Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

[Philip]

Turks don't have the logistiics to come to Pak's aid,apart from gifting some mil. toys. Their troops are getting roasted in Syria by Ru airstrikes and Erdo's Libyan gambit will sink in the waters of the Meditt. He can't even handle the refugee crisis.The cretin that he is fails to realise that the best way in getting rid of them is sending them back to Syria and cooperating with Assad and Putin to end the war by crushiing the last rebel remnants of ISIS, etc. Once that happens, he can cement his position with the Kurds and if he wants to commit suicide,press on in Libya.

India should squeeze Turkey economically by banning our tourist sample from going there ( advisory on war, China virus,etc.,etc.,any damn excuse),no Turkish imports ( Selpak toilet rolls, turkish delight, for ex, etc. ) .No Turkish visitors too into India. Plus side with the Greeks and anti- Turk nations like Armenia. Remember the Armenian genocide? My great- grandmother was Armenian,fled the genocide,by the way. No personal love lost for the treacherous Turks.

[kit]

Looks like Russia is not going in for a direct fight with Ankara, but will clobber them in Syria as and when required., Erdoggone will definitely try to close off the Bosphorus straits and force russia's hand now., and when they do (if) , invoke the Article 5 of the NATO treaty.

[Rony]

The ‘Stolen Province’ : Why Turkey Was Given A Corner Of Syria By France 80 Years Ago

Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is becoming more and more embroiled in a direct fight with Syria over Idlib Province. The fighting is directly across the border from Hatay, a province which was given to Turkey in 1939 after a disputed referendum.

Now called Hatay province, it contains the cities of Antakya and Iskanderun - previously known as Antioch and Alexandretta - and the port of Dortyol, which was known as Chork Marzban to its Armenian population before the genocide which finally ended in 1923.

Syria, Lebanon and much of the Middle East had been part of the Ottoman Empire until it collapsed after being defeated in the First World War.

Under the Treaty of Lausanne, Hatay was part of the French mandate of Syria and Lebanon but just before the Second World War broke out, Paris suddenly decided to hold a referendum and Hatay voted to become part of Turkey.

Syria became independent in 1945 - with Lebanon as a separate state - and refused to recognise Hatay as part of Turkey.

But little was said about it until the conflict in Syria began to draw in President Erdogan and the Turkish armed forces several years ago.

Syrian media began to highlight the suspicious and controversial way Hatay, or Liwa Iskanderoun, was given to the Turks.

In the late 1930s, France was growing increasingly worried about an impending war with Hitler’s Germany and French diplomats were desperately trying to sign up potential allies in Europe and the Middle East.

Ataturk died in 1938 and his successor, Ismet Inonu, was keen to continue his Turkish nationalist fervour.

So when the French suggested a treaty of friendship during the upcoming war, Inonu was willing to accept, on one condition that Turkey recover Hatay.

France agreed, but was technically breaching the Treaty of Lausanne, so in order to give it a fig leaf of respectability, the French suggested a referendum. ​Hatay was at the time a mixture of nationalities - Turks, Turkmen, Sunni Arabs, Alawites (Alevis), Armenians and even some Greeks - with no clear majority, but Ankara is widely believed to have bussed in Turks from other parts of Anatolia and rigged the result of the referendum.

[Cain Marko]

If Turkey were to come to Pakistan's aid in the event of a future Indo-pak conflict, what should be India's response and what are the options that India would have to inflict pain on the Turks?

Say in the event of an Indo-pak conflict, if Turkey were to send say a squadron of F16's with their pilots to take part in conflict, what options would India have, to punish Turkey?

Short of firing off Agni-IV missiles would India have any other military options to punish Turkey? Such an act against India, by any country should not be allowed to pass without retribution. A strong action against a small power like Turkey would send a strong message to countries like China etc., that any direct military meddling in Indo-pak conflicts or any kind of direct military action against India, would evoke a sharp response from India.

Well, for starters India could shred those pesky f16s. Apart from that, there are certain other military options:
1. Arm Syria with prithvi and other stuff
2. If iran provided overflight, a package of MKIs could deliver a few brahmos
3. Use lacms launched via naval assets probably. If Navy assets can make it into the med? Brahmos? Nirbhay?
4. Worst case scenario, use shaurya. And then agni etc...

[g.sarkar]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51687160
Syria war: Turkey says thousands of migrants have crossed to EU
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan says 18,000 migrants have crossed Turkish borders into Europe after the country "opened the doors" for them to travel.
The number is expected to hit 25,000 to 30,000 in the coming days, he said. Turkey could no longer deal with the amount of people fleeing Syria's civil war, he added. Greece says it has blocked thousands of migrants from entering "illegally" from Turkey. Greek authorities fired tear gas to attempt to disperse the crowds.Turkey's decision followed a deadly attack on Turkish troops by Syrian government forces in northern Syria this week.
At least 33 Turkish soldiers were killed in a bombardment in Idlib, the last Syrian province where Syrian rebel groups hold significant territory.
Turkey continued retaliatory strikes on Saturday, killing 26 Syrian government troops with drone strikes, according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a UK-based monitoring group. Syria, supported by Russia, has been trying to retake Idlib from jihadist groups and Turkish-backed rebel factions.
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan says 18,000 migrants have crossed Turkish borders into Europe after the country "opened the doors" for them to travel. The number is expected to hit 25,000 to 30,000 in the coming days, he said. Turkey could no longer deal with the amount of people fleeing Syria's civil war, he added. Greece says it has blocked thousands of migrants from entering "illegally" from Turkey. Greek authorities fired tear gas to attempt to disperse the crowds. Turkey's decision followed a deadly attack on Turkish troops by Syrian government forces in northern Syria this week. At least 33 Turkish soldiers were killed in a bombardment in Idlib, the last Syrian province where Syrian rebel groups hold significant territory. Turkey continued retaliatory strikes on Saturday, killing 26 Syrian government troops with drone strikes, according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a UK-based monitoring group.Syria, supported by Russia, has been trying to retake Idlib from jihadist groups and Turkish-backed rebel factions.
"We said months ago that if it goes on like this, we will have to open the doors. They did not believe us, but we opened the doors yesterday," President Erdogan said in Istanbul on Saturday.
.....
Gautam

[chetak]

and this is what they are demanding in India, that you work and support us.

