MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 30 Apr 2020 20:23

Aditya_V wrote:.... you hear reports of IAF aircraft down, you think the Indians hide losses like the Pakis. That's where Gafoora and IK that day were clearly waiting for Su 30 news. These are not technically skilled or rational people....

It presents a logical counter to India claiming F-16 kill. "if you insist on claiming F-16 without wreckage, then i will claim a Su-30"

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Apr 2020 20:55

Exactly. They have been monitoring this forum and others and are hence making claims that are replicas of the Indian account so as to take away the legitimacy of the Indian account. For instance, Indian accounts noted Mirage 2000s gave a good account of themselves vs the JF-17s. The PAF CAS specifically notes the reverse in an interview to that two bit hack Warnes.

This is a fairly straight forward info-war strategy. They also co-opted by coercion/appeal to patriotism, those who could be a challenge to the narrative, i.e. Kaiser Tufail. He came out with a claim that if India had indeed shot down the F-16, it would put out the radar data. India did, he went silent on that. Then he promptly gets a full "guided tour" of the event and pens a salacious account of the Feb 27th air battle, Feb 26th event, full of the most obstreperous BS, but hey, he has to live in that country, we don't.

At every stage of the way, ISPR was in full-blown ISPR mode while IAF was patting itself on the back that "we don't do Infowar". Sadly, they have yet to learn how much information they unnecessarily gave away, without even getting their version out to most of the world.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Apr 2020 21:01

So.e PAF sources monitored BRF so closely that they used the BRF listings of IAF pilots that Wing Commander is a IAF. Since then BRF deleted such listings. I doubt IAF monitors Paki forums to that extent.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Apr 2020 22:19

Our senior leadership were completely dismissive of Infowar. The events of Feb 27th lost a lot of deterrence value vs the Pak awaam who would have been a huge challenge for the PAF to handle, but for the fact IAF/GOI didn't even have a coherent strategy in play to take advantage at Paks expense.

You can see much the same right now, with assorted left wing, extremist rabble rousers given a free hand to call India the worst possible names. Until and unless it affects the senior leadership on a personal level, nobody from the party in power or the GOI bothers to respond. We act as if a stiff upper lip is the answer. Its got to the point that its affecting international perception and if not for China effing up post Covid propaganda, might have started affecting us economically too.

There is only so much amateurs and well intentioned veterans can do for the IAF. There is only so much individuals can do for India (and be called trolls in the bargain). The complete free pass to propaganda (almost) played a huge role in the CAA riots, violence, public infra damage. Played a huge role in alienating Indian communities to the point they are behaving irresponsibly, paranoid over the Covid crisis. Its not even debatable at this point.

khan · Post by **khan** » 30 Apr 2020 23:09

Infowar can only take you so far. IAF will not make the same mistake twice. The Pakistani's on the other hand have hundreds of potential terrorist targets IAF can hit.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Apr 2020 23:42

Are you going to hit them? Do you hit them everyday? No, you had one amazing chance, but you let that opportunity go despite them being kind enough to drop bombs in your territory, and where you did hit them, you didnt publicize it well enough or in a convincing manner and let the other side dominate the air waves. So at best you tested the waters, but that's it. The other side took advantage and spun your "test" as a complete victory and you let them.

This is the chalta hain attitude which is the crux of our security response. The Pakis and Chinese never stop looking for every oppty to knock us down. We play by some gentleman's rules sagely nodding to ourselves that "they know what we are, we need not prove ourselves to anyone else". Was Avenger 1 formation during AF day even widely publicized to rub in a point to the PAF?

Sadly everything is interconnected. From how you run CWG, to how you wage war, the whole world is watching 24/7. It influences investments - which Govt would advise investments in a country which is likely to have a conflict and is unable to defend itself, to how other countries treat you. Do your diplomats get extra leeway or are they made to wait that extra few minutes in the foyer.

And it influences how the other country reacts. What price did the TSP guys have for the Balakote strike beyond casualties? They are back to their usual, having managed the PR fall out vs their awaam, whether Kargil or Balakote, we are good at winning back the status quo, but not changing it in a manner that lasts.

