Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Feb 2020 02:14

Wickberg wrote:
rajsunder wrote:A nice looking CGI renderer of TEDBF

https://twitter.com/HarshalPal5/status/ ... 7964581888
With the Gripen-like canards. Does it really need a drag chute?

Even the Tejas Mk1 has a drag chute. they use it to minimize the wear and tear on the carbon composite brakes, which are quite expensive.

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 06 Feb 2020 03:02

Kartik wrote:
Wickberg wrote: With the Gripen-like canards. Does it really need a drag chute?
Even the Tejas Mk1 has a drag chute. they use it to minimize the wear and tear on the carbon composite brakes, which are quite expensive.

Yes, but the Tejas does not have canards. Gripen uses its like "windbrakes" after landing.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 06 Feb 2020 04:35

Kartik wrote:
V_Raman wrote:How relevant is manned aircraft induction in 2040 timeframe given that western tech is at F35/Rafale today and next is UCAVs?
It would be better if you looked closely at what your enemies will have in the 2040 timeframe. Technology will evolve, but what is it that you're seeing around your borders? F-22 has been flying for over a decade, but in our sub-continental battles, MiG-21, JF-17, Mirage-3, F-16, Su-30MKI and Mirage-2000I were involved.

I agree that they might be flying. But to introduce a brand new fighter? Is that necessary?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Feb 2020 20:10

https://twitter.com/HarshalPal5/status/ ... 81888?s=20 ---> Here is how India's next combat aircraft - Omni-Role Combat Aircraft or ORCA might look like. A CGI by me!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 21 Feb 2020 02:00

Wickberg wrote:
Kartik wrote:
Even the Tejas Mk1 has a drag chute. they use it to minimize the wear and tear on the carbon composite brakes, which are quite expensive.
Yes, but the Tejas does not have canards. Gripen uses its like "windbrakes" after landing.

Yes, but who claimed that Tejas Mk1 has canards to use as airbrakes? It uses the airbrakes it currently has in conjunction with the carbon-carbon brakes and drag chutes. For IAF, the drag chutes suffice in conserving brake life.

Norway has had it's F-35s modified to include drag chutes to help with stopping in shorter distances on runways in extreme winter conditions.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 21 Feb 2020 04:08

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/HarshalPal5/status/ ... 81888?s=20 ---> Here is how India's next combat aircraft - Omni-Role Combat Aircraft or ORCA might look like. A CGI by me!

Very Impressive Rakesh.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Feb 2020 04:22

Saar, that picture is not mine

I only do cut-and-paste of tweets.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 21 Feb 2020 08:21

One more renderer from the same guy...

https://twitter.com/HarshalPal5/status/ ... 54720?s=19 ---> "Wo jet hi kya jo afterburn na kare." ORCA at it's full might.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Mar 2020 10:11

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12350 ... 37761?s=20 ---> The omni-role fighters designed are Rafale-M, F-35C, Su-33, MiG-29 and N-LCA. They share >50% LRUs with AF variants. But Navy-specific NMG (numerical master geometry). N-LCA will be scaled up to TEDBF. Naturally, an AF Variant like ORCA will emerge during R&D. Let's see.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 16 Mar 2020 05:44

V_Raman wrote: I agree that they might be flying. But to introduce a brand new fighter? Is that necessary?

That's not exactly an argument. If there is a need and it makes sense, why not ?

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 16 Mar 2020 06:12

Rakesh wrote:nd funds for developmental platforms are not from the annual defence budget either..

Whose budget do they come from then ? The vast majority of development isn't clandestine, afaik. Who is accountable for these funds ?
Defence research is one of the department's of the MoD. Are defense projects getting money from health, science and technology, ...?

One general way internationally is to keep expenditures hidden is to have explicitly 'black' slush funds for clandestine expenditures

Another is to have it hide in plain sight under a heading/line item which doesn't betray the specific initiative.. but it still rolls up into the overall budget.

