MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 23 Apr 2020 13:56

I am wondering, why Abhinandan Mig-21s RWR did not deploy Chaff when Amraam was fired at him?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Apr 2020 18:58

Depends on where the missile is, where the chaff was and where the aircraft is.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 23 Apr 2020 20:57

Gyan. i dont know how u r assuming things. What Abdi did or did not do is known to him and probably few others. Theres no way we can second guess...!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Apr 2020 21:25

Chandrashekharan Hari Kumar Speaks On 2019 Balakot Airstrike

https://youtu.be/hMxSsE3jC-s?t=217

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Apr 2020 21:36

Ex Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa On Mission & Message Of Balakot Airstrike | CNN News18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUnF5po48g4&t=1324s

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Apr 2020 21:38

"If they had a mission called swift retort, we had a swifter retort. And our retort was in tons, because it is carried by the Su-30, we would have wiped out their forward brigades".

"look at the weight of attack we can throw at them vs what they can throw at us"

"other than F-16, the rest of their AF is 3.5 Generation, they dont matter, we have far superior aircraft, we got double " - this will really bruise the PAF fanbois

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 24 Apr 2020 00:39

Karan M wrote:Chandrashekharan Hari Kumar Speaks On 2019 Balakot Airstrike

https://youtu.be/hMxSsE3jC-s?t=217

This is the first time I have heard one acknowledge that 120C5 was better that the missiles we were carrying. One of the many reasons why no launches from IAF. Also interesting is the fact that PAF turned tail before the ORPs from the other locations hit. Shows how quick the ORPs from Srinagar scrambled. Very impressive.

ACM Dhanoa's message has a finality to it.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Apr 2020 00:48

Chaff, RWR, Aircraft, missile all have to be at same place. Chaff should have been deployed automatically when RWR noticed RF seeker of AMRAAM going active

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Apr 2020 01:36

Gyan wrote:Chaff, RWR, Aircraft, missile all have to be at same place. Chaff should have been deployed automatically when RWR noticed RF seeker of AMRAAM going active

I don't know whether chaff deployment is automatic or manual in the Bison, but in either case, even if the chaff was deployed that doesn't mean the AMRAAM will get fooled into going for the chaff every time. Modern BVRAAM seekers can ignore chaff and keep tracking the original target. Just like modern IIR seekers on CCM's can ignore flares.

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Apr 2020 03:22

Gyan wrote:Chaff, RWR, Aircraft, missile all have to be at same place. Chaff should have been deployed automatically when RWR noticed RF seeker of AMRAAM going active

Deployment of ECM/ECCM/EW/Decoys (Chaff/flares etc) doesn’t necessarily mean the missiles get fooled 100% of the time. Many variables at play.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2020 04:09

Gyan wrote:Chaff, RWR, Aircraft, missile all have to be at same place. Chaff should have been deployed automatically when RWR noticed RF seeker of AMRAAM going active

Do you think the chaff will continue to move with the aircraft as it moves? Think. In between each deployment of chaff, there is a window the aircraft is maneuvering without cover, if it moves out of chaff coverage. That is the risk.

You aim to use chaff to mask your maneuver as the seeker continues to have a target while you are someplace else. However, as you are moving someplace else, the missile hasnt gone terminal but is still guided by the FCR or the chaff remained in place, while your relative velocity took you back into the seeker's lock-on, what then?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Apr 2020 11:48

Karan M wrote:Chandrashekharan Hari Kumar Speaks On 2019 Balakot Airstrike

https://youtu.be/hMxSsE3jC-s?t=217

Thanks, Air Marshal is clear Amraam is superior, but I hope IAF is not putting its hope on Rafale/ Metoer combo- we need to use the Su 30 long range radar with a longer range AAM's, Hope we acquire some Rvv-BD + RVV SD's and the SU-30 LCA fleet gets the Astra Mk1 and Mk2 fast.

That begs the questions, we have known since 2005 that Pakis will be getting Aim 120C-5 and yet all levels of the Govt slept on it. The Govt of the day did not even protest that alteration of Balance in power.

