Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

[Haridas]

^^^ for Porkistan Shaurya is enough with all range of fury yield.

[sudeepj]

^^^ for Porkistan Shaurya is enough with all range of fury yield.

Haridas ji, will a single SSBN with long range missiles stationed in the BoB be able to cover both Pak and China? Will we fire over the Indian landmass if we need to? If not, we will need to move the SSBN from one patrol area to the next.. or need more SSBNs..

[mody]

^^^ for Porkistan Shaurya is enough with all range of fury yield.

Unfortunately the Shourya doesn't exist. sincerely hope they develop the shourya fully or a new version of the Agni-1.

By the way any idea about material used for the K4 first stage? Maraging steel or composite rocket motor?

[Karan M]

^^^ for Porkistan Shaurya is enough with all range of fury yield.

Unfortunately the Shourya doesn't exist. sincerely hope they develop the shourya fully or a new version of the Agni-1.

By the way any idea about material used for the K4 first stage? Maraging steel or composite rocket motor?

Are you aware of Project Pralay for the Indian Army? Its a redeveloped variant of the Shourya for the IA in particular.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/worl ... mage02.jpg

[Prasad]

http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/06/1 ... e-missile/
We should see a test this year.

[Prem Kumar]

If enemy airbase destruction is an objective, I'd assume that the IAF would also be very interested in Pralay. Given its 1 ton payload capacity, it might make sense for Pralay to carry 6 - 8 SAAW-like bunker busting warheads that get released from a certain altitude

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/I30mki/status/12221 ... 13312?s=20 ---> Brahmos Training Missile for future pilots of Su-30MKI.

[mody]

Unfortunately the Shourya doesn't exist. sincerely hope they develop the shourya fully or a new version of the Agni-1.

By the way any idea about material used for the K4 first stage? Maraging steel or composite rocket motor?

Are you aware of Project Pralay for the Indian Army? Its a redeveloped variant of the Shourya for the IA in particular.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/worl ... mage02.jpg

The Pralay is spinoff from the PDV project and will replace the Prithvi missiles.
The shourya was supposed to be based on the K-15/B-05 Sagarika missile. It was tested at least once from surface. It was cannisterised.
Here's the link to the launch video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkMvcfk_U4I
This link also shows the Shaurya missile as displayed by DRDO on republic day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j46a6U5MTuo
It is different from the Pralay missile.
The BO-5 is supposed to be about 6-7 tons in weight, with a length of 10 metres. The Agni-1 in comparison is 15 metres in length with a weight of about 9 tons.
I recall reading somewhere that shourya would have to be optimised for the land role, as the current missile based on the BO-5 was designed for submarine launch, keeping in mind the pressure and other aspects that the missile would have to endure during udnerwater launch.

A 6-6.5 ton, 10 metre long cannestirised missile, with a 350-500 Kg warhead to replace to the current the Agni-1, would be nice. It would be more mobile and with a range of about 1,500 Kms, would cover all of porkiland.

[lakshmanM]

B-05 Programme
This is the submarine-based Missile Launcher System. A Mobile launcher and a Pontoon Launcher have been realized. The pontoon launcher has been successfully used for flight trials. A system of four such launchers has been installed on the submarine.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/technology-clus ... l/1972/179

[nash]

B-05 Programme
This is the submarine-based Missile Launcher System. A Mobile launcher and a Pontoon Launcher have been realized. The pontoon launcher has been successfully used for flight trials. A system of four such launchers has been installed on the submarine.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/technology-clus ... l/1972/179

What would that line means? does it mean 4 launcher of K-15 or B-05 per tube of INS Arihant?

[Karan M]

Are you aware of Project Pralay for the Indian Army? Its a redeveloped variant of the Shourya for the IA in particular.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/worl ... mage02.jpg

The Pralay is spinoff from the PDV project and will replace the Prithvi missiles.

The Pralay is a Shourya variant. You have an authoritative image above from the motor developer.

It is a Shourya developed without the excess weight necessitated by an underwater launch.

[ramana]

I forgot what did B stand for in B-05 missile ?