The Chinese are or were past masters at perception, they still run the bit about efficiency. We? The perennial also rans, happy with ourselves for having "secretly" scored some extra marks in a test.

Are we prepped for a Balakote version 2? No, we are speaking of a 20% cut in the budget for next year, some babu proudly remarked we may even look at 40%, yet services may well be asked to go to war again, and have an inconclusive result because PAF re-armed faster than we did. What then?

nam · Post by **nam** » 01 May 2020 00:32

Any info war needs some true info underneath it to drive the narrative. Two things drove Pak narrative.
A burning Mig21 wreckage and intact target. For a SDRE person, these add "truth" to Pak narrative. They don't care about precision holes on the target roof.

You cannot run info war with "circumstantial evidence".

GoI should have provided some help to all the Indian OSINT who have been driving the F16 story.

IA & IAF guys would have the required information to atleast pin out where the F16 might have fallen.

We know a SAR heli went to pick up the downed pilots. We would have had the track of this heli to know where it went to.
Troops on our side have seen pilots coming down. We know the area.
Radar tracks should tell us where the F16 disappears.

I mean, when a flight goes down in accident, what are the methods used to figure out where it has fallen?

What stopped GoI to use satellite runs on these area to photo every meter of land and some image analysis software to notice changes (burnt trees, ground etc) ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2020 01:06

"You cannot run info war with "circumstantial evidence"."

This is completely and totally mistaken and portrays a horrible understanding of BDA!

Do you think the USAF and others went over each crash site during ODS and personally observed the shootdowns? Or during the 2nd GW? Or during the Balkan conflicts?

IAF has provided more information than most AF ever did. The problem is it was done in such a haphazard manner to such incompetent chaps (many in the mass media), that it literally had no effect. If it had been done in a more professional and organized manner, and even mass shared, with a clear understanding of how to exploit the data to their own benefit, what PAFs likely response would be to the share and how to counter that, it would have worked.

Radar tracks should tell us where the F16 disappears.

IAF provided this. But without proper geolocation. Without a detailed narrative showing how it went down, what happened, who did what. To this date, we still don't know official details of what PAF did beyond Abhi's VrC citation and "leaks" by insiders. The IAF could easily provide all that, it wont even affect its combat potential. Both sides know what tactics the other side used, given radar data and the use of AWACS. If IAF so wanted it could temper down its details and share the Paki ones, given Pakis hid all the details from their awaam, and put out the more embarrassing items from PAF viewpoint, hide the classified stuff. Unfortunately, their information dump was incomplete, so curious journos kept ferreting. And without a clear official source, they leaked whatever they heard including many things there was no reason to yack about.

The biggest mess was the hurried press conference with pieces of AMRAAM wreckage. What was the point in a rushed conference helmed by 3 service members without a clear idea of what the intent was? The press briefings. It may have been a test run to figure out Pakistani behavior. Fine. But even so, we missed many opportunities on the IW front.

Ultimately buck stops with GOI.

jpremnath · Post by **jpremnath** » 01 May 2020 01:47

Talking of infowar, I still cant wrap my head around why RAW/MI couldnt dug up the details of the pilot who was downed. PAF has only so many pilots and One of them died. And we couldnt track a high profile fighter pilot who never went home? Leaking the details and photoos of the pilot would have sent the pakis scrambling to cover their ass. Was it beyond us?.

nam · Post by **nam** » 01 May 2020 01:51

The issue is we are neither USAF nor IsAF, who have proven track record of "showing" destruction of targets. So even if they openly lie, not many will doubt it.

Info war is about providing enough material to make something look true, even if it is a lie. We cannot always do that with circumstantial evidence and technical points, which regular people don't understand. Professional forces will have their own criteria for BDA, but for the regular public, there needs to some obvious material like Videos & Images.

Granted IAF was preparing for a war and all this info war needs may not have been in their mind. I was hoping IAF would release night take off of M2K, going to their mission to bomb Balakot. Or even some video of the intense flying that happened after that.

