Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Apr 2020 15:52

They will all get unrestricted. I wish, I could AK could have pushed Muthanna sir a little more about the top left corner of the envelop. All we know is that it is at 8G. I wanted to know the corner speed.

I know that Muthanna sir was extremely happy after his first flight. The aircraft behaved better than he expected.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 07 Apr 2020 16:41

Khalsa wrote:Here it is, the full version.

Superb!!!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Apr 2020 20:42

Khalsa wrote:Here it is, the full version.

Okay, that is going on Page 1!

Watching the Tejas team speak makes any jingo proud!

LCA - Leadership, Commitment and Achievement. Just beautiful acronym coined by the Tejas team.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Apr 2020 03:34

Indranil wrote:They will all get unrestricted. I wish, I could AK could have pushed Muthanna sir a little more about the top left corner of the envelop. All we know is that it is at 8G. I wanted to know the corner speed.

I know that Muthanna sir was extremely happy after his first flight. The aircraft behaved better than he expected.

But the IOC jets that No.45 Squadron took to LIMA and did the demo flights with, seemed to be pulling 8Gs. Or was it only 6Gs that they were pulling due to FCS software restrictions on max AoA?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Apr 2020 04:31

Ananth missed out on a golden opportunity to ask questions about total cycle time for assembly of a jet, the number of jets to be produced this year and going forward, risks for the program, the capability additions on the FOC jets software wise..And what the plans are for Astra integration and so on. The mid-board pylon is now a clear indication that the Derby BVRAAM will be available.

He also completely missed out on asking what work is being done on the Mk1A, the status of modifying a LSP prototype to function as a Mk1A prototype, the expected date for Mk1A first flight, etc.

Ananth has his heart in the right place, but really wish someone with a BRF jingo background would get to do such a program and ask all those questions. With so many HAL engineers and management at the same place, a lot of questions on the future of the program could've been answered.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 08 Apr 2020 05:15

Kartik wrote:Ananth missed out on a golden opportunity to ask questions about total cycle time for assembly of a jet, the number of jets to be produced this year and going forward, risks for the program, the capability additions on the FOC jets software wise..And what the plans are for Astra integration and so on. The mid-board pylon is now a clear indication that the Derby BVRAAM will be available.

He also completely missed out on asking what work is being done on the Mk1A, the status of modifying a LSP prototype to function as a Mk1A prototype, the expected date for Mk1A first flight, etc.

Ananth has his heart in the right place, but really wish someone with a BRF jingo background would get to do such a program and ask all those questions. With so many HAL engineers and management at the same place, a lot of questions on the future of the program could've been answered.

Depends on what he wanted out of this. He knows the answers to the questions above but this was not a prog on the LCA itself but more on the people with the SP21 readiness and the first flight as a key backdrop.
I thought he achieved that superbly. Also, some of the BRF wish lists may not be open source (I am not saying that it is confidential but you know how govt bodies are) and hence people may not be prepared to talk on camera or want clearance etc. As a human interest piece on the LCA prog, it nailed...All the BRF Jingo wishlist is for a small minority...

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 08 Apr 2020 06:20

I hope that someone will eventually write the definitive bible on Tejas development - all the trials & tribulations, design, development, testing & induction, replete with gorgeous pictures, tech details and in-depth interviews with designers, test pilots, etc.

Maybe we can incept the idea into Jagan Mohan, Sameer Chopra, etc. The personnel involved are retiring and moving on, and it would be critical to capture their thoughts and memories while still fresh.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 09 Apr 2020 16:15

It is very heartening to see the HAL team both young and old, men and women and their passion and the pride that they have on the birds that they are producing. Very impressive!!

Rolled out the first bird in 13 to 14 months of signing shows that HAL team is beating records and not lagging behind, but may be the lag is elsewhere like bureaucracy, planning etc.

He got great access to produce this Video and he did a good job in asking the relevant questions for the people present there. Decent points on quality and With Rafale the gold standard claiming 6 sorties per day, would have liked to know what LCA team thought of sorties per day and how they support that.