2 things, 1we Indians seems to value treaties too much, pakis treat it like Toilet paper. and 2nd we dont we seem to understand the importance of Air dominance which the Israelis/ Americans and the Rest of the world understand. More than a fence, inability of PAF to defend them will deter Pakistani Army and its subordinate Non State actors.

We need to get back at the Pakis and hit a few of their assets, a blow to PAF H&D morally downs the entire Paki Nation especially the Jihadis in Pakistan and some of their supporters in Kashmir.

Its the myth of undef eatable Pakistan on which BIF forces thrive.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2020 12:34

SidSoma wrote:
Karan M wrote:Chandrashekharan Hari Kumar Speaks On 2019 Balakot Airstrike

https://youtu.be/hMxSsE3jC-s?t=217

This is the first time I have heard one acknowledge that 120C5 was better that the missiles we were carrying. One of the many reasons why no launches from IAF. Also interesting is the fact that PAF turned tail before the ORPs from the other locations hit. Shows how quick the ORPs from Srinagar scrambled. Very impressive.

ACM Dhanoa's message has a finality to it.

Well, this interview too. Check from 11:00. Astra has parity.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2020 12:37

10:40 onwards

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Apr 2020 13:07

Thank you Karan- really nice to hear about Astra at least giving Su-30 parity(given the Su-30 superior performance and radar they could out range when the Su-30 is at max power) and there is rapid progress in that area from the Air Cheif, I hope that means sizable inductions.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Apr 2020 13:45

1. The videos of Engagement between Mig 21& F-16s do not show Chaff being deployed by either of 2-4 aircraft involved in the melee by both sides.

2. If our missiles are crap compared to year 2000, AMRAAM C5 of Pakistan, then what was IAF doing for 10 years? Or it's just a pretext to explain our failure & do subtle lobbying for More Rafale + Meteors

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Apr 2020 13:47

Karan M wrote:
Gyan wrote:Chaff, RWR, Aircraft, missile all have to be at same place. Chaff should have been deployed automatically when RWR noticed RF seeker of AMRAAM going active
Do you think the chaff will continue to move with the aircraft as it moves? Think. In between each deployment of chaff, there is a window the aircraft is maneuvering without cover, if it moves out of chaff coverage. That is the risk.

You aim to use chaff to mask your maneuver as the seeker continues to have a target while you are someplace else. However, as you are moving someplace else, the missile hasnt gone terminal but is still guided by the FCR or the chaff remained in place, while your relative velocity took you back into the seeker's lock-on, what then?

An aircraft has hundreds of shots of chaff

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Apr 2020 15:29

Karan M wrote:

10:40 onwards

watching between 24:45 to 25:00 he talks about replenishing Air to AIr Missiles and signing contracts which were in the pipeline post Balakot, wonder if there are RVV-BD and RVV-SD's on the way. he was not talking about Metoer.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 24 Apr 2020 16:37

Gyan wrote: 2. If our missiles are crap compared to year 2000, AMRAAM C5 of Pakistan, then what was IAF doing for 10 years? Or it's just a pretext to explain our failure & do subtle lobbying for More Rafale + Meteors

What options are out there (other than the Meteor, i.e.). Something that we can prefereablly integrate with BARS and/or 2032/2052? What did IAF fail to do (other than go to Govt/Press and say, "Next Pak attack they are going to kick BVR battles in our face").

Even today do we have something in the arsenal (not in the near/distant future, please dont say meteor) that can out gun AIM120C?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Apr 2020 16:55

I dont agree with Gyan but I feel we might have inducted Astra Mk1's, RVV- SD (export version of the R-77-1 inducted by the Russians in 2015) based on ACM Dhanoa statement after the Feb 2019- I think this was in the pipeline but postponed by our Babus. These combined with SU-30 ability having more fuel and power should change the dynamics in our favour. The RVV-AE was certainly outgunned by the Amraam C-5.

Secretly I hope we have acquired a few RVV- BD's to for a nasty suprise to the Paki SAAB Erieye's

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Apr 2020 17:08

What options are out there (other than the Meteor, i.e.). Something that we can prefereablly integrate with BARS and/or 2032/2052? What did IAF fail to do (other than go to Govt/Press and say, "Next Pak attack they are going to kick BVR battles in our face").

