Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

[mody]

Possible solution for the air-to-air refueler problem. The latest DPP amendment has introduced the option to lease.
The refueler are the first thing that the forces are looking at, to lease.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsindi ... spartandhp

Would be good option to dry lease, as long as there are no restrictions on the use.

[Kartik]

The biggest issue with the Il-78 Midas fleet remains the same. Low availability. No wonder the IAF isn't opting for more of these even if they're cheaper than the A-330 MRTT and KC-46A.

According to an August 2017 Comptroller and Auditor General of India report, the desired serviceability of the Il-78 fleet should have been 70% by the IAF's own standards but it stood at 49% during 2010-16—barely half of the planes were available for missions at any given time during that period.

[nachiket]

So basically we have 3 refuelers for the entire Air Force. Unbelievable.

[brar_w]

^^^^
Of the longest range (400km) missile (40N6E), Vicky uncle says:

With an active radar homing head, climbs to designated altitude then guidance switches to search & destroy mode.[33]
Effective against low-altitude targets at extremely long range (below the radio horizon).[64

As soon as our AWACS sees their formation taking off, send in a few of these.

Anyway, I expect true capabilities and tactics are “classified”.

You cannot launch or provide a MCU unless the fire-control radar sees the target hence the radar horizon is relevant. So if the target goes below the horizon after initial launch or MCU then yes the missile still has a chance as it has been guided to a point where it can begin looking for the target itself. However if your targets are flying below the horizon your range is reduced accordingly. An air defense system has to engage a target, develop a fire control solution and launch an interceptor. For this to happen the engagement radar needs to see the target (at the basic level).

[V_Raman]

Russian h/w philosophy seems to be lower cost and lower availability compensated by higher numbers. If the costs escalate and comparable to western h/w - we can as well go for western h/w.

[nachiket]

If the costs escalate and comparable to western h/w - we can as well go for western h/w.

The AF already tried. They wanted the A330. Bean counters stopped that.

[V_Raman]

Does that mean the TCO of russian h/w is still lower than western h/w? or our procurement system cannot afford the high initial outlays required for western h/w?

[srai]

The biggest issue with the Il-78 Midas fleet remains the same. Low availability. No wonder the IAF isn't opting for more of these even if they're cheaper than the A-330 MRTT and KC-46A.

According to an August 2017 Comptroller and Auditor General of India report, the desired serviceability of the Il-78 fleet should have been 70% by the IAF's own standards but it stood at 49% during 2010-16—barely half of the planes were available for missions at any given time during that period.

High serviceability rates generally equates to higher spending on fleet maintenance. Indian Armed Forces of the past have been thrifty in that arena. Russian products are more maintenance intensive and don’t come with things like PBL, CMC and LCSC which are standard for Western wares. Adding these, especially 5-years 70-80% availability rates clause, increases the initial acquisition costs significantly. With limited defense budget and huge modernization requirements, the choice then becomes lesser quantities of high quality high availability versus greater quantities of cheaper lesser quality with lower availability.

...

New rules on product support will incorporate new concepts like Performance Based Logistics (PBL), Life Cycle Support Contract (LCSC) and Comprehensive Maintenance Contract (CMC).

...

[Indranil]

Does anybody know of what standard those mothballed Mig29s that IAF is trying to get originally were?

[chetak]

it may not be a parody account.

apparently, in the DPRK, credit delayed is not credit denied

When your policy doesn't allow good weed to be imported, this is the result.

DPRK News Service @DPRK_News
Pakistan returns captured pilot to India, thanks to mediation by Supreme Leader Kim Jong-Un.
11:23 PM · Mar 1, 2019·Twitter Web Client

more evidence of this weedless and godless DPRK

enough said.

DPRK News Service @DPRK_News
Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea maintains bounteous supplies of toilet paper.
11:49 AM · Mar 17, 2020·Twitter Web App

[Kartik]

Does anybody know of what standard those mothballed Mig29s that IAF is trying to get originally were?

There was a Russian blog that posted pics of what it said were stored MiG-29s that were most likely the ones to be sold to India. But even Russian posters on Keypubs forum weren't really sure where these mothballed MiG-29 airframes were from, given that most had already been built and sold to Myanmar and perhaps Syria.

So, the answer is most likely, nobody really knows.

[Indranil]

The pictures from the blog post (I think we are both speaking of the same pictures) are from 29Ks and 29Ms.

If these were Ms Mikoyan would have sold them by now. So these most probably are from the classic series, but which one? Most likely to be As to be upgraded to UPG standard

[Cain Marko]

Does anybody know of what standard those mothballed Mig29s that IAF is trying to get originally were?

