Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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srai
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by srai »

Aerial gunfight more akin to: Don’t shoot where the enemy is; shoot where he will be.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

Points taken
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Raghunathgb »

Breaking:

DAC paves the way for procurement of 83 LCA Mk1A from HAL by finalising the contractual and other issues. The proposal will now be placed for consideration of Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS).

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/12 ... 55168?s=19
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by mody »

Saichand K wrote:The new 725L drop tank on Tejas-FOC, is it supersonic? Also, does FOC version have OBOGs installed on it, since DEBEL-DRDO cleared lab trials of OBOGs ???
OBOGS will hopefully part of the MK1A upgrade. Not part of FoC. Hope they start working on integrating Astra on the FoC planes as well.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by mody »

If MoD and HAL want, an order for additional 16 FoC standard Tejas MK1 can be finalised in a mater of a few months. The escalation in the price from the last contract and the delivery time will be the main sticking points. However, if HAL wants to keep the assembly line humming, it can offer almost similar pricing and continued delivery of the planes, after completion of the 18 two seat trainers or along with the two seat trainers.

However, I have not seen any reports of HAL lobbying for additional orders for the FoC variant nor the IAF asking for it. Unless someone in MoD does this on their own accord, then that will be a first. Maybe someone like Vidurji or his colleagues can become a hero for all of us jingoes of BRF.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Neilz »

Not sure if its appropriate to post here... let me now, I will remove it.

Tejas in action..

https://zeenews.india.com/photos/india/ ... an-2270216
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Bharadwaj »

I think safe to say that CCS clearance is a formality?
Here is the MOD release

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1606941#

Ministry of Defence
In a big boost to ‘Make in India’, DAC paves way for procurement of 83 indigenous Tejas fighter aircraft for IAF
Posted On: 18 MAR 2020 5:21PM by PIB Delhi

Consequent to the separation of duties between Department of Defence (DoD) and Department of Military Affairs (DMA), the first meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) under the chairmanship of Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh was held with the Acquisition Wing being the Secretariat of the DAC. This would lead to better coordination and faster processing of cases with the Acquisition wing being in the overall charge of the Capital acquisition process.

The Light Combat Aircraft Tejas indigenously-designed by Aircraft Development Agency (ADA) under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is going to be the backbone of Indian Air Force in future. While orders of 40 Tejas aircraft had been placed with HAL in initial configurations, DAC paved the way for procurement of 83 of the more advanced Mk1A version of the aircraft from HAL by finalising the contractual and other issues. The proposal will now be placed for consideration of Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS). This procurement will be a major boost to 'Make in India' as the aircraft is indigenously designed, developed and manufactured with participation of several local vendors apart from HAL.

The Defence Acquisition Council also accorded approval for acquisition of indigenous Defence equipment for about Rs 1,300 crore. The proposals were for procurement of Aerial Fuses and Twin-Dome Simulators for Hawk Mk32 aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

The DAC approved an amendment to the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2016 to enable review by a Costing Committee of bids submitted by Joint Ventures of Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs)/Ordnance Factory Board (OFB)/DRDO from whom procurement of Defence items is undertaken on a nomination basis. This will bring about more transparency in costs and compress the timelines for negotiation of the contract.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Vips »

Defence ministry clears Rs 38,000 cr deal for 83 advanced Tejas jets.

The LCA Mk-1A will come with additional improvements over the FOC aircraft, making it the most advanced Tejas variant so far.

The defence ministry on Wednesday gave a green light to the purchase of 83 Light Combat Aircraft Mk-1A advanced Tejas jets from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and the proposal would be sent to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval soon, a ministry spokesperson said.

The deal, expected to be worth Rs 38,000 crore, is critical for HAL to prevent a complete halt of production at its facilities. HT reported on January 11 that HAL’s order books are empty beyond 2021-22 and new orders from the armed forces --- especially for the 83 jets --- are critical for continuity in production.

