Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

[nam]

Very long ranged BVR also provides the ability to cover larger area in a CAP. If those PAF F16 flying 150KM away had a 200KM BVR on them, they would have fired some when our M2K ingressed.

[rahulm]

@Indranil - Unable to PM you. Please PM me if you can or share email (not generic admin). brilliance shines..Thx Regards

[Aditya_V]

Very long ranged BVR also provides the ability to cover larger area in a CAP. If those PAF F16 flying 150KM away had a 200KM BVR on them, they would have fired some when our M2K ingressed.

OT but I think the PAF F-16's were worried by the SU-30 MKI which were flying high and giving top cover to the Package, so they would have tried to engage these first.

[Indranil]

@Indranil - Unable to PM you. Please PM me if you can or share email (not generic admin). brilliance shines..Thx Regards

indranilr at gmard dot kaum

[Manish_P]

^ Indranil sir, another option could be to have them as guest visitors, not as registered posters per se. With Mods/knowledgeable members curating the questions & directing the flow of the discussion (to maintain decorum, as well as ensure the required level is maintained)

After that, if the eminent personality chooses to join on his/her own volition, then great. Else no harm done..

[Cain Marko]

.

Only thing I'd point out though, is that it would be good to have more flexibility via dual racks - i.e. you can asymmetrically carry the above 4+ BVR loadout while also carrying a SPJ.

IMHO, that will be a gamechanger.

Can't the mk1 carry an spj on the ldp station while still carrying 6 AAMs and CFT? If course dualk racks are always useful..

[dkhare]

Yes, but how will the RWR distinguish between a regular scan and a TWS lock? The pilot will not know a missile has been launched at him. I alluded to this when I cooked up the scenario. You are 80km away from the enemy who is painting you with his radar which your RWR informs you. Knowing that he can launch on you in TWS mode, you can never be sure if he has launched or not since the RWR indication may not change. At that point do you decide to launch yourself, assuming that he has or wait till you get closer and then launch to improve pk? I guess one way to be sure is if you see him cranking.

Exactly, you have to assume that moment he entered the theoretical WEZ - he has launched on you. That's what has made this BVR game so vicious. Moment the chap has you on TWS or even RWS, chances are you can be fired on. And if the Turks using their AWACS as FCR replacements (the F-16 only provides guidance), things are even worse.

I recall seeing graphical representation using cones, circles and hemispherical bubbles displayed since the early days of the ATF program that highlighted when you were within the opposing fighter's WEZ/launch window (Rmax) or SAM bubble. That was a long time ago. Now with all the advances in radar NCTR, smart displays, AI, sensor fusion, etc. the avionics should be able to build a pretty good visual situational awareness picture for pilots to know when they are within launch window of an enemy fighter who will be armed with BVRs. This would help in the TWS / LPI world of missile launch and guidance.

[SidSoma]

.

Only thing I'd point out though, is that it would be good to have more flexibility via dual racks - i.e. you can asymmetrically carry the above 4+ BVR loadout while also carrying a SPJ.

IMHO, that will be a gamechanger.

Can't the mk1 carry an spj on the ldp station while still carrying 6 AAMs and CFT? If course dualk racks are always useful..

There were reports that the Ideal position of SPJ was one of the outboard pylons

[Indranil]

^^^ correct.

[nachiket]

Is that because that gives the best coverage with lowest interference from aircraft body or because the SPJ is too big/heavy for the LDP station?

[rahulm]

@Indranil - Unable to PM you. Please PM me if you can or share email (not generic admin). brilliance shines..Thx Regards

indranilr at gmard dot kaum

Thx, pls check email.

[Kartik]

TWS will also provide a regular scan. Basically, if your radar operates, the RW is meant to pick it up.
Only that a STT will provide a regular tone - designed to alert the pilot.

Yes, but how will the RWR distinguish between a regular scan and a TWS lock? The pilot will not know a missile has been launched at him. I alluded to this when I cooked up the scenario. You are 80km away from the enemy who is painting you with his radar which your RWR informs you. Knowing that he can launch on you in TWS mode, you can never be sure if he has launched or not since the RWR indication may not change. At that point do you decide to launch yourself, assuming that he has or wait till you get closer and then launch to improve pk? I guess one way to be sure is if you see him cranking.

Which is probably where MAWS becomes an extremely important sensor. If it can detect a plume that far out, or even a plume as it approaches before the missile uses up all it's fuel and begins to coast.