One of the gentleman was saying that there seems to be lot of focus on how many aircrafts can be delivered in a year as that seems to be what they are being asked for, though they did not answer, 8 is what they said they delivered per year. If Tejas numbers have to hit 24 to 30 a year, we need to at least build one more such team as that takes time.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Apr 2020 19:13

Any gurus know what formalities are there in signing such a contract? Can it be done in any other way?

https://twitter.com/thewolfpackin/statu ... 45505?s=21 —> Final signing of 83 Tejas Mk1A contract between IAF & HAL delayed due to #Covid19 crisis.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Apr 2020 21:24

Rakesh wrote:Any gurus know what formalities are there in signing such a contract? Can it be done in any other way?

https://twitter.com/thewolfpackin/statu ... 45505?s=21 —> Final signing of 83 Tejas Mk1A contract between IAF & HAL delayed due to #Covid19 crisis.

No reason for such a delay, should be cleared early- it is an essential service- far more important than TV channels and newspapers

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 11 Apr 2020 03:59

For Tejas mk1a the clean takeoff weight is 9900kg and external payload of 3600kg.

The mid wing station on the wing carying jammer pod on outer wing station can carry twin derby er on twin rack launcher while other wing only single derby er can be carried as the outer wing station carries two ccm reducing available width.

Thus 3 deby er + 2 ccm + 2* 1200 litre EFT + 725 litre centre line EFT + optronic pod can be carried which will give max possible range and endurance.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 11 Apr 2020 04:10

If 2*1360 litre EFT are caried in place of 2*1200 litre EFT then optronic pod will have to removed to keep external payload under 3600kg.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Apr 2020 20:22

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/124 ... 05056?s=20 ---> Some ask: 'why must India invest more in Defence R&D?' Well, the ventilator design that Skanray-BEL is building in the several thousands came out of DRDO's work on an On-board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS) developed for the LCA-Tejas program.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Apr 2020 08:20

sankum wrote:If 2*1360 litre EFT are caried in place of 2*1200 litre EFT then optronic pod will have to removed to keep external payload under 3600kg.

Sanku sir, that 3,600 kgs is not a strict limit. They have already flown with 3,900 kgs.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 12 Apr 2020 13:46

Thanks, tested for MTOW 13.8 T.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 12 Apr 2020 15:48

Rakesh wrote:Any gurus know what formalities are there in signing such a contract? Can it be done in any other way?

https://twitter.com/thewolfpackin/statu ... 45505?s=21 —> Final signing of 83 Tejas Mk1A contract between IAF & HAL delayed due to #Covid19 crisis.

19 march approval was only DAC approval, after that, cabinet committee on security still had to approve

https://www.dailypioneer.com/2020/page1 ... h-ccs.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_C ... n_Security

At least a couple of members of the CCS (home minister, PM, FM, ) and probably more might have been otherwise preoccupied.

So my guess is that that, approval and/or the physical contract signing may be the delay

There would be ways to get it done if it had sufficient priority to warrant it.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 12 Apr 2020 17:22

What is the point of signing when most of the activities are stopped? People who are supposed to work on MK1 and MK1A are in lockdown. But it is good for overworked people and give them a break to sit back n think about the issues from different angles which may not be possible before.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Apr 2020 02:22

sankum wrote:Thanks, tested for MTOW 13.8 T.

Yes. In multiple configs.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 13 Apr 2020 11:23

Su-30 MKI and LCA Tejas

https://t.co/6qttYalgcp

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 13 Apr 2020 15:23

great pic! thanks

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 13 Apr 2020 18:54

Indranil wrote:
sankum wrote:If 2*1360 litre EFT are caried in place of 2*1200 litre EFT then optronic pod will have to removed to keep external payload under 3600kg.
Sanku sir, that 3,600 kgs is not a strict limit. They have already flown with 3,900 kgs.

As more Tejas are inducted, I am sure, performance envelope will be pushed as much as possible. I also have a question:-

What's the payload limit of mid board pylon? Is there any possibility it can carry 1000-1100kg? Otherwise Tejas cannot carry EFTs while carrying 2000 pounders.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 13 Apr 2020 20:21

2*1360 litres EFT on inner wing pylons+ 900kg PGM on fuselage centre station + LDP+ 2 BVR AAM on mid wing stations = 3900kg external payload.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Apr 2020 00:47

How do you calculate weight of the EFT itself? What would be the weight of an empty 1360l tank vs 1200l tank?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Apr 2020 00:50

Indranil wrote:
sankum wrote:If 2*1360 litre EFT are caried in place of 2*1200 litre EFT then optronic pod will have to removed to keep external payload under 3600kg.
Sanku sir, that 3,600 kgs is not a strict limit. They have already flown with 3,900 kgs.