Every new war by NATO starts with fighters taking off from their airbases or aircraft carriers (or tomahawk launches), on BBC. CNN, France TV etc..

Even the Russians show off CM launches in Syria by their large birds.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 01 May 2020 04:03

Karan M wrote:Our senior leadership were completely dismissive of Infowar. ....

The military leadership is often heard "those who need to know, know".

This is an example of how poorly they understand infowar. First of all, who needs to know? I say everybody in the enemy camp need to know. For a security state like Pakistan, where even the PM cannot get LoC casualties from Pak Army, there is tremendous value in being open about your achievements.

Take a leaf from the Indian Navy. Everytime a PLAN ship comes into IO they tweet its picture. What purpose does that solve? Surely we can let just the ship captain know that we can see them and let that be. No - you need to rub it in and let world know and most importantly every person in India should know that the Navy can intercept any threat.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2020 04:42

jpremnath wrote:Talking of infowar, I still cant wrap my head around why RAW/MI couldnt dug up the details of the pilot who was downed. PAF has only so many pilots and One of them died. And we couldnt track a high profile fighter pilot who never went home? Leaking the details and photoos of the pilot would have sent the pakis scrambling to cover their ass. Was it beyond us?.

This comes under the category of a capability which if we have, we should never reveal. If you have moles inside Pak, able to ferret out such details, would we keep them for the sake of 1 pilot, or a future conflict where their contribution would be 100x more useful.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2020 04:44

Aditya G wrote:
Karan M wrote:Our senior leadership were completely dismissive of Infowar. ....
The military leadership is often heard "those who need to know, know".

This is an example of how poorly they understand infowar. First of all, who needs to know? I say everybody in the enemy camp need to know. For a security state like Pakistan, where even the PM cannot get LoC casualties from Pak Army, there is tremendous value in being open about your achievements.

Take a leaf from the Indian Navy. Everytime a PLAN ship comes into IO they tweet its picture. What purpose does that solve? Surely we can let just the ship captain know that we can see them and let that be. No - you need to rub it in and let world know and most importantly every person in India should know that the Navy can intercept any threat.

Exactly! You nailed it. There is a tremendous value in showing the awaam of Pak that there so called shaheens are damp squibs.

We squandered a historic opportunity and are still not making use of it, whereas Pakistan is busy inciting disaffection against India quite successfully amongst its citizens.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2020 04:51

nam wrote:The issue is we are neither USAF nor IsAF, who have proven track record of "showing" destruction of targets. So even if they openly lie, not many will doubt it.

So you get that support from "willing" analysts. Do folks seriously think the USAF and IDFAF play by the book during a conflict and not get their POV out by hook or crook. From embedded reporters to the myth of Israeli invincibility via books, articles, documentaries, both sides maintain a ready stock of willing supporters. Does anyone seriously believe random Aussie and other OSINT type folks suddenly woke up to do an analysis on Balakote and did such a shoddy effort, and ISPR had nothing to do with it? Thing is they do it. We walk around with stiff upper lips.

Info war is about providing enough material to make something look true, even if it is a lie. We cannot always do that with circumstantial evidence and technical points, which regular people don't understand. Professional forces will have their own criteria for BDA, but for the regular public, there needs to some obvious material like Videos & Images.

90% of all the BVR type kills shown on Discovery channel etc are based off of technical claims. No professional AF had the time or energy or ability to accurately map BVR kills or bomb attacks, beyond what their sensors show. Yet they are reconstructed with a willing suspension of disbelief.

You need to put out enough information for the professionals to say "hmmm makes sense", not give out anything classified and also additional corroborating information. Add all that with fancy graphics, and that's good enough for the lay person.

By not doing so, IAF lost its opportunity.

Granted IAF was preparing for a war and all this info war needs may not have been in their mind. I was hoping IAF would release night take off of M2K, going to their mission to bomb Balakot. Or even some video of the intense flying that happened after that.

Every new war by NATO starts with fighters taking off from their airbases or aircraft carriers (or tomahawk launches), on BBC. CNN, France TV etc..

