Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

[mody]

Bharat Forge also has the Bharat-52 gun. From earlier reports, from when BF partnered with Elbit, it was always assumed that Elbit will provide the electronics and targeting etc. and the metallurgy and manufacturing will be done by BF.

With the ATAGS program, a lot of the electronics is being developed inhouse. Same with the Dhanush program, which is an upgrade over the original bofors with regards to all systems and not just the barrel length.
Also Tata SED are supposed to have developed all the electronics for the mounted gun system that they developed, using the Denel gun.
IA is happy with the performance of Dhanush-45 and is also happy with the Sharang program. The cost of the Sharang is very low and the numbers can be added. Now the assembly of the Sharang guns is being carried out at Vehicles Factory Jabalpur, while GCF and OFB Kanpur, work on the barrel for the Sharang and other parts and the Dhanush gun. This is something that I have suggested number of times on this forum in the past. Vehicles factory Jabalpur to be taken over by GCF and converted for manufacturing guns, rather than do screw driver assembly of Stallion trucks.

Currently we have the following guns or prototypes available in India.
1). Dhanush-45 In Production. Order is for only 114 guns, from the earlier projected 414 guns. The order and the production rate can be increased, if required.
2). Dhanush-52 gun, prototype is ready. Testing of the same has not been carried out. I don't know if OFB has carried out internal testing of the same.
3). Truck Mounted Dhanush gun. Prototype ready with Dhanush-52 gun.
4). Sharang project. In production. Order for 300 placed. Further order for another 300 guns is possible. This will complement the 180 Soltam upgrade of the M46 guns, carried out in the past.
5). Tata-Denel truck mounted 52 calibre gun. Prototype ready. Not tested by IA. Denel gun can be replaced with Dhanush or ATAGS gun, if required.
6). Bharat Forge, Bharat-52 gun. Prototype is ready since a long time. Gun tested by BF abroad. Testing by IA not carried out. Manufacturing capacity exists as BF has bought over and imported the entire factory setup from Austria. The production capacity can be increased or brought online, if orders are given. Baba Kalyani is on record saying that they can produced upto 200 guns per annum if required and if requisite orders are placed.
7). Ultra light 39 calibre gun prototype ready from BF. No testing by IA as yet. Don't know if BF has had the gun tested themselves or not.
. Last but not the least, ATAGS prototypes from both Tata and BF. Currently being tested and teething troubles will be ironed out.

Apart from the above, current inventory of the B77 bofors, can be easily upgraded to the Dhanush-45 or Dhanush-52 standard as and when required. Once the Dhanush and Sharang guns start entering service in numbers, batches of old Bofors guns can be sent for the upgrade.

If numbers are required in a hurry, carry out testing of the Bharat-52 gun from BF and if the same are OK, place an order for between 200-400 guns. BF can produce the same over 3 years, from the time of placement of the order. Place the order for the 300 balance Dhanush guns, as per original plan and have the OFB increase production to minimum 6 guns per month.

Athos or Nexter or any other gun, does not bring anything to the table, that we don't seem to already have. Committing to purchase 1580 guns, means more than half of all towed guns. In fact even more than that. Out the 3,000 155mm guns required, about 800 are supposed to be truck mounted versions. 100 tracked SPH. That leaves about 2,000-2,100 155mm towed guns. About 300 original bofors are already in service, plus 180 Soltam guns.

All of this does not even take into consideration the number of Pinaka regiments being added. Sadly as was reported sometime back, the number of projected Pinaka regiments seem to have been scaled back from 22 regiments to maybe 12 regiments. However, even 12 regiments of Pinaka (MK1 and MK2 combined), along with 2 regiments of Smerch and the 5 regiments of upgraded Grad regiments, will represent a massive upgrade in firepower for IA.

[mody]

However OFB is India's best center of excellence in artillery as proven by the Sharang & Dhanush 45

The DRDO team could have focused on developing tracked Dhanush 52 on Arjun chassis and developing a ULW option.

In my opinion, we should order Dhanush 45 in large numbers, develop Dhanush 52 and thereafter its variants.

I am not sure, we can claim OFB as the center of excellence for artillery, when despite being the sole production house of artillery in India, they came out with a 45 caliber version of a tested design and the 52 caliber is nowhere to be seen. Even the Sarang is a uprgade to the Soltam design.

