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Vivek K wrote:Totally agree - IN should give up buying in bulk - rather order in 5s - 5 29ks, 5 Su-33s, 5 NLCA, 5 F-18, 5 F-35 (5 F-14s are kosher too), 5 Gripen Navy, 5 Rafale Navy . In this way they can counter anything - Russian/Chinese/Amreeki/Agrezi.
Can we also get a fighter with three engines? When it flies with one engine, it will be a single engine fighter. When it flies with two engines, it will become a twin engine fighter and when it flies with three engines....you get the idea
Jokes aside....any F-35 purchase (for IN or IAF) is more than a decade away. A lot of geopolitical goals have to be checked off, before such a discussion can even start. And who knows what the situation will be in 10 years.
Vivek K wrote:Totally agree - IN should give up buying in bulk - rather order in 5s - 5 29ks, 5 Su-33s, 5 NLCA, 5 F-18, 5 F-35 (5 F-14s are kosher too), 5 Gripen Navy, 5 Rafale Navy . In this way they can counter anything - Russian/Chinese/Amreeki/Agrezi.
Actually the Navy does this as as a matter of procedure. Look at it's acquisitions of surface combatants. Especially homemade ones. Ditto with the IAF and Tejas, netra, Astra. Of course the mod itself is a master at it.
I think this must be in consideration of you Vivek Saar, so that ju can have a reason for for long time to come...
Vivek K wrote:Totally agree - IN should give up buying in bulk - rather order in 5s - 5 29ks, 5 Su-33s, 5 NLCA, 5 F-18, 5 F-35 (5 F-14s are kosher too), 5 Gripen Navy, 5 Rafale Navy . In this way they can counter anything - Russian/Chinese/Amreeki/Agrezi.
Actually the Navy does this as as a matter of procedure. Look at it's acquisitions of surface combatants. Especially homemade ones. Ditto with the IAF and Tejas, netra, Astra. Of course the mod itself is a master at it.
I think this must be in consideration of you Vivek Saar, so that ju can have a reason for for long time to come...
Are you seriously comparing procurement of Surface combatants to ACs and even then technically there is only 3 main designs P-15 (Delhi, Kolkata and P-15b), P-17 (Shivalik and P-17A) and Talwar (The 4th main design would have been family of Corvettes based on P-28 but due to cost that never came about).
PS: These "CW relics" are not legacy birds.Blackjacks are being newly built,legacy ones as well as Backfires completly modernised and upgraded too. There are sev. dozen Backfires around. Acquiring the F-35 makes sense if we fix the money and build our 4 amphibs,but these appear to have been shelved along with CV-3 for lack of money.There are over 200+ helos that require replacement.Naval utility helos to replace Chetaks, Sea King replacements for ASW duties aboard our principal warships and the 24+ Romeos for the carriers,etc.Ru Ka-28s are being upgraded and some new KA-31AEW helos acquired for the AEW role.
These requirements are long overdue and we should see some movement on the same later this year.
Cain Marko wrote:
Actually the Navy does this as as a matter of procedure. Look at it's acquisitions of surface combatants. Especially homemade ones. Ditto with the IAF and Tejas, netra, Astra. Of course the mod itself is a master at it.
I think this must be in consideration of you Vivek Saar, so that ju can have a reason for for long time to come...
Are you seriously comparing procurement of Surface combatants to ACs and even then technically there is only 3 main designs P-15 (Delhi, Kolkata and P-15b), P-17 (Shivalik and P-17A) and Talwar (The 4th main design would have been family of Corvettes based on P-28 but due to cost that never came about).
Point about the P-28s.A smaller multi- role corvette of arounfd 2000t to 2250t should be built in series which would have for ASW,an ASW med. helo,TTs,an MBU and TAS. 8 SSMs/ ASWMs in UVM cells ,30mm gatlings, SAMs in VLS cells and a 76mm main gun. Depending upon the task the missile silos could pack BMos- NG anti- ship or Klub anti-sub missiles. Extra automation will bring down crew and ship sizes .These corvettes if built in large number- around 12 to 16, would be able to do better than our NOPVs when thezsitu demands and avoid sending in a frontline surface warship, DDG/ FFG.