“While orders of 40 Tejas aircraft had been placed with HAL in initial configurations, the Defence Acquisition Council paved the way for procurement of 83 of the more advanced Mk-1A version of the aircraft from HAL by finalising the contractual and other issues,” the spokesperson said after a DAC meeting.

He said the purchase would provide a significant boost to the Make in India initiative.The deal for the 83 Mk-1A jets will take the total number of Tejas variants ordered to 123.

The 40 LCAs already ordered by the IAF are in the initial operational clearance (IOC) and the more advanced final operational clearance (FOC) configurations. The LCA Mk-1A will come with additional improvements over the FOC aircraft, making it the most advanced Tejas variant so far.

The Mk-1A variant is expected to come with digital radar warning receivers, external self-protection jammer pods, active electronically scanned array radar, advanced beyond-visual-range missiles and significantly improved maintainability.

HAL is expected to deliver the first Mk-1A jet to the IAF three years after the deal is signed.

The deal was earlier expected to be worth around Rs 50,000 crore but it turned out to be cheaper as the air force reduced its requirements for spares and support facilities for the fighter jets.

The Mk-1A jets will form the bulk of the IAF’s combat squadrons as it attempts to make up the shortfall in its fighter fleet, said Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur (retd), additional director general, Centre for Air Power Studies.

“The Mk-1A jets will also serve as a stepping stone for the Tejas Mk-2 fighters on which the IAF has placed high hopes,” Bahadur added.

The IAF is struggling with a shortage of warplanes. Compared to an optimum strength of 42-plus units required to fight a two-front war, the count of the IAF’s fighter squadrons has shrunk to 31.

In a report tabled in Parliament in December 2019, the Parliamentary standing committee on defence said “all-out steps” should be taken to ensure that the “order book position” of defence public sector units such as HAL improved in the coming years and the ministry should extend full cooperation to achieve that.

The DAC, headed by defence minister Rajnath Singh, also approved the acquisition of indigenous military hardware worth Rs 1,300 crore including aerial fuses and twin-dome simulators for the IAF’s Hawk trainer aircraft.

The council also approved an amendment to the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP)-2016 to enable review by a ‘costing committee’ of bids submitted by joint ventures of defence public sector undertakings/Ordnance Factory Board /Defence Research and Development Organisation from whom purchases are made on a nomination basis. “This will bring about more transparency in costs and compress the timelines for negotiation of the contract,” the spokesperson added.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

Karan, what is the development plan for RWR/RWJ for Mk1A. I thought Mk1s already come with digital RWR/RWJ, isn't it?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

srai wrote:
shaun wrote: Most probably tandem pylon for the bomb ..
We have not seen tandem pylon for AAM tested yet. Only ones shown were in models of MK.2.

On the other hand, we have seen pictures of tandem bomb racks being tested:
* Inner most wing pylon —> 2 x 1000lb bombs in linear carriage.

Image
Image
We have seen dual carriage pylons for the Tejas as well, but just not a fabricated pylon. I was hoping that it would be developed for the IOC and FOC variants as well and not just the Mk1A.

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

Saichand K wrote:The new 725L drop tank on Tejas-FOC, is it supersonic? Also, does FOC version have OBOGs installed on it, since DEBEL-DRDO cleared lab trials of OBOGs ???
OBOGS will come with the MWF, not the Mk1 or Mk1A. Apparently Tejas carries enough LOX to fly non-stop for 10 hours if required, as per HV Thakur. With the aerial refueling probe coming in, should see significantly longer sorties, pilot fatigue and availability of aerial tankers being the only real constraints.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

srai wrote:^^^
Will be upgraded at some point in the future. Most probably after the FOC Squadron is fully operational.
Surely will be upgraded, most likely during the next overhaul cycle. Contract will have to be signed for the work between HAL and IAF. But the software upgrades can possibly be done without having to wait for the 16 IOC single seaters to be undergoing overhaul.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 71522?s=20 ---> Dedicated to @vikrant2794 and others who have been chasing me for more pictures. Tejas SP-21 -- what a beauty!!

