Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Kanson
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kanson »

Aditya_V wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:One more junk deal to please someone else. AIM-120C Jai Ho!

India to buy NASAMS-II
Look US has soo many leverage points , I think from 2008 onwards it is pretty clear, we need buy a lot of weapons from them. If we dont want MRCA from them but need GE engines, we definately have to compensate them, it is not fair but we have to be practical.

Anyway hopefully this gives a close look on the AIM 120C-7 missiles.
This may not have to be seen this way. You heard strategic partnership? These are some of the modalities that was exercised from our side to maintain & flourish the partnership in more meaningful way. We have similar relationship w our dear friend Russia and we extend the same to our new friend US.

Is C8 export variant of AIM 120-D to non-nato allies?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

Kanson wrote:
Is C8 export variant of AIM 120-D to non-nato allies?
No.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7675&start=2520#p2413168
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Rendering....Drag & Drop picture into new window for full size.

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 80296?s=20 ---> Future air-to-ground weapons for IAF

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Rendering....Drag & Drop picture into new window for full size.

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 21984?s=20 ---> Anti radiation missile by DRDO.

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

NASM seems to be very loosely inspired from Popeye.

I thought that Sudershan was a cancelled program due to post launch tumble.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Drag & Drop into new window for full size.

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 51360?s=20 ---> NASM

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/123 ... 27968?s=20 ----> DRDO presented a very clear headed concept of its Naval Anti-Shipping Missile Short Range (NASM-SR) at Def Expo 2020. The sea skimming missile is being developed for use from Sea King helicopters.

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/123 ... 63968?s=20 ---> Equipped with INS for mid-course navigation and IIR for terminal homing, the missile should be capable of fire-and-forget launch. However, it does have a two way data link (for abort, change of target?) IAC, NASM-SR would be difficult to detect, engage, seduce or jam!

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/123 ... 29280?s=20 ----> The data link would also be essential in case of a fast moving vessel which could change its coordinates substantially with the 2-3 min flight time.

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 48324?s=20 ----> Under Development DRDO Missiles which are yet to start testing:

• Akash NG
• Astra Mk2
• XRSAM
• VL-SRSAM for Navy
• RudraM family of A2G cruise missiles
• NASM-SR (Heli launched AShM)
• SMART (Assisted Torpedo)
• Pralay SSM
• Pranash (Upgraded Prahaar SSM)
• STAR (Supersonic Target Missile)
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 40000?s=20 ----> Family of new subsonic cruise missiles which will be based on Nirbhay.

• Land based: Indigenous Technology Cruise Missile (ITCM)
• Ship launched: Long Range Land Attack Cruise Missile (LRLACM)
• Air-Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM)
• Submarine Launched Cruise Missile (SLCM)
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Indranil, What does it take to develop a hellfire class missile? How does Helina compare to Hellfire?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote:Indranil, What does it take to develop a hellfire class missile? How does Helina compare to Hellfire?
Not Indranil, but will take a stab at it. Most of the components already exist. In terms of warhead and the missile flight control laws and the related actuators.

The air frame and the related control surfaces should be easy.

The big question mark would be the maturity of the seekers within the DRDO labs. If the seeker performs for SANT in Indian environments as intended. Then we are already halfway home. The other half would be putting the missile together.

The missile will be competitive with Hellfire.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

Ramana ji,

Hellfire's long operational life has made it evolve into family of missiles. The anti-armor version, we already have in the Helina. The other warheads need to be integrated and tested.

But, we are developing our designs in a different era from when the Hellfire was developed. Technology on both the missile and the anti-missile-platform fronts have moved ahead. So, there is a need for higher standoff distance. Hence the SANT and SAAW class of weapons. I don't think we will see Helina going onboard UAVs. I expect it to be SANT and SAAW variants. That's 2 years away from operationalization.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