.

OFB had displayed a 45 calibre upgrade version of the Bofors at Defexpo 2003!! They have simply carried on from there, as the whole Dhanush project did not really find and takers/traction in 2003. The muzzle break design has been changed though. The prototype of the 52 calibre version of Dhanush is ready and has been displayed. With regards to the Sharang project, you are wrong in saying that the OFB Sharang is an upgrade or copy of the Soltam upgrade of the M46 guns. In fact during the original tender, OFB was also competing with Soltam for the upgrade deal. The upgraded M46, with a 45 calibre 155 mm barrel was also displayed by OFB in Defexpo 2003.
The photos have been posted on this forum in the past and are also available on the net.
However, during testing of the OFB gun, a shell burst in the barrel (most probably due to faulty shell) and the contract was given to Soltam.
The Soltam upgrade was not found to be satisfactory and current Sharang upgrade by OFB has been found to be much better and also much cheaper than all other proposals. Soltam was also subsequently blacklisted for corruption, along with Rhinemetal, Denel and ST Kinetiks during the mid-2000s.

[nam]

The issue is, there is no point designing a 45 caliber gun, even if it was displayed in 2003 or 2010. DRDO also got the same GSQR, did it go with a 45 caliber? Which modern towed artillery, that is been inducted in 2019 is 45 caliber?

All of IA's RFI/RFP required the guns to be 52 caliber. OFB creates a 45 caliber and now they need to be upgraded to 52 caliber!

OFB had no confidence to develop a 52 caliber gun. It can show the 52 caliber in expos as much it wants, but has it been field tested? It is only after it attained confidence in 45 caliber, that it brought a 52 caliber prototype.

If DRDO was funded to start developing ATAGS before Dhanush, would IA have accepted a 45 caliber?

[Raghunathgb]

OFB had no confidence to develop a 52 caliber gun. It can show the 52 caliber in expos as much it wants, but has it been field tested? It is only after it attained confidence in 45 caliber, that it brought a 52 caliber prototype.

What's wrong in going through phased development ?You are damned if you and you are damned if you don't do.

Considering that OFB had design of 39 caliber Bofors gun, it is quite understandable that they went with 45 caliber.

[ramana]

Nam,I recall reading technical papers that 45 calibers was optimum for the 155mm for the chamber of the 1970s era guns. So Dhanush 45 is based on the chamber volume of Bofors. To get to52 calibers you need higher chamber volume. The ATAGS has that.

[nam]

Here is the Tata ATAGS displayed in DexExpo 20. Notice the engine, it is completely different from the Tata one in Republic day.

So this seems to be the final design, that will get produced by both Tata & BF.

This high angle position, I think it is not available in Athos, becoz of it's location of it's autoloader.

[rohitvats]

There is simply no argument which supports import of artillery guns at this stage. Even if we assume that local 155/52 caliber options are not mature.

This is the time to go full throttle on indigenous solution and ensure that apart from tracked SP gun (for the moment), every other gun comes from domestic stable.

Assuming DRDO ATAGS 155/52 are still 2-years away from reaching final shape for induction, we should double down on Dhanush-45 and use it to replace older guns. If production numbers/month are an issue, farm out the production to BF/TATA/L&T.

In the meanwhile, DRDO should also be developing MGS version of ATAGS as well as Dhanush. Between towed and MGS, we're talking about ~2,400 guns. The commonality of base design will go a long way in managing CAPEX as well as OPEX.

[Pratyush]

Nam,I recall reading technical papers that 45 calibers was optimum for the 155mm for the chamber of the 1970s era guns. So Dhanush 45 is based on the chamber volume of Bofors. To get to52 calibers you need higher chamber volume. The ATAGS has that.

Not exactly correct, as the the 23 liter chamber is still utilised in various 52 cal SPH such as the K-9, or the PZH2000. NATO JBMOU complaint.

The 25 liters chamber is a South African innovation that is not in compliance with the JBMOU.

IMO, India purchased the IP for the designs and that is what is being further developed as ATAGS by DRDO.

[darshhan]

There is simply no argument which supports import of artillery guns at this stage. Even if we assume that local 155/52 caliber options are not mature.