Image
Beautiful!
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

Rakesh wrote:Air Commodore KA Muthanna retires from HAL at the end of the month. Kudos to him for everything he has done on the Tejas program. If you visit the first post on page 1 of this thread, you will see his name all over.
indeed, he has been associated with the Tejas program for well over a decade. Such an experienced aviator and TP, his knowledge and expertise would have been invaluable to designers back in the early stages.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by suryag »

Please appoint capable people who are retiring as paid consultants to have their knowledge absorbed by incoming team members over the next five years.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by JayS »

Some exchange with HVT saar reveals that IOC jets will soon have full FOC level BVR capability back ported. That means Sq 45 can go to front line in some time with full BVR capability, giving it all required basic min capability needed for full flegded Air Defense missions.

Astra is being integrated for MK1A. After that is done, eventually Astra will also be backported to IOC/FOC jets. Astra integration with MMR is a non-issue.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by nachiket »

JayS wrote: Astra is being integrated for MK1A. After that is done, eventually Astra will also be backported to IOC/FOC jets. Astra integration with MMR is a non-issue.
The advantages of owning and having access to all avionics systems. It will be a non-trivial task in any other IAF jet and might require us to collaborate with respective OEM.

Jay, which RWR is currently used on the Mk1? Is it a variant of the original Tarang developed for the MKI or the newer R118? Are there any changes planned for this in Mk1A, like integrating the digital version DR118?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by srai »

Defence ministry clears Rs 38,000 cr deal for 83 advanced Tejas jets
...

The deal was earlier expected to be worth around Rs 50,000 crore but it turned out to be cheaper as the air force reduced its requirements for spares and support facilities for the fighter jets.

...
So that is how the price was reduced! Less spares and support facilities. Down the road, the IAF will end up paying more these spares/facilities with inflation.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Jay »

suryag wrote:Please appoint capable people who are retiring as paid consultants to have their knowledge absorbed by incoming team members over the next five years.
This happens more often then we are aware in PSU's. When I was working at one of defense labs more than a decade ago, the organization bought in a lot of legacy scientists as consultants that retired and the good thing was that all of those were merit hires, not recommendation candidates. If HAL is like any of the labs I am aware of they might be doing the same.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Also, can someone tell me the production line names? I think one is called the LCA Division (?) which is Line 1 if I am not mistaken. I need to add that info on page 1.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Dileep »

Here is the detail from the presentation by Yogindra at SIATI SCM Conference:
LCA Division is line 1. They also manage the outsourcing and supply chain management. Their current capacity is 8 AC per year.
Aircraft Division is Line 2. Here they run the second sub assembly and integration lines. Their current capacity is 4 AC per year.
They plan to reach 16 AC per year by "capacity augmentation" of these two lines onlee.
There was no mention of the "third line" in his presentation. So, IMO, that doesn't exist.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Dileep, you rock Sir! Thank You so much! I have added the info in Page 1.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

srai wrote:Defence ministry clears Rs 38,000 cr deal for 83 advanced Tejas jets
...

The deal was earlier expected to be worth around Rs 50,000 crore but it turned out to be cheaper as the air force reduced its requirements for spares and support facilities for the fighter jets.

...
So that is how the price was reduced! Less spares and support facilities. Down the road, the IAF will end up paying more these spares/facilities with inflation.
This will go from being Capex to revenue expenditure.

Regarding production numbers now that we have a working fighter the people at the top must get the IAF/MOD/ HAL/Fin Min/GOi a.k.a miltary beauracary to get the orders up and production lines up. Get the local production eco system running and the import ecosystem out. But this will not win elections.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

Dileep Two questions.

1) What about the factory funded with 1350 crores?