Philip wrote:PS: These "CW relics" are not legacy birds.Blackjacks are being newly built,legacy ones as well as Backfires completly modernised and upgraded too. There are sev. dozen Backfires around. Acquiring the F-35 makes sense if we fix the money and build our 4 amphibs,but these appear to have been shelved along with CV-3 for lack of money.There are over 200+ helos that require replacement.Naval utility helos to replace Chetaks, Sea King replacements for ASW duties aboard our principal warships and the 24+ Romeos for the carriers,etc.Ru Ka-28s are being upgraded and some new KA-31AEW helos acquired for the AEW role.
These requirements are long overdue and we should see some movement on the same later this year.
No amount of modernization is going to change the fact these are quite hard to maintain and operate. A quick google search reveals 3 Tu-22m have crash landed in last 2 years which is terrible track record given what maybe 40 or so of them (wiki lists 63 which doesn’t seem correct)are in operational conditions.
Their sensor suite is quite dated, Soviet plan was to send dozens of them at US carrier fleets, india would lucky to even get 6 of them and double lucky even if we can get 3 of them in working conditions at a given time. So they would need Su-30mki escort for any AShW strike missions (unless you want them to get shot down by Chinese flankers). If you are doing that just as well use Su-30mki with Brahmos and call it day..
Enough and more in the IN td. as to their relevance today.Read the USNI report.
Anyway, the shrinking IN def. budget from 18% in 2012 down to only 13% has affected its growth plans of fielding a 200 ship navy by 2026. There is no way that a 3rd. carrier will arrive anywhere before 2035 at this rate. Budget blues have forced the delay in the new naval home for the IAC-1 at Vizag,so the plan now is to station the carrier at Katupalli,L&T's shipyard . An annual sum of 40cr. for 8 years is reportedly being agreed upon. At a time when the PLAN is expanding so massively, outstripping the IN in numbers of major combatants annually built, it's sad to see the situ as of now.Another hint is that the 4 amphibs may be cut down to 2 modest vessels. KA- 31 AEW helos are to be cut from 10 to 6 as well and the MCM orders still playing out for just 6+.Tough times aheađ".
India is fast-tracking negotiations to acquire 10 Russian-made Kamov Ka-31 'Helix' airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) helicopters in time for the expected commissioning in 2021 of Vikrant , the Indian Navy's (IN's) indigenously designed aircraft carrier.
Official sources told Jane's on 20 March that the IN wants to "imminently" finalise the Ka-31 import, which was approved by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in May 2019 for an estimated INR36 billion (USD478.8 million), given that up to four of the AEW&C platforms are expected to be embarked on the 37,750-tonne carrier.
IN officers said Vikrant aims to field its full air complement of Russian-made MiG-29K/KUB 'Fulcrum' fighters and rotary-wing platforms by 2022.
https://twitter.com/arunp2810/status/12 ... 23616?s=20 ---> The first & the last COs of Sea Harrier Squadron; 33 years apart. Young Commander Shikuraj had set his sights on my job as a 7-yr old in Yeovilton where his father, Lieutenant Commander Pillai was a radar specialist in the squadron. Some resolve!!
The Sikorsky MH-60R Seahawk maritime helicopters ordered by India will be built to the latest Saudi Arabian configuration, with some additional national-specific modifications.
The new initial Indian baseline standard was disclosed on the US government's beta.sam.gov website on 24 March, in which it was noted that the 24 helicopters recently ordered by the Indian government will be built to the same configuration as the 10 helicopters received by the Royal Saudi Naval Forces (RSNF), with some "unique modifications" also included.