For that matter, it would be interesting to know how clandestine government funds are handled , eg pmo ? I know pmo has exerted direct oversight (presumably funds also ?) on one or two programs, but doubt that it scales much let alone to general development

There's a standing committee on defense in parliament. I'm skeptical that they are briefed on any material sensitive, live item or actually exert significant material oversight

With tedbf I assume early concept work could anyway come in under current institutional infrastructure - eg a few salaries computers etc at Ada etc etc. Would there be need for much more ?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Mar 2020 06:58

Barath wrote:There's a standing committee on defense in parliament. I'm skeptical that they are briefed on any material sensitive, live item or actually exert material oversight

Isn't Asaduddin Owaisi a member? I seem to recall his father having an 'interest' in defense matters as well. He had a record for asking some rather detailed questions on sensitive defense projects.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 16 Mar 2020 07:11

Not currently or previous year. Members are elected every year, so I didn't bother checking all the history

http://164.100.47.194/Loksabha/Committe ... de=7&tab=1

Excerpts of a recent report, for sample..

https://medium.com/indra-networks/repor ... 4952cf4e65

nash · Post by **nash** » 09 May 2020 23:55

https://twitter.com/basavar43289399/sta ... 1966790657

This is the fan art. But any thing like 4.5+ gen fighter with weapon bay, is it possible? not with Su-30 now but TEDBF/ORCA.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 May 2020 00:27

Barath wrote:Not currently or previous year. Members are elected every year, so I didn't bother checking all the history

http://164.100.47.194/Loksabha/Committe ... de=7&tab=1

Excerpts of a recent report, for sample..

https://medium.com/indra-networks/repor ... 4952cf4e65

They are members of Parliament. They have incredible access. They do exert an influence on how the Govt orgs respond. But the Govt of the day calls the shots.

srai · Post by **srai** » 10 May 2020 03:52

nash wrote:https://twitter.com/basavar43289399/sta ... 1966790657

This is the fan art. But any thing like 4.5+ gen fighter with weapon bay, is it possible? not with Su-30 now but TEDBF/ORCA.

F-15SE w/ conformal weapons pod

nash · Post by **nash** » 10 May 2020 15:18

srai wrote:
nash wrote:https://twitter.com/basavar43289399/sta ... 1966790657

This is the fan art. But any thing like 4.5+ gen fighter with weapon bay, is it possible? not with Su-30 now but TEDBF/ORCA.
F-15SE w/ conformal weapons pod

I am aware of F-15 SE proposal, but can it be done in our context to have a road map to develop TEDBF/ORCA and evolve into this as if we induct 4.5gen jet like Rafale and TEDBF in next decade and these will be in service atleast for next 3-4 decades.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 10 May 2020 17:03

viewtopic.php?t=3633&start=560#p716933

https://www.defenceaviation.com/wp-cont ... /su-30.jpg

Though it is photoshopped picture , we could imagine this was a possibility. Austin sahab however said it is of no use in some posts later after he posted this message.

Additionally, if you search for this image in google , somebody had shared this image to HVT sir on 20th April. His comments was " thanks , will study it"

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 04 Jun 2020 17:26

New Made-In-India Fighter Cleared For Development, First Flight In 6 Years
by Vishnu SomUpdated: June 04, 2020

The new fighter-jet will be designed to operate from the deck of India's two aircraft carriers INS Vikramaditya and the soon to be inducted INS Vikrant.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/new-mad ... ssion=true

Buoyed by the success of trial landings of the Tejas-N fighter on board the Navy aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has given the go ahead for the development of a twin engine made-in-India fighter jet.

NDTV has learnt that the governing body of ADA, the principal designer of the Tejas fighter, now in squadron service with the Indian Air Force, has discussed the indigenous development of the new fighter in a meeting chaired by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh and attended by the Navy and Air Force Chiefs on 22 May. Following this meeting, the Operational Requirements (ORs) for the new fighter were issued by the Integrated Headquarters of the Ministry of Defence.

Development of the new fighter jet comes at a time when the government announced a series of structural reforms in the Defence sector under the "Atmanirbhar" or self-reliance goal which is meant to result in India dramatically cutting down on its defence imports.

The prototype of the new fighter-jet, designed to operate from the deck of India's two aircraft carriers, INS Vikramaditya and the soon to be inducted INS Vikrant, is meant to fly within six years with induction of the fighter within a decade.

The fighter, plans for which were first reported on NDTV in January, is a twin-engine evolution of Tejas-N prototype which has been indigenously developed and extensively test-flown.