They were original variants, which means the best we can get out of the bird after due upgrades will be current Baaz upgrade standard. SMT standard. No Ms or Ks.

[nachiket]

Does anybody know of what standard those mothballed Mig29s that IAF is trying to get originally were?

They were original variants, which means the best we can get out of the bird after due upgrades will be current Baaz upgrade standard. SMT standard. No Ms or Ks.

Back in 2012 RAC Mig General Director Sergei Korotkov had said that the Indian UPG is the most advanced Mig-29 variant. That is suspicious because it lacks the FBW system and the modernized lighter airframe of the M and K and the fourth weapon station on each wing. Also the M and K have the better RD-33MK engines instead of the series 3. Avionics seem to be similar. So mostly Russian propaganda to oversell the upgrade. But still they are decent 4th gen aircraft and not a bad buy IMO considering we'll be just topping up numbers of an existing type.

[Indranil]

Mig-29 UPGs are the most upgraded classical Mig29s. Very good value for money. And very very ferocious A2A platforms. Imagine the legendary aerial prowess of the Mig29As with no longer the problem of short legs and updated avionics. Very very good value for money.

A part of me says let the Mig-35s win the next 128 aircraft deal. We will only pay license fee for the airframe. We will build the airframes here in India to the latest standard. We will fit all the LRUs including the radar that will go into AMCA on these airframes. In short, we will test and optimize all these LRUs in the Mig35s. before AMCA is here.

But, this makes sense only if the decision is made today and the cost of manufacturing the airframe along with license fee is around 45 million. 25-30 million of LRUs. And you have one of the best MMRCAs around for 70-75 million a piece. None of these can happen. So it's my khayali pulao.

[nachiket]

A part of me says let the Mig-35s win the next 128 aircraft deal. We will only pay license fee for the airframe. We will build the airframes here in India to the latest standard. We will fit all the LRUs including the radar that will go into AMCA on these airframes. In short, we will test and optimize all these LRUs in the Mig35s. before AMCA is here.

But, this makes sense only if the decision is made today and the cost of manufacturing the airframe along with license fee is around 45 million. 25-30 million of LRUs. And you have one of the best MMRCAs around for 70-75 million a piece. None of these can happen. So it's my khayali pulao.

This makes no sense to me. Why not use that money to build more Tejas Mk1A's (or even better Mk2's if they can come soon enough). The Mig-35 would be inferior to the Mk1A in BVR, operational and maintenance cost and their only real advantage would be some extra payload and range (but nowhere close to a Rafale for example) and raw kinematic performance (which takes a backseat to sensors and weapons capabilities, MMI etc. these days).

The Mk2 would be superior in almost every aspect and considering how long it takes to sign a deal and set up manufacturing in India, the Mig-35 won't be getting built by HAL any sooner than the Mk2 is my guess.

[Barath]

Germany is getting rid of all its ~30 tranche 1 eurofighters for new builds. Spain and likely a few other countries might also be interested in selling some.

It is never going to happen, but what are the pro/cons of india picking up used EF Typhoons and slepping them ?

[brar_w]

but what are the pro/cons of india picking up used EF Typhoons and slepping them ?

If they were such a good value proposition why don't their operators do them? particularly when they need affordable ways to add capacity?

[Indranil]

This makes no sense to me. Why not use that money to build more Tejas Mk1A's (or even better Mk2's if they can come soon enough). The Mig-35 would be inferior to the Mk1A in BVR, operational and maintenance cost and their only real advantage would be some extra payload and range (but nowhere close to a Rafale for example) and raw kinematic performance (which takes a backseat to sensors and weapons capabilities, MMI etc. these days).

The Mk2 would be superior in almost every aspect and considering how long it takes to sign a deal and set up manufacturing in India, the Mig-35 won't be getting built by HAL any sooner than the Mk2 is my guess.

As I said before my thoughts make no sense because nothing in India moves fast. And yes, a decision like this will take the same time to arrive at as the development of MWF.

But why do you think Mig35 would be inferior to Mk1A/MWF in BVR if both have the same radar and avionics package. In fact, the Mig35 airframe can take a bigger radar too. In my khayali pullao we will be fielding, testing optimizing the AMCA's Uttam-based radar on the Mig35.

[nachiket]

But why do you think Mig35 would be inferior to Mk1A/MWF in BVR if both have the same radar and avionics package. In fact, the Mig35 airframe can take a bigger radar too. In my khayali pullao we will be fielding, testing optimizing the AMCA's Uttam-based radar on the Mig35.