[John]

The Pralay is spinoff from the PDV project and will replace the Prithvi missiles.

The Pralay is a Shourya variant. You have an authoritative image above from the motor developer.

It is a Shourya developed without the excess weight necessitated by an underwater launch.

It is launched from a pressurized canister in underwater launch correct? why would that require excess weight?

[tsarkar]

I forgot what did B stand for in B-05 missile ?

Vice Admiral P C Bhasin, former DG, ATV project & Special Secretary, PMO

He was also former Chief of Material at Indian Navy (headed Logistics Cadre).

[tsarkar]

Read his interview here - https://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories469.htm

My ATV team was also allowed to conceive and steer the underwater missile which is an achievement we will be proud of when it is operational.

The entire SLBM development was independent of the Agni that was done by ASL & RCI.

[Karan M]

Steer by embedding officers, and deputing folks etc fine. The same way Army "steered" Prithvi development when Maj Gen Sundaram was at DRDL. But there is no way any SLBM can be developed without RCI or even ASL whose staff would contribute to such a program.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2009/09 ... -b-05.html

Designated officially as Programme B-05, the K-15’s project office is situated at the DRDO Advanced Naval Systems Programme Office, on the Research Centre (Imarat) campus in Vignankancha, Hyderabad.

Many of the scientific staff would come from ASL, RCI, DRDL, the key subystems and technologies would be either derived from, or proofed via the Agni/Prithvi series and utilized for the SLBM programs. The suppliers would be common as well.

Common technology development programs, RCI, ASL:

https://pib.gov.in/newsite/erelcontent.aspx?relid=62090

DR DR JAHAGIRDAR

Dr DR Jahagirdar, Sc 'F', Research Centre Imarat (RCI), Hyderabad has made significant contributions in the development of antennae and arrays for missile-borne microwave systems. The contributions include development of unique trans-twist reflect-array for MMW seeker, planer monopulse slotted array antennae for seekers in Ku and Ka band, monopulse printed seeker antennae at X and Ku band and development of flight-worthy antennae for systems in Prithvi, Akash, Trishul, Astra, Agni-III, PJ-10 and K-15 projects.

Smt G Rohini Devi, Sc ‘H’, Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL), Hyderabad has made outstanding contributions in design and development of Ultrahigh Temperature Carbon and Ceramic Composite products for strategic missile systems (Agni/BO5/AD), carbon-carbon brake discs for LCA, and establishment of state-of-the art R&D Centre for High Temperature Composites.

[Haridas]

Haridas ji, will a single SSBN with long range missiles stationed in the BoB be able to cover both Pak and China?

Yes.

Will we fire over the Indian landmass if we need to?

yes. Multiple level of interlock prevents wrong delivery

[Indranil]

Replacement for every missile from Prithvi to Agni IV is in the works: shorter, stouter, optimized, canisterized and more accurate.

We know about Prahaar, Pralay, Shaurya, K4 derivative. I will not be surprised that there is a 2 stage missile with a 1 mtr diameter and 12 mtr height weighing around 12 tons with a range of 2000 km with 1 ton payload.

[tsarkar]

Steer by embedding officers, and deputing folks etc fine. The same way Army "steered" Prithvi development when Maj Gen Sundaram was at DRDL. But there is no way any SLBM can be developed without RCI or even ASL whose staff would contribute to such a program.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2009/09 ... -b-05.html

Designated officially as Programme B-05, the K-15’s project office is situated at the DRDO Advanced Naval Systems Programme Office, on the Research Centre (Imarat) campus in Vignankancha, Hyderabad.

Many of the scientific staff would come from ASL, RCI, DRDL, the key subystems and technologies would be either derived from, or proofed via the Agni/Prithvi series and utilized for the SLBM programs. The suppliers would be common as well.