Turkey has one rule for Muslims and another rule for others as do all Islamic nations

[chetak]

sauce for the turki islamic goose is not sauce for the Indian gander

Tahir Aslam Gora ताहिर गोरा طاہر گورا @TahirGora · Feb 29

Turkey has blocked Internet and social media access after a deadly attack on Turkish soldiers. Would Turkey now understand India’s compulsions to curb Terrorism in Indian Kashmir? But I think the current Turkish regime is highly hipocrite and dictatorial Islamist mindset nature https://twitter.com/cagilkasapoglu/stat ... 2024146944

[vishvak]

"Stolen Province"
..
Treaty of Lausanne, so in order to give it a fig leaf of respectability, the French suggested a referendum. ​Hatay was at the time a mixture of nationalities - Turks, Turkmen, Sunni Arabs, Alawites (Alevis), Armenians and even some Greeks - with no clear majority, but Ankara is widely believed to have bussed in Turks from other parts of Anatolia and rigged the result of the referendum.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatay_Province#History

Read it all, not to mention riots following suggestions of independence/joining with Syria. Then bussing during elections.

Simply winning isn't enough when turk-like or wannabes are around. War makes a country a bit weaker too. Have to choose battles quoting art of war and such.

[mody]

If Turkey were to come to Pakistan's aid in the event of a future Indo-pak conflict, what should be India's response and what are the options that India would have to inflict pain on the Turks?

Say in the event of an Indo-pak conflict, if Turkey were to send say a squadron of F16's with their pilots to take part in conflict, what options would India have, to punish Turkey?

Short of firing off Agni-IV missiles would India have any other military options to punish Turkey? Such an act against India, by any country should not be allowed to pass without retribution. A strong action against a small power like Turkey would send a strong message to countries like China etc., that any direct military meddling in Indo-pak conflicts or any kind of direct military action against India, would evoke a sharp response from India.

Well, for starters India could shred those pesky f16s. Apart from that, there are certain other military options:
1. Arm Syria with prithvi and other stuff
2. If iran provided overflight, a package of MKIs could deliver a few brahmos
3. Use lacms launched via naval assets probably. If Navy assets can make it into the med? Brahmos? Nirbhay?
4. Worst case scenario, use shaurya. And then agni etc...

India would certainly take on the Turkish F16s is the scenario that I have outlined.
But the main question is, what further action should India take? Say if such a conflict were to happen 2-3 years down the road, an emerging global power like India, should certainly not allow something like this to go unchallenged. In our past wars with the pakis, some Arab countries have loaned them military hardware. The arab pilots or troops aren't that good and the pakis had enough manpower. We could not take any action against these countries at the time, due to various reasons.

In the scenario that I have outlined, what can be India's options? We do not have a big economic relationship with Turkey and hence only ecomonic retaliation, will not yield the desired results.
The other options that you have outlined, don't seems very plausible.

1). Syria is firmly under Russian control and at least currently there is an arms embargo on Syria. Selling or gifting ballistic missiles to Syria, will need to be approved by Russia, who might not want to shake the applecart with Turkey too much.
2). Seeking overflight over Iran also seems unlikely. Would also require us to send Su-30MKIs with a refueler, as the Brahmos launch would have to be over western Iran and the planes would then need to come back. Besides, minimum 4-6 Su-30s taking off with a mid air re-fueler, might get detected by paki radars. Also, given that an Indo-Pak conflict would be going on, sparing one of our re-fuelers, might be difficult.
3). Assuming that we have the Nirbhay ready and inducted by then, we might have a Long Range Cruise Missile. However, we would still have to launch the missiles from the red sea, with over flight over Egyptian territory and then overflight over Israeli territorial waters. Even if all of this happens we would have to hope that the Turkish airdefence systems to not shoot down the missiles. Remember, we would be targeting military targets in Turkey, most probably Airforce bases. These will be well defended by airdefence missiles and subsonic cruise missiles might not be able to do much damage. Also, apart from causing damage, we ideally would want to land a tight Thappad on the face of the Turks, to have dared to attack India directly and trying to kill Indian citizens. Naval assets getting to the mediterenean would be very difficult. Indian Frigates or Destoyers going across the Suez canal and into the med, would be easily detected and the element of surprise would be gone. Also, the sailing time from India to med, would be atleast 1 week. The ongoing Indo-pak conflict, may not last that long and if that ends, it would not make any sense for India to do this. Also, would also require a tanker vessel to accompany the Frigates or Destroyers to sail to the med.
Going around Africa to get to the med sea, to avoid the Suez canal would be a non-starter, as the time required would be too long.

The only feasilble options for India to take direct military action against Turkey, would be to use Ballistic missiles. Shaurya, assuming it is available when such a scenario would emerge, would not have the range to reach Turkey, with a 1 ton conventional payload. Minimum Agni-IV would be required.
That gets us to the questions that I had asked in my original post.