Same radar? You are considering an Elta-2052 or Uttam equipped Mig-35? That integration would even further delay its induction. In fact the Mig-35 is such an incomplete and half-ready product its induction will be delayed no matter what you do. If you are going to buy a foreign aircraft at this stage it needs to be one which is already ready to be bought/built as is with no/minimal IAF specific changes. No point wasting time doing modifications and upgrades MKI style. If you're going to do that, might as well just wait for the MWF.

[Indranil]

MWF and AMCA prototypes are not going to be ready for avionics/radar testing till 2025 and 2030 AT LEAST. If airframes were present today, we could start integrating and testing these LRUs from tomorrow.

[RKumar]

MWF and AMCA prototypes are not going to be ready for avionics/radar testing till 2025 and 2030 AT LEAST. If airframes were present today, we could start integrating and testing these LRUs from tomorrow.

We are still years away from signing any deal and add couple of years of delay in delivering the materials and add couple of years of tot screwgiri. It will make sense MoD and IAF put their money and efforts on MWF and AMCA, unless you tell me there is no light on the other side of the tunnel - in respect to above two programs. Even in that case, I will prefer to stick with Tejas MK1 and MK1a. We can build these around 20-24 per year if MoD wants, we are lacking govt will here. Buying second hand junk like Mig-29 or euro fighter, these planes can’t be maintained by OEM countries how the hell India is going to maintain? Sometimes, I feel to pull my hairs with such thought processes... zero self respect and zero self confidence

[ks_sachin]

MWF and AMCA prototypes are not going to be ready for avionics/radar testing till 2025 and 2030 AT LEAST. If airframes were present today, we could start integrating and testing these LRUs from tomorrow.

We are still years away from signing any deal and add couple of years of delay in delivering the materials and add couple of years of tot screwgiri. It will make sense MoD and IAF put their money and efforts on MWF and AMCA, unless you tell me there is no light on the other side of the tunnel - in respect to above two programs. Even in that case, I will prefer to stick with Tejas MK1 and MK1a. We can build these around 20-24 per year if MoD wants, we are lacking govt will here. Buying second hand junk like Mig-29 or euro fighter, these planes can’t be maintained by OEM countries how the hell India is going to maintain? Sometimes, I feel to pull my hairs with such thought processes... zero self respect and zero self confidence

You say that about Indranil???

[RKumar]

You say that about Indranil???

Holly crap ... no. It is on the line of thinking, nothing personal.

[Barath]

but what are the pro/cons of india picking up used EF Typhoons and slepping them ?

If they were such a good value proposition why don't their operators do them? particularly when they need affordable ways to add capacity?

Difference between advocacy and trying to get a perspective, for academic purposes

And I'm not sure Germany has the same concerns as india. The Austrian experience is likely a significant datum point., and some points are obvious

Guess you are essentially asking me to work it out myself. Ok. Fair enough.

[Picklu]

MWF and AMCA prototypes are not going to be ready for avionics/radar testing till 2025 and 2030 AT LEAST. If airframes were present today, we could start integrating and testing these LRUs from tomorrow.

And a few as Kaveri testbed; pretty please

[brar_w]

Difference between advocacy and trying to get a perspective, for academic purposes

And I'm not sure Germany has the same concerns as india. The Austrian experience is likely a significant datum point., and some points are obvious

Germany's decisions will be for the post 2025 environment. They are notoriously slow in codifying decisions after declaring their intentions. As in it can take 3-4 year for them to be sealed once announced. Those Tranche 1 Phoons will be extremely difficult to make relevant to a post 2030 type of multi-role capability given the technical challenges and the residual life left that will impact what you spend on them. It is best to avoid building the IAF fleet up by buying 20 used types here, 30 used types there, especially when if required the country could get behind increasing long term LCA and MWF numbers if the need is so urgent.

[Barath]

Thank you

[srin]

As I said before my thoughts make no sense because nothing in India moves fast. And yes, a decision like this will take the same time to arrive at as the development of MWF.

But why do you think Mig35 would be inferior to Mk1A/MWF in BVR if both have the same radar and avionics package. In fact, the Mig35 airframe can take a bigger radar too. In my khayali pullao we will be fielding, testing optimizing the AMCA's Uttam-based radar on the Mig35.

