China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

[chola]

Interesting. SU-35 and the latest chini ripoff the J-16 lost in their yearly "top gun" exercise to the J-10C.

Chini flankers getting clobbered again by smaller fighters.

The J-11As that lost to the Thai Gripens had older cassegrain radar sets and R-77. The J-16 and SU-35 are supposed to sport AESA and modern missiles.

Wonder if there is anything to be learnt here. The huge RCS of the Flanker might be such a big disadvantage that it can't be overcome by carrying a larger radar?

https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDei ... 9770407939

@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
According to PLA's official media, the J-10C has won the PLAAF's "Golden Helmet-2019" air combat competition in the group of 4.5th-generation fighters including J-16 and Su-35S.

[Manish_P]

With the hit on their industry it won't hurt to increase the sales prospect of the J-10C wot?

[Prithwiraj]

Can we stop peddling Chinese craps ...? It is all optics and nothing else...Let them handle Corona first... high density population always vulnerable to these outbreaks... We need to be careful.....

[kit]

https://www.janes.com/article/95029/chi ... deployment


Upgraded Haiyi (Sea Wing) underwater gliders deployed from a Chinese government scientific research vessel on 11 December 2019 have successfully conducted an underwater survey expedition in the East Indian Ocean, the company responsible for manufacturing the gliders announced in late March.

The Tianjin-based Deepfar Ocean Technology Company (Deepfar) claimed that all 12 of its second-generation Haiyi long-range gliders deployed as part of the Ministry of Natural Resources’ (MNR’s) Joint Advanced Marine and Ecological Studies (JAMES) expedition were recovered by the state-owned survey/research ship Xiang Yang Hong 06 on 30 January, representing a cumulative 550 days of continuous operations at sea and a completed navigational distance of more than 6,479 n miles.

“The 12 Haiyi gliders – equipped with a variety of biological, hydrological, and chemical sensors – performed a co-operative survey within a 300×300 n mile observation area,” the company said in a statement. “[The gliders also] logged more than 3,400 survey profiles and obtained large amounts of hydrological data including temperature, salinity, turbidity, and oxygen content.”

According to Sublue, marine observation data collected by the gliders was transmitted by Xiang Yang Hong 06 to shore-based command centres via satellite communications (satcom), enabling scientists to examine the dynamic interactions and processes of underwater phenomena in real-time.

The research vessel subsequently returned to port in the eastern city of Zhoushan on 12 March, marking the conclusion of the JAMES expedition.

Comparable in physical form to the US-made Teledyne Webb Slocum gliding autonomous underwater vehicle (AUV), the Haiyi features a torpedo-shaped main body constructed from aluminium alloy or carbon fibre composite material and features a pair of swept wings.

The nose of the pressure hull contains the underwater glider’s buoyancy engine and depth control systems, with the mission payload and control unit located in the middle

[Barath]

https://www.belfercenter.org/publicatio ... sual-guide

Harvard Kennedy School has issued this paper on the strategic posture of India and China.

Rick Joe, regular contributor to The Diplomat and editor of PLARealTalk.com and a long time follower of China via open source analysis has suggested that

> I think this piece is too focused on "comparing forces" in the region and doesn't first ask the question of what each side's actual military objectives may realistically be. Trying to articulate a military balance without considering realistic objectives makes the entire comparison moot.

> Some of their assumptions seem a bit dubious to me, ranging from comparative quality of aircraft to comparative quality of pilot training, to assumptions about the availability of air bases in a time leading up to war, and also declining to consider the totality of each side's conventional strike capability.

> ... I would argue on the contrary that it's very mainstream opinion that Indian military conventional forces during normal peacetime technically outmatches and outmasses what the PLA fields in the region across the border.

Even so, the level of detail means it is a publication worth reading, even with all the caveats.

[titash]

https://www.belfercenter.org/publicatio ... sual-guide

Harvard Kennedy School has issued this paper on the strategic posture of India and China.

Rick Joe, regular contributor to The Diplomat and editor of PLARealTalk.com and a long time follower of China via open source analysis has suggested that

> I think this piece is too focused on "comparing forces" in the region and doesn't first ask the question of what each side's actual military objectives may realistically be. Trying to articulate a military balance without considering realistic objectives makes the entire comparison moot.