Even the Russians show off CM launches in Syria by their large birds.

Launches alone won't do the trick. The aim is to have a narrative. See the surgical strikes videos. They do it quite well. Why were certain politicians in India so upset with those videos?

Because once India released those videos, their ability to spread FUD went.

PAF put its pilots on stage to do a song and dance. We couldn't even run videos with their faces blurred talking a suitably sanitized version of what went on in during those days of conflict.

When somebody searches for the Indo Pak fight on Feb 27th and the 26th, whom do you think will be found easier on YT and will be seen more widely.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 01 May 2020 05:51

I am actually very impressed on how ISPR managed to not let a single picture or video of the downed F16 come out in a public forum. This they did in an age where cell phones, and mobile net connectivity is available throughout NaPak. We on the other hand lost the narrative and handed them a public victory, of losing a Mig, on a platter because we fail to grasp the basics. I have no idea what operational secrets will have to be revealed to let the truth out but its horrendous that we do not have the assets nor information to counter their narrative of no F16 losses.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 May 2020 07:39

I don't think the Indian beauracary educated badly knows how important defense and security are. They are more jealous of forces. If they wanted they could have got enough videos from POK on the F16 wreakage and Pilots and put it all in wraps. Over here also regarding the Amraam, we have a far higher inventory of BVR missiles and if the IAF wad as determined as Pakis we too could have fired R77s. But we were more worried about ROE and descalation. That's why the MRCA circus, delay in MK1A orders, priority for Babu Judiciary NGO media Politici nexus is totally screwed up.

If you look at the whole sequence from 14-Feb-19 onwards, Pakis had planned pretty well- Tactically brilliant but Strategically?

They used the cross LOC trade route to smuggle large quantities of RDX, brainwashed one fellow to do the attack, it was such a large attack they knew IAF had to respond.

They had thier aircraft and SAM's ready but underestimated IAF, when IAF strike was successful they immediately implemented Plan B which actually did not go that well.

There were targets for SWIFT Retort

1) Hit IA targets with PGM- all 11 failed, you don't come to use H-4 and LGB's for near misses, 83REK type dumb bombs would do

2) IAf aircraft would be forced to enter Paki territory and they planned to liberally use AMRAAM's and bring multiple IAF aircraft down

2) Used UAV to penetrate IAF defenses, 1 shot down near Naliya Airbase

3) And then ask international community to interfere.

In swift retort the shooting down Wing Commander Abhinandan aircraft and friendly fire of MI 17 was a bonus but I think they were pretty shocked at the F-16 loss and successful IAF strikes.

But what is clear is BIF is always plotting and scheming, They are not interested in peace.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2020 18:00

Our biggest mindset issue, which I often see in interactions with older gen folks esp those who haven't seen TSP behavior first hand, is a misplaced belief "that they are like us". This continues to running down the present GOI as being anti-M if they hit back hard at Pak.

The amount of hatred the average Pakistani bears for native Indian faiths, culture is completely ignored.

The PAF is no better. I had a few interactions on FB with PAF pilots etc who were fed kool-aid that the MiG-21 Bison was completely clueless, we were defeated etc. What's interesting is all those interactions began with these PAF pilots using religious slurs.

Its de-jure normal for them. They are consumed with a superiority complex and desire to show off at all costs, and defeat India, irrespective of tactics used.

There was a discussion on 1971 in some forum with many Pakistani vets. Not one expressed remorse over the rape of Bengali women. They were all playing victim.

Religious bigotry is now part and parcel of the Pakistani pysche, their society and hence they cannot believe in, or adjust to peace. They see it as a defeat.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 01 May 2020 18:36

Are you sure that religious bigotry is part and parcel of ONLY TSP psyche? and is it only NOW?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 May 2020 19:51

honestly, u guys are making too much of this infowar. PAF, PA have a much greater need of info war as they have a country to run. IA, IAF dont need to run a country..they do their job and go home. All who have to know what happened , know it. The Pakis dont even accept they lost 1971 !!! or they had PA on top of kargil heights !!

chetonzz · Post by **chetonzz** » 01 May 2020 20:28

manjgu wrote:honestly, u guys are making too much of this infowar. PAF, PA have a much greater need of info war as they have a country to run. IA, IAF dont need to run a country..they do their job and go home. All who have to know what happened , know it. The Pakis dont even accept they lost 1971 !!! or they had PA on top of kargil heights !!

