Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Apr 2020 19:36

a forward

Tit for Tat - An IAF story

Refusing a lift seems to have been a standard but misplaced method of showing authority and there have been numerous such cases.

Many years ago, then F/O Chatterji had been declared unfit to fly fighters due to poor eyesight (therein lies a separate story) and landed up in a transport squadron somewhere in the East. He was proceeding on leave to get married in his own squadron aircraft to Pune, when he was shocked to be told by the Captain that he cannot take him. After much pleading that he was going to get married and was taking this heavy crate of rum and going by train would take three days, the second pilot agreed to take him stating that he was actually the Captain on the first leg and it was hence his prerogative.

They went up to Bombay uneventfully. At Bombay, as they were about to taxi out for Pune, the other pilot came and told Chatterji that since he was now the Captain, Chatterji had to get out. Chatterji, though seething with anger, had no choice but to get down. He was however able to request the first captain to at least take the crate of rum and leave it with Pune ATC, which he did.

Many, many years later Chatterji was flying HS748’s as a Captain for AEB (or Comm Flt) and had landed at Bombay. He got a call from his boss, later Air Mshl Man Singh, to allow an air force officer who would be contacting him, to travel in the aircraft. This somewhat familiar looking air force officer who contacted Chatterji turned out to be now flying for Air India and was going for his medical to CME Delhi. Since anything went those days and since his boss had instructed him, Chatterji let him board the aircraft.

As they taxied out, Chatterji suddenly realised that the officer was none other than the guy who had off-loaded him at Bombay all those years ago. By this time, they were at line up point. Chatterji unstrapped from his seat, went back and asked this guy if he remembered him. The guy first denied but when reminded, tried to reason with Chatterji that they were all very young and immature those days etc. etc. Chatterji would have none of it and opened the door and asked him to get off. When he didn’t, he picked up his suitcase and tossed it out on the tarmac forcing him to jump out behind it. The suitcase cracked open and all the imported underclothes and lotions he was carrying spilled out on the taxiway. To add insult to injury, Chatterji then gunned the engines and scattered them even more as he lined up and took off, leaving this guy stranded miles from nowhere with stuff strewn all over the taxiway.

When Chatterji landed at Delhi, as expected, there was a jeep waiting to take him to his boss. As he walked into Man Singh’s office, he could see that Man Singh was livid with anger and fit to be tied. But before he could speak, Chatterji told Man Singh that he could do anything he wanted to him but to first listen to his story. Chatterji then went on to narrate how it all came about and told Man Singh that the threat of any punishment would not have made him forego the delicious moment of getting even for which he had waited all his life.

“Is that what happened?” said Man Singh to Chatterji “You should have waited till you got airborne to throw him out”

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 Apr 2020 01:44

chetak wrote:a forward

Tit for Tat - An IAF story

Refusing a lift seems to have been a standard but misplaced method of showing authority and there have been numerous such cases.

Many years ago, then F/O Chatterji had been declared unfit to fly fighters due to poor eyesight (therein lies a separate story) and landed up in a transport squadron somewhere in the East. He was proceeding on leave to get married in his own squadron aircraft to Pune, when he was shocked to be told by the Captain that he cannot take him. After much pleading that he was going to get married and was taking this heavy crate of rum and going by train would take three days, the second pilot agreed to take him stating that he was actually the Captain on the first leg and it was hence his prerogative.

They went up to Bombay uneventfully. At Bombay, as they were about to taxi out for Pune, the other pilot came and told Chatterji that since he was now the Captain, Chatterji had to get out. Chatterji, though seething with anger, had no choice but to get down. He was however able to request the first captain to at least take the crate of rum and leave it with Pune ATC, which he did.

Many, many years later Chatterji was flying HS748’s as a Captain for AEB (or Comm Flt) and had landed at Bombay. He got a call from his boss, later Air Mshl Man Singh, to allow an air force officer who would be contacting him, to travel in the aircraft. This somewhat familiar looking air force officer who contacted Chatterji turned out to be now flying for Air India and was going for his medical to CME Delhi. Since anything went those days and since his boss had instructed him, Chatterji let him board the aircraft.

