not be the follower of technologies.”

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 29 Jan 2020 22:57

Pakistan ki Chita ki lakadiyan taiyar ho rahi Hain ache se

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Jan 2020 01:47

Good news!

India's OFB set to begin series production of upgraded M46 Sharang field guns

India’s state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) is about to begin series production of an upgraded variant of the Indian Army’s M46 towed field gun (IA) following successful user trials.

Official sources told Jane’s on 24 January that the OFB’s Gun Carriage Factory (GCF) at Jabalpur in central India tested the upgraded 155 mm/45 cal variant – named Sharang – at the nearby Khamaria firing range out to a range of 39 km, compared with the 27 km range achieved by the standard 130 mm M46.

The upgraded variant, which weighs 8,450 kg, accurately hit four diverse targets from as many different angles and demonstrated its capability of firing three-round bursts per minute, as well as its ability to fire continuously for an hour, said the sources.

niran · Post by **niran** » 30 Jan 2020 17:54

ramana wrote:Never mind. its a safetry driven design. Looks like Army did no ask for improvement.

it is electronic fuse just a few line codes addition will convert it into Air burst munitions.

niran · Post by **niran** » 30 Jan 2020 17:59

Kartik wrote:Good news!

India's OFB set to begin series production of upgraded M46 Sharang field guns

as well as its ability to fire continuously for an hour, said the sources.

well, how many rounds in 1 hour continuously ? is the correct question burst of 4 rounds per minute is totally different from continuous sustained fire.

niran · Post by **niran** » 30 Jan 2020 18:02

SSridhar wrote:Kalyani ULH was displayed at Chennai DefExpo 2018 as well. Has it undergone user trials?

the Ultra Light weight version is too costly, current medium weight version test awaited, to test one need a real gun, Kalyani is in manufacturing process.

niran · Post by **niran** » 30 Jan 2020 18:18

sudeepj wrote:Got this picture off Twitter. Looks like high angle firing of the upgraded M46 Sarang gun is difficult and a pit needs to be dug, to allow the breech sufficient room to travel for the recoil. Not a big deal. But there is a limit to upgrades!

as normal as breakfast at 8am, Sarang is a field art gun as different from a Howitzer as Coffee is from Tea, firing from a manufactured slope at 35 degrees is new normal.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 30 Jan 2020 19:38

IIT Madras develops ramjet powered 155MM artillery shell with range of 80 Kms. To be displayed at DefExpo.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 30 Jan 2020 19:41

Vips wrote:IIT Madras develops ramjet powered 155MM artillery shell with range of 80 Kms. To be displayed at DefExpo.

They have a concept rather, they are waiting for government to grant $$$ for actual hardware prototype (from Twitter)

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 30 Jan 2020 20:05

niran wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Kalyani ULH was displayed at Chennai DefExpo 2018 as well. Has it undergone user trials?
the Ultra Light weight version is too costly, current medium weight version test awaited, to test one need a real gun, Kalyani is in manufacturing process.

I think the gun has been proof tested there was a GIF of the gun firing

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 30 Jan 2020 22:32

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 31 Jan 2020 01:15

Have there been any orders for ATAGs? The last I read was this

https://idrw.org/kalyani-group-likely-t ... tags-guns/

Seems to be that between Dhanush, Sharang and M777 orders (the latter not being in the same class), ATAGs seem to be ignored. I read somewhere else that only 2 gun prototypes have been produced so far and have been through their usual summer, winter, rainy, cloudy, sunny trials. It would seem that the Army has not accepted the gun yet?

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Jan 2020 01:19

Vips wrote:IIT Madras develops ramjet powered 155MM artillery shell with range of 80 Kms. To be displayed at DefExpo.

Ramjet shells are frankly waste of time and money. Artillery are mass weapons. There is no point firing 1 ramjet power shell with 8kg explosives, costing a 250k or 500K at 100KM. You can achieve 80KM with 25 litre chamber and 58 or 60 caliber barrel. It is much cheaper.

I cannot think of a tactical target at 100KM+ which a commander would think is effecting the battle and can be destroyed with a artillery shell!