[Kartik]

Karan,

I know what you are talking about. That is what I meant by pilots use BVRAAMs to get to an advantageous position while entering the WVRs. With today's BVRs, you can expect to fire at >60 km and cause trouble. However, I hadn't thought of the psychological aspect of fire at 100 kms and may be your opponent makes an error.

There are multiple reasons why low Pk BVRs can be fired:
1. To put the opponent at a starting disadvantage
2. Unnerve the opponent during the fight
3. Break up a formation to cause loss of situational awareness and launch a second BVR
4. Force a maneuver kill (a low flying opponent is forced to multi-task between evading a missile and piloting)
5. Break the opponents missile lock (if the opponent is yet to achieve terminal guidance and is unwilling to risk your missile, he has to break lock and his missile goes awry)
6. ...

Point being the more you carry, more you can afford to "waste" them . Of course, there are trade-offs as you have pointed out. The pylons, the missiles all come with drag, and every pylon on a missile is a pylon without fuel. Which is why as a bridge between Mk1A and MWF i seriously wanted the HAL guys to take a look at EFTs too, in case they needed a longer ranged bird w/fewer modifications to make up for the retiring Jags, and couldn;t give up pylons either.

Anyways, I went back to have some more chai. For Mk1 and Mk1A they are seriously considering 4 BVRAAMs + 2CCMs + centerline tank. But that is nothing new. That config has been on static display. No talks of dual racks. At least that flavor of chai was unavailable to me.

Gripen C also carries 4 BVR + 2 CCM + centerline tank. It is basically the "sweet spot" as far as light fighters are concerned for a max A2A payload. Even the MiG-29 IIRC manages with a similar load-out. Per se, the above load-out is sufficient.

Only thing I'd point out though, is that it would be good to have more flexibility via dual racks - i.e. you can asymmetrically carry the above 4+ BVR loadout while also carrying a SPJ.

IMHO, that will be a gamechanger.

+1

Agree with all your points. 4 BVRAAMs + 2 CCMs is adequate for the Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A, but is single 725 ltr centerline drop tank sufficient? I hope so, for the bulk of the missions. Would also amount to lower drag and lower restrictions on the envelope via the FCS due to lower weight.

Nevertheless, my point all along has been that it is the flexibility that dual racks offer that counts.

BTW, the J-10 carries a dual rack for the SD-10. We are likely to see that appearing on the JF-17 Blk3 in the not so distant future.

[Kartik]

And this discussion also clearly proves one thing- that the Rafale with the Meteor will be a true game changer in the region. No PAF F-16 or JF-17 will even want to remain 100-120 km from a Rafale, knowing that it can paint it from that distance with it's radar and fire a Meteor that will be powered all the way to the end.

Meteors would've really transformed the Mirage-2000I into the second most feared fighter in the IAF after the Rafale if MBDA had agreed to their integration. MICA-NG follows the same path as the i-Derby-ER. Dual pulse, smaller seeker and miniaturized electronics to fit in more propellant. Will definitely be potent, but maybe not worth investing in.

Hoping to see the Astra Mk2 and SFDR complete their product development cycles quicker than usual for the rest of the fleet that won't be integrated with the Meteor.

[Kartik]

Also keep in mind, in the not so distant future, we may see the PL-15 proliferating in the neighborhood. Purported to have a range of 120 miles (~190 km) and mostly aimed at taking out prized assets such as AWACS and tankers. If the escorts defending those assets cannot take on a fighter that fires a PL-15 at say 150 km, then the AWACS and tankers will also be in trouble.

[srai]

...

MICA-NG follows the same path as the i-Derby-ER. Dual pulse, smaller seeker and miniaturized electronics to fit in more propellant. Will definitely be potent, but maybe not worth investing in.

...

MICA-NG is still some 7 years to induction. As per MBDA press release, it will have 30% boost in range. That would mean 60+km to 80+km.

IAF Rafales will get it at some point. Probably in the early 2030s.

For Mirage-2000I, I guess it depends on how long the IAF plans to keep it in operation and the integration costs. Given how long any defense contact signing takes in India, probably unlikely for the Mirages.

[Karan M]

Astra Mk1 and Mk2 on Mirage 2000 will be more than sufficient.

[sankum]

For mirage 2000 fleet 450 mica were purchased @9 missile/ fighter.
Qatar purchased 160 Meteor missile@4.5 missile/ fighter for 36 Rafale.
IAF also can be expected to purchase 160 Meteor plus 160 Mica missile for its fleet of 36 Rafale.