1). Would India be able to mate a conventional 1 ton warhead with a Agni-IV missile in a short time (max 24-36 hours) and fire off the missiles?
2). Would India have accurate targeting information for Turkish airforce bases? The base would have to purely Turkish one, with no NATO presence like at Incirlik etc.
3). How accurate would the missile be, to target the airforce base? The accuracy required would be in lower double digit CEP to really cause damage to the base and minimise any collateral damage.
4). How would NATO respond? The charter says an "Attack on One is an Attack on All", however in this case the argument would be that it is Turkey which has foolishly entered into a conflict, it has not business to be part off and hence, any retribution on that count, is Turkey's fault only.
5). How would the US respond? Would the US warn Turkey? Given that there would be an Indo-pak conflict in progress, the US would be monitoring the situation closely. It would surely be able to detect any kind of ballistic missile launch, especially something as big as the Agni-IV. It would also quickly realize from the trajectory and the flight profile, that the missile is going to fly over the paki land mass and go further west. Given that it would be known to everyone by then, that Turkey has sent fighter aircrafts to aid Pakistan, target for ballistic missile further west of Pakistan would only mean Turkey. The flight time of the missile from India to Turkey would be approximately half an hour. Enough time for the US to pickup the hotline and warn Turkey that ballistic missile were on the way.

If the missiles do reach their intended targets and cause widespread damage, like say destroying 30-40 aircrafts on the ground, how would turkey respond? Especially if the Indo-pak conflict does not last very long and conflict ends in say within 1-3 days of Indian action against Turkey, how would Turkey respond. It would not be able to declare war on India and try to wage a war from its own shores.

[g.sarkar]

https://www.npr.org/2020/03/02/81112991 ... -is-closed
Migrants Again Try To Leave Turkey For Europe, But This Time The Gate Is Closed
JOANNA KAKISSIS, March 2, 2020.
Thousands of migrants are lining Turkey's border with Greece, egged on by the Turkish government, which declared last Friday that the path to Europe is open. But as migrants have arrived, they have found the door to the European Union firmly blocked by barbed wire, a rapidly flowing river and riot police armed with tear gas. "Do not attempt to enter Greece illegally, you will be turned back," the Greek prime minister, Kyriakos Mitsotakis, tweeted on Sunday. "The borders of Greece are the external borders of Europe. We will protect them."
Mitsotakis's conservative government sent troops to police the border and said it will refuse to accept new asylum applications for a month, invoking an emergency clause in European treaties allowing it to do so. It also vowed to deport anyone who crossed by land or sea in contravention of European and international law. The Greeks also added patrols along its sea borders in the Aegean Sea and asked the EU's border-patrol agency, Frontex, for reinforcements. On Sunday, a child drowned off the coast of the Aegean island of Lesvos after a migrant boat capsized. "You're not welcome here," Greek authorities told migrants by text message and megaphone. A Greek farm workers association even offered to guard the border with tractors.
The migration issue hasn't been this explosive in Europe since 2015, when the EU took in more than a million asylum-seekers. A 2016 deal between the EU and Turkey drastically reduced the number of arrivals by giving Turkey billions of euros to care for four million migrants there.
......
_____________________________________________________________________________
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... yria-assad
Erdoğan is reaping what he sowed: Turkey is on the brink of disaster in Syria
Simon Tisdall, Mon 2 Mar 2020.
Maverick, out-of-control authoritarian leaders – and here we are talking about Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Turkey’s president – tend to think they know best about everything, and are fiercely intolerant of criticism. It is this hubris that has finally led Erdoğan and Turkey to the brink of disaster in Syria after nine years of bombastic threats, proxy conflict and direct military intervention.
Erdoğan is now isolated on all sides, sharply at odds with other major players in the Syrian crisis. Having sent an extra 7,000 troops and armour into Idlib last month to reinforce existing military outposts, Turkey has plunged in open warfare with Bashar al-Assad’s regime. It has attacked airports and radar sites well behind the de facto “frontline”. It has declared all regime “elements” to be legitimate targets.
In mid-2011, when the Arab spring uprisings were just getting going, Ahmet Davutoğlu, then Turkey’s foreign minister, met Assad in Damascus and urged him to discuss the demonstrators’ demands. Assad refused. Davutoğlu later told me the Syrian leader just wouldn’t listen. The chance was lost. As Assad’s crackdown intensified, Erdoğan threw Turkey’s weight behind the rebels, including Islamist groups.
But what is happening now in north-west Syria is no longer a proxy war. It is a direct confrontation between the two heavily armed neighbouring states. And it threatens to draw Turkey deeper into military conflict with Russia, Assad’s principal ally. Erdoğan’s spokespeople and the pro-government media continue to suggest that last Thursday’s debacle, when 33 Turkish soldiers were killed in an attack on their convoy in Idlib, was the fault of the Syrian regime.
It’s hard to know the facts, given Erdoğan’s suppression of independent journalism. But the truth seems to be very different. The death toll may have totalled up to 55, according to Metin Gurcan, a military analyst writing for the respected online regional platform al-Monitor. Local reports speak of up to 100 dead. It also seems likely the majority of the deaths were caused not by Syrian jets but by deliberate, follow-up Russian airstrikes.
Erdoğan has declined to blame Russia, and the Kremlin has flatly denied responsibility. But the sequence of events last Thursday, which began with Turkish attacks on Russian aircraft flying over southern Idlib, suggests otherwise. The Turkish fire, involving man-portable air-defence systems (Manpads), also threatened Russia’s strategic Khmeimim base.
.........
Gautam

[Rony]

Desist from commenting on India's internal affairs: New Delhi tells Turkey

India on Thursday asked Pakistan's close ally, Turkey, to refrain from commenting on the internal affairs of the country and also cautioned Ankara against encouraging cross-border terrorism.

