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Kersi wrote:Which submarines have been proven in war ?
Since the Korean war?
The SSN HMS Conqueror (S48) which sunk the Argentine cruiser General Belgrano during the 1982 Falklands war.
PNS Hangor (S131) which sank the INS Khukri during the 1971 war.
The vanishing act by PNS Saad fitted with air independent propulsion (a technology that allows submarines to stay under water for a longer period than normal submarines) swung the entire Indian Navy into action
“From the location near Karachi from where it vanished, it could reach Gujarat coast in three days and Mumbai in five days. It was seen as a major threat to the security of the country,” the sources said.
Soon, anti-submarine warfare specialist warships and aircraft were positioned to help hunt for the missing Pakistani submarine. As the days progressed, the Indian Navy kept expanding its area of search for the Pakistani boat and satellites were also used to locate it.
After 21 days of an extensive search, the Navy finally located the submarine on the western side of Pakistan. It was sent there for hiding, to ensure a covert capability in case of extension in hostilities in the aftermath of the Balakot airstrikes.
Rakesh wrote:Watch this video on the Type 636.3 boat...
so let me try to understand this., first of all, it is incredible that the Astute submarine was detected ., apparently the kilo (s) did not let the Astute get into firing position., i presume the Astute was trying to launch cruise missiles., so then how exactly would the Russian sub (s) do it ?
Also a sub like Kilo is deadly in the hands of a well-trained crew !.. hats off to them !..shows war is not just about technology., but the people who man them
kit wrote:Also a sub like Kilo is deadly in the hands of a well-trained crew !.. hats off to them !..shows war is not just about technology., but the people who man them
So, why not just buy/ build new Kilos (not abndoned junk), and scrap the Project 75I altogether?
kit wrote:Also a sub like Kilo is deadly in the hands of a well-trained crew !.. hats off to them !..shows war is not just about technology., but the people who man them
So, why not just buy/ build new Kilos (not abndoned junk), and scrap the Project 75I altogether?
That would be typical short term thinking we have been doing, for the long term since we are already building our own SSN, we can get weapons, combat Management, Hull steel, outfitting etc in common with those SSN.
Any extra Kilos are only stop-gap solutions.The long term plans for a robust sub force ,both nuclear and conv. AIP must be prepared and executed. New subs must carry new missiles and weapons for anti-ship,sub and land attack. Only N- subs can accomplish all tasks carrying enough weaponry.We need two types of AIP subs,one prioritised for ASW and anti-ship,v.stealthy,with additional Shkval rocket torpedoes and the other with land attack missiles in addition to ASW/ anti-ship weaponry. UVLS cells carrying a mix resolve the missile option of operation,but larger sized conv. subs demand larger power plants,etc. We shouldn't make the mistake that OZ is doing building a v.expensive class of conv. boat that attempts to mimic a genuine N-sub. The IN need large numbers of conv. boats,cheaper than N-boats, for IOR ops like sanitising the chokepoints from ingress of large nos. of PLAN subs, eliminating the PN sub threat requiring a blockade of Paki ports, plus escorting our energy supplies from the Gulf,etc. Reducing dependence on fossil fuels through solar power,wind,etc. as many nations are doing should be a priority,but that's another topic.
Future weaponry aboard our subs will include
BMos- NG,Kalibir perhaps,Nirbhay,and long endurance WG torpedoes for anti-sub/ship. Some kind of UUV aboard is a must too to be able to scout ahead,extending the sphere of detection.
For the interim,leasing more upgraded Akulas will give us a qualitative edge over the PLAN in carrying out ops in the ICS and beyond.
Last edited by Philip on 29 Apr 2020 06:35, edited 1 time in total.
Kersi wrote:
Which submarines have been proven in war ?
WW2 proved the value of subs. It was perhaps the most feared German weapon and sunk up to 3000 allied ships.
Even today, subs are one of the greatest fears of even a carrier group. It can singelhandly challenge the whole group.
Particularly the nuclear subs are very dangerous, as they can stay submerged for up to 90 days.
Germany had operated over 1000 uboats and lost over 700 of them in ww2. They are effective when they are operated in large nos.
In WW2, They were also much cheaper than large surface combatants where as top of line modern SSKs are more expensive than even DDGs (we paid around bill each for scorpene adj for inflation).
Rishirishi wrote:
WW2 proved the value of subs. It was perhaps the most feared German weapon and sunk up to 3000 allied ships.
Even today, subs are one of the greatest fears of even a carrier group. It can singelhandly challenge the whole group.
Particularly the nuclear subs are very dangerous, as they can stay submerged for up to 90 days.
Germany had operated over 1000 uboats and lost over 700 of them in ww2. They are effective when they are operated in large nos.
In WW2, They were also much cheaper than large surface combatants where as top of line modern SSKs are more expensive than even DDGs (we paid around bill each for scorpene adj for inflation).
If you think about the time and effort IN spent on hunting for a lone Paki sub in the recent times, 4 or 5 of them in the Arabian sea at any time during a conflict can not be dismissed as a minor scare. They will tie up most of the navy. For the pakis a single missile attack on any of our shore assets, be it military or industrial is a big win. That wretched nation lives on perception victories.
Remember oldies speaking about how the Arabian Sea is super conducive for Submarine ops and a how much of a nightmare the ASW ops are.
Explains why Pakis have this laser focus on Subs.
jpremnath wrote:
If you think about the time and effort IN spent on hunting for a lone Paki sub in the recent times, 4 or 5 of them in the Arabian sea at any time during a conflict can not be dismissed as a minor scare. They will tie up most of the navy. For the pakis a single missile attack on any of our shore assets, be it military or industrial is a big win. That wretched nation lives on perception victories.