The Tejas-N programme culminated with a series of "arrested landings" and take-offs from INS Vikramaditya off the Goa coast where two prototypes of the jet were able to successfully land on the carrier in January by using its arrestor hook to snare steel wires spread across the deck of the ship. This allowed the fighters to decelerate from approximately 244 kmph (the landing speed) to a standstill in approximately two seconds in a distance under 90 metres, within the length of the deck of INS Vikramaditya.

Those involved in the design and development of the new Indian fighter, an advanced variant of the single-engine Tejas-N, say that they have benchmarked the performance characteristics of the jet to Boeing's F/A-18 E/F "Super Hornet", in service with the US Navy and the Marine Rafale, deployed on the French Navy aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle. They say the new jet may imbibe technologies being developed for the IAF's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) but will not be a stealth fighter in the same class.

At least three variations of the design of the new fighter are being studied presently and Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) tests and wind tunnel modelling will ensure the optimum shape of the fighter to match its projected operational capabilities. It's still unclear whether the new fighter will be a tail-less delta platform, similar to the IAF's LCA Tejas fighter or, for that matter, feature canards, a small forewing placed ahead of the main wing of the aircraft to aid manoeuvrability.

The new fighter, once inducted, is meant to supplement and ultimately replace the Indian Navy's fleet of MiG-29K fighters presently in service on board the INS Vikramaditya. A high-performance jet, the MiG-29K has been plagued with serviceability issues in Indian Navy service. The new indigenous fighter is designed to be more reliable. Those close to the project have told NDTV that they expect the new fighter to be able to be armed with at least six air to air missiles with an operational endurance of approximately two hours.

The project to develop a twin engine deck-based fighter (TEDBF) reflects a maturity and confidence in the development of the Tejas fighter jet upon which the new fighter will be based. On May 27, the Indian Air Force operationalised its second Tejas fighter jet squadron after first inducting the jet in 2016. Multiple variants of the Tejas based on additional capabilities are being progressively inducted. The most advanced variant of the fighter for the IAF, the Tejas Mk-2 is expected to be inducted by 2025. The new fighter being developed for the Navy is being classified as an altogether different fighter and is expected to be superior to the IAF's Tejas Mk-2 in several respects, once developed.

nash · Post by **nash** » 04 Jun 2020 17:27

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/new-mad ... rs-2240666

New Made-In-India Fighter Cleared For Development, First Flight In 6 Years

by end of the decade: TejasMk1/Mk1A, TejasMk2 and TEDBF/ORCA. then AMCA.
Seems like Government and IAF is full on indigenisation.

nash · Post by **nash** » 04 Jun 2020 17:35

can we expect a 1:8 model of TEDBF in next AI-2021.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 04 Jun 2020 18:49

stating the obvious but the only missing piece of puzzle for India is engine ..we are in big league..how many nations have apart from US, Russia and China have so many programs....

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Jun 2020 19:13

ashishvikas wrote:New Made-In-India Fighter Cleared For Development, First Flight In 6 Years
by Vishnu SomUpdated: June 04, 2020

The new fighter-jet will be designed to operate from the deck of India's two aircraft carriers INS Vikramaditya and the soon to be inducted INS Vikrant.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/new-mad ... ssion=true

cool !! way to go .. looks like the indigenous fighter program taking off on afterburners !! Next stop engine tech

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 04 Jun 2020 20:10

Is this really good news? Does it mean that (i) NLCA is no longer going to happen and (ii) TEDBF will take away resources from AMCA project?
Would it be optimistic to expect that TEDBF will share a lot with AMCA - engines, avionics, canards and the basic wing aerofoil - with possibly some stealth characteristics for the latter that aren't needed for the Naval variant?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Jun 2020 20:21

Nope I feel each off these programs will feed of each other, the LCA uses a lot of composites and a lot of data and eco system has been developed. Multiple projects is the best way to go. It is the best way to develop an aviation industry and numbers.

I hope the LCA is like the Prithvi program for missiles

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 04 Jun 2020 20:49

Yes, having an ecosystem is the best way forward. Let's hope for a good outcome here. BTW, having multiple customers also helps (IAF and IN), and we also have the SPORT Jet trainer program. Numbers is key here - the more the numbers, the less the cost.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 04 Jun 2020 20:51

SBajwa wrote: Very Impressive Rakesh.

Bajwa saar, the CGI was not done by Rakesh saab, he just copied Harshalpal's entire tweet.