The RSNF MH-60Rs that were delivered from September 2018 are of a similar anti-surface vessel warfare (ASuW) and anti-submarine warfare (ASW) standard to the latest helicopters flying with the US Navy (USN), including AN/AAS-44C(V) multi-spectral targeting systems, AN/AVS-9 night-vision goggles, AN/SSQ-36/53/62 sonobuoys, Raytheon MK 54 torpedoes, and crew-served weapons.
The RNSF standard that will form the baseline configuration for the Indian Navy (IN) adds the Lockheed Martin AGM-114R Hellfire II air-to-surface missile and BAE Systems Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (APKWS) which, while integrated by the USN, are not typically carried.
While the sole-source contract notification did not provide details of the Indian national-specific modifications, Jane's previously reported that the IN is to fit its MH-60R helicopters with the Kongsberg Naval Strike Missile (becoming the first country to fit any helicopter with the anti-ship missile). Other national modifications will likely comprise communications and other such equipment.
No,the KA-31s are shipborne.Land based fixed wing platforms would give better range,endurance,etc. Our Netras are better,desi AEW radar too. Larger platforms like IL-476s for AWACS,A-300s being examined but v.expensive,I think around $250-300M a pop. Fat chance at the current moment. Reg.Romeo's ASMs, I thought we had plentiful stocks of Harpoons,Harpoonskis,etc. and didn't need a new AShM.
For a short ranged ASM,meant to take out fast craft,etc., a desi one could've easily been developed from the Nag programme.Hellfire class of missiles in any case will be insufficient to take out major surface combatants.With stealth, the radar return of a large warship might be only that of a missile boat and the helo would not be fittted with the right missile. Our Sea Kings and Sea Harriers used to carry the Sea Eagle,now obsolete.
The Kongsberg is a 100nm range AShM,with a 125kg warhead.Harpoon is 220kg,Exocet 165kg,and Brahmos 300kg.
Klub/ Kalibir variant warheads vary from 200 to 400kg ,ranges from 300km to 2000km, and KH-35/15 ASMs warheads from 520 -150 kg ranges from 130 to 300km. Fitting Ru ASMs on a US helo out of the Q. We may have to wait for the smaller and lighter BMos NG to equip our heavy ASW helos inthe future.
Reg.Romeo's ASMs, I thought we had plentiful stocks of Harpoons,Harpoonskis,etc. and didn't need a new AShM.
The NSM is a better more modern weapon and compatible with this helicopter. I don't quite get the rant about the warhead sizing and various missiles. Warhead size is based on your accuracy and lethality objectives and the overall size and weight characteristics of your missile. And the demonstrated performance which has now been tried in open waters against a represented target by both the Norwegian and the US Navies (SINKEX). The 100 nautical mile range is for mostly a low profile (I think High - Low - Low). The missile is kinematically capable of more and they have toyed with the idea of adding the JSM's Link-16 data-link to it. That said, the range when Air-Launched should be better. Not many naval helos can claim this capability and a 200 km OTH weapon coming off of a ship's helicopter is going to to be a fairly drastic increase in capability for both the USN (if they get it) and the IN.
The NSM's advantage is that it is small, and light and passive and as such can be carried by the helicopter. Good luck with your idea of mounting a Brahmos on a helicopter. I think we are a couple of posts away from advotating that each infantry soldier carry a Kalibr strapped to his back given how well it has shown to have performed etc etc etc.
Th ideal weapon for a helicopter, from this family of missiles, would be the JSM which is almost identical to the NSM but has a more optimized warhead and is networked so is capable of longer ranges. But it is about 2 years from IOC and no plan is yet in place to clear it for helicopter launch.
…
In a televised interview, Lieutenant Colonel Igor Nekrasov said: “Its primary function is to detect targets and provide targeting information on sea-going targets, as well as aerial ones, including manned and unmanned flying vehicles, cruise missiles, and so on.” The broadcaster added that the Ka-31R’s radar is so powerful that it can cover the whole of the Black Sea’s surface. It further said that Side 90 had recently been handed over to an aviation unit (believed to be the 318th Independent Air Regiment) reporting to the command of the Black Sea Fleet and that a new squadron had been formed in that regiment to operate such helicopters.
