Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Apr 2020 01:34

John wrote:
kit wrote:Does anyone know the exact condition / specifications of the 3 Russian subs on order ? , are they hulls being rebuilt or are they used and mothballed ones or used and refurbished ? .. without such info how do we make an informed judgement / opinion on that deal ?
I doubt even Russia knows fully amount of work involved and condition of the hull, like Gorshkov only after we sign the dotted lines will we start finding out. Keep in mind this is the deal that is being pushed by Russia.

If we fall for that again, we will deserve the suffering we will undoubtedly endure. Fool me once...

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 08 Apr 2020 02:47

TWITTER

ChampakBhumia e Kashmir wrote:

@PMOIndia Don't buy used 2and hand Russian 'Kilo Class Submarines' they will cheat/milk us like they did with Gorshkov Carrier. They offered for 700 million but later raised price to 2.3 billion dollars @rajnathsingh don't be fooled by Russian offer.

https://twitter.com/ChampakbhumiaE/stat ... 44768?s=19

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Apr 2020 04:16

Yes,the Russians know nothing about subs.Rubin ,makers of Kilos, has built only a thousand so far. We've been operating the upgraded Chakra-2 for almost a decade now and want two more upgraded Akulas!
We have a different govt. now ,6 years on. I would imagine that the GOI/ MOD under our hands-on a PM who chases after the details and the v.capable DM Rajnathji, know the score with Russia .MP too knew it when he said plan B was an option ordering more MKIs if the Rafale's costs were exorbitant. All major navies worldwide are not dumping their older assets,but upgrading and improving them to accommodate the latest tech. plus weaponry. Air forces too.Why are we upgrading our 54+ M2Ks then?

The USN converted old Ohio class SSBNs into SSGNs,carrying dozens of LRCMs.New surface vessels are to get new weaponry.
The Kilos on offer will come in at half the price of a new sub.With the new arrivals we will be able to kerp 8+ in a high operational state of readiness,that too carrying newer sensors,eqpt. and missiles and would be operational beyond 2030 too. We desperately require extra subs to deal with the Sino- Paki threat, and it has been made a higher priority for the IN than CV no.3 ( CDS).

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 08 Apr 2020 05:09

^700 million to 2.3 billion Gorshkov saga. Bloody cheats hooked us with cheap offer and later extorted 2.3 billion dollars.

They'll do same with 2nd hand old rusty kilos.

Our shipyard is running production line for Scorpenes, we should give our shipyard another order of 3 Scorpenes so production in India gets boost. Not throwing money at extortionist Russians.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Apr 2020 05:16

chola wrote:We could still buy the kilos but I hope we've learnt something from the first time.

Don't buy used Kilos, just buy 3 brand new ones i.e. the Type 636.3 variant.

At a mid-life refit ---> install an updated USHUS sonar, Varunastra torpedoes, DRDO batteries, DRDO developed AIP, etc.

If the Navy is not interested in 3 more Scorpenes, then just buy six Type 636.3 boats for around $2 billion. Why waste billions more for unobtanium? If you sign a deal now, I can guarantee all six boats (3 Scorpenes + 3 Type 636.3 boats OR six Type 636.3 boats) will be commissioned before the end of this decade. Wait for Project 75I to reach completion, the first boat will not even be ready before 2030.

And refit those 3 Kilos in service now, with the DRDO developed AIP and Varunastra torpedoes. Use them as test beds for future boats. I know DRDO batteries are installed on the Indian Kilos and I believe the USHUS sonar is as well.

* There is an acute submarine shortage, but I want only the latest and greatest. So I will float a tender, get all the interested parties to participate and put in their bids, then we shortlist, then we will open negotiations, then we will sign a contract. Waste billions of FOREX and waste time.

* We need a third aircraft carrier, but we want EMALS, nuclear power, 57 carrier borne fighters, etc. Same story as above. Waste billions of FOREX and waste time. Just churn out another Vikrant Class vessel. Fly TEDBF, Naval LCA Mk1 and MiG-29K off them. Lay the keel now and she will be ready by 2030. Wait for unobtanium and do not expect the vessel before 2040.