As they taxied out, Chatterji suddenly realised that the officer was none other than the guy who had off-loaded him at Bombay all those years ago. By this time, they were at line up point. Chatterji unstrapped from his seat, went back and asked this guy if he remembered him. The guy first denied but when reminded, tried to reason with Chatterji that they were all very young and immature those days etc. etc. Chatterji would have none of it and opened the door and asked him to get off. When he didn’t, he picked up his suitcase and tossed it out on the tarmac forcing him to jump out behind it. The suitcase cracked open and all the imported underclothes and lotions he was carrying spilled out on the taxiway. To add insult to injury, Chatterji then gunned the engines and scattered them even more as he lined up and took off, leaving this guy stranded miles from nowhere with stuff strewn all over the taxiway.

When Chatterji landed at Delhi, as expected, there was a jeep waiting to take him to his boss. As he walked into Man Singh’s office, he could see that Man Singh was livid with anger and fit to be tied. But before he could speak, Chatterji told Man Singh that he could do anything he wanted to him but to first listen to his story. Chatterji then went on to narrate how it all came about and told Man Singh that the threat of any punishment would not have made him forego the delicious moment of getting even for which he had waited all his life.

“Is that what happened?” said Man Singh to Chatterji “You should have waited till you got airborne to throw him out”

But Chatterji should've taken his suitcase and left it at the Delhi tarmac! That would be fair no? He did take his crates of rum.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 20 Apr 2020 10:35

Kartik wrote:
chetak wrote:a forward
But Chatterji should've taken his suitcase and left it at the Delhi tarmac! That would be fair no? He did take his crates of rum.

I would ask my dad if he remembers Chatterjee, he was examiner at AEB for 10 years (AEB had HS748 and Dakota for movement) and prior to that instructor NSS flying HS748. I would have run into him at social gathering unknowingly

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 20 Apr 2020 22:03

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Apr 2020 18:43

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1250 ... 89314?s=20 ---> Marshal Indian Air Force Arjan Singh's dynamic personality, professional competence, honesty of purpose in the service to IAF & the country, truly sets him apart as a leader & an icon of the Indian Air Force.

https://indianairforce.nic.in/content/marshal-iaf

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Apr 2020 21:17

Simulated video game from Digital Combat Simulator World...

Pakistani JF-17 Thunder Vs Indian Mirage 2000C Dogfight

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Apr 2020 05:17

^^^
Good one. Shows how quickly an aerial engagement ends ... within a few secs. Close dogfights are 50/50 could go either way.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 Apr 2020 06:00

Just remember that the aircraft in DCS are not modeled perfectly. The developers are limited by what information is available to them plus there are bugs and inaccuracies with the performance of many aircraft (and missiles) compared to their real life counterparts.

However within the confines of the game mechanics, both the pilots in that video are really good at dogfighting. I've watched several of the uploader's other videos in the past. Really entertaining. Plus, the debrief that he does with the tactical view after the fights are very informative. He tries to explain all the ideas and tactics used by both pilots, their mistakes if any and the strengths and limitations of each aircraft.

Meanwhile, there is another group of DCS players who call themselves Grim Reapers and have a Youtube channel who take viewer requests for recreating historical events, attacks, dogfights, engagements etc. They made a decent attempt to recreate both the Balakot strikes and the Feb 27 Swift Retort attack in DCS. They were ofcourse limited by unavailability of the upgraded M2k (along with the SPICE 2000) and Su-30MKI as well as the Mirage-III (for the PAF) in the game and had to manage with the Su-27 and Mirage-2000C which are limited to SARH missiles only.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 24 Apr 2020 00:40

Okay went through AFM May just for the Hellenic Vajra Dash V.
The capability is just scary. Pretty sure our Vajras will be the top dog for quite some time to come.I was also crossed with the cost of the program for the Mirage-2000I but now it is evident for me that it was much ado about nothing. Trust the VayuSena.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Apr 2020 00:52

MeshaVishwas wrote:Okay went through AFM May just for the Hellenic Vajra Dash V.
The capability is just scary. Pretty sure our Vajras will be the top dog for quite some time to come.I was also crossed with the cost of the program for the Mirage-2000I but now it is evident for me that it was much ado about nothing. Trust the VayuSena.