+1 to that...please dont mind, may be we should post on this thread when new evidences and data/ interview show up on internet...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2020 21:37

somdev wrote:There is a sort of caste boundary in PAF. Rajputs, Punjabis, Pathan and then the Urdu speaking Mohajirs. Gone are those days when Urdu speaking upper middle class Shias and Mohajirs from Karachi would climb the higher echelons of PAF by way of merit. A decade back PAF had to routinely drop cadets selected for service because of lack of aircrafts at all stages of training and deployment. The privileged ones usually get to serve friendly air forces in middle-east ... sort of cheap labour exports with $ per-diems and perks and therefore those ones try to send/migrate their wards/family off to Dubai, UK, USA. The rest grind on with whatever resources they have. PAF is not a senior service within the Pakistan armed forces and therefore anyone below 1 star or even Air Commodore rank is just a commodity. Perform or perish for there are millions waiting in the queue outside. Such discrimination has led to mass migration of the educated and intelligent youth outside the country seeking permanent residence elsewhere!

Interesting viewpoint, do you have a source?

I must admit I was taken aback to see how rabid some PAF pilots were. Could actually tie in to your observations above.

I also think there is some sort of unwritten hierarchy wherein the "best" are flying the Vipers and the 2nd tier the JF-17s but they consider themselve equal to the former (the former may differ), whereas the rest end up with the Mirage 3/5s and the F-7PGs.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 01 May 2020 21:59

..There was a discussion on 1971 in some forum with many Pakistani vets. Not one expressed remorse over the rape of Bengali women. They were all playing victim.

Religious bigotry is now part and parcel of the Pakistani pysche, their society and hence they cannot believe in, or adjust to peace. They see it as a defeat.

From 1971 war: 'Lust for wine, greed for houses'

The rot began at the very top from the East Pakistan army's commander, Lt-General A.A.K. Niazi, who the commission said acquired a "notorious reputation for sexual immorality and indulgence in the smuggling of paan from East to West Pakistan".
..
"The troops said when the commander was himself a raper, how could they be stopped?"

From another link
https://m.rediff.com/news/2006/dec/26claude.htm

A few days later when the US president said 'the goddamn Indians' were preparing for another war, Kissinger retorted 'they are the most aggressive goddamn people around.'

Well with neighbours like this, it's no surprise unless otherwise.

opinion, it will continue to go on recklessly. We, however, support the stand of Pakistan. This is known to the world. If they (the Indians) are bent on provoking such a situation, then we cannot sit idly by.' Kissinger answered that Zhou should know that the US sympathies also lay with Pakistan.

pakis arranged secret meeting between USA and Chinese PM. And then it became echo chamber of gross loose talk against India. Then pakis got nukes from China, then Chinese became trading partners and after a while looted everyone, then a bio disease was let loose.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 01 May 2020 22:15

IAF silence and general apathy towards PR frustrates me to no end.

Forget Balakot. There are many missions where they could have be more open with an official publication, documentary and ideally both. eg: UN operations, strike at LoC in 2002 and many small ops like that

All of that history is just disappearing into the ether.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 May 2020 23:57

Thanks for the details - very interesting. India is democratizing like crazy, these guys seem to be stuck in a weird confused identity.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 May 2020 04:02

My take on the lack of infowar by the Indian Armed Forces is that the 3 chiefs, the CDS, the vice chiefs and the senior officers live in the past century.
One can constantly see them tweaking their moustaches and pooh-poohing fancy technology, cyber-war, space-war, info-war.

This is a culture that they have created to protect the institution in a socialist era, with bad politics and armed forces hating communists in the media. That culture required the armed forces to function under the radar, not rake ANY controversy, silence and severely punish any whistle-blowers.