> Some of their assumptions seem a bit dubious to me, ranging from comparative quality of aircraft to comparative quality of pilot training, to assumptions about the availability of air bases in a time leading up to war, and also declining to consider the totality of each side's conventional strike capability.

> ... I would argue on the contrary that it's very mainstream opinion that Indian military conventional forces during normal peacetime technically outmatches and outmasses what the PLA fields in the region across the border.

Even so, the level of detail means it is a publication worth reading, even with all the caveats.

The author's overt agenda, based on this paper and a previous one they were for thebulletin, can be summed up in 1 line:

"Life isn't as bad as you Indians think; chill and don't produce more nukes or nuclear subs"

Important to keep that agenda in mind before re-reading their analysis and recommendations. It's a bit like Rana Ayyub's recommendations on addressing Muslim sensitivities.

[vsunder]

^^^ The "Birgadier sahib" mentioned in this article seems like Brig. Gurmeet Kanwal who is the father of that cretin Rahul Kanwal the TV anchor. Kanwal pere had done some time in Sandia Labs in Albuquerque NM, thinking and tanking. Just before he passed away a few weeks ago, Kanwal wrote an article before Trump's visit that advocated Indian boots on the ground in Afghanistan. So..... In India everyone and everybody pretends to be in the loop in UP language "source lagao yaar" and so the Belfer center article also says "one retired Birgadier who is in the loop". Maybe the Belfer people want to say, do not worry so hard with China, you are strong. We need less of nooklear and more Indian boots in Afghanistan to stabilize. Waiting for that shoe to fall soon.

After all in the 1970's and through the 1990s these experts claimed that IAF doctrine was Russian with a controller directing everything and devoid of initiative. There is a famous story of a visiting US military delegation to South Block when Sundarji was CAS. Sundarji opened the door to his toilet and said "It is here I keep my Russian controller". Why does one give credence to such gasbags?

[chola]

Haven't posted here in a long time!

Recognition identifiers on the J-10. This thing is on its third mark, C.

The strange thing is the C variant switched over to WS-10 from the AL-31 in the later batches. The difference in engine should warrant a new mark but isn't so perhaps the basic design allows for the installation of either engine.

[Kartik]

Keep an eye out- this thing might have been sold to the Pakis.

China's Norinco announces first export of HJ-12E ATGW system

The China North Industries Corporation (Norinco) announced on 25 March that it has completed deliveries of its Red Arrow 12E ('Hongjian-12E', or HJ-12E) man-portable anti-tank guided weapon (ATGW) system to a foreign customer.

The company said via its WeChat account that the move marked the first export of its third-generation ATGW but did not provide any details about the contract value, the identity of the customer, or the number of systems exported.

The HJ-12E is the export variant of the HJ-12, which is presumed to be in service with China's People's Liberation Army Ground Force.

A full-scale mock-up of the system was first shown at the 2014 Airshow China, with a company spokesperson telling Jane's at the time that the HJ-12, which weighs up to 22 kg and uses a 1.25 m-long launch tube, is the first man-portable ATGW system to be fully developed in China.

The spokesperson claimed that it is also the first Chinese ATGW system to feature a fire-and-forget capability, enabling operators to withdraw swiftly after a missile launch and improve their survivability. The system also has a soft-launch capability that allows for the missile to be launched within confined spaces such as within a building or a bunker.

According to Jane's Land Warfare Platforms: Firepower, Survivability & Mobility the HJ-12 has similar capabilities to the widely deployed and combat-proven US Raytheon/Lockheed Martin Javelin man-portable ATGW system.

The missile of the HJ-12 system has a diameter of 140 mm and is fitted with a tandem, high-explosive, anti-tank (HEAT) warhead that is claimed to be able to penetrate up to 1,100 mm of rolled homogenous armour (RHA) protected by explosive reactive armour (ERA).

22 kg is a heavy system for it to be called man-portable.