This is the time to go full throttle on indigenous solution and ensure that apart from tracked SP gun (for the moment), every other gun comes from domestic stable.

Assuming DRDO ATAGS 155/52 are still 2-years away from reaching final shape for induction, we should double down on Dhanush-45 and use it to replace older guns. If production numbers/month are an issue, farm out the production to BF/TATA/L&T.

In the meanwhile, DRDO should also be developing MGS version of ATAGS as well as Dhanush. Between towed and MGS, we're talking about ~2,400 guns. The commonality of base design will go a long way in managing CAPEX as well as OPEX.

Totally agree. Kindly promote this argument on your twitter account as well. You have a big audience there.

[tsarkar]

And I seriously wish you would read my post's speculative nature before coming up with such authoritative non-explanations as DRDO's jealousy etc Not even DRDO (never the favorite child of Indian governments, based on past ginormous funding of programs) get to spend 100s of crores on two experimental and fundamentally different designs (Gerald Bull's lineage for BForge and Bofors FH77' for DRDL/Tata SED) based on jealousy etc

Setting aside, jealousy et al. what I am talking about is theG2 prototype below, which seem to have some external design commonality with ATHOS' major subsystems.

G1 closer to camera and G2, away from camera


From the Janes' report:

They said that once these trials are completed around July, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) will issue a request for proposals to both Tata Power, which provided the 'G1' prototype, and Bharat Forge, which provided the 'G2' prototype, for the supply of 150 guns for the IA for an estimated INR36.65 billion (USD524 million). The MoD's Defence Acquisition Council had approved the ATAGS procurement in August 2018.

Thereafter, one of two howitzer prototypes, either Tata Power's G1 or Bharat Forge's G2, is expected to be shortlisted for procurement based on performance and commercial bids.

Like I said, someone at MoD need to clarify to a reporter on the four gun-systems at play, their current status and order books: G1, G2, Dhanush and what ATHOS news means. IIRC, the G1 prototype of Tata SED was the one that set the range record, not G2.

Hnair, I've been following the ATAGS project since inception, and I am very sure of what I post.

Tata Power SED and Kalyani are integrators of G1 & G2 prototypes. They're NOT reusing any technology from any older JVs. Actual ATAGS project had 9 work packages

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2016/12/ ... rials.html

Development of the ATAGS system has been divided into nine “work packages”, with each package competitively tendered within India. The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) won the tender to manufacture gun barrels, along with forgings giant, the Kalyani Group.

Other private companies have won roles too. Mahindra Defence Systems will make the recoil system along with Tata Power SED, while Punj Lloyd will make the muzzle brake. During full-scale manufacture, an entire eco-system of smaller Tier-2 and Tier-3 suppliers is expected to come up.

ATAGS also has all electric drives not there in ATHOS or any other system. The other components are being independently developed as indicated in Ajai's article.

There was a graphic in one of the Aero India/Defexpo on who is exactly developing what component. Hence the entire premise of reuse from JV is incorrect.

A less riskier approach would have been evolution of proven Dhanush technologies. However going for complete new development with minimum OFB involvement is due to rivalry between DRDO and OFB. I know what I write. And needless to say, ATAGS has all the glitches expected from any new development that will take time to resolve.

[nam]

BF along with OFB are the producer of the barrel. OFB also produces the muzzle break and the breech is from Bofors/Dhanush.

So technically OFB is not excluded. And I don't know what else can they contribute? They didn't have 52 caliber design, while Tatas & BF already did,

ATAGS IS based on Dhanush. Even the recoil system is from Dhanush.


DRDO job is to give us overmatch. Small iteration should be left to the production agencies.

[mody]

BF along with OFB are the producer of the barrel. OFB also produces the muzzle break and the breech is from Bofors/Dhanush.

So technically OFB is not excluded. And I don't know what else can they contribute? They didn't have 52 caliber design, while Tatas & BF already did,

ATAGS IS based on Dhanush. Even the recoil system is from Dhanush.


DRDO job is to give us overmatch. Small iteration should be left to the production agencies.

Nam, BF has a 155mm 52 calibre gun. Tata's don't. They have only shown a MGS version with a Denel gun, prior to the ATAGS.
Also, what exactly is the 52 caliber design? It is basically the length of the barrel. If OFB is making the barrel, then they know how to make a 52 caliber barrel.