This implies that the Russian defense ministry has placed a qualitative order for the Ka-31R, since only one example of this variant had previously been built, assembled in 2012 for manufacturer and operational trials. Although the Ka-31’s prototype flew for the first in 1987, numerous issues with its mission equipment delayed completion of state acceptance trials to 1995. This was a mere formality, for the customer did not place any order.
The type entered serial production in 1999 when India awarded Russia’s Rosoboronexport arms exporter an initial contract worth $207 million for nine such rotorcraft. Following shipments in 2001-2004, the launch customer added a follow-on order for five more units in 2009, at $20 million each. In the following year, the Chinese navy received its first Ka-31 out of nine ordered, thus becoming the second export customer. Later, New Delhi signed for 10 additional Ka-31s, but recent press reports suggest the number has been reduced to six due to the Indian navy’s budget cuts. However, negotiations are being accelerated to meet the commissioning next year of the carrier Vikrant.
Kamov assembled two prototypes, Side 031 and 032, based on the Ka-27 (NATO: Helix) platform, carrying the E-801 Oko radar from NPO Vega. This sensor has the ability to detect a fighter at a distance of 150 km (81 nm) and a patrol boat at 250 km and track up to 20 targets simultaneously. It was also able to detect sea-skimming cruise missiles. The radar’s antenna has a length of 5.75 meters (about 19 feet) and area of 6 sq m (65 sq ft). It is stowed under the helicopter’s belly when not in use. Unfolded in flight, the antenna makes a 360-degree rotation every 10 seconds. Weighing 12.5 tonnes (27,557 pounds), the Ka-31 can loiter for two and a half hours at an altitude of 11,500 feet.
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^Soo. India rescued Kamov group too. Oh well. Interesting that they give the same specs for the OKO from 20 years ago and sneakily point out that the radar is good enough to cover the "entire Black Sea", which of course is about 1000 clicks East West and 500 North south.
Interesting also is the size of the antenna: about 20ft x 3ft. I bet they could do better than detect aerial targets at 150km, which the tiny el2032 can also manage.
The radar is scanning 360 degrees. The helicopter is going to be at low to medium-low altitude (around 8,000 - 10,000 ft). Targets attacking ships are going to be avoiding the ship's radars, hence flying medium to low-medium altitudes. Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles will likewise fly High-Low-Low profiles. Hence the effective radar performance against the typically encountered threats is going to be in the 150-200 km class maybe more for higher flying aircraft. The reference comparison to brochure ranges for two entirely different radars operating in two completely different modes and missions is irrelevant.
brar_w wrote:The radar is scanning 360 degrees. The helicopter is going to be at low to medium-low altitude (around 8,000 - 10,000 ft). Targets attacking ships are going to be avoiding the ship's radars, hence flying medium to low-medium altitudes. Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles will likewise fly High-Low-Low profiles. Hence the effective radar performance against the typically encountered threats is going to be in the 150-200 km class maybe more for higher flying aircraft. The reference comparison to brochure ranges for two entirely different radars operating in two completely different modes and missions is irrelevant.
I was referring to the specific reference to fighter detection at 150km and the Russian tendency to obfuscate. Perhaps that's also because of the lower altitude of the chopper?
brar_w wrote:The radar is scanning 360 degrees. The helicopter is going to be at low to medium-low altitude (around 8,000 - 10,000 ft). Targets attacking ships are going to be avoiding the ship's radars, hence flying medium to low-medium altitudes. Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles will likewise fly High-Low-Low profiles. Hence the effective radar performance against the typically encountered threats is going to be in the 150-200 km class maybe more for higher flying aircraft. The reference comparison to brochure ranges for two entirely different radars operating in two completely different modes and missions is irrelevant.
I was referring to the specific reference to fighter detection at 150km and the Russian tendency to obfuscate. Perhaps that's also because of the lower altitude of the chopper?