It is cheaper to use a guided MBRL round! It also carries 100KG warhead.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 31 Jan 2020 02:52

nam wrote:I cannot think of a tactical target at 100KM+ which a commander would think is effecting the battle and can be destroyed with a artillery shell!

Yet commanders around the world (US, Norway, South Korea and it seems India as well) want this capability.

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Jan 2020 03:56

brar_w wrote:
nam wrote:I cannot think of a tactical target at 100KM+ which a commander would think is effecting the battle and can be destroyed with a artillery shell!
Yet commanders around the world (US, Norway, South Korea and it seems India as well) want this capability.

US has the requirement around long range fire support. They seems to have gone for 58 caliber M109. Ramjet powered shell is just too expensive for the amount of explosives it delivers. They are better off with a guided rocket, with a reduced warhead.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Jan 2020 04:15

nam wrote:
Vips wrote:IIT Madras develops ramjet powered 155MM artillery shell with range of 80 Kms. To be displayed at DefExpo.
Ramjet shells are frankly waste of time and money. Artillery are mass weapons. There is no point firing 1 ramjet power shell with 8kg explosives, costing a 250k or 500K at 100KM. You can achieve 80KM with 25 litre chamber and 58 or 60 caliber barrel. It is much cheaper.

I cannot think of a tactical target at 100KM+ which a commander would think is effecting the battle and can be destroyed with a artillery shell!

It is cheaper to use a guided MBRL round! It also carries 100KG warhead.

I think they should do a system.study and not look for point solution.
Disagree with those who wonder about targets 150km behind FEBA. That's the FSU deep battle space. And in maneuver warfare the follow on forces are staged around that distance.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Jan 2020 04:17

nam and anyone else want to approach this in a systems engineering approach?
We can follow on another sticky thread like Rohit used to explore.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 31 Jan 2020 05:11

nam wrote:US has the requirement around long range fire support. They seems to have gone for 58 caliber M109.

US Army has a near term and a far term plan for Extended range artillery fires. Near term it involves the ERCA, 58 caliber M109 (and possibly M777 as well) along with modified Excalibur and XM1113 which will give them ranges in excess of 70 km (closer to 80 is the target). That build is complete and the prototype vehicles (and rounds) have now entered range-testing with a fielding date of 2021 and 2023 (other enhancements like autoloader). Far term, the goal is to get to beyond 60 miles and I've seen figures in the 100-150 km range as well. South Korea, similarly has a program of record (they've even published research on their development) for a 80-100'ish km Artillery round and their solution leverages ramjet. The US Army is not wedded to any one solution (yet) to get that range. Norway likewise has an R&D program in that range group as well, and recently, NAMMO has partnered with Boeing to further pursue a ramjet powered precision round for a future US Army RFP which is expected in the next couple of years.

Affordable precision (PGK) means that the commanders are no longer restricted to shorter ranges due to accuracy concerns and being able to out-stick your opponent is always a desired tactical advantage to possess. It also means that you can stay at a particular location for longer knowing that stand off range provides you survivability. The introduction of Excalibur and PGK and like systems (which will continue to proliferate) opens up missions that were not traditionally assigned for artillery given danger close. Range, and precission is a pretty solid combination that a few nations at least are interested in investing in for their future.

nam wrote:Ramjet powered shell is just too expensive for the amount of explosives it delivers.

I have not read any intelligent analysis on ramjet artillery rounds which attempts to break down or predict system cost but if you have something do post. Your numbers do not appear realistic. Even with a ramjet round, the cost driver will still continue to be jam resistant PNT and probably not propulsion. So in the future, on the net you pay a lot for precision and probably little (relatively) for range.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 31 Jan 2020 07:20

Vips wrote:IIT Madras develops ramjet powered 155MM artillery shell with range of 80 Kms. To be displayed at DefExpo.

I believe ramjet shells should be more apt for Tank ammunition where speed is more critical than range.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 31 Jan 2020 07:59

Initial version of any technology will be expensive and if we need to grow as leaders we need to invest in futuristic technologies or you will be begging Russians, French, Unkil for this when Pakis get it from their taller than everest friends(who would have gotten it from Russian companies)

niran · Post by **niran** » 31 Jan 2020 08:22

nam wrote:
Vips wrote:
I cannot think of a tactical target at 100KM+ which a commander would think is effecting the battle and can be destroyed with a artillery shell!