That is almost equal to the max payload of a Mig-27!

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 14 Apr 2020 01:01

As a ballpark roughly 10 % of the total weight is that of tank. Composite tanks used in Tejas will be lighter.
1360 litre* 0.791= 1075 kg fuel + 125 kg empty tank weight= 1200kg . The designed weight carrying capacity of inner wing weapon station which is increased to 1500 kg to carry Brahmos ng.
For 1200litre it is 950 kg fuel + 110kg tank =1060 kg.
Old data. Indranil may be having the latest data.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Apr 2020 06:25

Thank you sankum sir.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Apr 2020 06:32

Indranil wrote:
sankum wrote:Thanks, tested for MTOW 13.8 T.
Yes. In multiple configs.

How is it broken down? 6500kg empty weight + 2450kg internal fuel + 3900kg external payload (EFT's and weapons) gives us around 12,850 kg. That leaves 950 kg for the pilot, oxygen tanks plus other miscellaneous stuff. Is that much necessary or can we perhaps increase payload even further without exceeding 13.8 tonnes (or reducing internal fuel)?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Apr 2020 06:58

The Tejas can be an excellent replacement for the Mig-27 which is now retired but was our primary CAS aircraft for decades. It wasn't meant to be a Mig-27 replacement but I believe it (Mk1) has become a good one going even beyond just the payload values.

The Mig-27 carries 2000kg more internal fuel. But it is also heavier by 5400kg empty than the Tejas. Plus its R-29 engine is both less efficient and significantly more powerful at the same time than the Tejas' F404. This translates to much higher fuel consumption. Finally, it has no aerial refueling capability. Ergo, the Tejas will have a higher effective combat radius than the 27 with the same payload.

The max payloads as we have seen above are nearly the same. In addition to this, the Tejas has the advantage of Litening pod integration with a dedicated station for the same and a modern radar with air-to-ground modes. The Mig-27 lacks all of this. And it is easy for us to integrate whatever new weapons that we want to with it since we won't be dependent on a foreign OEM for the same.

Ofcourse the biggest advantage is actually something the Tejas does not have, which is this:

What are worst things about the MiG-27?

“In my opinion, it is the only fighter which has ‘engine explosion’ as a standard aircraft emergency.”

https://hushkit.net/2018/08/15/flying-a ... mig-pilot/

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 14 Apr 2020 08:06

Sorry for the OT but my younger brother was with flying Mig27 before he came to academy. He had some choicest words for the craft...Used to call it biggest underperformer in IAF.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Apr 2020 11:13

The MiG-27 had the highest attrition rate of all IAF fighters, right behind its predecessor the MiG-23. Useful only for the strike role and not much else. Even the Jaguar is more flexible than the Flogger ever was.

HVT mentioned on Twitter he shot down a MiG-23MF in DACT, while flying a Jaguar. Could’ve been due to an inexperienced MF pilot but nevertheless highlights how limited the type was in general.

Su-30s or Tejas equipping former MiG-27 squadrons would give a quantum leap in capability.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Apr 2020 11:55

Mig 27 was era where we want cheap and numbers, it had huge deficiencies- I only hope we can Salvage those GSH 30 gatling cannons and use them on the LOC etc. They could be useful for Army/BSF.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 14 Apr 2020 12:04

Did Mig-27 have limited armour plating for its role in CAS?

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 14 Apr 2020 17:48

nachiket wrote:
Indranil wrote: Yes. In multiple configs.
How is it broken down? 6500kg empty weight + 2450kg internal fuel + 3900kg external payload (EFT's and weapons) gives us around 12,850 kg. That leaves 950 kg for the pilot, oxygen tanks plus other miscellaneous stuff. Is that much necessary or can we perhaps increase payload even further without exceeding 13.8 tonnes (or reducing internal fuel)?

Clean takeoff weight is fighter internally equiped along with weapon station pylons and 2 CCM .

Officially the the clean take off weight of Tejas mk1 is 9800kg and that of Tejas mk 1a is 9900kg.

The 100 kg addition is due to jammer pod permanently carried on Tejas mk1a outerwing station.