What's the point of comparing it to a staring radar operating in a completely different frequency, mode and supporting a completely different mission? 150 km for fighter aircraft would be entirely consistent provided the right context. It could be 100 km for other targets, or 200 km for yet others which are more cooperative. The job of this radar would be to surveil 360 degrees on an altitude and endurance challenged platform against targets that would be deliberately flying at low to medium altitudes. The ceiling of the helo defines its horizon as an absolute though where it runs most of its missions would be dependent on a whole host of factors (and may not always be at the aircraft's on paper ceiling). On a rotating surveillance radar you are more interested in how it handles tracks and how much area it can surveil in a given time. Comparing it to a fighter radar operating it in a different role and mode is useless.
Cain Marko wrote:
I was referring to the specific reference to fighter detection at 150km and the Russian tendency to obfuscate. Perhaps that's also because of the lower altitude of the chopper?
What's the point of comparing it to a staring radar operating in a completely different frequency, mode and supporting a completely different mission? .
Precisely because the numbers given should be contextualized before we hear noises like "russki gear is not good enough" or "that's a major weakness for the CV" etc. Noises, we have heard before.
brar_w wrote:
What's the point of comparing it to a staring radar operating in a completely different frequency, mode and supporting a completely different mission? .
Precisely because the numbers given should be contextualized before we hear noises like "russki gear is not good enough" or "that's a major weakness for the CV" etc. Noises, we have heard before.
So in order to attempt to debunk something you are going to compare it to something that is completely different and the comparison totally irrelevant? There are other AEW radars out there across the spectrum including those mounted on helicopters. That's just about as close to a strawman argument as one could get.
^my reasoning was that it'll be fighter fcr that will operate at the altitudes of the ka, where their ranges would probly be equally hampered. Esp. Considering the small size of the antenna. But yes, probly not the best comparison.
In any case the larger point was that it's hard to know real numbers considering the statement made in the article.
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/arunp2810/status/12 ... 23616?s=20 ---> The first & the last COs of Sea Harrier Squadron; 33 years apart. Young Commander Shikuraj had set his sights on my job as a 7-yr old in Yeovilton where his father, Lieutenant Commander Pillai was a radar specialist in the squadron. Some resolve!!
Forgive me for the OT. But I had to share this when I saw this post. My family and Cdr Shikuraj's were neigbours in Kochi. Sometime in '95-'96, I was in college and once I had to drop Cdr.Shikuraj at the nearby naval base where he was UT. On the way he told me that he was training to be a pilot, so I asked him whether one day he'll get to fly the Sea Harrier and he smilingly replied "I hope they let me!" . So he went on to fly the real Sea Harrier, whereas I went on to fly the virtual one on my laptop!
I remember once on the Indian military helicopters thread, there was someone advocating buying Apaches for the Navy as well. As you can see, there's no need... The MH-60R will end up being the IN's HIND -- it's gonna be a bloody flying tank!
It's not an attack helicopter (assuming that AH-64 would have been for littoral or amphib ops). MH-60R's most important mission is going to be ASW followed by Surface Warfare (a distant second). As it is with the P-8, it is not always about carrying weapons and blowing things up. ASW is one of the most important missions there is in naval warfare.
I remember once on the Indian military helicopters thread, there was someone advocating buying Apaches for the Navy as well. As you can see, there's no need... The MH-60R will end up being the IN's HIND -- it's gonna be a bloody flying tank!
I had made that comment in sarcasm. If IAF has such a dire need for Apache (which I feel is not needed), why deprive the navy of these, since army is also getting 6 of these. Ideally only Army should be operating Apaches.
https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... 26528?s=20 ---> Indian Naval Air Squadron (INAS) 350 is a Special Ops Squadron commissioned in the Indian Navy on 24 March 2009. It operates the UH-3H helicopter, capable of various roles - Search and Rescue (SAR), Casualty & Medical Evacuation, armament role, Special Ops, Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Relief and medium lift operations.
https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... 97507?s=20 ---> The Squadron is based at INS Dega, Vizag, Eastern Naval Command and has pioneered the use of advanced SAR gears in the Indian Navy. The crest depicts ‘Saras’, a flying crane in full flight over the Blue and White sea waves.