It is cheaper to use a guided MBRL round! It also carries 100KG warhead.

this is civvies think, not reality. reality is
1. counter arty fire
2. not all targets are out in the open
3. rate of fire
1. to counter counter arty fire you need to a) stay out of enemy gun range b) keep moving after firing a salvo(now a days enemy will have missiles)
2. targets out in open are easy money but there will be both fixed and mobile "Hardened" targets, these will need shells landing over them as in right over the head of that paxi mulla.
3. rate of fire is sum of reloading time and time it takes to empty the barrel, makes MBRL unsuitable as arty support, yes if you wanna blow up that brigade facing mecca with their collective arses towards the sky then a salvo of MBRL is most suitable but in reality how many times you will have that chance? ans. zilch. nothing is costlier than a dead soldier and cheaper than a dead enemy keep this in mind.

niran · Post by **niran** » 31 Jan 2020 08:25

Thakur_B wrote:
Vips wrote:IIT Madras develops ramjet powered 155MM artillery shell with range of 80 Kms. To be displayed at DefExpo.
I believe ramjet shells should be more apt for Tank ammunition where speed is more critical than range.

tank gun do not have elevation, max is 25 degress (it was in a phased out sweedish STRV series) no elevation no range simple

niran · Post by **niran** » 31 Jan 2020 08:29

Kakarat wrote:
I think the gun has been proof tested there was a GIF of the gun firing

oops my bad, did not say IA wants desi M777 truck mounted, gun is there and test complete, but IA says mount it on a truck and test so it was done,then IA says oh no, mount it on roosi Tatra........ then it was Desi truck Askok Leyland and Tata sigh! the wait is looooooooong

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 31 Jan 2020 09:53

niran wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
I believe ramjet shells should be more apt for Tank ammunition where speed is more critical than range.
tank gun do not have elevation, max is 25 degress (it was in a phased out sweedish STRV series) no elevation no range simple

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org ... ank-rounds

There were earlier attempts at scramjet powered shells, that didn't go anywhere. So maybe it is djinn tech as of now.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 31 Jan 2020 10:00

Has this been reported ?
https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 4714188800

ATAGS achieved range of 58 KM during high altitutde winter trials in Sikkim.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Jan 2020 10:31

Longer swords are preferable, no doubt. Plus a Ramjet assisted shell is powered throughout & we can even visualize non-parabolic, glide trajectories that significantly extend the range. But like the experience with Pinaka shows, at longer ranges, flight stability & accuracy becomes an issue. Pinaka-2 & Guided Pinaka became successful once they introduced INS and other trajectory correction systems.

So, guidance & control become as important as range.

And nam does have a point: if the Ramjet comes at the expense of a less powerful warhead, then accuracy becomes even more important

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 31 Jan 2020 10:50

It's good the IITs are contributing designs. This may not have that much use today, but it will be handy someday.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Jan 2020 15:35

Good feature on Secirity Scan of the Sarang,the upgraded Sov. 130mm arty. piece.The panel praised the M-46 gun which was extremely reliable,v.accurate,built by the GCF Jabalpur, and costs 1/5th. of other similar 155mm arty.9lsystems. With over 1000 pcs. in the inventory,upgrading thd lot at low cost would immensely benefit the IA's arty. req.of around 2000+ pcs.These would include 155mm howitzers,towed guns 155mm and 155mm SP guns. All were being made in India through Dhanush,ATAGS,K-9 Vajra and the Sarang..Quite an achievement. The ideal number req. is supposedly 2500+

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 31 Jan 2020 17:21

Any news on the PGK that was being developed for 155 mm shell's.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 31 Jan 2020 18:20

Security scan Sharang Gun

Indigenously upgraded 155 mm artillery gun Sharang was recently successfully test fired at the Long Proof Range in Jabalpur. This gun is an upgraded version of Soviet era 130mm/52 calibre M-46 field guns. While the Soviet version has a strike range of 27 km , the upgraded ones have a range of 39 km. The upgrade also increases the lethality of these guns. The first batch of 18 Sharang Artillery guns is likely to be inducted in to Indian Army by March end this year.

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