Even today do we have something in the arsenal (not in the near/distant future, please dont say meteor) that can out gun AIM120C?

Indigenous Astra Mk.1 is under production as we speak. 200 units have been ordered for the initial production run.

In a recent and final user trials, Astra shot down a target drone that was maneuvering at a distance of more than 90km. Astra Mk.1 gives parity (probably slightly better performance) than the AMRAAM C5. It’s indigenous and cheap. Currently Integrated with Su-30MKI. Integration with MiG-29 and LCA MK.1/1A likely in the works.

Astra Mk.2 with dual-pulse is under R&D. Then a Meteor competitor in SDFR in the works as well.

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Apr 2020 17:29

...

Something that we can prefereablly integrate with BARS and/or 2032/2052?

...

Radar and weapon can be decoupled through WCS and MC.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1157834605870944257

Taking full advantage of the indigenous platform, the architecture caters to integrating any missile and /or any radar. The Indian mission computer, which is the brain of the LCA, controls the assets completely. There is no need for direct dialogue between radar and missile.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 24 Apr 2020 17:39

Aditya_V wrote:
Secretly I hope we have acquired a few RVV- BD's to for a nasty suprise to the Paki SAAB Erieye's

Rambhas are armed with Novator KS-172 "AWACS killer" as per wiki. So if we didnt send one behind one of those SAABs ... it was by choice. Although I dont think a regular CAP or ORP would be armed with one of these.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 24 Apr 2020 17:41

srai wrote:
...

Something that we can prefereablly integrate with BARS and/or 2032/2052?

...
Radar and weapon can be decoupled through WCS and MC.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1157834605870944257
Taking full advantage of the indigenous platform, the architecture caters to integrating any missile and /or any radar. The Indian mission computer, which is the brain of the LCA, controls the assets completely. There is no need for direct dialogue between radar and missile.

How are mid course guidance/corrections given ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2020 17:44

Gyan wrote:1. The videos of Engagement between Mig 21& F-16s do not show Chaff being deployed by either of 2-4 aircraft involved in the melee by both sides.

Do you seriously think chaff would be visible in low rez videos taken from dozens of km away?

2. If our missiles are crap compared to year 2000, AMRAAM C5 of Pakistan, then what was IAF doing for 10 years? Or it's just a pretext to explain our failure & do subtle lobbying for More Rafale + Meteors

Waiting for Astra and trying its hardest to get missiles from 3rd party vendors.

An aircraft has hundreds of shots of chaff

No, not unless it has extra dedicated pods.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2020 17:48

SidSoma wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
Secretly I hope we have acquired a few RVV- BD's to for a nasty suprise to the Paki SAAB Erieye's
Rambhas are armed with Novator KS-172 "AWACS killer" as per wiki. So if we didnt send one behind one of those SAABs ... it was by choice. Although I dont think a regular CAP or ORP would be armed with one of these.

We dont field that.

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Apr 2020 17:55

...

2. If our missiles are crap compared to year 2000, AMRAAM C5 of Pakistan, then what was IAF doing for 10 years?

...

What import options were there?

Russian AAMs next generation are still not fully ready. Meteor is fairly new and limited to new EU combat aircraft. Forget about American AMRAAMs for Indian Russian fighters.

Integration of AAMs on a new fighter type is a long process. Takes more than five years to IOC/FOC.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Apr 2020 17:59

1. I believe that IAF Brass actually did not contemplate such long range BVR shots, hence Indranil is right to that extent. They were caught with their pants down. ACM Dhanoa has repeatedly admitted that there were mistakes.

2. Our Mirage 2000 upgrade cost was USD 2400+1200 MICA, we should have demanded meteor, if MICA combination was useless.

3. We should have collaborated with Israel for VLR BVR like we entered into JV for MRSAM

4. We could have purchased R-37, R- 77-1 from Russia. Even now most of purchase after 27th Feb, is NOT VLR BVR AAMs.

Anyway, I think that IAF Brass as usual was caught off guard, and only survived by skin of teeth.