I really do not get the Navy.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Apr 2020 05:20

Manish_Sharma wrote:Not throwing money at extortionist Russians.

Everyone is extorting India. You want that to stop? Then develop your own boat. But that will take time. The Indian Navy needs boats and FAST.

Project 75I should be an amalgamation of lessons learnt from Scorpene and Kilo designs. That was the original plan. Six western boats (Project 75) and six Russian boats (Project 75I). The next six were to be an upgraded indigenous design. Let Project 75I be that.

For now go in for 3 Scorpenes + 3 new Kilos or just six Kilos.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Apr 2020 05:25

Indranil wrote:Read the comments above all the way up to the links that Rakesh shared. What information has come about in these posts. If you guys want to argue with opinions, I am going to bow out. In fact, I am gone!

IMVHO, that is a bad idea. You need to speak up.

Ignore the opinions, everyone has one! Please state the facts. The ones who want to learn will get it.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 08 Apr 2020 05:29

Manish_Sharma wrote:^700 million to 2.3 billion Gorshkov saga. Bloody cheats hooked us with cheap offer and later extorted 2.3 billion dollars.

They'll do same with 2nd hand old rusty kilos.

Our shipyard is running production line for Scorpenes, we should give our shipyard another order of 3 Scorpenes so production in India gets boost. Not throwing money at extortionist Russians.

when we got the ghorshkov, it was the only deal in town with no other country willing to sell us what we wanted.

The times have changed and our supplier base has widened.

If the russkis rook us again, the India market will be lost to them for a very long time and they might never be a supplier again.

Besides we need to keep them sweet for the leased akulas and the chakras.

May be we can leverage this kilo deal into fast tracking other stuff. The kilos scare the hell out of the western navies for sure and in this part of the world, the kilos pack a mean punch against the pakis and the hans.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Apr 2020 13:28

Adm.Raks, perhaps the Kilos mentioned are those that Ru have kept in reserve,hulls,etc. in good condition. The innards will be almost completely gutted with new eqpt. right from scopes,sonars,engines, weaponry,etc.,etc. Saving $100+M in the bargain. 3 of theirs and 3 of ours. Thats $600 to $900 M extra if they were new and at least $200-300 M a boat if they were western. A lot of moolah saved, easier to induct,training,support,spares,etc. The Rus have perfected building new Kilos one every two years.It's what I suggested around a decade+ ago. Time and realisation is excruciatingly long when it vomes to our MOD. Asininely piad extra for batch 2 of Talwars offered at the same price for a long time.

From the report,it appears that the P-75I deal may see a decisiononly a few years from now,with the first sub arriving only around 2007.By then Pak will have gotten 8 brand new Yuan AIP subs from China in adition to its 4 AIP Agosta 90B subs.
Why I maintain that we should similarly explore a G-2- G desl with Germany to replace our 4 U- boats with newer models.until this is finalised, MDL can build if need be 2 more Scorpenes

John · Post by **John** » 08 Apr 2020 18:42

Philip wrote:Time and realisation is excruciatingly long when it vomes to our MOD. Asininely piad extra for batch 2 of Talwars offered at the same price for a long time.

Stop the name calling and making up things. 2nd batch of Talwar cost the same as first batch and extra cost was for changes (Brahmos) the deal was held up because of Russia insisting on more $$$ and refusal to pay for delays with 1st batch. First batch was 1 billion and 2nd batch was 1.1 billion FYI. And yes there was cost escalation due to VAT and delays due to potential bankruptcy with 2nd batch as well.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Apr 2020 20:31

Philip, it would be preferable to go in for new build Type 636.3 boats (even if it is more expensive than a used Type 877EKM). Used and Russian in the same sentence is a bad idea. If Vietnam can get six of them for $1.8 billion, I don't see why the IN cannot get the same.