2) Are IOC aircraft to be upgraded to FOC standard eventually?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Karan M »

Indranil wrote:Karan, what is the development plan for RWR/RWJ for Mk1A. I thought Mk1s already come with digital RWR/RWJ, isn't it?
That is the DR118 under development. The RWRs on the LCA is likely the Tarang-2 or the R118 (a further development with a wider frequency coverage).
The reason why the Mk1 is not equipped with a SPJ is because even without it, its signature and radar combination is fairly excellent. But once that dual pylon gets developed for the FOC LCA, I expect all the Mk1s will get it.
Easiest thing for IAF to do is just get the Mk1A's EL/L-8222 WB SPJ.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Dileep »

ramana wrote:Dileep Two questions.

1) What about the factory funded with 1350 crores?

2) Are IOC aircraft to be upgraded to FOC standard eventually?
There was no mention of a new facility during his presentation. Given the positive tone of the presentation, this would imply there is none (he would have touted it if it did). He talked about a lot of new and improvements in the current lines, such as a massive increase in the number of subassembly jigs, a new laser jig calibrator and a robotic drilling machine. I listed it in an earlier post here about the SIATI Conference. I think the 1350 Cr went that way.

Yes, IOC craft will be upgraded for sure. Heard it multiple times from multiple people. It is sensible to think that it may not be a one-shot / over the wall upgrade, but an 'as and when convenient' type upgrade. For example, IFR probe can be done only as a major refit, while some LRU / software changes can easily phase in.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Karan M »

The quickest change will be adding BVR capability.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Khalsa »

Dileep wrote:Here is the detail from the presentation by Yogindra at SIATI SCM Conference:
LCA Division is line 1. They also manage the outsourcing and supply chain management. Their current capacity is 8 AC per year.
Aircraft Division is Line 2. Here they run the second sub assembly and integration lines. Their current capacity is 4 AC per year.
They plan to reach 16 AC per year by "capacity augmentation" of these two lines onlee.
There was no mention of the "third line" in his presentation. So, IMO, that doesn't exist.
Clarity , triple distilled !!!
Thank you.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by yensoy »

Aditya_V wrote:
srai wrote:Defence ministry clears Rs 38,000 cr deal for 83 advanced Tejas jets

So that is how the price was reduced! Less spares and support facilities. Down the road, the IAF will end up paying more these spares/facilities with inflation.
This will go from being Capex to revenue expenditure.

Regarding production numbers now that we have a working fighter the people at the top must get the IAF/MOD/ HAL/Fin Min/GOi a.k.a miltary beauracary to get the orders up and production lines up. Get the local production eco system running and the import ecosystem out. But this will not win elections.
You have a comprehensive contract covering spares, training etc when there is a chance that your supplier may take advantage of the lock-in and use it as an opportunity to quote high prices for these items, which is particularly the case when you have a foreign supplier.

When your supplier is another arm of the GoI, they won't be as adversarial and you don't need to take such a defensive posture. You can negotiate future follow-ons in good faith and you won't be price gouged.

In that sense I'm not surprised that the contract negotiated now was basic. We can see how the a/c performs, which spares are used more than others and order based on observed wear & tear.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by dkhare »

I don't know if this was posted before but Sameer Joshi (@joe_sameer) just posted a video of the Tejas performing an inflight refueling. Pretty smooth approach to the drogue - that FCS setting for IFR doing its thing.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 7900175360

Commentators in the thread wonder if it's a Jaguar due to the cockpit frame / HUD. I think the retractable probe of the Jaguar looks very different. The Tejas does have a frame around its HUD.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by dkhare »

New pictures from HAL via Vayu Aerospace on Mk1 FOC SP-21.

You can see the HUD frame in this one:

Image

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by naird »

Build finish looks top notch !! Loving the pics
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

The cynical part of me says someone wanted to front-load the Tejas order with spares and maintenance to raise the price to be higher than imports. And did achieve that. But sense prevailed via dove.

Anyway as long as this order goes through and keeps the line humming I have no qualms.

Dileep can the gap be filled with Naval LCA?
It doesn't have the pul etc. Added structure and canards with new engines.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/124 ... 71557?s=20 ---> UPDATED WEAPON OPTIONS.