Its redux of 1962, 1965, 1999. Lack of pro active thinking. Now, they find it simple to blame Politicians, like always.

If without Meteor IAF was useless then why did they not act proactively.

In fact orders for 200 Astra have not been given, to my knowledge, it's being delayed. IAF also cancelled more NETRA AEWs.

From 2010 IAF priority has been Apache, more Hawk, Pilatus, C17, C130s, Chinooks, imported LUH, more Pilatus, more second hand Mig-29s etc. Even now they want second hand Mig-29s, no shame at all.

We see so many ACM interviews demanding various types of imports, never once any Reference to longe range AAMs as essential requirement in preference to any other import.

Barak-8 = MRSAM = LRSAM could easily have been repurposed as 150 KM range AAM as it's only 275kg missile.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2020 18:05

"2. Our Mirage 2000 upgrade cost was USD 2400+1200 MICA, we should have demanded meteor, if MICA combination was useless."

Who said Mica is useless? Also MBDA refused integration of Meteor with Mirage 2000.

"3. We should have collaborated with Israel for VLR BVR like we entered into JV for MRSAM"

And open up Bars and the Su-30 WCS to them?

"4. We could have purchased R-37, R- 77-1 from Russia. Even now most of purchase after 27th Feb, is NOT VLR BVR AAMs. "

So easy, right? FYI, RVV-BD, the R-37 derivative started integration trials with Su-35 a few days back.

"In fact orders for 200 Astra have not been given, to my knowledge, it's being delayed. IAF also cancelled more NETRA AEWs."

Link please.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Apr 2020 18:06

Chaff is way more visible than fighter aircraft itself. If it was deployed, it would have been seen

https://www.pinterest.cl/pin/300826450081124666/

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Apr 2020 18:07

...

2. Our Mirage 2000 upgrade cost was USD 2400+1200 MICA, we should have demanded meteor, if MICA combination was useless.

...

Mirage-2000 and Meteor not viable.

IAF’s Mirage 2000 jets unlikely to get Meteor missiles, makers cite high integration cost

...

The Indian Air Force’s (IAF) plans to arm the Mirage 2000 fleet with potent long-range Meteor missiles has hit rough weather due to high integration cost and lower capability of the fighter jet. The Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile Meteor — part of the Rafale weapons package — has a range of about 150 km and a no-escape zone of 100 km.

Officials at MBDA, the missile’s maker, said they had discussed the matter with the IAF and were informed that the deal was “not viable”.

“We are in discussion with the IAF and it could still be an option. Our initial view is that perhaps the most optimal solution will be to bring the next generation MICA on the Mirage platform,” said MBDA’s Ryan Hurril, while briefing a select group of Indian journalists at its facility in the United Kingdom.

IAF sources also confirmed that they were informed by the MBDA about the higher cost of integrating the Meteor on the Mirage 2000.

“Moreover, the Meteor works with a state-of-the-art radar that comes with platforms like Rafale. Meteor won’t be as effective on a Mirage which comes with a different radar,” said an IAF source.

...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2020 18:07

Gyan wrote:Chaff is way more visible than fighter aircraft itself. If it was deployed, it would have been seen

https://www.pinterest.cl/pin/300826450081124666/

That picture, is of flares. Not chaff.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Apr 2020 18:12

Gyan wrote:Anyway, I think that IAF Brass as usual was caught off guard, and only survived by skin of teeth.

Its redux of 1962, 1965, 1999. Lack of pro active thinking. Now, they find it simple to blame Politicians, like always.

If without Meteor IAF was useless then why did they not act proactively.

I am happy you think like this, because NaPakis will be thinking even worse.

Gyan wrote:From 2010 IAF priority has been Apache, more Hawk, Pilatus, C17, C130s, Chinooks, imported LUH, more Pilatus, more second hand Mig-29s etc. Even now they want second hand Mig-29s, no shame at all.