On paper, the Mig-35 is the strongest. Only if - we can make any changes we want in future, we get knowledge of every aspect of the design, have access to all the test data, able to source components/spares from local suppliers, get enough access to the avionics to replace the radar whenever Uttam got ready, and replace the smoky (the new ones also smoke a bit, IMO) engines with Kaveri or any similar class new engine we make, ability to integrate any missile we want - and that's only the technical aspects. And no SKD/CKD business - we get to build as many as we want, maybe 36, maybe 126, whatever.
And then, we want Russians to be sincere about it and not pull an FGFA on us. And we need to sign it quickly.
And we needed this to happen 10 years ago.
Now, with Tejas Mk2 moving to MWF category, and TEDBF/AMCA on the cards and every deal with Russians taking a few years to negotiate, does it still make sense ?

[Indranil]

You say that about Indranil???

Holly crap ... no. It is on the line of thinking, nothing personal.

That's all fine guys. Thank you Sachin sahab and Kumar sahab. Made me smile.

Kumar sahab, all I am saying is khayali pulao. I am not advocating buying second hand maal. IAF is not buying second hand maal. The Mig29s that it is getting are new builds. New built Mig-29 UPGs at $40-45 million a piece is a steal! It is an excellent buy. No wonder IAF is excited about it.

What I was saying is buy the khali airframe from Russia. Mig29 M khali airframe is excellent. In terms of aerodynamics it is right up there! MWF cannot match it. It is almost at par with EF and Rafale. LRUs including of radar we will fit. The ones that we will fit in the AMCA. So, when AMCA airframe comes along, we will actually be fielding tried and tested maal to an untested airframe. It will shorten the test times significantly.

[nachiket]

What I was saying is buy the khali airframe from Russia. Mig29 M khali airframe is excellent. In terms of aerodynamics it is right up there! MWF cannot match it. It is almost at par with EF and Rafale. LRUs including of radar we will fit. The ones that we will fit in the AMCA. So, when AMCA airframe comes along, we will actually be fielding tried and tested maal to an untested airframe. It will shorten the test times significantly.

Few aircraft can match the Mig-29 in raw kinematic performance, not even the Su-30. But we would have to integrate every piece of avionics ourselves - Uttam Radar, RWR, SPJ, cockpit displays, mission computer, weapons, Litening LDP integration (if it is to have any multirole capability) etc. This will take years, even if we got the airframes tomorrow, which we won't. Because these airframes don't even exist yet. Will have to be newly built. This will become a new MKI project which makes no sense at this stage for an aircraft of the Mig-29's size and capability.

We don't need resources, time and attention diverted to any of this. Just buy 1 or 2 more squadrons of Rafales (whatever we can afford) along with the 21 partially built Mig-29's modified to UPG standard and let ADA and HAL concentrate on Tejas Mk1A and MWF. No big order for Mig-29M's please. MWF does not need to match it in aerodynamic performance. The Mirage 2000 cannot match it either, but the IAF consistently finds a lot more use for its M2k's than the 29's somehow. As a complete weapon system, the MWF will be better than the M2k and certainly better than the Mig-29M. We can make the Mig-29M as good as the MWF by putting everything from the MWF on it, but that is running two complex projects in parallel. Who can do that in India? HAL is not getting money for stuff they've already done. Best not overburden them.

[Cain Marko]

I think Indranils point hinges on the MRCA 2.0 going through, which most "normal" people feel it shouldn't and won't. But that is not the point.

I would agree that IF there was enough $s for trueblue mrca that is totally good to go at the outset, Rafale is the best.

I would also agree if someone pointed out that eurocanards are impossibly expensive and US fighters are prone to sanctions. Hence large number procurements of these are a no go.The Gripen might have worked but now is a serious challenger to the homegrown Tejas, hence again, a no-go. Which indeed leaves the MiG-35. And for all the reasons Indranil had pointed out in his fantasy, it would be the most viable MRCA candidate.

Finally, the other argument is that there is no need for 128 additional birds at all. Just buy some used, cheap birds until LCA variants start to come in large numbers. With which too I would agree. But this is not something that the IAF is very eager to do. It WANTS those 114 MRCA irrespective. Maybe, just maybe it knows something that aramchair warriors like yours truly don't

[Indranil]

Okay, okay! Let's stop discussing my thoughts which have zero chances of coming to life. Nachiket, all I was saying is that manufacturing a well established airframe is much faster designing, testing and certifying a completely new aircraft. So if a quick decision is made, we could have started integration of the LRUs very quickly. But let's give this a rest!