Is it possible to mention the salient points from the article here?

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 24 Apr 2020 01:00

nachiket wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:Okay went through AFM May just for the Hellenic Vajra Dash V.
The capability is just scary. Pretty sure our Vajras will be the top dog for quite some time to come.I was also crossed with the cost of the program for the Mirage-2000I but now it is evident for me that it was much ado about nothing. Trust the VayuSena.
Is it possible to mention the salient points from the article here?

Do not know whether this is Kosher, so please let me know if I have to take it down:
https://www.scribd.com/document/4579689 ... M-May-2020

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 24 Apr 2020 01:05

MeshaVishwas wrote:
nachiket wrote: Is it possible to mention the salient points from the article here?
Do not know whether this is Kosher, so please let me know if I have to take it down:
https://www.scribd.com/document/4579689 ... M-May-2020

This document has been removed.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 24 Apr 2020 01:09

SidSoma wrote:This document has been removed.

How about this?
<Link Edited by mod>

Oddly enough I can still check out the doc from the Scribd link

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Apr 2020 01:13

MeshaVishwas, I had to remove that link because it could land us in trouble because of copyright claims. That's why I was asking if you could summarize the main points which you felt were important since you read the article?

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 24 Apr 2020 01:51

nachiket wrote:MeshaVishwas, I had to remove that link because it could land us in trouble because of copyright claims. That's why I was asking if you could summarize the main points which you felt were important since you read the article?

My bad, here is the mota mota of the article
1)RDY-2 Radar can "acquire" targets at about 160 Km.
2)Present 24 of the said targets on a Display mentioned in the article as a Head Level Display(HLD).
3)The radar is paired with an ICMS Mk-3 (Integrated Counter Measures System) EW Suite.
4)This suite will prioritise the 8 most lethal threats and enable the pilots to release 4 BVRAAMs simultaneously.
5)The BVRAAM worth noting here is the MICA-IR which is passive(mentioned as "silent" in the article) which takes initial target info from the RDY-2 via Datalink
6)The RDY-2 stops supplying info to the same after a certain point and the missile becomes fully passive.
Also mentioned in the article that if the adversary aircraft has no MAWS, it is for all practical purposes, toast, post point 6.
7)There is a mission planning system called the OPERA which is used as per the mission objective to load specific info by the pilots per their briefing and get appropriate attacks from the EW system.
MMI:
1)MMI is also hugely improved with 4 MFDs and a HUD.
2)Largest MFD is located below and is a tactical situation display
3)This displays both Aerial and Ground "Targets and Threats" simultaneously, along with warnings, Jamming info and "Fighter Area Of Responsibility" boundaries, nav waypoints etc.
4)The HLD is for the Radar, the other two MFDs are for Flight Data and Engine and stores info.
5)The HLD also gives real time info about fellow -5s(known as Precise Participant Location and Identification)
6)A group of four -5s can exchange info without voice communication over a range of >400Miles

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Apr 2020 07:25

Thank you MeshaVishwas. Our M2k-I upgrade will be similar with some minor changes and is definitely a huge capability leap. One which our Mirages sorely needed to be competitive against the F-16C blk 50's of the PAF and the Chinese Flanker clones.

The Frenchies made sure to cover just about every aspect of the avionics in their upgrade. Didn't leave anything out aside from perhaps a MAWS. Not clear if the upgrade includes that. Probably not.