India's reaction came after Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan Thursday criticised the country after communal riots in Delhi left at least 38 people dead.

"I can but only advise the Turkey to refrain from commenting on the internal affairs of India and develop a better understanding of the democratic practices," First Secretary at India's Permanent Mission Vimarsh Aryan said while exercising the right of reply after Pakistan raised concerns over human rights in Jammu and Kashmir at the 43rd Session of the Human Rights Council here.

"I also caution them not to encourage cross-border terrorism," Aryan said.

Turkey has been backing Pakistan on the Kashmir issue and President Erdogan has angered India by raising the issue at the UN General Assembly. He has also criticised the Citizenship (Amendment) Act.

"India right now has become a country where massacres are widespread. What massacres? Massacres of Muslims. By who? Hindus," AFP quoted Erdogan as saying during a speech in Ankara after violence broke out this week in Delhi between Hindus and Muslims over the amended citizenship law.

Erdogan, a devout Muslim, sees himself as a defender of Islam, often taking public stands on issues concerning the faith and its followers, the AFP report noted.

[Rony]

Keeping pro-Pak Turkey on tenterhooks

During my stint as the consul at Ankara’s Indian embassy from 2008 to 2011, I saw a lot being achieved by heads of the mission, such as Ramindar Jassal, in terms of considerably improved Indo-Turkish ties. Traditionally sympathetic to Pakistan’s cause, especially on Kashmir, the Turks had begun to see India in a different light. Our western neighbour had been smart enough over the years to make the Turks think that their country’s Muslim citizens were responsible for the considerable monetary and help in kind — gold ornaments galore, I believe — that flowed from unpartitioned India into Turkey to help with their Caliphate ambitions. Some deft diplomatic work by our mission staff managed to convince the Turks about the correctness of history and this, perhaps, contributed in some measure to the rising esteem of India in the minds of the hardy Turks.

The large number of yoga centres all around Turkey and the increased trade and cultural ties between the two countries were testimony to this. The K-word was avoided generally by them, though once in a while, there was a penchant to show their concern in favour of Pakistan, such as in a seminar organised in Istanbul by Dr Ghulam Nabi Fai of the Kashmir Action Council, which I managed to attend furtively, where Turkish officials tended to show their sympathy for the Kashmiris.

Schools run by Fateullah Gulen and promoted by the Indo-Turkish Business Association prospered in major Indian cities like Bengaluru and Hyderabad and things were looking rosy, indeed, between the two countries. But all in a short span of time recently, commencing with Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s little stunt at the UN General Assembly last year, and then his recent utterances in Islamabad comparing Kashmir to Gallipoli, have turned the tide for Erdogan.

Meanwhile, Turkey and Russia have reached a breaking point in their Syrian standoff. Amid his military operations against Russia-backed Syrian troops, Erdogan finds himself having to backtrack on his earlier anti-West and anti-NATO stand, almost pleading for help from the Americans and other erstwhile NATO allies, such as France and Germany. Large-scale refugee efflux from Syria into Turkey and the impending rout of their own sponsored rebels at the hands of the Syrian National Army is what has turned the tables on the Turkish President.

Anyway, like they say, pride goes before a fall. His Neo-Ottoman ambitions are dealing a severe blow to the Islamist leader who recently promoted himself to presidency after over a decade as the prime minister and a stint as Istanbul mayor. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk must be turning in his grave to see his vision of a modern and progressive Turkey turned as under by the highly Islam-leaning Erdogan. And to top it all, his AKP has lost the Istanbul mayorship to the opposition in what could be a sign of grim days ahead for a strong tough leader who brooked no opposition or dissent politically.

His targeting of mediapersons not on his side is legion. Some of my journalist friends have, unfortunately, found themselves at the wrong end of the establishment’s stick. And it’s not that Erdogan is a benevolent dictator. Stories about his corruption, including oil deals for his son-in-law, abound in a saga of tremendous economic well-being for Turkey to its heavily sanctioned plight now with a crashing lira against the dollar.

Turkey had recently signed a deal with the Russians for the S-400 Triumph SAMs which have arrived in the country and are scheduled to be operational by June. Now, he has requested the US to give him the Patriot missile system to counter the Russian air power being unleashed at his forward troops. The Americans, of course, would not sleep over this one bit as they would now be able to twist the Turks to toe their line militarily and politically. Turkey already finds itself out of the F-35 co-production deal with the Americans over the S400 deal and the diplomatic fiasco against an American preacher in Turkey. Now, the Russians would expectedly renege on the S-400 deal, their long-term interests being with Syria’s Assad and access to the warm water ports in his country’s Mediterranean coast.

India could have had some cooperation with the Turks on the S-400 as we are on the verge of acquiring the same system ourselves. The Americans were also hoping to rope in India on the F-35 project in place of Turkey. But this could falter on account of the fact that the Americans are likely to hold any prospective Patriot deal against a reentry for Turkey into the foregone project and the linked spare manufacture deal. Turkey’s aeronautical industry being robust and capable, this is not something the Americans would be averse to.

On the whole, therefore, the Turks are in dire straits. While they would continue to be a thorn in the flesh for us in India, thanks to their Islamist pro-Pakistan posturing, they would lose out on valuable trade deals with India, such as the called-off maritime vessel deal worth around $2 billion. India has turned the screw further on Turkey by way of its recent overtures to the Cypriots and the Armenians to castigate Turkey for its behaviour in Pakistan and at the UN.