[chola]

Chini LHD aflamed!

https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDei ... 7553941504

@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
According to several eyewitnesses a fire broke out this morning on the 1st PLAN Type 075 LHD, which is currently being fitted out at the Hudong shipyard in Shanghai.

It seems as if the fire was quickly put out but how it will affect the ship's schedule is not clear now

[chola]

Rookie Bird
@rookie_bird_
Replying to
@RupprechtDeino
Ho Lee Fuk

[srai]

...

China's Norinco announces first export of HJ-12E ATGW system
...
22 kg is a heavy system for it to be called man-portable.

Checking Wiki ... all up weight inclusive of targeting sight. Weight is similar to Javelin and Spike-MR.

[Prithwiraj]

China suffered two long march rocket launch failure within a month. Google it please for content as I lost password for desktop and posting this from mobile

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04 ... n-a-month/

Managed to paste from mobile but it is painful

[chola]

^^^ Seems like the virus is eroding their efficiency or at least their ability to censor the inefficiencies. lol

Fire on their brand new LHD and multiple rocket failures with a month's time never happened (reported) in the past despite insanely large launch numbers.

[chola]

Interesting. The JL-9 is basically a MiG-21. A MiG-21 that can take off and land on a carrier?

https://mobile.twitter.com/AnankeGroup/ ... 2365744130

Ananke Group
@AnankeGroup
China modified an old JL-9 fighter jet to create a training aircraft for pilots who will serve on the country’s newest aircraft carrier Type 002, which will be fitted with an electromagnetic catapult (like the USS Gerald Ford) | cc

[Kartik]

China's GAIC reveals first export order for FTC-2000G

China's Guizhou Aviation Industries Corporation (GAIC) has received its first export order for the locally developed FTC-2000G advanced jet trainer (AJT)/light-attack aircraft.

The stated-owned Xinhua News Agency reported on 19 April that the order was placed in early 2020 by an undisclosed Southeast Asian country, with delivery of the "first batch" of aircraft expected to be take place in 2021. No details were provided about the contract value or the number of platforms on order.

"It took less than two years … from the first flight to the signing of the first export order with a certain Southeast Asian country," said GAIC Chairman Wang Wenfei on 16 April, with other media outlets also quoting him as saying that "this is an unprecedented speed in the history of AVIC's made-for-export warplane development".

The announcement came after the first series-produced FTC-2000G, which appears to be based on the GAIC JL-9G two-seat supersonic turbojet-powered trainer operated by the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN), conducted its maiden flight on 28 September 2018.

The flight took place only a few weeks after Xinhua had reported that GAIC was series-producing the twin-seat platform in the southern Chinese city of Anshun "to meet the demands from the international market".

The Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), which markets the locally developed platform, has stated that the FTC-2000G has a top speed of Mach 1.4 (or 1,728 km/h), a maximum take-off weight of 11 tonnes, a maximum range of 1,650 km (internal fuel), and an operational flight ceiling of 15 km.

The 15.4 m- long and 4.8 m-high aircraft, which is reportedly capable of staying airborne for two hours in a single operation (using internal fuel), is equipped with "modern radar and fire-control systems", can be fitted with up to seven hardpoints, and has a maximum payload capability of 3,000 kg, according to the manufacturer.

See how warped the publicly revealed specifications are? There is no way Chinese figures can be believed.

1650 km range on internal fuel for a fighter that has a MTOW of 11 tonnes and carries less fuel than a Tejas Mk1 and has a TURBOJET WP-13F engine that is 2 generations behind the F-404 and has higher fuel consumption. Clearly physics doesn't apply here. The WP-13F Turbojet engine is basically a Chinese variant of the R-13 turbojet on the MiG-21! Can also stay airborne for 2 hours without having mid-air refueling capability.

the FTC-2000G is a twin seater, which means that 1 fuel tank is less than on a comparable single seater. It is no bigger than a Tejas, and is basically an evolved MiG-21 as is obvious by looking at it's lines. The intakes have been relocated to the sides to create space for a bigger radar. The wing is modified with a larger area to increase lift and internal fuel, but the tailplanes are a MiG-21 replica.