Cain Marko wrote:^Soo. India rescued Kamov group too. Oh well. Interesting that they give the same specs for the OKO from 20 years ago and sneakily point out that the radar is good enough to cover the "entire Black Sea", which of course is about 1000 clicks East West and 500 North south.
Interesting also is the size of the antenna: about 20ft x 3ft. I bet they could do better than detect aerial targets at 150km, which the tiny el2032 can also manage.
Ka-31 greatest drawback would be that it doesn't process any of the data it has no radar operators, it simply transmits it to the ship it is operating from.
Cain Marko wrote:^Soo. India rescued Kamov group too. Oh well. Interesting that they give the same specs for the OKO from 20 years ago and sneakily point out that the radar is good enough to cover the "entire Black Sea", which of course is about 1000 clicks East West and 500 North south.
Interesting also is the size of the antenna: about 20ft x 3ft. I bet they could do better than detect aerial targets at 150km, which the tiny el2032 can also manage.
Ka-31 greatest drawback would be that it doesn't process any of the data it has no radar operators, it simply transmits it to the ship it is operating from.
Actually the biggest problem that I see with the Helix is its poor endurance. Thought they were working on this and would have it rectified by now by making it IFR capable. Don't see why transmitting it to ship is such a problem - I assume it won't be picketing too far off from mothership? So signals should be strong and enough bandwidth? Jamming wouldn't be easy since enemy jammers have to come through air support of 29Ks to get close enough.
John wrote:
Ka-31 greatest drawback would be that it doesn't process any of the data it has no radar operators, it simply transmits it to the ship it is operating from.
Actually the biggest problem that I see with the Helix is its poor endurance. Thought they were working on this and would have it rectified by now by making it IFR capable. Don't see why transmitting it to ship is such a problem - I assume it won't be picketing too far off from mothership? So signals should be strong and enough bandwidth? Jamming wouldn't be easy since enemy jammers have to come through air support of 29Ks to get close enough.
Problem with that it need to maintain constant line of sight with the ship which means it cannot operate at lower altitudes which is critical when you are operating closer to land (risk of land based SAM) or face enemy ACs carrying HARM. Navy really wanted Seaking AEW but could not afford the high asking price.
Rajat Pandit recently wrote (in January 2020) that the order for 10 KM-31's had been reduced to 6 so not sure where Rahul Bedi got his info that 10 birds are involved. Remains to be seen what actually transpires.
" ...cut down the Rs 3,621 crore acquisition of 10 Kamov-31 AEW helicopters to six ...."
Who advocated BMos from a helo? Not me! Though when BMos- NG comes along,it may be possible as 29Ks reportedly will carry 3 and MKIs 5. I've given a comparison of the various anti- ship ASMs to look at options. The Kongsberg option is going to have a lesser range when compared with the Harpoon,Exocet,Uran class of ASMs which we already possess.Why induct yet another type? Is the IN a zoo to want so many species? Take a look at the menagerie of anti- ship missiles it has Our Sea Kings right now can carry them. Any problem with the Romeo in carrying these? I can understand the missile being required if carried by a smaller helo on a corvette , but for a major surface combatant one would want a longer ranged missile which would enable the helo to attack the enemy vessel outside the range of its air defences and farther away from its mother ship ,giving it the advantage of launching its missiles first if within range.
The KA-31s design is very neat with the radar folding under the fuselage,unlike the ugly system aboard RN SKs,hung outside of the cabin. However, while the helo may be doing the biz. today,for the future,a larger helo with a similar ,larger radar giving more enhanced capabilities would be worth pursuing for our carriers since they can't operate Hawkeye type AEW aircraft. The DRDO could look at platform options and a JV with the OEM could begin.It may take too long for the HAL's med. helo to arrive to serve the purpose.
for long time to come...
for IAF? Can they be?