However, there seems to be distinct preferrence within the services or retired experts for the Dhanush and Sharang programs. The Security scan program for both of these projects shows this quite evidently. The argmunets are, simple, exists today, builds on what the army has been using and is comfortable with and the price is reasonable. Also, with the OFB, the programs are being run by IA.

However, there is desonance with regards to the above traits, when the army or the services draft the requirements for a new weapon system. The requirements always ask for the moon and seem to be made up by looking at the best brochures available in the world.
One can easily visualize a scenario when a few years down the road, the same experts start asking for a new Howtizer, claiming that the Dhanush is just an upgrade on 1980's technology and is now obsolete. Others around the world have moved on to 25-liter chamber volume and upto 58 calibre barrel lengths etc. Hence, we need new technology from the best in the world. Few to be imported with ToT and license manufacture of the rest.
Same old formula that we have followed for years.

What these so called experts don't seem to realize is the importance of developing something from the ground up. Manufacturing only teaches you the 'HOW', designing teaches you the 'WHY'. For so many projects we have painstaking built up the technology, so that new requirements, we can build on the existing building blocks and come up with new systems in relatively short period of time. Even programs like Trishul, which supposedly failed, taught up a lot of things and we were able to develop a lot of technology building blocks, which we are utilising today.
ATAGS is definitely the way to go and should form the bulk of our towed gun inventory and form the base for our MGS as well.
Dhanush and BF-52 can in the interim fill in some numbers and we can produce say about 600-650 of these guns. This number itself is more than the current IA inventory and would give a tremendous boost to IA firepower. We follow that with about 800-1,000 ATAGS guns.
Teething troubles will be sorted out over the next couple of years.

[nam]

Nam, BF has a 155mm 52 calibre gun. Tata's don't. They have only shown a MGS version with a Denel gun, prior to the ATAGS.
Also, what exactly is the 52 caliber design? It is basically the length of the barrel. If OFB is making the barrel, then they know how to make a 52 caliber barrel.

It is not that straight forward. Longer barrel, means heavier barrel. As soon as something becomes heavy, it effects everything else in a gun. Heavier barrel, means stress on the support & traversing mechanism. Then you have to manage heavier recoil.

Not to mention effect on accuracy. And effect on ability to transport (compare how dhanush hold's it barrel versus ATAGS while transporting). And need to have more powerful engine to maintain the "SP" characteristics part of SPH.

There is a reason why OFB did not jump to 52 caliber, right away.

Tata have worked with Denel on the MGS. Otherwise they won't be able to design their version that easily. Notice all firings by DRDO is on Tata version. They came up with the revolving 6 round autoloader. Their version is probably lighter than BF's.

[Kartik]

There is simply no argument which supports import of artillery guns at this stage. Even if we assume that local 155/52 caliber options are not mature.

This is the time to go full throttle on indigenous solution and ensure that apart from tracked SP gun (for the moment), every other gun comes from domestic stable.

Assuming DRDO ATAGS 155/52 are still 2-years away from reaching final shape for induction, we should double down on Dhanush-45 and use it to replace older guns. If production numbers/month are an issue, farm out the production to BF/TATA/L&T.

In the meanwhile, DRDO should also be developing MGS version of ATAGS as well as Dhanush. Between towed and MGS, we're talking about ~2,400 guns. The commonality of base design will go a long way in managing CAPEX as well as OPEX.

So Rohit, is the ATHOS import deal truly being pursued? Or is this just DDM news?

[Vips]

[jaysimha]

https://www.defenceaviationpost.com/202 ... y-systems/
Indigenous Versus Imported Artillery Systems

Inputs indicate that the Indian army is presently at the stage of cost negotiation for procuring 1580 artillery guns called ATHOS (Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System) 2052 manufactured by the Elbit company of Israel.

The procurement is expected to be 400 Guns in fully assembled condition and remaining 1,180 under the ‘make in India’ in partnership with Bharat Forge. This deal is expected to cost Rs 9000-10,000 crores. When compared in capabilities to similar calibre guns already under induction, the Elbit produced ATHOS does not offer any major advantage.