It'll be cheap, with relatively modern cockpit display, watered down avionics and a decent radar. Definitely doesn't have a full FBW.

It's Prodyut Das's wet dream come alive. a MiG-21 variant that'll fly on for another 30 years.

[Kartik]

FC-31 2.0

Expect this to be the likeliest candidate for the PAF's Project Azm 5th gen program.

[Indranil]

Interesting. The JL-9 is basically a MiG-21. A MiG-21 that can take off and land on a carrier?

https://mobile.twitter.com/AnankeGroup/ ... 2365744130

Ananke Group
@AnankeGroup
China modified an old JL-9 fighter jet to create a training aircraft for pilots who will serve on the country’s newest aircraft carrier Type 002, which will be fitted with an electromagnetic catapult (like the USS Gerald Ford) | cc

I love it. You have to give to the Chinese. They know how to keep it simple when required.

The wings of the JL-9 are completely new. In addition to the LERXs, and the slats, the wing itself is new. Lower sweep with rounded edges. Pretty sure that the wing is much thicker than the 6% wings on the Mig21. It is an AJT, so slow speed handling at moderate AoA must be a requirement. It has retained the large fin from the Mig21, so must have good stability. Ideal for a carrier borne trainer.

On the other hand, one has to ask are the JF-17s and J-10s lemons?

[Vivek K]

I admire their belief in themselves. If something goes wrong they don’t start chest beating and running to FranRuss but come out with a new type.

That is the way out for India. If India keeps importing .......

[chetonzz]

China's GAIC reveals first export order for FTC-2000G

China's Guizhou Aviation Industries Corporation (GAIC) has received its first export order for the locally developed FTC-2000G advanced jet trainer (AJT)/light-attack aircraft.

The stated-owned Xinhua News Agency reported on 19 April that the order was placed in early 2020 by an undisclosed Southeast Asian country, with delivery of the "first batch" of aircraft expected to be take place in 2021. No details were provided about the contract value or the number of platforms on order.

"It took less than two years … from the first flight to the signing of the first export order with a certain Southeast Asian country," said GAIC Chairman Wang Wenfei on 16 April, with other media outlets also quoting him as saying that "this is an unprecedented speed in the history of AVIC's made-for-export warplane development".

The announcement came after the first series-produced FTC-2000G, which appears to be based on the GAIC JL-9G two-seat supersonic turbojet-powered trainer operated by the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN), conducted its maiden flight on 28 September 2018.

The flight took place only a few weeks after Xinhua had reported that GAIC was series-producing the twin-seat platform in the southern Chinese city of Anshun "to meet the demands from the international market".

The Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), which markets the locally developed platform, has stated that the FTC-2000G has a top speed of Mach 1.4 (or 1,728 km/h), a maximum take-off weight of 11 tonnes, a maximum range of 1,650 km (internal fuel), and an operational flight ceiling of 15 km.

The 15.4 m- long and 4.8 m-high aircraft, which is reportedly capable of staying airborne for two hours in a single operation (using internal fuel), is equipped with "modern radar and fire-control systems", can be fitted with up to seven hardpoints, and has a maximum payload capability of 3,000 kg, according to the manufacturer.

See how warped the publicly revealed specifications are? There is no way Chinese figures can be believed.

1650 km range on internal fuel for a fighter that has a MTOW of 11 tonnes and carries less fuel than a Tejas Mk1 and has a TURBOJET WP-13F engine that is 2 generations behind the F-404 and has higher fuel consumption. Clearly physics doesn't apply here. The WP-13F Turbojet engine is basically a Chinese variant of the R-13 turbojet on the MiG-21! Can also stay airborne for 2 hours without having mid-air refueling capability.

the FTC-2000G is a twin seater, which means that 1 fuel tank is less than on a comparable single seater. It is no bigger than a Tejas, and is basically an evolved MiG-21 as is obvious by looking at it's lines. The intakes have been relocated to the sides to create space for a bigger radar. The wing is modified with a larger area to increase lift and internal fuel, but the tailplanes are a MiG-21 replica.

It'll be cheap, with relatively modern cockpit display, watered down avionics and a decent radar. Definitely doesn't have a full FBW.