Only problem is the limited range of the MICA-RF compared to the AMRAAM-120C. And the lack of a new engine. That is the one department where the French could not keep up with the Americans in their F-16 upgrades. Every block of the F-16 kept getting more and more powerful versions of the PW-F100 or the GE-F110. The French had no reason to invest in improving the M53 since the Rafale uses the less powerful M88 and they never needed to. So the M2k's t:w ratio did not get any love unfortunately.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2020 10:20

We field the lower capability (but by not a huge amount) RDY-3 vs the RDY-2. Its basically a lower cost, simpler version of the RDY-2 which offers almost all the same capabilities, slightly reduced range, simpler to manufacture and maintain, uses the RDY-2's software. It has been chosen by India and the UAE as well. We also have the ICMS-Mk3.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2020 12:59

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Apr 2020 09:26

Indranil wrote:Astra has been integrated on Su-30. It will get integrated on LCA family and Mig-29s. I have not heard of the slightest of whispers of integration into Mirage 2000s, let alone Rafales.

The intent has been there, the priority matrix will likely be MiG-29/LCA next and finally Mirage 2000/Rafale as the Mica's are brand new and capable missiles, and Rafale comes with Meteor.

2013:
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 116_1.html

Just days from now, a Sukhoi-30MKI fighter will take off from an Indian Air Force (IAF) base, an Astra missile fitted on its wing. This will be the first-ever flight of this indigenously developed BVR missile, which the IAF hopes will add punch to its fleet of Sukhoi-30MKI, Mig-29, Mirage-2000 and Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) fighters.

2020:
http://www.spsmai.com/news/?id=423&q=BE ... o-sign-MoU

The IAF declared that the "Astra has been integrated with Sukhoi-30MKI and will be integrated with the Mirage-2000, Tejas and MiG-29 (fleets) in the future"

Sources said after the missile is inducted into the Su30MKI fighter jets from which it has been tested, the system would be integrated on other foreign-origin combat aircraft. The performance of the Astra, sources said, is regarded to be better than similar Russian systems currently in service.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... aign=cppst

Sources said after the missile is inducted into the Su30MKI fighter jets from which it has been tested, the system would be integrated on other foreign-origin combat aircraft.

Regarding the Rafale in 2015, intent was clearly to add the Astra:

https://www.deccanherald.com/content/49 ... tions.html

The ongoing negotiations with France to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets has hit an air-pocket with the French negotiators refusing to accept changed technical specifications from the Indian Air Force (IAF) for integrating the indigenous Astra missile to the French platform.

The IAF wants certain changes in the platform configuration to integrate the DRDO-made air-to-air, beyond-visual-range Astra missile, which was successfully test-fired from a Su-30 MKI aircraft. The missile was tested twice on consecutive days in March. Following the success, IAF wants modification and reconfiguration of some of the avionics and weapon systems to keep an window open for integration of Astra at a at a later date. The French side objected to the idea because a change in the configuration means going through the aircraft certification process once again, which would lead to an increase in cost. Instead, Paris wants to supply its own air-to-air missiles, which New Delhi will have to purchase additionally.

Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/content/49 ... tions.html

Note mention of AM mentioned, AM SBP Sinha who led the Rafale negotiations and this is what he says about Astra:

http://www.sps-aviation.com/ebook/18072019.pdf

The Astra is already integrated on the Su-30MKI and the IAF will certainly integrate this weapons system with the upgraded Mirage 2000, the MiG-29, light combat aircraft Tejas and may be with the Rafale jets that are expected to start arriving in September this year. The Astra is the first Beyond Visual Range, Air-to-Air Missile that is designed, developed and manufactured by the Indian aerospace industry. Its successful induction will greatly boost the BVR combat capability of the IAF.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Apr 2020 09:32

The Air Marshal posted more on it later too but I am too lazy to find it. It will be under my name somewhere on the forum. Wish we had some way to archive the useful posts.

srai · Post by **srai** » 26 Apr 2020 09:36

^^^

Checkout the section bottom left corner:

Adaptability: Mechanical, Electrical and Avionics adaptability to Su-30MKI, Mirage-2000, MiG-29, Tejas

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Apr 2020 10:10

Good find. Clearly you arent as lazy as i am.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 26 Apr 2020 11:38

I dont know what's done for sound bytes. I am speaking based on interaction with those who are actually doing the integration.