[kit]

https://www.defenceaviationpost.com/202 ... y-systems/
Indigenous Versus Imported Artillery Systems

Inputs indicate that the Indian army is presently at the stage of cost negotiation for procuring 1580 artillery guns called ATHOS (Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System) 2052 manufactured by the Elbit company of Israel.

The procurement is expected to be 400 Guns in fully assembled condition and remaining 1,180 under the ‘make in India’ in partnership with Bharat Forge. This deal is expected to cost Rs 9000-10,000 crores. When compared in capabilities to similar calibre guns already under induction, the Elbit produced ATHOS does not offer any major advantage.

i think this is dated info, there was the news begining of 2019, but no confirmation of such later., if you know how procurement works , not to be taken seriously., its all news and "sources"

[nam]

So BF's ULWH 39 and 52 caliber are in Artillery school, for some "seminar".

[abhik]

Alok Prasad's Talk on OFB Artillery Guns and Dhanush Gun Development

At the Artillery Technology India 2020 Seminar held at the School of Artillery, Devlali, Nasik, India on 26-27 February 2020, Mr Alok Prasad, IOFS, General Manager Ordnance Factory Medak, gave a presentation on OFB, Artillery Guns Development, Evolution & Development of the Dhanush Gun by OFB, on 26 Feb 2020.
This seminar was of interest to those who wish to keep up with latest developments in development and manufacture of artillery guns in India.

[ramana]

Very nice talk. I wish another part talks only about the trials and and why there were issues with shell exiting in multiple pieces often. Artillery is truly a system.
And the Dhanush accuracy shows that. And te comparison chart with Bofors reinforces that.

Wonder if the Bofors can be upgraded to Dhanush to increase the number of guns?
Most likely the cost will be close a new Dhanush and not worthwhile effort.

[nam]

Looking at the trials slide we should drop any hope of atags induction for the next 3-4 years.

The presenter really wants to prevent private efforts in artillery, in the name of stopping "duplicity of effort".

[ramana]

Not really. I wish like British did during WWII take the Dhanush and have it made by a private party too.

I like the fact that it has 23 liter chamber.
Also did you catch the nuance of the modified muzzle brake?
It ensure recoil forces same as Bofors 155mm 39 calibers.
So many of the older carriage parts are usable.

Thats neat engineering.

The large number of trials were also in a different era hoping it would fail so they could seek imports.

Now bringing private companies is the name of the game.

All the Procurement cats will seek jobs there post retirement.

Hope CDS will put a kabash of five years cool off period after retirement.

[ranjan.rao]

^^actually procurement cats joining desi pvt companies would be better for desi eco system ....i understand it will be hard for govt to stop them from joining phaaren companies who can have the best brachures..but still in ITVITY desi companies have shown they are second to none in that game...given that we are going for PoK before the mid of this decade it is essential that we are locked and loaded...

[Vips]

OFB exports its newly developed 52-calibre barrels to Bofors.

The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), which is celebrating its 219th foundation day on Wednesday, has exported its newly developed 52-calibre barrel for 155 mm artillery guns to Bofors Test Center, its chairman Hari Mohan said.

He said that OFB has exported two 52-calibre barrels to Swedish arms manufacturer Bofors AB, from which it had imported 155 mm howitzer guns in the mid-80s.

"We have made a prototype which is truck-chassis mounted," Mohan told newspersons here. In the last 14-15 years, the OFB has done "immense progress" in the field of high-calibre barrels, be it for tanks, medium and heavy artillery guns, and the barrel of Dhanush artillary gun has been indigenously developed, he said.

"Now we are embarking upon a barrel further increasing it to 52-calibre. The range of 155 mm Dhanush gun is 38 km. The Bofors gun barrel is 39-calibre, while that of Dhanush is 45-calibre," he said.

Mohan said the OFB has already designed and manufactured 52-calibre barrel, an important component of a full-fledged gun, and mounted one on a truck."We have exported these to Bofors and 52-calibre barrels have been taken by its test centre, which is using these for validation of 155 mm ammunitions being developed by global OEMs," he said.

More than 150 rounds of shells have been fired from these 52-calibre barrels, he said. "The barrel is behaving better than expected and the Bofors Test Center is extremely happy," he said. Apart from the barrel, Bofors is also taking the breech mechanism and muzzle brakes and all the three are being used, he said on Tuesday.