Standardization on Astra SFDR and Asraam will result in large stockpile of 4000 to 6000 missiles of each type across fighter fleet.

[nachiket]

Astra Mk1 and Mk2 on Mirage 2000 will be more than sufficient.

That is not a given IMO. Integrating Astra with the M2k's new Radar and MC will require collaboration with the French. Same issue on the Mig-29. Won't be as easy as doing it on the MKI or Tejas.

Integrating Astra with the Rafale might be needed as well, if the French cooperate (which they probably won't). The Meteor is an expensive missile and I don't see our Rafales carrying 4 or 6 Meteors in service. Probably just 2, that too in rare circumstances with the rest being MICA's. We would be better off carrying Astras instead of those MICAs.

I mean imagine the IAF firing 5 Meteors in one engagement like the pakis fired AMRAAMs. There will probably be a CAG audit where a bean counter will criticize the IAF pilots for wasting expensive missiles.

[Indranil]

Astra Mk1 and Mk2 on Mirage 2000 will be more than sufficient.

Unlikely to not happening.

[Indranil]

Is that because that gives the best coverage with lowest interference from aircraft body or because the SPJ is too big/heavy for the LDP station?

Yes. I had asked them why they did not put it at the base of the fin, just above the parachute housing. They said they had started with a variety of locations. The base of the fin was an attractive location aerodynamically. Next to no increase in drag, no usage of pylon and makes the fin taller. The LDP location was also considered. But, overall the wingtip pylon is the most optimized location for the pods working. Nilesh and I had included the aerodynamic studies of various configs tried at the wingtip location too. They tried 1 LDP, 1 CCM; 1 LDP+1 CCM, 2 CCM; and 1 LDP + 2 CCM. They found the last one has best aerodynamic performance. Hence that is what you will see in Mark1 and Mark 1A

[sankum]

$2 billion was paid for Indian specific enhancement for Rafale. Should include Astra integration otherwise on first air dominance combat mission on opening day of war the Rafale will empty it's stockpile of 4 Meteor missile and will be left without any spare missile.

[Indranil]

Those are gold plated birds. They won't let us touch those critical parts and will charge an LCAs price to integrate a missile. At least the Russians have allowed us considerable flexibility in integrating our own ammunitions and missiles

[Roop]

Astra Mk1 and Mk2 on Mirage 2000 will be more than sufficient.

What are the best-guess dates for Astra Mk2 to undergo: (a) initial flight trials and (b) final clearance, i.e. entry into service ? Is middle of 2025 (over 5 yrs from now) too optimistic for (b) ?

Thanks.

[Karan M]

India went to significant lengths to ensure that the 2nd MC on the Mirage 2000-I upgrade is from HAL. And that the IAF Chief explicitly said he wants the Astra to be carried by as much of the IAF fleet as possible. So, if we add 2+2.

https://hal-india.co.in/Mirage%202000%2 ... le/ND__172

The initial operation configuration was designed by the Dassault and Thales of France. HAL took up the FOC design and development activities. The FOC configuration covers the integration of Indian specific weapons, sensors and EW system. This FOC upgrade on Mirage 2000 gives additional capability of air to ground weapon, training, helmet mounted display etc. The system having a unique feature of integrating different types of data bus for IOC and FOC configuration is achieved without any degradation. The total design and development was done by HAL which includes mission computer hardware, OFP software, system design, aircraft modification etc. The Company is responsible for the IOC and FOC upgrade of the Mirage fleet of IAF.

And
An Operational Flight Program (OFP) is the embedded software that performs the functions and sub-functions necessary for aircraft weapon systems to operate.

Regarding the MiG-29, we are adding our own EW system to it, far more complex than adding a mere missile. Adding a missile would be possible if we have the access to the Mission computer and APIs if the system has been designed to be be weapon flexible, and add 3rd party kit.

Not just the Astra btw.
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 013143746/

IAF wants new Russian MiG-29s to be equipped with indigenous weapons

https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 013143746/

Astra Mk1 and Mk2 on Mirage 2000 will be more than sufficient.

That is not a given IMO. Integrating Astra with the M2k's new Radar and MC will require collaboration with the French. Same issue on the Mig-29. Won't be as easy as doing it on the MKI or Tejas.