The Hellfire has been superseded by the JAGM, JAGM-F and later an JAGM II. The problem with range increases in this form factor (or at least within the same numerical carriage requirements on platforms of interest especially UAV's) is that the range is often dictated by much *harder* and often limiting time of flight requirements and the overall weapon form factor. The US Army is currently buying interim Spile NLOS for medium ranged shots off of its Apache fleet. But the future requirements it has for the Long Range Precision Munition are beyond that - >40 km range in a sub 90 kg weapon (with canister, if cannisterized) with a time of flight at max range of about 90 seconds. When you are looking to arm UAS's there will always be other limiting specifications that hold you back from just seeking more and more range.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Our CLGM/SAMHO is the Hellfire equivalent, in the cheap, laser guided category. The cold shoulder it has received & its restriction as a cannon-launched missile is sad
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/123 ... 27968?s=20 ----> DRDO presented a very clear headed concept of its Naval Anti-Shipping Missile Short Range (NASM-SR) at Def Expo 2020. The sea skimming missile is being developed for use from Sea King
Hmm interesting it is not using Turbojet that will explain its shorter range compared to Sea Eagle but it is still subsonic, the choice was made perhaps to simplify testing and bringer to production faster?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

This has been done on purpose to allow more flexibility with the choice of helicopters.

An optimized scaled down version of Nirbhay already is in the making. A few more (smaller) configs in design considerations.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ranjan.rao »

Came across this folks..
https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/sd/p ... 9B6DA4C46D

came across this..while this is only simulation but gives some peek into the thought process. Not sure where else to put it...
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Someone please write an article on K-6 from public data.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12356 ... 69632?s=20 ---> Meteor is built in partnership with Germans (ramjet). Clash of interest. MBDA gave a flimsy excuse so as to exit Meteor integration. LCA directly influences prospects of sales in India. One can imagine why EF, SAAB & Dassault don't want Meteor on LCA. Good for Astra Mk-2.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/defenceglobe/status ... 04545?s=20 ---> Sir, are they still going for Astra Mk2 as a dual pulsed missile till a SFDR based version of Astra is developed?

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12357 ... 37568?s=20 ---> Yes. Many variants are on the cards. IIR head & CCM also. Mk-2 development is full steam.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12355 ... 59750?s=20 ---> Astra is better than any missile in IAF/IN today. It's got 2-way data-link, which no other missile in Asia has. It's got a clear path to enhancements, for even better end-game maneuvering + longer range. It's Indian, so services can get it off the shelf, without waiting.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12350 ... 83232?s=20 ---> ACM Bhadauria said "... when our indigenous Astra goes on to the Su-30 & MiG-29 that is the real power of parity and better performace that will spread across the air force... Indigenous technology projects need to succeed..."
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vips »

Testing of a couple of missiles is cancelled and postponed as Russian and Isreali experts are unable to travel due to the Coronoa Virus situation.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

MRSAM and SFDR?

https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 19194.html

BHUBANESWAR: The threat of novel coronavirus has cast a shadow on flight testing of at least two missiles that have been jointly developed by India in collaboration with Russia and Israel.

Defence sources said the missiles were scheduled to be test-fired from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off Odisha coast. With India restricting travellers from foreign countries, scientists from Israel and Russia had to stay back in their respective countries leading to deferment of both the tests till the situation normalises.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Karan M wrote:MRSAM and SFDR?

https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 19194.html

BHUBANESWAR: The threat of novel coronavirus has cast a shadow on flight testing of at least two missiles that have been jointly developed by India in collaboration with Russia and Israel.

Defence sources said the missiles were scheduled to be test-fired from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off Odisha coast. With India restricting travellers from foreign countries, scientists from Israel and Russia had to stay back in their respective countries leading to deferment of both the tests till the situation normalises.
In the world where telemetry is available for analysis. What is the real requirement for having Russians or the yahudi on location at the test site.

Conduct the test and share the telemetry with the design partners for analysis and compliance with design parameters.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by manjgu »

can someone detail the 2 way data link...how it works...
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

Defence sources said the missiles were scheduled to be test-fired from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off Odisha coast. With India restricting travellers from foreign countries, scientists from Israel and Russia had to stay back in their respective countries leading to deferment of both the tests till the situation normalises.
We could send a IAF plane or a business jet to get them over here, if they are so required.