But all said and done, Turkey is not a country to make enemies with. Let’s not forget that Babur was a Turk and some Turks still nurse ambitions of that lost glory. The Turkish Ambassador to India a while ago, Burak Akcapar, half jokingly told me at a chance meeting in New Delhi that Turkey had a presence in Delhi since the 15th century, alluding to the reign of Babur. [Note: The soft spoken Group captain could have replied back that this is BS. Babur was Turkic from Uzbekistan, not a Turk from Turkey. Central Asian Turks consider Turkish turks as Leventines, not Turks. Besides, Hindu influence have presence in Turkey dating back to Pre-Turkic, Pre-Greek 1400 BC Mittani times]. When I had met the then Prime Minister Erdogan at a reception in Ankara, little did I realise that his profile would be that of a shooting star.

But then, that’s what happens to anyone who crosses swords with the only superpower in the world. It’s a matter of time before Turkey finds itself even more marginalised within Europe and NATO. India, with its steady upward vector in global power politics, would still have the last laugh.

[Rony]

Turkey & Subcontinent

Ancient India’s connection with Anatolia dates back to the Vedic era (1000 BC). The rich cultural exchanges continuing till the Mughal-Ottoman empires. Modern history is replete with cordial engagements around Dr MA Ansari’s famous mission to Turkey, the Khilafat movement and above all, India’s principled support towards Turkey’s war of independence.

Mahatma Gandhi had openly taken a stand against injustices on Turkey, during the First World War. However post-independence, the civilisational bonhomie had encountered the contretemps of the new global order and ‘blocs’. Turkey was part of CENTO (Central Treaty Organisation) that was ideologically opposed to the Soviet ‘bloc’, towards which India was predisposed.

Co-religiousity, Cold War sensibilities and military regimes in Islamabad and Ankara, ensured a more-than cordial relationship between the two nations, to the occasional chagrin of India. Turkey had issued a rare communique in favour of Pakistan after the 1965 Indo-Pak war and subsequently supplied armaments to the depleted Pakistani armoury. The 1971 IndoPak war was no different; Turkey was among the last countries to recognise Bangladesh. Turkey’s continued support to Pakistan had even led to the withdrawal of its ambassador from Dhaka in 2016, when the authorities in Bangladesh had executed Jamaat-e-Islami leaders convicted of horrific crimes in the Liberation War.

Re-imagining and projecting itself as the most progressive and powerful Islamic nation at the forefront of Ummah (Islamic world), Ankara has tactically supported Islamabad to burnish its own emerging leadership ambitions, with the implied undercurrents of dislodging Saudi Arabia from such a leadership position. Psychologically, the flipflop in the Pakistani narrative of getting inspired from more overtly secular moorings to veering towards abject religiousity has often seen Kemal Ataturk emerge as the reference leader for many Pakistanis, most notably the former President, Pervez Musharraf. Today, the overt Islamisation of Turkish society with the emergence of Recep Erdogan-led Islamist party, Justice and Development Party (AKP) has found enhanced traction, emotions and gravitation with Pakistan’s own confused and diluted secularity of the past.

Both nations are also at the crossroad of balancing their historical and fractured ties with the United States, which affords a common belligerence and ‘voice’ against the Western powers that enables them to adopt heroic postures within the Ummah, and especially amongst the electoral constituents. With much in common and the possibilities of a realpolitik win-win situation emerging from supporting each other, Turkey has emerged as amongst the staunchest supporters of Pakistan in the United Nations and other fora.

Affluent Arab allies like Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates are increasingly ‘balancing’ their act in favour of India, in the deeply hyphenated Indo-Pak realm. Pakistan is reciprocating the Turkish delight as it urges Turkey to counter-leverage the embarrassing ‘abandonment’ by Arab Sheikhdoms, by joining hands with the avowedly anti-Saudi bloc that includes Turkey, Qatar, Iran and Malaysia. The metamorphosis from a religio-psycho-cultural bond to a more tangible and strategic diplomatic-economic joinstmanship in the Pak-Turk realm has been unmistakably, accelerated.

This has led President Erdogan to renege on the spirit of his statement on a visit to India in 2017 ~ “Turkey will always be by the side of India in full solidarity while battling terrorism”, with the unquestionable context of the source of ‘terrorism’ in India being, Pakistan. Turkey has had a complicated relationship with terrorism, where it has attacked the Kurdish militia and sided with some other extremist militias in the Syrian battleground. Turkey has also shown belligerence against Saudi, US interests and often taken contrarian positions, sparing no effort to embarrass Riyadh in the Khashoggi affair. The churning in the Middle East with no clear winners in sight, has offered an opportunity to Turkey to cobble together an alternate bloc composed of ‘unnaturals’ (e.g. Iran, Qatar, Malaysia, Pakistan etc.) that could rival the Saudi Arabian stranglehold over the Ummah via institutions like OIC (Organisation of Islamic Cooperation).

Open provocation to undo past equations, tenor and positions has been the preferred Turkish strategy. On a recent visit to Pakistan, Erdogan has stirred the hornet’s nest and gratuitously obliged Islamabad on the contentious issue of Kashmir, especially since Pakistan is struggling to bankroll sympathisers to its position. Erdogan’s words in Islamabad were both calculated and short ~ “Events that happened a hundred years ago in Çanakkale in Turkey are being repeated in Indian-occupiedKashmir (sic) and Turkey will continue to raise its voice against the oppression.” Islamabad lapped up the rare endorsement of its position and Delhi rightfully summoned the Turkish Ambassador for a verbal demarche.