Integrating Astra with the Rafale might be needed as well, if the French cooperate (which they probably won't). The Meteor is an expensive missile and I don't see our Rafales carrying 4 or 6 Meteors in service. Probably just 2, that too in rare circumstances with the rest being MICA's. We would be better off carrying Astras instead of those MICAs.

I mean imagine the IAF firing 5 Meteors in one engagement like the pakis fired AMRAAMs. There will probably be a CAG audit where a bean counter will criticize the IAF pilots for wasting expensive missiles.

Unlikely to not happening.

[Karan M]

Bingo. I'd expect the Rafale ISE's include the API access to add our own/3rd party weapons like the Astra, NGARM etc. Dassault PR:

$2 billion was paid for Indian specific enhancement for Rafale. Should include Astra integration otherwise on first air dominance combat mission on opening day of war the Rafale will empty it's stockpile of 4 Meteor missile and will be left without any spare missile.

[Karan M]

Astra Mk1 and Mk2 on Mirage 2000 will be more than sufficient.

What are the best-guess dates for Astra Mk2 to undergo: (a) initial flight trials and (b) final clearance, i.e. entry into service ? Is middle of 2025 (over 5 yrs from now) too optimistic for (b) ?

Thanks.

It was meant to start initial trials this year, before the CV-19 fracas. If it had, I would have expected a development program of 2-3 years.

[Karan M]

Note the 114 MMRCA aircraft procurement specifically asks for:

Integration of Weapons, Systems and Sensors. Aircraft would be integrated with weapons/ sensors/ systems of Indian origin/ any other origin, at any time of its service life. The vendor is to provide the user the capability to unilaterally upgrade/ integrate such systems, weaponsor sensors. The vendor would be required to integrate certain Buyer Furnished Equipment / Buyer Nominated Equipment (BFE / BNE) and it is essential that test pilots and engineers of the IAF or their assignees be involved in flight testing of such equipment during integration and certification phase.

[Karan M]

The Rafale ISE's are not in public domain, but:

https://www.eparlib.nic.in/bitstream/12 ... /19617.pdf

Government of India would like to acquire (36) Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly aspossible. The two leaders agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be betterthan conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway, the delivery would be in time-frame that would becompatible with the operational requirement of IAF; and that the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered onthe same configuration as had been tested and approved by Indian Air Force, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France.

The Indian configuration asked for India specific integration as is evident on the MMRCA bit above. Very unlikely India dropped it. We likely have the ability to tweak our 36 Rafales software, symbology and integration wise, with Dassault assisting in integration (for the right dinero).

[mody]

Ability to integrate Indian weapons on the Rafael was one of the sticking points of the deal. Finally the French relented on the issue.

[Karan M]

Mody, do you have a link for the same, or is it chai-source? TIA.

[krishna_krishna]

Mody, do you have a link for the same, or is it chai-source? TIA.

Now Dassault is touting this as a capability to integrate customers stores, this was result of the indian deal :

"The Rafale’s stores management system is Mil-Std-1760 compliant, which provides for easy integration of customer-selected weapons."

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/de ... d-weapons/

[JayS]

India pays R&D for many OEMs, except Indian.

[Indranil]

Let's not go in the whatabouteries.

Who did the India specific modifications?
Who got paid?
And how much?

[Indranil]

Astra has been integrated on Su-30. It will get integrated on LCA family and Mig-29s. I have not heard of the slightest of whispers of integration into Mirage 2000s, let alone Rafales.

[Indranil]

I don't know if we have discussed this here. This was a ferry flight from Bangalore to Jaisalmer.

They landed with 800 kg of fuel left. Flying at around FL 280-290 (28000-29000 feet). Higher cruising altitude will lead to higher endurance and range. Current flight ceilings during ferry flights are regulated by DGCA. So, brochure ferry range and endurance without refueling should be around 2800 kms and over 3.5 hours.

Unfortunately, the DTs are not optimized. Addition of the 3rd tank increases range by a little over 100 knots. The 1200 ltr DTs will be changed to 1360 ltr DTs which dont have much higher drag and have better weapon separation characteristics. The centerline tank is going to get bigger with an oval cross section.

[Indranil]

I love this picture too. With Umaid Bhavan in the background and the USAF chief in the rear cockpit.

[Indranil]

This one bbn is clicked by Mao sir. First flight of NP2 with tail hook integrated.

[Indranil]

Tejas in front of Umaid Bhavan and Tejas in front of Mehrangarh for have to be some of the best pictures of Tejas.

[Vivek K]

NLCA is a real looker!