The Vietnamese can't stand the Chicom. And the Myanmar Navy just got a Kilo Class boat from India. Working and partnering with the Vietnamese and Myanmar navies is a good opportunity for India's Look East policy to counter Chinese military influence in the Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean. Three navies all operating the same boat. Also good business opportunities for HSL (Hindustan Shipyard Ltd) to provide refit and maintenance for these Kilo boats of the Indian, Myanmar and Vietnamese navies.

All things considered, a fairly good deal. I am not discounting the Kilo boat, just would prefer to go in for brand new versus used. Same story with the redesigned Lada Class. Stay away from that vessel.

Used Kilo Class = Gorshkov
Unproven Lada Class = MiG-29K/KUB

Stay away from both. Go with the tried and true Type 636.3 Kilo Class boat.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Apr 2020 21:11

Look at the map below and see where Myanmar and Vietnam are in relation to China.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Apr 2020 21:15

Look at this video. Watch the whole thing. Not very long. Around 8 minutes onlee.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 08 Apr 2020 22:49

^ Very nice video, Krasnodar incident is super impressive.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 09 Apr 2020 15:59

The last 877 entered service in 1994 but I'm quite sure she's not for sale yet. Likely candidates would be the ones laid up waiting for repairs or already under repairs. That will mean Yaroslavl (North Fleet, under repairs since 2016), Alrosa (Black Sea Fllet,under repairs since 2014) and Saint Nicholas (Pacific Ocean Fleet, under repairs since 2011, mothballed in 2014, laid up for scrapping in 2019). All three were built in 1988-1989. There are a couple of 877 in the North also waiting for scrapping but they are a bit older, from 1984.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 09 Apr 2020 16:27

Manish_Sharma wrote:^ Very nice video, Krasnodar incident is super impressive.

Could you pls. elaborate on the same. Were the russians not confident that the sub would not be detected all the way? Suppose we buy old Kilos from Russia.. how are they going to be transported to our shores?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 09 Apr 2020 19:48

Manish_P wrote:
Could you pls. elaborate on the same. Were the russians not confident that the sub would not be detected all the way? Suppose we buy old Kilos from Russia.. how are they going to be transported to our shores?

Same way 'Sailing Surfaced'. Iirc circa 2012 - 13 Sindhurakshak Submarine was upgraded by Russia and it was sailing on surface when a storm came. During that storm Egypt help us by allowing us to dock Sindhurakshak.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Apr 2020 20:37

SNaik wrote:The last 877 entered service in 1994 but I'm quite sure she's not for sale yet. Likely candidates would be the ones laid up waiting for repairs or already under repairs. That will mean Yaroslavl (North Fleet, under repairs since 2016), Alrosa (Black Sea Fllet,under repairs since 2014) and Saint Nicholas (Pacific Ocean Fleet, under repairs since 2011, mothballed in 2014, laid up for scrapping in 2019). All three were built in 1988-1989. There are a couple of 877 in the North also waiting for scrapping but they are a bit older, from 1984.

Thank you sir for this info. Is there any value in these used boats?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 09 Apr 2020 20:46

Ok

Was it escorted by IN/Russian navy surface vessels, to mask it's signature?

While sailing on surface with reduced signals might be good, but advances in computing technology would still give listening SIGINT/ELINT snooping ships some data to compute possible sub-surface signatures.

Better if the trip was submerged most of the way, but the extremely large distance and the lower endurance of the non-nuclear system renders that option out.

A possible option to consider, if it was available, was to transport it on a heavy lift ship. Again the huge distance involved would have made that unlikely

Best way would be assembly here in Desh, of course.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 09 Apr 2020 21:59

SNaik wrote:The last 877 entered service in 1994 but I'm quite sure she's not for sale yet. Likely candidates would be the ones laid up waiting for repairs or already under repairs. That will mean Yaroslavl (North Fleet, under repairs since 2016), Alrosa (Black Sea Fllet,under repairs since 2014) and Saint Nicholas (Pacific Ocean Fleet, under repairs since 2011, mothballed in 2014, laid up for scrapping in 2019). All three were built in 1988-1989. There are a couple of 877 in the North also waiting for scrapping but they are a bit older, from 1984.