Think of the timelines. Today, they are integrating on Su-30s. Next up Mig29s. Next, LCA Mk1 family with Elta based radars. Then MWF/AMCA which would be Uttam based radars. When will they do the Mirage 2000s?

Trust Dassault to never let a window open for alternative integrations when they have a product to sell. I can't remember any instance where Dassault has let others to integrate weapons into Mirages/Rafales. Is there any?

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 26 Apr 2020 12:21

I think we are the exception to that rule with the Popeye,R-73 and God knows what else being loaded on the Mirage2000.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 26 Apr 2020 12:27

Who did the integration? Who got paid?

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 26 Apr 2020 12:28

Can python 5 CCM be carried on wingtip stations of MWF?
We have a stockpile of it in Spyder AD system and can also be used for air to air.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 26 Apr 2020 12:28

Indranil wrote:Who did the integration? Who got paid?

Israel?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 26 Apr 2020 12:30

It is much simpler to model the Mirage 2000 than the Su-30. It is much cheaper to test fly as well. Have you heard of any of our PGMs being tested on Mirage2000? On Su-30 and Jaguar. Next up Tejas and Mig29s. We should learn to read between the lines.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 26 Apr 2020 14:00

sankum wrote:
Indranil wrote:Who did the integration? Who got paid?
Israel?

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/iafs-fr ... ad-2067318

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Apr 2020 15:20

Indranil wrote:I dont know what's done for sound bytes. I am speaking based on interaction with those who are actually doing the integration.

Think of the timelines. Today, they are integrating on Su-30s. Next up Mig29s. Next, LCA Mk1 family with Elta based radars. Then MWF/AMCA which would be Uttam based radars. When will they do the Mirage 2000s?

Trust Dassault to never let a window open for alternative integrations when they have a product to sell. I can't remember any instance where Dassault has let others to integrate weapons into Mirages/Rafales. Is there any?

IMHO we have to distinguish between today (what's a priority) and what's possible (on the roadmap or feasible if push comes to shove).

Its about priorities. What you say can coexist with a possibility that Astra may be added later.

For instance to support your point, right now, the Mirage has a Mica plus RDY3 and EW combo which can outstick the JF17, F16, J10 and even early model J11s.

The MiG29s and LCAs need the Astra earlier.

However, this will not last as higher power radars come into play which allow the newer PRC missiles to be integrated, which handily outrange the Mica. Remember, the F16 is locked up. The only aircraft the PAF can "fix" is the JF17. The PRC is also already fielding an AESA plus PL15/21 on the J11, soon the J20.

So, this is the reason some in the IAF would want Astra on the Mirages. They are being prudent. They know one day the longer ranged PRC missiles will be in theater and some of these platforms will be able to fire the missile at ranges exceeding the Mica.

The Astra is roughly 30% longer ranged than the Mica.

That apart, the longer ranged RDY3 (it outranges the current F16, JF17, J10) can def. support a long range Astra. The tactical opportunities open up.

So this is why we have literally the entire who's who of the IAF telling you the plan, including the man who handled the Rafale acquisition and the IAF e integrated the Paveway 2 and Litening on the Mirage without their help. Then we roped in the Israelis to reverse engineer the French origin Digibus on the 2000H and a Brit agency to do the aero tests to integrate the R73E with the Dash HMDS without any Dassault involvement once the Magic 2 ran out of service life and we couldn't afford the new Mica. Then we integrated the SPICE 2000 and Crystal Maze, again without French involvement using the R73E expertise.

Once we finally agreed to have the upgrade, IAF went out of it's way to have HAL develop a seperate MC2 with Indian made s/w which ostensibly was required to add DASH, LDP, CMDS, ACMI.
The MDPU works with the existing AIB for weapons.

However, the Crystal Maze, SPICE are being added back to the Mirage 2000 upgrades, and this time, the work is being done by NAL, SDI not the Israelis or Brits.