Breakup ball park figures for Tejas mk1 is

Empty weight: 6500kg
Internal fuel: 2500kg
Pilot: 100kg
Cannon ammunition: 65kg
Chaff/flare: 35 kg
Pylons: 300kg
2 CCM with launchers: 300kg
Total: 9800kg

For Tejas mk1a
Jammer pod: 100kg
CTOW: 9900kg
External payload: 3900kg
MTOW: 13800KG.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Apr 2020 23:27

Some heavy configs flown:
2*1200 ltr tanks + 2 LGB + LDP +2*CCM = 2*1200*0.8*1.1+ 2*500+200+2*100 = 3.5 tons
4 bombs in tandem carriage + 2*800 ltr tanks + LDP +2*CCM= 4*450+2*800*0.8*1.1+200+2*100 = 3.6 tons
1*725 centerline tank + 6*450 kg bombs + LDP + 2*CCM = 3.74 tons
2*1200 ltr tanks + 1*725 centerline tank + 2*450 kg bomb + LDP + 2*CCM = 2*1200*0.8*1.1+725*0.8*1.1+2*450+200+2*100 =4.05 tons

Planned:
1*725 centerline tank + 2*1200 ltr tanks + 2 LGB + LDP +2*CCM = 1.1+725*0.8*1.1+2*1200*0.8*1.1+ 2*500+200+2*100 = 4.15 tons
1*725 centerline tank + 4 bombs in tandem carriage + 2*800 ltr tanks + LDP +2*CCM= 1.1+725*0.8*1.1+4*450+2*800*0.8*1.1+200+2*100 = 4.25 tons
There are plans for Brahmos NG as well, but I can’t judge that as too many unknown variables at the moment.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 15 Apr 2020 00:56

IR Sir - This is great combination, again being a swing role aircraft this looks like the menu of *darshini, our Group Captains and Commodores will have an interesting set of choices to make when going out on a bomb truck.

Sir if possible can you also specify what is possible with no drop tanks but a pure air superiority role with AAR in place, would be interesting to see the missile loadout options, makes very intersting sense when in a potential "operation shitty retort" scenario.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 15 Apr 2020 01:18

Those are some impressive loadouts. Should shut down naysayers questioning the payloads of the Tejas.

suryag wrote: Sir if possible can you also specify what is possible with no drop tanks but a pure air superiority role with AAR in place, would be interesting to see the missile loadout options, makes very intersting sense when in a potential "operation shitty retort" scenario.

I'm not IR, but since the centerline station cannot carry AAM's there is no reason to omit the 725l centerline tank in a pure air-to-air config. So the best possible config would be 725l centerline tank + 4 Derbys/Astras + 2 R-73s/ASRAAMs. When the dual rack outer pylon is developed and integrated, an SPJ pod will be added to that loadout.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Apr 2020 02:43

^^^
710liter supersonic tank when ready (instead of the 725liter centerline)

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Apr 2020 02:52

Indranil wrote:Some heavy configs flown:
2*1200 ltr tanks + 2 LGB + LDP +2*CCM = 2*1200*0.8*1.1+ 2*500+200+2*100 = 3.5 tons
4 bombs in tandem carriage + 2*800 ltr tanks + LDP +2*CCM= 4*450+2*800*0.8*1.1+200+2*100 = 3.6 tons
1*725 centerline tank + 6*450 kg bombs + LDP + 2*CCM = 3.74 tons
2*1200 ltr tanks + 1*725 centerline tank + 2*450 kg bomb + LDP + 2*CCM = 2*1200*0.8*1.1+725*0.8*1.1+2*450+200+2*100 =4.05 tons

Planned:
1*725 centerline tank + 2*1200 ltr tanks + 2 LGB + LDP +2*CCM = 1.1+725*0.8*1.1+2*1200*0.8*1.1+ 2*500+200+2*100 = 4.15 tons
1*725 centerline tank + 4 bombs in tandem carriage + 2*800 ltr tanks + LDP +2*CCM= 1.1+725*0.8*1.1+4*450+2*800*0.8*1.1+200+2*100 = 4.25 tons
There are plans for Brahmos NG as well, but I can’t judge that as too many unknown variables at the moment.

Pictures of first two configs:

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 15 Apr 2020 03:02

Why is the LDP necessary in the second config? Those are dumb bombs right? Shouldn't the radar's a-to-g mode be enough for a CCIP/CCRP drop?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Apr 2020 03:22

The Litening is not used just for lasing targets. It has a FLIR camera and HDTV color camera that generate high resolution images that help pilots spot and ID targets. Great for target detection and tracking of stationary targets. Is also very useful for Battle Damage Assessment, after the strike is completed.