The need of the hour is a slick media management, high tech computer graphics, control the narrative in desi and international DDM
Wonder when this will change, it is high time this happened.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 02 May 2020 04:31

Gagan wrote:My take on the lack of infowar by the Indian Armed Forces is that the 3 chiefs, the CDS, the vice chiefs and the senior officers live in the past century.
One can constantly see them tweaking their moustaches and pooh-poohing fancy technology, cyber-war, space-war, info-war.

This is a culture that they have created to protect the institution in a socialist era, with bad politics and armed forces hating communists in the media. That culture required the armed forces to function under the radar, not rake ANY controversy, silence and severely punish any whistle-blowers.

The need of the hour is a slick media management, high tech computer graphics, control the narrative in desi and international DDM
Wonder when this will change, it is high time this happened.

Rather a simplistic view Gagan

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 May 2020 07:46

When it comes to Vipers in PAF, there is a set progression pattern.

You need to have 400-500 hours on Mirages and a good track record before you can be considered for F-16 duty. And you'd have to be extremely lucky if you were flying F-7 to be considered for F-16.

Given the low numbers of F-16 and higher pilot-to-cockpit ratio, they can afford to do this.

Most of accidents tend to happen when entry level pilots are learning the ropes on new fast jets. With seasoned pilots being only allowed to convert and fly F-16s, no wonder their accident rate isn't too bad. Also, they fly less. When as a nation, you've to be cautious of every penny that you can afford, you won't give 120-40 hours for all your pilots. Consumables will east up money!

So, an average F-16 pilot in PAF is likely to have more flying hours and experience versus an average IAF pilot across any of its fighter types.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 02 May 2020 10:30

rohitvats wrote: With seasoned pilots being only allowed to convert and fly F-16s, no wonder their accident rate isn't too bad.

Their Falcons have probably spent a disproportionately high amount of time on the ground than in the air, compared to say our Mirages.
IIRC, they were out of action for the entire time they were under sanctions and had to resort to cannibalization to keep a few in the air.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 May 2020 13:44

Gagan, the forces are not a monolithic entity. Although there is some truth in what you say, unlike in Pakistan where everything is considered to be part of the fauz's mandate, here pay ops is mostly considered beyond the mandate. It would be interesting to know what the various defence PRO's think their official mandate is. Anyone knows any retired officers who have served as one recently ?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 03 May 2020 06:28

Rahul M wrote:Gagan, the forces are not a monolithic entity. Although there is some truth in what you say, unlike in Pakistan where everything is considered to be part of the fauz's mandate, here pay ops is mostly considered beyond the mandate. It would be interesting to know what the various defence PRO's think their official mandate is. Anyone knows any retired officers who have served as one recently ?

Rahul I have been on a Defence Correspondents Course run by MoD in my previous life as a journalist...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 May 2020 16:50

Excellent. What is the official mandate of the PRO's as they understand it? Is psy-ops, information warfare etc considered a part of their domain or is it considered ungentlemanly and the like ?

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 04 May 2020 08:49

somdev wrote:UAE air hq employs over 200 PAF pilots and pilot instructors at any point in time in their payroll. Now add Saudi, Qatar, Turkey and other states. They even partake in actual missions and exercises abroad under the UAE banner. The arrangement is working well and more robust than just participating in exercises as PAF.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-p ... -us-drill/

Not anymore - at least in the case of UAE. They first removed them from flying duties following the Daesh ops, then gradually gave them golden parachutes to leave. All but a few technical staff remain, away from airbases shared with the US.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 04 May 2020 09:25

somdev wrote:UAE air hq employs over 200 PAF pilots and pilot instructors at any point in time in their payroll. Now add Saudi, Qatar, Turkey and other states. They even partake in actual missions and exercises abroad under the UAE banner. The arrangement is working well and more robust than just participating in exercises as PAF.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-p ... -us-drill/

Somdevji, this is an article dated 2016. What is the situation now? Is the Momin still exercising with the Kafirs? Is it OK to say tauba tauba?
Gautam

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 May 2020 22:47

It is a myth - started by NaPakis themselves - that the PAF will have access to these nations' combat aircraft in times of war. There are a number of reasons why this will not happen. Posting articles like this only serves to add fuel to that myth.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 04 May 2020 23:43

Rakesh wrote:It is a myth - started by NaPakis themselves - that the PAF will have access to these nations' combat aircraft in times of war. There are a number of reasons why this will not happen. Posting articles like this only serves to add fuel to that myth.