In other words they are targeting to sell us the worst of their lot.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Apr 2020 22:43

SNaik wrote:The last 877 entered service in 1994 but I'm quite sure she's not for sale yet. Likely candidates would be the ones laid up waiting for repairs or already under repairs. That will mean Yaroslavl (North Fleet, under repairs since 2016), Alrosa (Black Sea Fllet,under repairs since 2014) and Saint Nicholas (Pacific Ocean Fleet, under repairs since 2011, mothballed in 2014, laid up for scrapping in 2019). All three were built in 1988-1989. There are a couple of 877 in the North also waiting for scrapping but they are a bit older, from 1984.

Thank you sirjee. Informative as always!

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 09 Apr 2020 22:52

Rakesh wrote:
SNaik wrote:The last 877 entered service in 1994 but I'm quite sure she's not for sale yet. Likely candidates would be the ones laid up waiting for repairs or already under repairs. That will mean Yaroslavl (North Fleet, under repairs since 2016), Alrosa (Black Sea Fllet,under repairs since 2014) and Saint Nicholas (Pacific Ocean Fleet, under repairs since 2011, mothballed in 2014, laid up for scrapping in 2019). All three were built in 1988-1989. There are a couple of 877 in the North also waiting for scrapping but they are a bit older, from 1984.
Thank you sir for this info. Is there any value in these used boats?

Much depends on the hull state, especially in the battery compartments, which is the most corrosive area. Otherwise, installing Indian or upgraded Russian equipment shouldn't be much different from what the Indian Kilo's are getting already. I may be wrong on my estimates and Russians may offer a bit newer boats, especially from PO Fleet which is going to get 6 of the new 06363 boats, but, as I already pointed out, there's not much of a difference between old and a bit less old.

Transporting the boats by heavy lift ships shouldn't be a problem, at least it wasn't a problem for China and Vietnam to get their Kilo's that way.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 09 Apr 2020 23:01

Rakesh wrote:
Indranil wrote:Read the comments above all the way up to the links that Rakesh shared. What information has come about in these posts. If you guys want to argue with opinions, I am going to bow out. In fact, I am gone!
IMVHO, that is a bad idea. You need to speak up.

Ignore the opinions, everyone has one! Please state the facts. The ones who want to learn will get it.

Sameer P Lalwani@splalwani·Mar 11
“India’s Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat announced last month that India will prioritize submarines over its third aircraft carrier.”

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Apr 2020 16:58

chetak wrote:
Rakesh wrote: IMVHO, that is a bad idea. You need to speak up.

Ignore the opinions, everyone has one! Please state the facts. The ones who want to learn will get it.

Sameer P Lalwani@splalwani·Mar 11
“India’s Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat announced last month that India will prioritize submarines over its third aircraft carrier.”

Prioritze means that the aircraft carrier is not off the list but below subs in the line of acquisition., also means some funding will go to it due to the build time required.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 10 Apr 2020 18:50

kit wrote:
chetak wrote:

Prioritze means that the aircraft carrier is not off the list but below subs in the line of acquisition., also means some funding will go to it due to the build time required.

there is a lot of behind the scene dynamics that are playing out as usual.

over the years, if a true account of events is ever given, it will make one's blood run cold.

don't be taken in by the "ceremonial" swords that are sometimes carried by the senior guys.

They are not meant for show.

Adm joshi did not resign and go home because his grandmother was yearning to see him.

some want the carrier and some others do not and not all of them are from the same service.

BTW, they are speaking bureaucratese and not english.