"We indigenously developed the technology for 155mm/52-calibre barrels and exported these to Bofors Test Center," OFB chairman
said. He said the OFB, which had initially handed over six Dhanush artillery guns to the Indian Army, will, in a few weeks, supply another six such guns.

[kit]

coals to newcastle !.. i like that, hope they get the royalties as well

[JTull]

OFB exports its newly developed 52-calibre barrels to Bofors.

The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), which is celebrating its 219th foundation day on Wednesday, has exported its newly developed 52-calibre barrel for 155 mm artillery guns to Bofors Test Center, its chairman Hari Mohan said.

He said that OFB has exported two 52-calibre barrels to Swedish arms manufacturer Bofors AB, from which it had imported 155 mm howitzer guns in the mid-80s.

"We have made a prototype which is truck-chassis mounted," Mohan told newspersons here. In the last 14-15 years, the OFB has done "immense progress" in the field of high-calibre barrels, be it for tanks, medium and heavy artillery guns, and the barrel of Dhanush artillary gun has been indigenously developed, he said.

"Now we are embarking upon a barrel further increasing it to 52-calibre. The range of 155 mm Dhanush gun is 38 km. The Bofors gun barrel is 39-calibre, while that of Dhanush is 45-calibre," he said.

Mohan said the OFB has already designed and manufactured 52-calibre barrel, an important component of a full-fledged gun, and mounted one on a truck."We have exported these to Bofors and 52-calibre barrels have been taken by its test centre, which is using these for validation of 155 mm ammunitions being developed by global OEMs," he said.

More than 150 rounds of shells have been fired from these 52-calibre barrels, he said. "The barrel is behaving better than expected and the Bofors Test Center is extremely happy," he said. Apart from the barrel, Bofors is also taking the breech mechanism and muzzle brakes and all the three are being used, he said on Tuesday.

"We indigenously developed the technology for 155mm/52-calibre barrels and exported these to Bofors Test Center," OFB chairman
said. He said the OFB, which had initially handed over six Dhanush artillery guns to the Indian Army, will, in a few weeks, supply another six
such guns.

Just give them your IP, lock stock and barrel!

They can then export your designs as their own.

[Bart S]

^I hope that this is not like the badly negotiated deal with the British (Jaguar?) where they automatically got the IP to any enhancements/developments that we made.

[Picklu]

The buggers shafted us during ToT by providing a faulty breach design. We finally rectified the same after a decade via soltam. The current import of 2 barrel is only to ensure they come up with certified ammo for the same.

The ammo(consumable) is where the gravy is with each shell costing us 20 lakh upward in import.

[nam]

So this the 152MM barrel export that was listed in the GoI report. I guessed it was for BAE, however I thought it would be BF, which was doing it.

Either certifying their ammo to our barrel or planning to outsource barrel production.

[abhik]

I would speculate that Bofors does not have the capability to produce barrel, less than 50 Archers ordered/produced over a span of a decade plus does not sound sustainable to maintaining manufacturing facility.

[ramana]

Picklu, India will not import any ammo anymore. The barrel being tested by Bofors to certify their ammo. If you not except the recoil system everything was sent and 150 rounds fired with good results.
No matter gives confidence that OFB can do the job.

I sincerely await the IITM ramjet shell being developed. That will be the next milestone.

[Barath]

Picklu, India will not import any ammo anymore.
I sincerely await the IITM ramjet shell being developed. That will be the next milestone.

Would you except newer capabilities like extended range ammo from this ?

https://economictimes.com/news/defence/ ... 115850.cms

(Excalibur, old reference of interest)

[brar_w]

Picklu, India will not import any ammo anymore.
I sincerely await the IITM ramjet shell being developed. That will be the next milestone.

Would you except newer capabilities like extended range ammo from this ?

https://economictimes.com/news/defence/ ... 115850.cms

(Excalibur, old reference of interest)

The IA already operates the Excalibur. There is no extended range variant of the Excalibur.

[ramana]

Barath, Range definitely but not the same accuracy as Excalibur.
The shell and guidance are being worked parallel I think.
The goal is an Indian solution for Indian problems.

US has developed a Long Range PGK for its deep fire shells. Its called LRPGK.