Common technology development programs, RCI, ASL:

https://pib.gov.in/newsite/erelcontent.aspx?relid=62090

DR DR JAHAGIRDAR

Dr DR Jahagirdar, Sc 'F', Research Centre Imarat (RCI), Hyderabad has made significant contributions in the development of antennae and arrays for missile-borne microwave systems. The contributions include development of unique trans-twist reflect-array for MMW seeker, planer monopulse slotted array antennae for seekers in Ku and Ka band, monopulse printed seeker antennae at X and Ku band and development of flight-worthy antennae for systems in Prithvi, Akash, Trishul, Astra, Agni-III, PJ-10 and K-15 projects.

Smt G Rohini Devi, Sc ‘H’, Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL), Hyderabad has made outstanding contributions in design and development of Ultrahigh Temperature Carbon and Ceramic Composite products for strategic missile systems (Agni/BO5/AD), carbon-carbon brake discs for LCA, and establishment of state-of-the art R&D Centre for High Temperature Composites.

Components were taken from individual labs, but the entire ATV program was run under PMO, not DRDO.

Admiral Bhasin's boss was the Prime Minister, and not DRDO Chief or IN Chief.

DRDO, BARC, IN DND, L&T are all subcontractors to Project ATV supplying components for missile, sonar, reactor, hull design, hull fabrication etc.

The K/B Series Missiles are developed independently of the A series barring utilization of common components.

And in its own way, its good since we've got redundancy in designing strategic systems.

[Karan M]

"The K/B Series Missiles are developed independently of the A series barring utilization of common components."

This is simply not possible until and unless we have a far greater scaling of resources across our establishment. If the teams working on the two programs are basically the same, irrespective of who "runs" the program management office, its basically the same extended DRDL-RCI-ASL team, Agni or K-series. As can be seen from the excerpts above, the K series wasn't composed purely of "special K-series" specific sub-groups which worked in isolation from the A-series. Both programs drew from the same labs, the same scientific personnel, so program management decisions apart, the engineering resources for both the programs were the same common pool, with some folks of course who would have been assigned purely to each program. In short, what I am saying is this is not a case of DRDO-ISRO, more like a program subdivision in a larger organizational setup, wherein they get to call far more shots regarding their program choices, decisions. Its more like MRSAM-Akash-QRSAM-Astra etc all existing within the same ecosystem, with each program having some dedicated resources, and drawing upon common technologies developed via the RCI setup.

[abhik]

Replacement for every missile from Prithvi to Agni IV is in the works: shorter, stouter, optimized, canisterized and more accurate.

We know about Prahaar, Pralay, Shaurya, K4 derivative. I will not be surprised that there is a 2 stage missile with a 1 mtr diameter and 12 mtr height weighing around 12 tons with a range of 2000 km with 1 ton payload.

Any boost glide mijjiles also in the works?

[Karan M]

It is launched from a pressurized canister in underwater launch correct? why would that require excess weight?

Still needs to handle the water pressure till it breaks surface.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/a ... 2012-04-27

An underwater missile has to deal with the pressure of a10 metre column of water above it. Hence the configuration of the missile is different. It is heavier, the structure is different. Unlike the Agni missile, this missile carries a lot of dead weight.

[sudeepj]

Haridas ji, will a single SSBN with long range missiles stationed in the BoB be able to cover both Pak and China?

Yes.

Will we fire over the Indian landmass if we need to?

yes. Multiple level of interlock prevents wrong delivery

This is really good news! K4 missile equipped SLBMs will be far more cost effective!

With future SLBMs faring a greater number of launch tubes, I think we will have a really robust second strike capability.

[Haridas]

..
We know about Prahaar, Pralay, Shaurya, K4 derivative. I will not be surprised that there is a 2 stage missile with a 1 mtr diameter and 12 mtr height weighing around 12 tons with a range of 2000 km with 1 ton payload.

I doubt that much fuel on that small volume. With 1.3m dia instead, all that easily feasible.

Let me do some calculation & simulations will report back on few days.

[dinesh_kimar]

With 1.3m dia instead, all that easily feasible.

Saar, is the following feasible :

2 x K4 slbms are fitted into each launch tube, so existing Arihant system can be used, for a total load of 8 slbms per submarine.

Launch tube dia. slightly Increased from 2.4 to 2.8 m to accomodate two missiles.