Prithwiraj · Post by **Prithwiraj** » 10 Apr 2020 19:16

With current oil prices at historical low Russians are getting badly hurt. If we cant get q bargain price now from them we never will. Across all hardware platforms the primary objective of Putin will be to protect jobs rather than earning profit. Keep the factories, shipyards humming.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 10 Apr 2020 19:30

somdev wrote:Indian Navy submariners have familiarity in operating and maintaining Kilo class for years. They probably just don‘t want to be starting from scratch in an entire new sub. The trade off in terms of capability of improved Kilos vis-a-vis others and keeping in mind the steep learning curve is probably considered.

these may be short term measures to address the real time underwater capability gap while waiting for better options (either indigenous or imported) to crystalize.

since we cannot match the hans in the number of ships being built, it may well be worth our while to beef up the defenses to check them.

Three more operational subs is quite a significant jump in capability.

These subs, if actually operationalized by India will not really have much of residual life remaining so they may end up being used for spares and training at the fag end of their useful lives so they will continue to serve in one way or another even at end of life.

the previous govt will not be able to explain why they let the IN come to this sorry pass and the present one will take time to build up capacity once again to the desired force levels.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 10 Apr 2020 20:01

If navy decides to buy a set of submarines today it will be inducted my 2025 to 2030 and used upto 2055 to 2060, for that period kilos would be Stone age platform, we need something like this. To be relevant in 2055:

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Apr 2020 22:48

somdev wrote:Indian Navy submariners have familiarity in operating and maintaining Kilo class for years. They probably just don‘t want to be starting from scratch in an entire new sub. The trade off in terms of capability of improved Kilos vis-a-vis others and keeping in mind the steep learning curve is probably considered.

Still doesn't explain why we are interested in refurbished 80's era rusting 877 hulls instead of newly built 636.6 ones.

John · Post by **John** » 10 Apr 2020 23:30

nachiket wrote:
somdev wrote:Indian Navy submariners have familiarity in operating and maintaining Kilo class for years. They probably just don‘t want to be starting from scratch in an entire new sub. The trade off in terms of capability of improved Kilos vis-a-vis others and keeping in mind the steep learning curve is probably considered.
Still doesn't explain why we are interested in refurbished 80's era rusting 877 hulls instead of newly built 636.6 ones.

The deal was proposed by Russia, Putin needs $$ selling a used one not in service is pure profit for him.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Apr 2020 05:10

Philip wrote:Yes,the Russians know nothing about subs.Rubin ,makers of Kilos, has built only a thousand so far. We've been operating the upgraded Chakra-2 for almost a decade now and want two more upgraded Akulas!

Makers of thousands of Kilos somehow also managed to make a complete pig's breakfast of the Amur/Lada class. Only hideous incompetence can cause that despite having the advantage of decades of experience building submarines of all kinds.

Anyway, issue here is buying old rusting Project 877 Kilos instead of newly built 636.6 ones. Putin needs to be told to either sell us the new stuff at a reasonable price or go suck a lemon.

Better yet, spend some of that money on integrating and testing the DRDO AIP on Scorpenes and build more of them. Even the new Kilos won't come with AIP and we don't want yet another program to integrate the same AIP with a completely different diesel submarine design (if it is even possible).

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 11 Apr 2020 14:17

One mango question/view - If we have design details and docs of two kids of subs - One from Germany and one from France with us and we have exposure to making them plus have a large number of systems already designed and made by us by ourselves why were are hesitating to go ahead with design and built our own subs. True it will take some serious delay but it is a must for us to start design and make pure local one immediately so that when we retire the older subs we have our own one to replace them. Look at what we could do with Bofors designs we kept hidden for decades.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Apr 2020 15:09

Yagnasri wrote:One mango question/view - If we have design details and docs of two kids of subs - One from Germany and one from France with us and we have exposure to making them plus have a large number of systems already designed and made by us by ourselves why were are hesitating to go ahead with design and built our own subs. True it will take some serious delay but it is a must for us to start design and make pure local one immediately so that when we retire the older subs we have our own one to replace them. Look at what we could do with Bofors designs we kept hidden for decades.

Or integrate Indian designed systems in the currently being built boats. Till the domestic design doesn't become fully developed.