Why stop the test. Both MRSAM & SFDR are crucial for us.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by NachiketM »

manjgu wrote:can someone detail the 2 way data link...how it works...
Well it's mostly an automated process where the missile and the fighter's FCR computers talk to each other and make decisions based on what each sees and what one knows about the situation.
The FCR computer can actually see what the radar seeker sees so enables better endgame guidance or re-targeting.
Also through DL a buddy launch and control can be achieved through various other platforms and also possible to get a hit assessment and better ECCM resistance.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by manjgu »

so the firing a/c has to be pointing in the general direction of the enemy a/c ( target) for the 2 way DL to work ? if the firing a/c turns away then the missile is like in single DL mode??
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

manjgu wrote:so the firing a/c has to be pointing in the general direction of the enemy a/c ( target) for the 2 way DL to work ? if the firing a/c turns away then the missile is like in single DL mode??
Firing aircraft needs to cover target at at angle need not be directly facing it.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by manjgu »

YY i said in general direction of the enemy a/c.. what if the shooter a/c turns back... ?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Last known coordinates before turning onboarding seeker. Or shooter can turn back and turn around partially to give an update to missile.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

del
Last edited by kit on 23 Mar 2020 03:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by srai »

manjgu wrote:YY i said in general direction of the enemy a/c.. what if the shooter a/c turns back... ?
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Buddy mode -> one targets, the other shoots
Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by manjgu »

1) thanks for the illustrations 2) as per advertised capability of astra...a) is their cooperative engagement ? b) what happens to DL when shooter a/c turns tail ... in opp direction of enemy a/c
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

srai, Through as usual. Never a useless post from you.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

I think the DRDO tests should proceed and telemetry and video shared later.

The testing date is set taking a lot of things into consideration.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by NachiketM »

This question is for the seniors here;

How does the Home-on-Jammer (HOJ) mode of modern missiles actually work?
Why didn't the our aircraft use it on 27th Feb?
Does Astra come with this mode too?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nachiket »

NachiketM wrote:This question is for the seniors here;

How does the Home-on-Jammer (HOJ) mode of modern missiles actually work?
Why didn't the our aircraft use it on 27th Feb?
Does Astra come with this mode too?
In HOJ mode the missile (AAM like R-77 or AMRAAM) switches to a passive homing mechanism similar to that of an anti-radiation missile (ARM) like the Kh-31P Krypton or AGM-88 HARM, although actual ARM's would be much better at doing it.

There are obviously limits to this capability. An older noise jammer which transmits continuously can be easier to locate than a modern DRFM jammer which tries to spoof the radar by mimicking a response to the original signal. With a modern DRFM jammer the missile seeker may not even detect that it is being jammed. Also, it is more difficult to get accurate range to target using HOJ than a real radar-lock.

I'm not sure about your second question. In what context were we supposed to use this? This capability is automated on AAM's I believe. We did not fire any R-77's for a variety of reasons which were discussed in the thread about that incident. HOJ never got into the picture.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by NachiketM »

nachiket wrote:
NachiketM wrote:This question is for the seniors here;

How does the Home-on-Jammer (HOJ) mode of modern missiles actually work?
Why didn't the our aircraft use it on 27th Feb?
Does Astra come with this mode too?
In HOJ mode the missile (AAM like R-77 or AMRAAM) switches to a passive homing mechanism similar to that of an anti-radiation missile (ARM) like the Kh-31P Krypton or AGM-88 HARM, although actual ARM's would be much better at doing it.

There are obviously limits to this capability. An older noise jammer which transmits continuously can be easier to locate than a modern DRFM jammer which tries to spoof the radar by mimicking a response to the original signal. With a modern DRFM jammer the missile seeker may not even detect that it is being jammed. Also, it is more difficult to get accurate range to target using HOJ than a real radar-lock.

I'm not sure about your second question. In what context were we supposed to use this? This capability is automated on AAM's I believe. We did not fire any R-77's for a variety of reasons which were discussed in the thread about that incident. HOJ never got into the picture.

The second question was in context of our communications being jammed by the enemy. Not sure if it was ground station or airborne.
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