If Rakesh Saab could render like that, wouldn't he do it on BRF rather than twitter, maybe with a dedicated thread ?

And Wouldn't we all contribute mithai to these lovely renderings?

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 04 Jun 2020 21:12

kit wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:New Made-In-India Fighter Cleared For Development, First Flight In 6 Years
by Vishnu SomUpdated: June 04, 2020

The new fighter-jet will be designed to operate from the deck of India's two aircraft carriers INS Vikramaditya and the soon to be inducted INS Vikrant.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/new-mad ... ssion=true

cool !! way to go .. looks like the indigenous fighter program taking off on afterburners !! Next stop engine tech

Can M88 power TEDBF - Any thought ? OR it has to go with F414 considering F414 is also going in with AMCA ?

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Jun 2020 21:30

ashishvikas wrote:
kit wrote:
cool !! way to go .. looks like the indigenous fighter program taking off on afterburners !! Next stop engine tech
Can M88 power TEDBF - Any thought ? OR it has to go with F414 considering F414 is also going in with AMCA ?

F414 would have commonality with the Mark 2 ,

Dry thrust: M88-2: 0,8 kg/daN h, 48,8 kN = 3.904 kg/h ; F414-400: 0,84 kg/daN h, 57,8 kN = 4.855 kg/h

Thrust to weight : M88-2: 1.977,5 lbs, 16.620 lbf, 8,40:1 ; F414-400: 2.445 lbs, 21.890 lbf, 8,95:1

Thrust to drag : M88-2: 3.805 cm2, 73,9 kN, 19,42 N/cm2 ; F-414-400: 4.745 cm2, 97,37 kN, 20,52 N/cm2

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 04 Jun 2020 22:09

TEDBF will be the ideal platform to test Kaveri (and derivatives)

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 04 Jun 2020 22:59

shout to rakesh ji, should we have ORCA in this thread? i hope IAF comes behind ORCA like it has after Tejas now..

basant · Post by **basant** » 04 Jun 2020 23:06

V_Raman wrote:TEDBF will be the ideal platform to test Kaveri (and derivatives)

I believe if Kaveri is to be realized, it has to be through TEDBF. Such a push-pull workout is the only way to make Kaveri a reality but also to have self-reliance. Unless there is desperation, we Indians will not see fruition in strategic sectors. In all likelihood, this is the last chance, even if its performance is a bit lower than F4*4s.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Jun 2020 23:45

Rakesh wrote:Somebody PLEASE ask the MoD to cancel the 57 carrier based fighter program!

Why do we need F-18 or Rafale M, when this beauty is coming?

Frankly, do we need anyMRCA when this beauty is on the way?

I was screaming and arguing about this fighter for the past many years. NLCA should've been a twin engined design from the beginning.

Esp. After the IAF complained of lower thrust for the LCA in the mid-late 2000s. The entire LCA2, NLCA and MRCA should have been combined into one fighter. ORCA. by now we'd be inducting it in numbers. An easy rafale equivalent mass produced at Desi prices.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 05 Jun 2020 00:18

No ORCA in sight . Only TEDBF which I expect 100 nos production run in 2030-40 @12/year.
Development budget Rs 7000-8000 Cr.

IAF will stay with Tejas mk2 and AMCA.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Jun 2020 00:20

Cain Marko wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Somebody PLEASE ask the MoD to cancel the 57 carrier based fighter program!

Why do we need F-18 or Rafale M, when this beauty is coming? ..[/u][/b]
Frankly, do we need anyMRCA when this beauty is on the way?

I was screaming and arguing about this fighter for the past many years. NLCA should've been a twin engined design from the beginning.

Esp. After the IAF complained of lower thrust for the LCA in the mid-late 2000s. The entire LCA2, NLCA and MRCA should have been combined into one fighter. ORCA. by now we'd be inducting it in numbers. An easy rafale equivalent mass produced at Desi prices.

I really really hope that the IAF leadership sees the writing on the wall. With a stated goal of 6 years for first flight, an IAF ORCA variant of the TEDBF could achieve a nearly similar first flight target. One can bet that there won't be even the first of the 114 MRCAs coming in by then.