[brar_w]

LRPGK provides current baseline PGK accuracy on RAP rounds in the 65-80 km range class. The XM1113 is the first application..others will follow. The accuracy and survivability (GPS degraded performance) is the same as current PGK (with GPS upgrades).

The Long Range Precision Guidance Kit is a course correcting fuze that provides near precision accuracy for current and future 155mm High Explosive projectiles. The LR PGK uses state of the art technologies to develop a next generation guidance kit that operates in GPS contested environments. This system greatly decreases collateral damage and provides a sophisticated approach to defeating threats on the modern battlefield. LR PGK is compatible with the XM1113 Rocket Assisted Projectile and future long-range artillery systems to meet LRPF Indirect Fire program objectives.

[Barath]

Thanks, but I'm confused.

Are you saying that the Indian army will/may import more pg Excalibur AND long range ammo or that it won't because there's an Indian initiative in R&D. ?

Also, the IN i think, just imported mk92 mod 1 ammo with/for the mark 45. I assumed that IN is out of scope of this discussion. However the Excalibur n5 and leonardo Vulcan make extended range pg shells.

Again, what are the chances of the MoD importing ammo with
new capabilities for the IN, or of the MoD extending the initiative in R&D to cater to the navy ?

[brar_w]

Are you saying that the Indian army will/may import more pg Excalibur AND long range ammo or that it won't because there's an Indian initiative in R&D. ?

The Indian Army already operates the Excalibur 1B. There is no long range variant of it. Range is a function of the gun that is firing it. For now it has shown its ability to meet precision capability out to 65 km. Testing in April will extend that out to 70 km. Beyond that, it would need a complete re-design or basically just a different round.

[Barath]

Yes, you & Ramana mentioned it. The additional info is nice, thanks.. That was not the question.

The question was whether in your opinion and Ramana's, whether there would be additional imports for ammo for precision guidance or for longer range. or for smart projectiles or other such capabilities.

If you think that the indian army will be happy with existing stock and increment of the shells and Indian r&d and no import will be considered, even for this scope

And I'm assuming the navy's desires are out of scope of this discussion.

Ie. I'm trying to figure the scope of the opinion/discussion. Excalibur was just an example.

--'
For separate discussion yes, your point about gun capability is noted (and you were likely simplifying on my account). Nevertheless, ammo also has a part to play, with longer range, achieved via drag reduction ,(longer, slimmer), base drag reduction (eg base bleed), or rocket or ramjet assistance , in addition to playing with charge, etc. And guidance and control with fins, laser guidance, shaped trajectory, degree of discrimination probably on someone's wish list, same round or not, same gun or not

[brar_w]

The Excalibur was acquired via a DCS so we do not know what the planned inventory is for the IA and whether all of that supply has been met or whether it is still ongoing. Beyond that, I don't think the IA wants to import any other systems. There is an indigenous PGK program that will likely provide additional capability in the future. Affordable accuracy is almost a precursor to long range artillery especially when you are looking at 50, 60 or 70 km shots. As far as long range artillery with things like Ramjet, those could be long term solutions but at the moment it is a university project not something that they have gone all in on. South Korea has a national program to develop a ramjet artillery round but it is more modest range targets (80 km which is about what non optimized hypervelocity rounds can get today so I don't understand why such a solution would be benificial at those ranges). NAMMO/Boeing have a round they are trying to pitch to the US Army against a 120'ish Km requirement. Again, not totally convinced that it is the best way forward given alternatives.

I haven't seen the modeling on how the guidance cost is impacted as you extend ranges beyond the 70-80 km range but that could be one bottlneck to extreme range artillery. You don't want to pay 2-3x the cost for accuracy at those ranges compared to what you pay on near precision (PGK) or precision rounds (like excalibur). Also the cost-benefit for an expeditionary force like the US is always different (often the logistical cost is more than the actual cost of the round so they can afford to pay more for fewer more accurate rounds that cut down on shots per target) so what the IA works out in terms of where it thinks is the sweet spot between range, accuracy and cost is going to be different.

[niran]

Not exactly correct, as the the 23 liter chamber is still utilised in various 52 cal SPH such as the K-9, or the PZH2000. NATO JBMOU complaint.

SPG cannot utilise 25 liter chamber, to overcome the recoil will need proper arty carriage or Vehicle so heavy it will need 2 engines to travel.