India referred to the recent Turkish enthusiasm to take unwarranted interest in the internal affairs of other countries by stating, “This recent episode is but one more example of a pattern of Turkey interfering in the internal affairs of other countries. India finds that completely unacceptable.” Turkey is an old hat in charming Pakistan with churlish initiatives like naming the road on which the Indian Embassy in Ankara is situated as Cinnah Caddesi i.e. Indian Embassy on Jinnah Road! The power struggle within the Ummah and Turkey’s ambition to assume a leadership role will require it to play along with Pakistan’s sensitivities and necessities, and the recent tilt and statements are part of that gameplan.

While the Indo-Turk trade is not insignificant at $7.8 billion (2019), it is still less than $18 billion with Malaysia, which too had sullied the relationship with India on Kashmir, and incurred Delhi’s wrath. It is important to recognise that unlike the Middle Eastern theatre which is contiguous to Turkish borders and direct interests, pandering to Pakistani urgency is realpolitik and reflective of the carefully calibrated, Turkish chessboard moves. India must call Turkey’s bluff and hypocrisy on terrorism, as it will remain contextually linked to Pakistan’s own incorrigibility, duplicity and infamy.

There are no major counter-levers available to Delhi on Ankara’s latest provocation other than sticking to its own principled stance, issuing diplomatic demarches and waiting for the inevitable Pakistani mis-step and disrepute. [Note : Wrong. India can reply to Turkey in the language it understand. India can talk about Kurdish aspirations, Invite separatist minded Kurdish students to Indian universities, Joint exercises with Greece, Israel and Cyprus in Eastern Mediterranean, kick out shitty Turkish airlines and other Turkish companies from Indian market]

[mody]

Cosying up to the Kurds or Kurdish cause is not a very good idea. Though Turkey has the most problems with Kurds, all the other countries with significant Kurdish population, will not appreciate any Indian pro-Kurdish moves. This includes Iraq, Syria, Iran and Armenia.
We have historically have had good relations with Iraq and Syria. India had good relations with Iraq during Saddams' days and thereafter as well. Same with Syria. Relations with Armenia are improving. It would be better to offer and sell arms to countries like Iraq, Syria and Armenia. This would rile the Turks. The recent news of Swathi radar being chosen by Armenia is a good start. Syria and Iraq being able to respond in the future to any Turkish incursions in their territory would be welcome.

But the fact remains, that as of today, due to limited economic and trade relations, we do not have too many levers against the turks. Kicking out Turkish airline and reducing tourism to Turkey would be small steps.

[chetak]

Cosying up to the Kurds or Kurdish cause is not a very good idea. Though Turkey has the most problems with Kurds, all the other countries with significant Kurdish population, will not appreciate any Indian pro-Kurdish moves. This includes Iraq, Syria, Iran and Armenia.
We have historically have had good relations with Iraq and Syria. India had good relations with Iraq during Saddams' days and thereafter as well. Same with Syria. Relations with Armenia are improving. It would be better to offer and sell arms to countries like Iraq, Syria and Armenia. This would rile the Turks. The recent news of Swathi radar being chosen by Armenia is a good start. Syria and Iraq being able to respond in the future to any Turkish incursions in their territory would be welcome.

But the fact remains, that as of today, due to limited economic and trade relations, we do not have too many levers against the turks. Kicking out Turkish airline and reducing tourism to Turkey would be small steps.

erdogan's daughter owns celebi, the airport ground services operator in some big Indian airports.

[Vikas]

Why India has to react to anything by Turkey on today basis. Wait for the right opportunity and give them a swift kick between the legs. Not every insult has to be avenged on the same day.
History and Geography always give opportunity, It will be for the Indian Govt to utilize it as and when it comes.

PS: Mohandas was obsessed with anything Islamic so can be ignored.

[ranjan.rao]

Kicking out Turkish airline and reducing tourism to Turkey would be small steps.

kicking out is the nuclear option..our famed babudom can make life hell by throwing rulebook at anyone. follow the rulebook in letter and spririt, fine them if found guilty and then let them have a taste of indian courts. It would be good fun for them and any businessmen to see how meticulous indians could be. Might remind them of days when British Indian army ended the ottoman empire..

[ldev]

India's fight should be with Erdogan and his AKP Party not with the general Turkish population. That country is deeply divided down the middle with roughly 50% of the population completely against Erdogan's Islamic agenda. The last mayoral elections went against the AKP. But there is no point in knee jerk reactions such as kicking out Turkish airlines, which will alienate the rest of the Turkish population which is anti Erdogan

[Vikas]

How do you fight crazy Erdogan and not alienate Turks ?
Isn't that a oxymoronic chimera to chase ? Anyways days of pleasing subjects of a state that has become hostile should be over. The idiot in Ankara and morons in Tehran don't ever care about such niceties.

[Rony]

India's fight should be with Erdogan and his AKP Party not with the general Turkish population. That country is deeply divided down the middle with roughly 50% of the population completely against Erdogan's Islamic agenda. The last mayoral elections went against the AKP. But there is no point in knee jerk reactions such as kicking out Turkish airlines, which will alienate the rest of the Turkish population which is anti Erdogan

Kemalists in Turkey are also Pro-Paki and anti-India. They are the Turkish version of Paki RAPE. They hate Islamists internally but have no problem in using them in Syria. Their grouse with Erdogan is that he is making deals with Russia instead of marching straight to Damascus. If anything, they are even more nationalist than Erdogan. When it comes to India-Pakistan, both Islamists and Kemalists have same policy. If i am not wrong, It was Kemalists who intentionally named the road in Ankara where Indian embassy is located as Cinnah Caddesi /Jinnah road to spite India and appease Pakis long before AKP came to power.