It's Prodyut Das's wet dream come alive. a MiG-21 variant that'll fly on for another 30 years.

just for information...

[chola]

Interesting. The JL-9 is basically a MiG-21. A MiG-21 that can take off and land on a carrier?

https://mobile.twitter.com/AnankeGroup/ ... 2365744130

I love it. You have to give to the Chinese. They know how to keep it simple when required.

The wings of the JL-9 are completely new. In addition to the LERXs, and the slats, the wing itself is new. Lower sweep with rounded edges. Pretty sure that the wing is much thicker than the 6% wings on the Mig21. It is an AJT, so slow speed handling at moderate AoA must be a requirement. It has retained the large fin from the Mig21, so must have good stability. Ideal for a carrier borne trainer.

On the other hand, one has to ask are the JF-17s and J-10s lemons?

Well, take it this way. The PLAAF didn't want the JF-17 and sold it to the Pakis. It didn't generate much orders outside of Pakiland -- a handful here and there (Burma and Nigeria, if not mistaken.) Now Cheen is putting up a cheaper alternative in this new MiG-21 which is already cutting into the Blunder's sales prospects.

The J-10, I don't know. It hasn't sold internationally but the PLAAF has like 500 of them and it's in its third iteration in the C and has a new local engine in the WS-10. That's a pretty successful (and ongoing) production run. But compared to its peers in other countries (F-16, Rafale, Typhoon) it might well be a lemon. I would put up 60 Rafales against 120 J-10s any day. But probably not 60 against 500.

[chola]

FC-31 2.0

Expect this to be the likeliest candidate for the PAF's Project Azm 5th gen program.

This thing is dependent on their WS-13 and WS-19 projects. And the WS-13 is only an interim. Unlikely they'll get what they need from the RD-93 they have on the JF-17.

I admire their belief in themselves. If something goes wrong they don’t start chest beating and running to FranRuss but come out with a new type.

That is the way out for India. If India keeps importing .......

More like multiple new types. The amount of fighter-esque designs they are building right now is insane -- JL-8 (K-8), JL-9 (FTC2000), JL-10 (L-15), J-10C, J-11B, J-15, J-16 and J-20A. They also build JF-17 parts for Pakis to assemble and paint.

And the FC-31 will eventually come into production.

Chinis make good use of their cheap labor on both the design and manufacturing fronts. If you have excess people why not use them?

Now who else has a billion plus teeming humans with cheap labor costs?

[RKumar]

^ And we call IAF circus, China has left us miles behind with their Ant workforce

Only positive side with China is they have domestic types while we have exotically imported ones from all over the world.

[chola]

^^^ Now who wants to go to a zoo with nothing but 10 different kinds of pandas?

I rather visit one with lions, tigers and bears ...

[Mollick.R]

^^^ Now who wants to go to a zoo with nothing but 10 different kinds of pandas?

I rather visit one with lions, tigers and bears ...

Superlike

[RKumar]

^^^ Now who wants to go to a zoo with nothing but 10 different kinds of pandas?

I rather visit one with lions, tigers and bears ...

I would prefer to call those fierce and magical creatures called Dragons (non-existing) than cute existing Pandas

[RKumar]

Vs



Vs

[chola]

^^^ Now who wants to go to a zoo with nothing but 10 different kinds of pandas?

I rather visit one with lions, tigers and bears ...

I would prefer to call those fierce and magical creatures called Dragons (non-existing) than cute existing Pandas

But Kumar ji, they actually are named dragons this and that!

FC-1/JF-17 is Fierce Dragon, J-20 is Mighty Dragon and J-10 is Vigorous Dragon (this must be the one that is good in bed.)

It is so stupidly cliched! Who would have thought real Chinese people would be naming their stuff dragon this and dragon that? But they really did!

[Kartik]

China's GAIC completes assembly of modified naval variant of JL-9 trainer aircraft

China's Guizhou Aircraft Industry Corporation (GAIC) has further fuelled speculation that it is developing a trainer aircraft suitable for carrier deck landings by announcing on 20 April via its Weixin social media site that it has assembled the first airframe under its 'Sea Mountain Eagle' project in record time.