This avoids the need for costly and much delayed S5 submarine class.

I understand from our brf members that k4 has a dia. Of 1.3 m, rather than 2 m earlier reported.

[Indranil]

..
We know about Prahaar, Pralay, Shaurya, K4 derivative. I will not be surprised that there is a 2 stage missile with a 1 mtr diameter and 12 mtr height weighing around 12 tons with a range of 2000 km with 1 ton payload.

I doubt that much fuel on that small volume. With 1.3m dia instead, all that easily feasible.

Let me do some calculation & simulations will report back on few days.

I could be wrong.

From some previous calculations. They were packing about 16.5 tons of fuel into he two stages of K4 . 1 stage dimension without nozzle is 5.5mtrs X 1.4 mtrs and 2nd stage dimension without nozzle is 1.4 mtr X 1.4 mtr. We also have the dimensions and weights of stages Agni V. Finally, this poster on Pralay gives good details on density of propellants that DRDO is now using.


These can be used to get to a first order approximation. I will wait for your results.

[Raveen]

I forgot what did B stand for in B-05 missile ?

Vice Admiral P C Bhasin, former DG, ATV project & Special Secretary, PMO

He was also former Chief of Material at Indian Navy (headed Logistics Cadre).

Wow, that is amazing - didn't know that.

[Raman]

Components were taken from individual labs, but the entire ATV program was run under PMO, not DRDO.

Admiral Bhasin's boss was the Prime Minister, and not DRDO Chief or IN Chief.

Per the interview you linked to at https://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories469.htm

Adm Bhasin: I was commissioned on 1st January 1964 and I want to say I wore the naval uniform in service of my country with pride and satisfaction, both in peace and war. And I hope I made some contribution to the rise of the Indian Navy which I think will be a very important factor to the future of India. I hung up my white double braided Vice Admiral cap as Chief of Material (COM) after 40 years and that is highest rank a technical branch officer can aspire for. I transferred to the classified Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV) project under the DRDO, in a civilian capacity as Director General, and having worked there as Project Director ATV earlier, it was a smooth transition. I was familiar with all the multi-disciplined Indian and Russian agencies involved in the challenging task India had taken on.

[chetak]

Inside story: How Brahmos missile got integrated with Sukhoi-30 fighter plane

Inside story: How Brahmos missile got integrated with Sukhoi-30 fighter plane

R.K. TYAGI
29 November, 2017

Inside story: How Brahmos missile got integrated with Sukhoi 30 fighter plane

A model of the Brahmos cruise missile is seen on the centerline of a Sukhoi Su-30 aircraft mockup at an expo in Bankok | Getty Images




India successfully test-fired Brahmos from a Su-30 fighter aircraft; Russia asked for Rs 1,300 crore for missile integration, Indian companies did it for Rs 80 crore.

It was a hot summer forenoon of 1 May 2013 when as chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), I had a strategic discussion with CEO of Brahmos Aerospace, at his office in Kirby Place, New Delhi. During the discussions he enquired whether HAL had the technical capability to integrate the Brahmos missile on to the Air Force’s Su-30 MKI fighters.

He also said that Russia had offered to do it at a cost of $200 million (Rs 1,300 crore approx). He was not sure, however, if spending so much would help India gain any technological expertise. Air Marshal Arup Raha, vice-chief of IAF (who later took over as IAF chief in December 2013), told me in another meeting that this integration will be a game changer for the Air Force and 40 Su-30s would need such modifications.

Our designers in Nashik went into the details of the challenges involved and a few months later, we confirmed we could do it. There was, however, another challenge. A.S. Pillai, CEO, Brahmos, indicated that he had a budget of only Rs 80 crore for this project and requested HAL to stay within this.

Considering the financial limitation of Brahmos, the HAL board took a historic decision that even if the firm will not make a profit on this task, it will be a good project and should be undertaken in national interest.

It was for the first time in the history of HAL that it was decided to absorb the design and development costs, waive the profit element and contingency costs and finalise a technology project for only Rs 80 crore. This showed the positive synergy between IAF and the industry where cost becomes secondary and national pride, competence and technology development comes to the fore.