[RKumar]

India's fight should be with Erdogan and his AKP Party not with the general Turkish population. That country is deeply divided down the middle with roughly 50% of the population completely against Erdogan's Islamic agenda. The last mayoral elections went against the AKP. But there is no point in knee jerk reactions such as kicking out Turkish airlines, which will alienate the rest of the Turkish population which is anti Erdogan

As a nation you deal with their leaders and impacted by their actions. They do represent their people and if one leadership after next is anti India, it’s should be clear it is not an exception but norm. If it is a norm then people are also against India and there must not be any doubt. If there is still slight doubt then someone is not thinking straight and not fit to hold high public seat. But I know many old hats and ober liberals are ready to ignore the facts n live in fantasy world.

[ldev]

India's fight should be with Erdogan and his AKP Party not with the general Turkish population. That country is deeply divided down the middle with roughly 50% of the population completely against Erdogan's Islamic agenda. The last mayoral elections went against the AKP. But there is no point in knee jerk reactions such as kicking out Turkish airlines, which will alienate the rest of the Turkish population which is anti Erdogan

Kemalists in Turkey are also Pro-Paki and anti-India. They are the Turkish version of Paki RAPE. They hate Islamists internally but have no problem in using them in Syria. Their grouse with Erdogan is that he is making deals with Russia instead of marching straight to Damascus. If anything, they are even more nationalist than Erdogan. When it comes to India-Pakistan, both Islamists and Kemalists have same policy. If i am not wrong, It was Kemalists who intentionally named the road in Ankara where Indian embassy is located as Cinnah Caddesi /Jinnah road to spite India and appease Pakis long before AKP came to power.

The Kemalist's beef with India is that India took part in the Galipoli attack against them, even if used as cannon fodder by the British and it is the nationalist spirit within them which responded. What I am saying is that the Kemalist's or their modern day successors will be open to an equitable relationship with India. Erdogan and the AKP on the other hand are Muslim Brotherhood and reflexively hostile to all non Muslims. From India's viewpoint it does not help that the Muslim Brotherhood is at loggerheads with the Gulf Arabs but the choice is clear, India has far more at stake with the Gulf Arabs than Turkey. However, if the Kemalists come back to power then they will repair relations with the Gulf Arabs and so it brings me back to the point that India should not have a knee jerk reaction to Turkey's current hostile stance.

I believe that the popular belief that the Turks are nothing more than TFTA Pakis is wrong. It is a nation that has never been under foreign control since the dawn of the Ottoman Empire and over the centuries it has fought with the Russian empire, the Greek empire, the Iranian empire, basically all of it's neighbors and survived as an independent entity. That does count for something, that they have not been colonized.

[kit]

Colonization happened because riches of India was fabled and looking back at old fiction literature ., the mere mention of India conjures up unimaginable wealth in gold , diamonds, spices and silk ( also access to China ) , the whites literally lusted after this wealth, with stories abounding in how the kings lived and their palaces and retinue., just a matter of fact that Columbus set off to find India and not Turkey !! ., why bother to colonize something that had no real value, Turkeys only significance even now is its geographical location. Happy to be corrected. Also why is the west still so fixated on India and not much on china other than "business"

[Rony]

The Kemalist's beef with India is that India took part in the Galipoli attack against them, even if used as cannon fodder by the British and it is the nationalist spirit within them which responded.

The troops which participated in Galipoli came from all of Indian subcontinent including Pakis. But Kemalists hate India but appease Pakis. Does not add up. For some reason the Turks, both Kemalists and Islamists are reflexively Pro-Paki and anti-Indian.

[ramana]

For some reason the Turks, both Kemalists and Islamists are reflexively Pro-Paki and anti-Indian.

And that is Islam.

[Roop]

For some reason the Turks, both Kemalists and Islamists are reflexively Pro-Paki and anti-Indian.

"For some reason"?!! Isn't it obvious what that "some reason" is?

[ldev]

The Kemalist's beef with India is that India took part in the Galipoli attack against them, even if used as cannon fodder by the British and it is the nationalist spirit within them which responded.

The troops which participated in Galipoli came from all of Indian subcontinent including Pakis. But Kemalists hate India but appease Pakis. Does not add up. For some reason the Turks, both Kemalists and Islamists are reflexively Pro-Paki and anti-Indian.

The Kemalists do not appease Pakis, rather it is the Pakis who appease Turkey, both the Kemalists and the Muslim Brotherhood. And the Pakis have disclaimed all responsibility for participating in Galipoli saying that they did not make the decision to participate but in fact carved out a separate country for themselves precisely because they did not agree with things like the Galipoli attack. They have welshed out and the Turks felt flattered with Paki obsequisousness . There was also the shared membership of CENTO, the common enemy being the former USSR. And India was of course also, although technically non-aligned, in reality had foreign policies were closely aligned with the USSR rather than the West.

Mustafa Kemal did try very hard to get rid of the Arabic/Islamic influence in the country. Polygamy was banned, the script was changed from Arabic to Roman, headscarves were banned for women, men forced to wear western attire, the weekend changed from Thursday-Friday to Saturday-Sunday. But 50 years after all this was enacted into law, when Turkey applied for membership of the EU, it's membership application process was put into cold storage and Greece always cast a perennial veto. Turkey applied for membership before the dissolution of the East Bloc. Today virtually every country in the East Bloc has become an EU member but not Turkey.