Why spend $20 billion on an import when an ORCA is well within the reach of the local industry? Private sector industries could be roped in from the beginning to work on specific work packages to lighten the increased load on ADA and HAL engineering resources.

the IAF could compromise and agree that an additional 36-48 Rafales would be what they could get - 72 to 84 Rafales is 3/4th of their original MRCA requirement anyway.

And the remaining 114 could be ORCA.

chola · Post by **chola** » 05 Jun 2020 00:20

I could not have imagined that we would embark on so many different types just a year ago and now I am seeing CGIs of a twin-engine CARRIER fighter!!!

Are those graphics official? TEDBF is my favorite now. There is so much to look forward to!

kit · Post by **kit** » 05 Jun 2020 00:27

chola wrote:I could not have imagined that we would embark on so many different types just a year ago and now I am seeing CGIs of a twin-engine CARRIER fighter!!!

Are those graphics official? TEDBF is my favorite now. There is so much to look forward to!

the hardest step is always the first !

basant · Post by **basant** » 05 Jun 2020 00:34

Kartik wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: ...
I really really hope that the IAF leadership sees the writing on the wall. With a stated goal of 6 years for first flight, an IAF ORCA variant of the TEDBF could achieve a nearly similar first flight target. One can bet that there won't be even the first of the 114 MRCAs coming in by then.
...

Sir, given the state of economy and resource crunch, it would be a terrible mistake to spread the limited resources thin. Earlier we were discussing reducing the number of fighter variants, now it looks exactly the opposite! Mk2 and ORCA are both 4+ generation and one of them should be enough. Though to me, it should be Mk1A, if necessary Mk1A+ and AMCA/Ghatak. I would be happier if we start working on 6th gen technologies, otherwise we shall always lag a gen or two behind. Just my 2p.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Jun 2020 00:56

yensoy wrote:Is this really good news? Does it mean that (i) NLCA is no longer going to happen and (ii) TEDBF will take away resources from AMCA project?
Would it be optimistic to expect that TEDBF will share a lot with AMCA - engines, avionics, canards and the basic wing aerofoil - with possibly some stealth characteristics for the latter that aren't needed for the Naval variant?

it is excellent news. It is extremely important that unobtanium goals not be set for a naval fighter. As it is, designing a naval fighter is a difficult task, adding AMCA requirements on top of the requirements that drove Naval LCA design would again lead to weight gain and issues related to that.

TEDBF is very achievable, with all the elements being either worked on or proven. Tejas Mk2 and Naval LCA Mk1 programs directly contribute to it.
- F-414 integration and new avionics and systems will be already being done for the re-sized and larger Tejas Mk2 and
- Naval LCA Mk1 design elements that led to successful carrier landing and take off

Just don't keep adding scope that is unnecessary or driven by an urge to have the best at the first shot. It is essential that we get it flying and in service quickly. Upgrades can always be done as and when needed.

TEDBF will cost a lot less than either of the imported naval fighter, Rafale M or Super Hornet, that much is for sure. That 57 MRCBF wasn't going to go anywhere anyway. I guess the Navy leadership understood that, and has now made the wise decision.

Plus, it adds to the indigenous Tejas related eco-system that will already be getting a huge fillip with the Mk1A and Mk2 orders. The more indigenous fighters there are across services, the larger the need for indigenous MRO, indigenous weapons, indigenous systems, engines, etc. The business case for growing the aerospace industry, tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 suppliers and related eco-system only becomes that much stronger.

AMCA is as of now an IAF program. TEDBF getting REAL funding won't impact AMCA directly but ADA will for sure need additional engineering resources as this will now be a full-fledged development program.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Jun 2020 01:04

chola wrote:I could not have imagined that we would embark on so many different types just a year ago and now I am seeing CGIs of a twin-engine CARRIER fighter!!!

Are those graphics official? TEDBF is my favorite now. There is so much to look forward to!

It is quite crude as of now, the renderings. They are official as in they did come out of HAL, I believe. They are definitely not Harshal Pal or Kuntal's fan art. HVT had tweeted them months ago, earlier this year.

But the sizing is off for sure. The nozzle size seems inconsistent with F-414 and more M-88 size.

To me, these were basically initial ORCA renderings based on ONE of the possible TEDBF configs - delta wing with canards. They were then being used for initial sizing requirements.

We'll probably get to see a more definitive design around Aero India 2021, if there is such an event next year.