+1 to it....in fact the myth of PAF superiority runs so strong and the myth of f16 invincibility..in last few months had a chance to hear a lot from a paki madam who had a PAF ex....and as per her...he just couldnt stop talking about F16 everytime they met..eventually the relationship crashed like the sherdil....

rakeshji what is your take that on the viewpoint that war planners would always look for worst case scenario..blood runs thicker..there can always be excuses one way or other..my view on this is that ummah would always prefer pakis over us for the simple reason that it will be them who will do the khadim fight rather than us...they may officially look the other way round ..but weapons could always be passed around..

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 May 2020 00:35

ArjunPandit wrote:+1 to it....in fact the myth of PAF superiority runs so strong and the myth of f16 invincibility..in last few months had a chance to hear a lot from a paki madam who had a PAF ex....and as per her...he just couldnt stop talking about F16 everytime they met..eventually the relationship crashed like the sherdil....
rakeshji what is your take that on the viewpoint that war planners would always look for worst case scenario..blood runs thicker..there can always be excuses one way or other..my view on this is that ummah would always prefer pakis over us for the simple reason that it will be them who will do the khadim fight rather than us...they may officially look the other way round ..but weapons could always be passed around..

Arabs do not even consider NaPakis to be "real" Muslims. Every now and then, they throw Pakistan some baksheesh to keep them quiet. In the words (I paraphrase) of Major Gaurav Arya (retd) - Prime Minister Imran Khan has perfected the art of "institutionalized begging" for Pakistan.

In the long run, security and well being for the Arabs lie in being allied to the United States, India and other like minded democracies. Loaning F-15s and F-16s to the NaPakis in a conflict vis-a-viv India is not a good option for them. Forget long term goal, there is not even a single short term advantage for the Arabs to do so.

The PAF training with and flying for Arab air forces has zero value for them in a conflict with the IAF.

NaPakis view their air force being superior vis-a-viv India by the number of Indian planes they shot and the number they lost in comparison. Their entire history lies in IAF losses vs PAF losses.

India views their air force in political and military objectives being met. Losses are part and parcel of the game. Ex Gagan Shakti proved that.

That is the difference.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 May 2020 01:07

Put yourself in the Arab's shoes.

* Pakistan exports opium and terrorism.
* India is perfect for investment and growth.

At the end of the day, which is the better geopolitical bet? Where would you invest your money? Baksheesh is NOT investment.

All this Ummah talk is good onlee at the Madrassa and with the Mullahs.

At the end of the day, money counts. It is the only thing that matters.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 05 May 2020 01:17

I know it is OT, but very valid points, in fact that is why the palestine issue has been given up beyond usual lip service...

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 05 May 2020 01:40

Rakesh wrote:Put yourself in the Arab's shoes.

At the end of the day, money counts. It is the only thing that matters.

For long the Arabs have been traders : Slaves, Silk, Spices etc.
They care two hoot to the SoothAsian converts
Money talks
Inside every Arab there is a trader 'looking for kill'

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 May 2020 03:07

Rakesh wrote:It is a myth - started by NaPakis themselves - that the PAF will have access to these nations' combat aircraft in times of war. There are a number of reasons why this will not happen. Posting articles like this only serves to add fuel to that myth.

I have posted this before, will post it again. Several years back, there was a significant joint planning exercise by some Arab AF with a potential flashpoint being an Indo-Pak war going on in the background. Not one Arab AF considered a transfer of aircraft to PAF. Not one. This was before India even picked up its economic capability, enhanced its ties and became an even bigger consumer of their oil.