Four years later, on 22 November 2017, a Su-30 MKI took off from Kalaikunda, carrying a 2.5-tonne Brahmos missile for test firing at a target in the Bay of Bengal. In copy book style, the missile struck a target on sea, located 260 km away with a high degree of precision and perfection.

We celebrate this success in two ways. First, the integration of Brahmos Air Launch Cruise Missile (ALCM) greatly enhances IAF’s ability to strike heavily defended targets deep into enemy territory, up to a range of 2,100 km (or 3,900 kms with a refueller).

Even if Brahmos is fired from a Su-30 MKI that remains within Indian borders, a wide strike range of 290 km is now available. This will be a paradigm shift for tomorrow’s confrontations with hostile countries. In active wars, the top priority is to destroy strategic enemy locations and defence infrastructure such as nuclear weapon batteries and the air launched Brahmos will provide India these capabilities.

Second, the test is a demonstration of how indigenous technical capabilities have been developed in the country. More than 100 Indian companies involving 20,000 specialists, engineers and technicians work on Brahmos manufacturing and technical modifications.

Modification of the Su-30 MKI for Brahmos integration involved safe stores separation analysis consisting of wind tunnel and CFD (computational fluid dynamics) analysis. Watertight NMG (numerical master geometry) of the aircraft had to be generated from 2D drawings.

Structural modifications had to be within the aircraft’s centre of gravity (CG) envelope and in such a way that they did not alter vibration characteristics. Carriage and release actuation along with electrical and avionics integration was another challenge. FTI (flight test instrumentation) for the operations along with missile system software modifications also had to be undertaken. All this was done by a consortium of Indian industry led by HAL.

Economic prosperity and technology prowess of a country depend on how the scientific and technological community of that country come together on projects of strategic importance. Many other agencies like RCMA, DGAQA, CEMILAC, NAL, AST, SDI, MSQAA, NEUCON, and Zeus Numerix worked together on this project.

The Brahmos integration is just the beginning. The know-how developed on this project should now be leveraged to develop an upgraded Su-30 (Super Su-30) with stronger structures, better avionics and radars and more effective combat capabilities. This can create an impregnable combat cover of at least 1,500 km depth around all Indian borders — at land or on high seas.

Brahmos missile has now achieved the challenges of integration into all three versions for land, water and air attacks. I understand that Brahmos Aerospace will now be working on the hypersonic version (5-7 Mach) with an extended range of 600 km.

R.K. Tyagi is president, Aeronautical Society of India and former HAL chairman

[tsarkar]

Per the interview you linked to at.....

That sentence seems to be a bit of Taqqia to conceal the fact its being run by PMO. ATV budget allocation went into thousands of crores and none of it reflected under DRDO, BARC or IN budget. It came straight from PMO. Infact the budget would be comparable to rest of DRDO budget.

Our second strike capabilities were deemed so important that multiple prime ministers cutting across party lines directly oversaw the project

[Haridas]

I could be wrong.
From some previous calculations. They were packing about 16.5 tons of fuel into he two stages of K4 . 1 stage dimension without nozzle is 5.5mtrs X 1.4 mtrs and 2nd stage dimension without nozzle is 1.4 mtr X 1.4 mtr.

You want me to consider fuel weight as 16.5T or (AUW -payload weight) to be 16.5T ?

We also have the dimensions and weights of stages Agni V. Finally, this poster on Pralay gives good details on density of propellants that DRDO is now using..

Pls give me the approx numbers for A5 by stage motor diameter, Length & fuel weight (or some similar physical parameters) for the assessment.

[Haridas]

Replacement for every missile from Prithvi to Agni IV is in the works: shorter, stouter, optimized, canisterized and more accurate.

We know about Prahaar, Pralay, Shaurya, K4 derivative. I will not be surprised that there is a 2 stage missile with a 1 mtr diameter and 12 mtr height weighing around 12 tons with a range of 2000 km with 1 ton payload.