PS if the French can develop a conventional version of the Barracuda. Why can't the Arihant have a conventional version with Brahmos instead of ballistic missiles?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 11 Apr 2020 16:44

^japan will grovel to White Australia to sell Soryu.

But won't sell to fellow Asians.

Also its frame life is only 16 years after that you have to discard it. Our forces like sturdy platforms that can be extended for 30 to 40 years.

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Apr 2020 17:06

Manish_Sharma wrote:^japan will grovel to White Australia to sell Soryu.

But won't sell to fellow Asians.

Also its frame life is only 16 years after that you have to discard it. Our forces like sturdy platforms that can be extended for 30 to 40 years.

Japs are poor sales people in comparison with the French. The Aussie deal looks like the backdrop of an international wheeler dealer intrigue, a plot worthy of a thriller. Anyway hows the Shinmaywa deal going

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Apr 2020 17:08

OT but the Navys case for the 65k AC makes sense than a 100k dream one

https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-int ... 89.article

John · Post by **John** » 11 Apr 2020 20:01

somdev wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:^japan will grovel to White Australia to sell Soryu.

But won't sell to fellow Asians.

Also its frame life is only 16 years after that you have to discard it. Our forces like sturdy platforms that can be extended for 30 to 40 years.
Japan has reservations for ToT and make in India. Hence the reluctance IMHO

Source? From what I understand our lack of funds is what killed US-2I deal?

John · Post by **John** » 11 Apr 2020 21:16

somdev wrote:Late Jaitleyji had been to Japan as RM before handing over to NS. The joint statement of Modiji and Abe did not cover the ToT aspect. Exposure to Russians remains the thorn on Japanese side hence reluctance to do ToT or local manufacturing of subs

Even if Japan agrees for ToT there is no $$ for US-2I which all said and done will cost over 2 billion.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 11 Apr 2020 21:39

somdev wrote:Thyssenkrupp yet to successfully demonstrate lithium-ion battery on Type 212A but probably top of their list

https://engineered.thyssenkrupp.com/en/ ... rformance/

Last of the two of the Soryus also have this.
It is not late for us to go along this path. The late Sindhurakshak hull was a perfect oppertunity to experiment this technology. A static test bed in which all Lead acid battery are replaced with lithium ion ones. We could have had the data for each and every section's power consumption.
Next available oppurtunity is as and when the second hand kilos arrive for retrofitment of desi systems. Companies like Ather, TATA motors and many others will only be happy to share their expertise in lithium ion power electronics. This is a very low hanging fruit with enormous benefits in long term. We can even commercialize the technology as retrofit to existing kilos and scorpenes of other countries.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 11 Apr 2020 23:28

arvin wrote:
somdev wrote:Thyssenkrupp yet to successfully demonstrate lithium-ion battery on Type 212A but probably top of their list

https://engineered.thyssenkrupp.com/en/ ... rformance/
Last of the two of the Soryus also have this.
It is not late for us to go along this path. The late Sindhurakshak hull was a perfect oppertunity to experiment this technology. A static test bed in which all Lead acid battery are replaced with lithium ion ones. We could have had the data for each and every section's power consumption.
Next available oppurtunity is as and when the second hand kilos arrive for retrofitment of desi systems. Companies like Ather, TATA motors and many others will only be happy to share their expertise in lithium ion power electronics. This is a very low hanging fruit with enormous benefits in long term. We can even commercialize the technology as retrofit to existing kilos and scorpenes of other countries.

Second this. Lithium Ion batteries are a phenomenal upgrade for de subs and upgrading the kilos with the same is a great idea and a low hanging fruit. The advantages are far too many to list. It will triple quiet running time. It can halve the time spent snorkeling if the diesel plant is also upgraded. Using appropriate chemistry in the cells (lower the power density to increase stability) and appropriate packaging (use pouch cells, that swell up when damaged for easy inspection and removal), its possible to enhance safety as well. We lost one sub and a dozen sailors due to a hydrogen explosion.

If we cant even grab this low hanging fruit ...