The Weixin post relates to an aircraft for the People's Liberation Army Navy Air Force (PLANAF) and describes the rapid assembly of components to complete the first airframe, but gives no further detail about the aircraft and avoids any mention of carrier operations.

A little over a month earlier, on 16 March, GAIC had indicated via Weixin that it was working on a project of major importance. It illustrated the post with a computer-generated image (CGI) of a JL-9 trainer overflying one of the PLAN's aircraft carriers, with the state-owned Global Times newspaper reporting on speculation that this would be a trainer that could take off from and land on the PLAN's carriers.

China will use a modified MiG-21/J-7 derivative as a naval trainer whereas the IN has a true blue 4th gen fighter it can use as a naval trainer in the N-LCA Mk1 that is already tested and qualified.

Yet, no orders for even 8 of those N-LCA Mk1 twin seaters to form an OCU for the IN.

[chola]

Interesting picture. That's a lot of AShMs on a med helo. Z-9 is basically a licensed Dauphin. The IN is looking at the AS565 Panther which is from the lineage for NUH.

@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
Still rarely seen PLAN Naval Aviation Z-9D helicopters armed with four YJ-9 AShMs.

[chola]

China will use a modified MiG-21/J-7 derivative as a naval trainer whereas the IN has a true blue 4th gen fighter it can use as a naval trainer in the N-LCA Mk1 that is already tested and qualified.

Yet, no orders for even 8 of those N-LCA Mk1 twin seaters to form an OCU for the IN.

Hopefully that would change. The Navy has enough trust to allow the trapping and recovery of NP-2 and NP-1 aboard the Vikramaditya. Think about it, that is the only operational carrier we have right now. (Come on Vikrant!) If the Navy is willing to carry out the trials then I have to trust them on their decision on the NLCA -- either in the affirmative or negative. It would be different if they never gave the NLCA a chance. They took risk to allow the tests so if even if they decided to shelf NLCA, I would trust their judgement.

[srai]

Interesting picture. That's a lot of AShMs on a med helo. Z-9 is basically a licensed Dauphin. The IN is looking at the AS565 Panther which is from the lineage for NUH.

@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
Still rarely seen PLAN Naval Aviation Z-9D helicopters armed with four YJ-9 AShMs.

AgustaWestland AW159 Wildcat

[chola]

^^^ Yeah no chance for Wildcat after the Leonardo VIP helo scandal. A much more powerful and expensive machine than the Panther. It would be more in competition with the MH-60R that the IN reserved for the high end role. NUH is for a more affordable craft for the whole fleet. The Panther/Dauphin/Z-9 is the basic utility and ship-borne helo type for a lot of navies.

[chola]

Satellite photo of XAC factory grounds on March 27, 2020. Y-20s and H-6s:

[chola]

Interesting development on the construction of their 003 carrier. Looks like they will use a barge that will pull aboard the superblocs on rails and then transport them to a massive 560m drydock (for comparison, CSL built the Vikrant in a 270m drydock and will be getting a 310m one.)

https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDei ... 1397293059

@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
It seems as if that strange part spotted at the Jiangnan Shipyard in the drydock no. 4, is indeed the floating barge under construction to transport the Type 003 carrier blocks from its current site to the drydock for final assembly.



@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
... and not only the number rails but also of these connections fit nicely.

https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexLuck9/st ... 1963564032

Alex Luck
@AlexLuck9
An excellent shot via SDF posted by
@RupprechtDeino
that gives us a very good idea about the dry-dock presumably to be used for final assembly of Type 003 CATOBAR carrier. Total length of dock is 560 metres, width 80 metres. The dock segment the barge is in measures 350 metres.

[Larry Walker]

How are we supposed to defeat or even hold-up a Chinese assualt ?? With the amount of hardware that they can throw at us, we need to be superman each time and they need to be lucky just once.

[chola]

^^^ Geographically and geopolitically impossible for them to throw more than 5 to 10% of their hardware at us.