After integration issues with Israeli Python-5, IAF looks to equip Tejas with ASRAAM.

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by nachiket »

There is no HP on the Mk1/Mk1A where that SPJ pod is shown.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 59168?s=20 ---> Initial testing phase has shown that Uttam AESA radar has a far better MTBF rate than Israeli Elta 2052 AESA radar.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 68480?s=20 ---> When looking at this pic, a thought struck me - IAF is going through HUGE transformation in terms of fighter compatible with in flight refuelling:

* 123 LCA
* 70 MiG-29UPG
* 60 M2K-5 MK.2
* 60+Jags
* 272 MKI

And for all that just 6 tankers? Surely the lowest fighter/tanker ratio in the world.

Image

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 97792?s=20 ---> That’s almost 600 fighters for 6 tankers (100:1). Even the IAF’s much longed for new generation tanker contest (won twice by Airbus) will only bring this down to 50:1 (if IL-78s remain), is that even enough to keep squadron pilots current on in flight refuelling?

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 01793?s=20 ---> Oh and don’t forget the 11 C-130J-30 the IAF have with AAR probes. It doesn’t seem like the IAF has any plans to have more than 6-12 tankers for the foreseeable future but they’ll be adding 100s more fighters in the not too distant future, all in flight refuelling capable.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 74752?s=20 ----> The 3 Netra and 3 Phalcon also have in flight refuelling capability. This is a VAST fleet that to be served by just 6-12 tankers. Cannot see how it’s possible to keep all flight crew current in it.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 03104?s=20 ----> The IAF is always talking about “force multipliers”, tankers enhance the capability of fighters by a factor of 60-100% in some cases. Similarly true of AWACS. Support systems is an area Indian Mil are woefully inadequate in almost every area
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

dkhare wrote:I don't know if this was posted before but Sameer Joshi (@joe_sameer) just posted a video of the Tejas performing an inflight refueling. Pretty smooth approach to the drogue - that FCS setting for IFR doing its thing.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 7900175360

Commentators in the thread wonder if it's a Jaguar due to the cockpit frame / HUD. I think the retractable probe of the Jaguar looks very different. The Tejas does have a frame around its HUD.
These videos are from 2018. They are from Tejas.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Some very relevant tweets for the Tejas Mk1.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 92832?s=20 ---> IAF seems to have lost sight of the fact that the Tejas is a MiG-21 replacement but I guess they’ve backed themselves into this position by refusing to induct LCA earlier and then converting some MiG-21 squadrons to Su-30-MKI squadrons, are also blind to reality that LCA can replace MiG-27s and even Jags.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 87489?s=20 ---> Hilariously enough it seems IAF is happier to keep flying these flying coffins and hold out for their silver bullets (MWF/MMRCA) than to induct the LCA MK1/1A in large scale orders (120++) they could’ve inducted LCA almost a decade back but kept creating hurdles to this.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 49184?s=20 ---> Frankly IAF could order 20+20+140 (IOC+FOC+MK1A) and replace all obsolete MiG-21 (and a few MiG-27) squadrons but they are the epitome of letting perfect be the enemy of good enough. They want bigger and better i.e. MK2/MWF hence low orders for MK1/A.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 55648?s=20 ---> Production rates follow orders. 20+ is possible but it’s 16 because of the projected orders. You have to ask the IAF why they aren’t ordering more- they can’t use the excuse of low production rates to justify these measly orders as that is entirely their fault.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 97857?s=20 ---> Currently it’s around 12/year. Will be 16/year shortly and can be ramped go to 20+/year if they are given large enough orders.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 88576?s=20 ----> If IAF had any sense they would increase this 83 to 99 and simultaneously order another 16 Mk1 FOC. That way they negate any risk of the LCA line standing still between MK1/1A and 1A/MWF switches and also give them 2 additional SQNs that they desperately need.
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