The feeling within country, correctly, was that the sole reason for refusal was because it is a Muslim country. This rejection by the EU disillusioned many former pro western Turks and made the rise of Erdogan and the AKP inevitable. For the average Turk on the streets of Istanbul, India does not even register on the radar.

[Vikas]

Turkey too is not even a blip on Indian radar till they decided to up the ante and act like a street dog.
As I had suggested earlier, get a Kurdish conference going on in Delhi and make few statements about selling arms to Assad or about Armenian genocide, Turks will soon be having only India on their radar.

Stealth Frenemies like Erdogan and Crazy Mullahs of Iran must be paid back in their own coin.

[Vips]

Turkey has already agreed to give porkistan corvettes, upgrade its submarines by even defying France and now wants to supply attack helicopters so India should return the favor by supplying some force multipliers to Syria, Armenia, Greece and Cyprus to put pressure from all sides of the border. Some 'moral support' to Kurd's would also effectively put an end to Turkey's tourism sector which contributes substantially to its GDP. Within no time Turkey can be an economic basket case if India has the guts to do it.

[Rony]

The Kemalists do not appease Pakis, rather it is the Pakis who appease Turkey, both the Kemalists and the Muslim Brotherhood. And the Pakis have disclaimed all responsibility for participating in Galipoli saying that they did not make the decision to participate but in fact carved out a separate country for themselves precisely because they did not agree with things like the Galipoli attack. They have welshed out and the Turks felt flattered with Paki obsequisousness.

The appeasement is from both sides. Pakis appeasing Turks and Turks appeasing Pakis. India too did not made a decision to participate in Galipoli and Kemalists know that too. But they choose to go with the Pakis and hate Indians. Its like how Indian seculars know that Muslims start the riots and Hindus are mostly passive victims but choose to potray Muslims are victims and Hindus as aggressors.

There could be also another reason why the Turks are appeasing Pakis. Turks have eyes on Paki nukes and hoping that Pakis might share some nuke technology like they did with Iran before. Also since the Gulf Arabs are now turning to India there is a shared interest between Paki and Turki (and Irani) to come out as a block with China being the overall master. That is also the reason why Kemalists really dont mind the Chinese oppression of uighurs and de-islamizing them while they make a hue and cry about Kashmir and Indian muslims.

[ldev]

There could be also another reason why the Turks are appeasing Pakis. Turks have eyes on Paki nukes and hoping that Pakis might share some nuke technology like they did with Iran before. Also since the Gulf Arabs are now turning to India there is a shared interest between Paki and Turki (and Irani) to come out as a block with China being the overall master. That is also the reason why Kemalists really dont mind the Chinese oppression of uighurs and de-islamizing them while they make a hue and cry about Kashmir and Indian muslims.

Bolded part is very true. Wasn't there a story sometime in the last 12-18 months about "the Sultan" wanting to cooperate with India on nuke matters?? India rebuffed that cooperation and I am sure that is a significant reason for his hostile attitude since.....

In the meantime some fun and games in the Turkish Parliament yesterday. Pro and anti Erdogan members having a brawl over Turkey's Syria policy:

[vishvak]

Turkey too is not even a blip on Indian radar till..

We should have policy wrt geopolitics and not Turk specific. Like reinforcing Syria on humanitarian grounds with diplomatic relations sorted out.

India rebuffed that cooperation and I am sure that is a significant reason for his hostile attitude since.....

Maan yaa naa maan.. main tera mehmaan..
Any country can have hostile attitude that way. But within that it's just religious brotherhood.

Pro and anti Erdogan members having a brawl

At least someone is fighting even in parliament from some perspective.

[Philip]

Strengthening relations with Syria non-militarily,as it would impinge upon our excellent relationship with Israel.Assad is the legitimate ruler of Syria and a decade of a US/Western conspiracy to effect regime change also using Arab despots and Islamic jihadis of the worst kind like ISIS have not only come a cropper but spectacularly backfired with the vast multitude of Syrian refugees who've invaded Europe! In fact it is the so-called " Christian" Europe that is endangered by the Islamic hordes who are flexing their ungodly muscles ,demanding regime change!

The would-be Sultan,pretender to the neo- Ottoman empire,flexing his muscles even to N.Africa, who is increasingly tightening the noose around his own neck. His troops' backsides were burnt to a coal by Putin's warplanes in a none-too gentle reminder as to who is calling the shots today in the ME/ West Asia.

[tandav]

May be a first shot across the Turkish Bow via support to Armenia

https://www.janes.com/article/94723/arm ... from-india

[schinnas]

We can extend CAA to include persecuted religious minorities from Turkey and Iran. Since CAA is only for those who entered the country before 2014, it wouldn't have a real impact but enemies of Iran and Turkey will support CAA now. Would cause great takleef to Turkey and Iran backstabbers.

[Vips]

How Turkey tries to push Porkis and Bangladeshi's into Greece to change the demographics in EU.

[vishvak]

There is a bigger problem of underground gangs defrauding (a mild word for loot plunder) asylum seekers and passing off pretenders but all the beard growing won't make a difference .. EU seems to have realised that a little. Which is where a big problem is to sort out before making drastic sudden policy changes.

[schinnas]

How come Turkey doesn't have many COVID19 infections when all its neighbor's report huge numbers?

[Rony]

Only 1 Case ? Turkey's Coronavirus Coverup Is A Disaster Waiting To Happen

[schinnas]

I wonder why India didnt cancel flights to Turkey. The recent techie who was infected came via Turkey Istanbul airport.