The chinis are just as paranoid of Amreeka as we are of them. So the vast majority of their military will always be clustered eastward even if they can move that stuff over mountains and across seas.

The truth is we outnumber them at least 10 to 1 along the Tibetan border (I've seen even higher ratios) and they have at most 8 ships in the IOR at any given time versus the entire Indian Navy.

But they do present a good goal post for our development. The reason we are seeing this industrial might from them is they made it their mission to match Unkil a decade ago. We could do the same with them.

[Vivek K]

How are we supposed to defeat or even hold-up a Chinese assualt ?? With the amount of hardware that they can throw at us, we need to be superman each time and they need to be lucky just once.

Indians = (Ostriches)^n!
Larry - a very good point. China has the capability to produce weaponry in massive amounts. India with its lust for imports cannot make even a fraction of that and to top it all wastes money in appeasing Russia and others with expensive junk. The purchases of the Ka-226, T-90, Talwars, Mig-29s (one more squadron) are in that vein.
It is silly to look down on China for its successful building of a mighty Industrial Base that is unmatchable at this time. The response of "we could do the same with them" makes one cry. What was stopping us for decades? What stops us from canceling T90 production and ordering 1500 Arjuns? Only our corruption and our stupidity. Why to spend billions on Talwars? Why not set up additional yards to make Shivaliks?
And then this claim of 10:1 ratios in our favor along the "Tibetan Border". Where was this in '62? No one will fight the Chinese for us. So in war time, the Chinese with their superior ground infrastructure, will move in troops and materials to threaten us.
War time attrition will be met by the Chinese in the form of additional production at their factories. For India it will mean begging Russia/Israel?France for billions of dollars worth of spares that may not come in time.
Point is - lusting for imports is fine to meet the Puki threat. Even against the lowly Pukis, as we saw in the recent operations - imported weapons do not translate into overwhelming superiority vis-a-vis Pukis. That is because Pukis get baksheesh from US and China while we pay in hard currency and exorbitant sums.
So IMHO Larry, in a fight with the Chinese, India will do very badly, probably worse than 1962. The only way is to build a credible domestic industrial base that supports the military.

[Mort Walker]

Agree with Vivek K.

Any semi-organized assault by land, sea or air will be disastrous for India. The Chinese got this way by mass producing weapon systems domestically and building up their industries. In India we see industries only as profiteers to be heavily taxed and over regulated.

The 2017 Doklam stand off would have had the Chinese pull back instantly if there were several squadrons of LCHs moving about the area backed by a few squadrons of LCA Tejas.

[chola]

Point is - lusting for imports is fine to meet the Puki threat. Even against the lowly Pukis, as we saw in the recent operations - imported weapons do not translate into overwhelming superiority vis-a-vis Pukis. That is because Pukis get baksheesh from US and China while we pay in hard currency and exorbitant sums.
So IMHO Larry, in a fight with the Chinese, India will do very badly, probably worse than 1962. The only way is to build a credible domestic industrial base that supports the military.

That is why I always said like having Cheen as a rival. Thank goodness we've decoupled ourselves from the Pukes. Racing with them will leave on the same f-ing rung of the ladder. Racing with the chinis will drive us up. If we take up their challenge with our own MIC.

The key is looking at things holistically. There is a camp that might think importing a few more expensive high quality firangi weapons will balance out chini industrial quantity. But imported quality weapons have a shelf life before they age and go obsolete. Unless we are going to war with Cheen now, those quality weapons can be a deadweight to our development.

The truth is if we go to war at this very moment we own all the advantages in every realistic theater and scenario of war. Therefore, we had time to develop a MIC to match Cheen's.

Yes, if it is total war where both sides are pouring everything against one opponent then maybe they can overwhelm us with that output but total war between two nuclear states? It'll never get to that point.

The bigget question is if we can hold onto sea, air and space during PEACE TIME. That's where quantity counts most. Where humans must use machines then those would fewer machines will be left behind. And no war so you can't even attrition numbers.

Just as they are overrunning the SCS without going to war, they can swarm machines over the IOR, the Arctic, the Stratosphere (we are nearing the age of continuous and autonomous drone flights) or the Moon.