I doubt that much fuel on that small volume. With 1.3m dia instead, all that easily feasible.

Let me do some calculation & simulations will report back on few days.

I could be wrong.

From some previous calculations. They were packing about 16.5 tons of fuel into he two stages of K4 . 1 stage dimension without nozzle is 5.5mtrs X 1.4 mtrs and 2nd stage dimension without nozzle is 1.4 mtr X 1.4 mtr. We also have the dimensions and weights of stages Agni V. Finally, this poster on Pralay gives good details on density of propellants that DRDO is now using.

These can be used to get to a first order approximation. I will wait for your results.

That Pralay motor stage info was v useful.
Results are good and within DRDO capability. 1000 kg to 2000 km.
Salient features:
---------------------- Stage 1 Stage-2
Motor(w/o nozzle) 5.5m .... 3.6m
Mass: ............. 7000 kg ... 4280 Kg
Fuel Mass Fraction: 0.85 .... 0.86
Burn time: ........ 55 sec ... 70 sec

[Indranil]

K4 specs for similar is:

1st stage: 5.5 mtrs X 1.4 mtrs: 13.2 tons (AUW without nozzle)
2nd stage: 1.4 mtrs X 1.4 mtrs: 3.5 tons (AUW without nozzle)

[Thakur_B]

Is Rudra the Air Launched Article that was in development along with K series missiles?

[Indranil]

That Pralay motor stage info was v useful.
Results are good and within DRDO capability. 1000 kg to 2000 km.
Salient features:
---------------------- Stage 1 Stage-2
Motor(w/o nozzle) 5.5m .... 3.6m
Mass: ............. 7000 kg ... 4280 Kg
Fuel Mass Fraction: 0.85 .... 0.86
Burn time: ........ 55 sec ... 70 sec

The stage weights seem to be correct for the dimensions. Even if one approaches them from the K4 direction, one reaches very similar numbers. Your stage 1 is essentially the Agni IV stage 2 in terms of dimensions. So atleast they know how to build the casing with woven composite filaments. So that fuel mass fraction is certainly achievable using current technology. By the way, sirjee, what is the range that you get for more traditional staging ratios of 10:3 (AUW).

[Gyan]

It seems that :-

NGRAM is Rudra 1, Range 100km (250km?) 550kg?
Rudra II, IIA is based on Rudra 1, hence seems to be IR Guided and RF seeker Guided variant


Rudra 3 seems to much heavier, perhaps based on AAD airframe. Weight 1200kg? Range 300km?
GPS/INS guided?

[Haridas]

The stage weights seem to be correct for the dimensions. Even if one approaches them from the K4 direction, one reaches very similar numbers. Your stage 1 is essentially the Agni IV stage 2 in terms of dimensions. So atleast they know how to build the casing with woven composite filaments. So that fuel mass fraction is certainly achievable using current technology. By the way, sirjee, what is the range that you get for more traditional staging ratios of 10:3 (AUW).

OK for 10:3 AUW ratio:
Payload - Range
1000 Kg : 2,210 Km
600 Kg : 3,370 Km
---------------------- Stage 1 Stage-2
Motor(w/o nozzle) 6.7m .... 2.15m
Mass: ............. 8520 kg ... 2555 Kg
Fuel Mass Fraction: 0.85 .... 0.86
Burn time: ........ 60 sec ... 70 sec

[Indranil]

Thank you Haridasji for indulging in my thought experiments. This kind of missile will nicely between the Shaurya and Agni 5 when 2,3 and 4 are retired.

Much more compact and pretty much state of the art.

[nash]

We needed all of these ASAP.

Delhi Defence Review
@delhidefence
Nirbhay cruise missile will be tested this year with the Manik Small Turbo Fan Engine (STFE). The engine is ready after bench testing. Other versions are in the works. Detailed piece later. #defexpo2020

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 4495551488

Prahar Weapon System

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 6015706112

[kit]

We needed all of these ASAP.

Prahar Weapon System

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 6015706112

[/quote]

How is a missile ergonomically designed ?