So if they have access to the MDPU, of course they will seek to add the Astra, and later on, SAAW, NGARM and any other weapon as they see fit. Its but a matter of time and merely logical.

Reason being the Israeli, French munitions we have purchased are expensive and not infinite in number. And Indian munitions are becoming progressively more available.

We are currently adding multiple weapons to the Su30, Jaguar as well. It's not really that big a deal. The Astra development has given us a very thorough understanding of the process via test rigs at HAL and we know how to get it done.

The issue here is whether the Mirage 2000s radar, and other set up allows for the Astra. Here, might as well declare the RC400 ie RDY3 radar was designed to be compatible with Russian AAMs. Is it a coincidence then that the same radar was chosen for an IAF upgrade which service will field an AAM with a seeker derived from the aforesaid Russian missiles?

We go back to the French when we have to. I am fairly certain we will end up buying new LDPs from them for the Mirage 2000-5 and Rafale as the Litening G4Is fit better with the rest of the fleet. But in this case, the Astra on the Mirage is but a matter of time.

srai · Post by **srai** » 26 Apr 2020 19:27

Vishnu Som wrote this piece on R-73 and Mirage-2000.

IAF's French Mirages Fly With Russian Missiles, Thanks To Israeli 'Jugaad'

interesting titbit

...

"The Mica is about four times more capable than the R-73 in close combat and is integrated with the (Israeli) DASH helmet mounted sight as well," says an IAF pilot familiar with the upgrade process.

...

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 26 Apr 2020 20:01

I would be very happy if Astra gets strapped on to the Mirage. It is just that I have no reason to be optimistic right now.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Apr 2020 21:55

It will happen when it happens and all that.

I do think the combination of the RDY 3, its EW suite and the Mica are sufficient for now. But the Astra's range advantage over the Mica is just so obvious.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 26 Apr 2020 21:56

Isn't MICA a BVR missile vs R 73 a WVR?

Or MICA is designed for both BVR and WVR?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Apr 2020 22:21

Yes, it can be used for both WVR and BVR.

titash · Post by **titash** » 26 Apr 2020 23:32

Indranil wrote:It is much simpler to model the Mirage 2000 than the Su-30. It is much cheaper to test fly as well. Have you heard of any of our PGMs being tested on Mirage2000? On Su-30 and Jaguar. Next up Tejas and Mig29s. We should learn to read between the lines.

Sirjee - one point to note is the fleet size. Testing on the Su-30 means 272 aircraft can deploy the munition(s). Likewise 100+ Jaguars. The Mirages still number only 50 odd and are somewhat gold plated until the Rafales take over the nuclear delivery role.

The other reason is due to license manufacture, cost is lower and we have better access to the innards of the aircraft (both Su-30 and Jaguar). Project Vetrivel has a direct input into the avionics of the Su-30, LCA, and Darin II, III Jaguars. We can integrate on these aircraft whatever we want.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Apr 2020 23:40

If not for this bloody Covid crisis, we would have had the Su-30 upgrade commence soon, which had the potential for us to almost completely take over the Su-30 interior.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Apr 2020 23:47

The good news is the Jaguar upgrade has finally commenced, and that HAL has a dozen IAF folks on deputation leading/advising a bunch of these programs, which will go a long way in fixing previous generational hassles.

From the IAF perspective, the Mirage 2000 upgrade is good news but needs to speed up. The MiG-29 UPG are all but done. The Astra clearance makes the Su-30 get its edge back. And the 483 SDR order will ensure the Su-30s and Tejas (which are due to receive them first) will have a high-performance datalink.

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 27 Apr 2020 01:51

Isn't Crystal Maze same as Spice ? If not then what is Crystal Maze ?

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 27 Apr 2020 02:33

Kersi wrote:Isn't Crystal Maze same as Spice ? If not then what is Crystal Maze ?

Spice is a family of guidance kits IIRC and are free fall.
The former is a missile.