[mody]

I for one would have cooked my khayali pullao around the mothballed Mig-29s. These are most likely old Mig-29A versions, with unused airframes. However, everything else about them, will have to be changed to get them to the Mig-29UPG standard. This would mean the radar, the cockpit (would have the original Russian cockpit), the engines and many other LRUs. The D29 EW suite would be added by us. Imagine, if we can put in the cockpit as is being designed for MWF or based on the concepts shown for Tejas-SPORT. Even the updated cockpit design being developed for the Tejas MK1A would be great. The radar would be the Uttam Aesa, with DASH HMS. Get the OLS-35/OLS-13SM-1 IRST from the Su-35/Mig-35 program with Litening -IV LDP for air to ground ops, if required. Mission computer based on project Vetrivel and Tejas. And last but not the least, the icing on the khayali cake, GE-F414-EPE/EDE engines, license built in India, in place of the old RD-33 engines. The thrust to weight ratio would be unbelievable, with much better fuel fraction and very high reliability of the engines. This would be the ultimate Fulcrum, with nothing but Thurst Vectoring engines, as the missing piece. The weapons would include the R-27-RF and IR versions, Astra MK1/MK2, R-73E and SFDR (whenever that gets ready). Air to ground weapons would include the Griffin-III LGBs, NGARM, SAAW and any other precision guided weapon that India develops in the future.
Using the old mothballed airframes, helps in keeping the costs down and airframes are available immediately.

The engine change can also be applied the Mig-29Ks and that would solve a lot of the shortcomings of the plane. The much higher thrust would allow the plane to take off from the carrier with much more payload and the engines are much more reliable and require much less maintenance.

[Zynda]

So, read on IRDW that one of the items in next year's IAF budget is upgrading the engines & avionics on existing Il-76/78MKI fleet to match Il-476. With the economic impact of COVID-19, I think the budget for forces will be severely strained and big ticket items like new refueling A330 based aircrafts will have to wait. If IRDW is right, probably that's why decision to upgrade existing Il-76 based fleet to improve availability.

[Rahul M]

>> read on IRDW

That's your first mistake. Second is to discuss it on brf. Idrw is not kosher on brf. Please don't link to it or post/discuss stuff from it.
--------------
mody, the engine thing might not be entirely khayali pulao. Not the epe but as I posted in the Mk2 thread, we are in discussions on licence manufacturing the 414. As per Gp. Capt. Thakur.

[brar_w]

From my understanding, some sort of mfg was a requirement for the program which down-selected the G-414. The problem is that the original 99 engine deal has not yet been completed so once that is finalized this element should be in it.

[Rakesh]

Drag & Drop pictures into new window for full size.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 52962?s=20 ---> Mirage 2000s in South Africa circa 2004. The maiden long distance international deployment was a superb exposure for the Gwalior boys!!!

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 61379?s=20 ---> Atlas Cheetahs (modifies Mirage IIIs with Israeli help).

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 73601?s=20 ----> The Cheetahs had one of the best EW suite flying at that time.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 50338?s=20 ---> The PAF owes a lot to the South Africans, including initial BVR (R Darter evaluation/adoption), H2/H4 stand-off weapons and learning the ropes on AAR (Air to Air Refuelling).

[mody]

>> read on IRDW

That's your first mistake. Second is to discuss it on brf. Idrw is not kosher on brf. Please don't link to it or post/discuss stuff from it.
--------------
mody, the engine thing might not be entirely khayali pulao. Not the epe but as I posted in the Mk2 thread, we are in discussions on licence manufacturing the 414. As per Gp. Capt. Thakur.

Rahul, the khayali pulao was mostly for getting the GE-F414 engines on the Mig-29s. The size and weight of the engine is almost comparable with the RD-33 engines. Imagine getting the GE engines on the Fulcrums. The performance would be out of the world. The thrust to weight ratio would be unreal. Especially if matted on the newer lighter airframes. For us if we can get them on the Mig-29Ks, then it would solve some of the issues that we are facing. The engines are much more reliable and the maintenance requirement would be much lower. The engines have been used with the F-18s on carriers for a long time. Plus the extra thrust would solve the issue of payload when taking off from carriers. Also, the GE engine is more frugal as compared to the RD-33s and hence the on station time would also be improved. For the IAF Mig-29UPG, with the humpback design, the internal fuel capacity has already been increased. With a less fuel guzzling engine, the range or on station time would not remain a limitation for the Mig-29s. That pretty much takes care of most of the short comings of the Mig-29s.
The only question is, if this khayali pulao, can ever become a reality.

[MeshaVishwas]

Good watch.My pranaams to the VayuSena.