The 21 MiG-29s you are referring to is a welcome addition. I am surprised how you can claim that is shameful.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2020 18:17

We'll have to wait till 2021 i guess for new purchases.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 24 Apr 2020 18:36

Gyan wrote:1. I believe that IAF Brass actually did not contemplate such long range BVR shots, hence Indranil is right to that extent. They were caught with their pants down. ACM Dhanoa has repeatedly admitted that there were mistakes.

Well, caught with pants down makes no sense. No aircraft lost to long range BVR and we won all but the perception battle that day.

Gyan wrote: 2. Our Mirage 2000 upgrade cost was USD 2400+1200 MICA, we should have demanded meteor, if MICA combination was useless.

And MBDA has informed that the Meteor was unviable with the current radar in 2000s. MICA was far from useless. They did not attack in the Mirage controlled sector and it is well known that they are very wary of the Mirage's capabilities. They quietly "turned back"

Gyan wrote: 3. We should have collaborated with Israel for VLR BVR like we entered into JV for MRSAM

Called iDerby-ER still in the works.

Gyan wrote: 4. We could have purchased R-37, R- 77-1 from Russia. Even now most of purchase after 27th Feb, is NOT VLR BVR AAMs.

R-37 is for AWACS and such. R-77-1 is still not procured or we dont know means either we already have it and it still not up to the mark or we dont have it because it is not upto the mark.

Gyan wrote: Anyway, I think that IAF Brass as usual was caught off guard, and only survived by skin of teeth.

Its redux of 1962, 1965, 1999. Lack of pro active thinking. Now, they find it simple to blame Politicians, like always.

If without Meteor IAF was useless then why did they not act proactively.

In fact orders for 200 Astra have not been given, to my knowledge, it's being delayed. IAF also cancelled more NETRA AEWs.

I dont think so. They did everything in their hands but nothing came thru.... They work with DRDO for ASTRA which had its last test in Sept 2019 so they could not have fielded it in Feb 2019. The really tried to push MMRCA deal and get their hands on the Rafale. Pushed the Israels to develop iDerby ER. Now the results are begining to show. In the mean time we trained against the RSAF on how to deal with F-16 and developed tactics to evade the AIM120s and close in for the kill (realising which the PAF turned tail and ran). Yep the NETRA is a shame. There may may just be a reason for that.

Gyan wrote: From 2010 IAF priority has been Apache, more Hawk, Pilatus, C17, C130s, Chinooks, imported LUH, more Pilatus, more second hand Mig-29s etc. Even now they want second hand Mig-29s, no shame at all.

Some of these are actually required. But yes LCHs and HPTs and HJTs and MKII and AMCAs are still being supported and developed.May be not HPTs by IAF but they are for the most part doing their bit. I think the IAFs participation in LCA of late has been kick a$$.

Gyan wrote: We see so many ACM interviews demanding various types of imports, never once any Reference to longe range AAMs as essential requirement in preference to any other import.

I think we will never see an open demand to show case specific capabilities which are lacking. Lots of noise has been made to escalate the lack of funds and general capability erosion, not only for imports, also for home grown products.

Gyan wrote: Barak-8 = MRSAM = LRSAM could easily have been repurposed as 150 KM range AAM as it's only 275kg missile.

LRSAM still being developed. But they are working to get the iDerby ER why try another approach with Israel...

In conclusion. I dont think the IAF has too many options that they did not try out. Indigenous or imported they have been investing and chasing all of it and may have a few options in the near future. The first being the Astra which they have recently ordered and follow by the meteor in a month or 2 followed by the iDerby ER followed by Next gen russian.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Apr 2020 18:49

R-77-1 (RVV-SD) will require modifications to the Su-30's mission computer to integrate it. There has been no news that this has been done. So all our R-77's, including the recent orders last year are the older RVV-AE version only. My guess is that the IAF does not consider it a big enough upgrade to warrant the (probable) extra cost of the missile and integration.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2020 18:53

Besides Astra and R77-1 may be very similar in performance.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Apr 2020 19:29

Chaff & flares would be deployed together. I dont think there are separate cartridges

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Apr 2020 19:35

They are separate.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2020 19:40

https://www.tara-aerospace.com/infrared-flares
https://www.tara-aerospace.com/radar-chaffs
http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_ ... pp-50.html