Here's my take on this..next naval conflict will be initiated by us. I am sure plannings will be made before hand. We anyways will go for offensive and will be ready for such hits..the area to protect will be key ports, e.g., Mumbai, Kandla, Hyd, Vishakhapattanam etc posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=2431007
The Indian Mil Establishment's views on 'Objectives' totally discounts the effect on public morale. Pakis understand this better, their primary objective is to convince the average paki in the streets that they can strike India and the 'meek indians' wont dare to react. They dont care about the deaths in their ranks as long as their image to the public of being the mythical super-warriors is intact. And our govt and forces mostly comply and doesnt feel the need to burst this bubble. .
I remember during the UPA era, when there was frequent CF violations on the LOC, the announcements by the army about it without saying what they are doing to stop it only gave the image of class nerd being slapped around by the bully. By not announcing how we replied in kind and more, we are making the public feel that we are not strong enough. It took the public announcements of Surgical strikes and later Balakot strikes which gave some of that mojo back. It is high time the Govt realise the importance of having a perception management.
Two days back the army released the photo of an arrested militant during the ops. The ANI image showed a terrorist with a defiant face with a exhausted looking Jawan next to him. This image will be hit in the SM circles of Jehadis and Kashmir public. Im sure most of you guys have seen it. They could have released any other image if they realised how important optics is in an asymmetric warfare. For the enemy it is always perception victory that sustains his existence. If we dont cut off that at its roots, we will keeping loosing our precious Jawans.
This post doesnt belong in this thread. Mods please feel free to delete this.
The Israelis NEVER show faces of their soldiers for obvious reasons.We should do the same. Except perhaps when the highest gallantry awards are given. The enemy looks for every leaked opportunity. A few decades ago,there was great consternation when a high-level conference of top IB and intel officers from other agencies being addressed by a sr.minister ,was shown in a TV news item where the camera panned hhe faces of the attendees! Insiders said that it had compromised the identities of many in the intel community who were in the IB and other intel outfits, involved in counter-intel,etc.,etc.,some tailing firang spies.Their identities would've unintentionally been exposed to foreign missions.
Similarly,even submariners' identities should not be disclosed in media clips,perhaps the CO whose idenhity would be difficult to keep a secret. We have so many cases of the Pakis attempting entrapment of our serving forces using social media. Not too long ago there was the sensational busting of a Paki spy ring at several naval bases incl. Vizag,etc.
Coming back to the P-75I prog. which I posted the problems the OZ acquisition of French conv. subs was experirncing with huge cost overruns, must be a lesson to the project heads of the P-75I programme.Let's not make the design too ambitious which will make achieving performance targets difficult to achieve.There is a huge RMA in UW going on right now with the RN equipping its new SSNs with UW autonomous " gliders", to explore the deep,sea water characteristics as ocean features keep changing, which report their findings to the mother sub and other naval assets.
jpremnath wrote:The Indian Mil Establishment's views on 'Objectives' totally discounts the effect on public morale. Pakis understand this better, their primary objective is to convince the average paki in the streets that they can strike India and the 'meek indians' wont dare to react. They dont care about the deaths in their ranks as long as their image to the public of being the mythical super-warriors is intact. And our govt and forces mostly comply and doesnt feel the need to burst this bubble. .
I remember during the UPA era, when there was frequent CF violations on the LOC, the announcements by the army about it without saying what they are doing to stop it only gave the image of class nerd being slapped around by the bully. By not announcing how we replied in kind and more, we are making the public feel that we are not strong enough. It took the public announcements of Surgical strikes and later Balakot strikes which gave some of that mojo back. It is high time the Govt realise the importance of having a perception management.
Two days back the army released the photo of an arrested militant during the ops. The ANI image showed a terrorist with a defiant face with a exhausted looking Jawan next to him. This image will be hit in the SM circles of Jehadis and Kashmir public. Im sure most of you guys have seen it. They could have released any other image if they realised how important optics is in an asymmetric warfare. For the enemy it is always perception victory that sustains his existence. If we dont cut off that at its roots, we will keeping loosing our precious Jawans.
This post doesnt belong in this thread. Mods please feel free to delete this.
A very good point.
Pakistani military staff have a lot of privileges in Pakistan. Their actions may be guided by their interest to protect the privileges and their greatest fear may be loss of respect and pride. f you want to hurt the PA, bombs will not help as much as humiliation will.
During Balakot strike, I was watching several Pakistani news channels. To my great surprise, the TSP Military became defensive on several occasions. In my perception the underlying issue seem to be; "why do you nurture those jehadis" ?
Sorry bombs bring humiliation, maintaining ceasefires and allowing them space keeps thier respectability. The Paki military and many Kashmiri/ BIF behaves that the due to the propaganda that no Muslim army has lost to the infidels in 1000 years. This reinforces thier propaganda, Bangladesh defeat is dismissed due Yayha drinking and Islamic behavior (in truth he behaved like the rest of em). A steady stream of miltary defeats and those myths will shatter. Capture of Wing Commander Abhinandan was such a propaganda coup that the PAF was able to hide a string of failures from weapons misses to F16 loss and failure at Balakot. Wondering about the fake Su 30 kill, that's because when the MI 17 came down, Paki channels splashed images of IAF aircraft . Some sections PAF also for a few hours after firing 5 Amraams at the Su 30 also thought they had kill.
Rishi,sorry for the late reply,but we allegedly had them by their goolies. Had it come to anything more serious,their goolies would've been well and truly cracked.
https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 13544?s=20 ---> Leading naval manufacturer Naval Group has confirmed that it is in touch with both the Indian shipyards shortlisted for the ambitious P75I submarine contract but believes that an exclusive arrangement needs to be worked out to take ahead the project.
The Untold Story of the Development of the Submarine Force of India
Jul 22, 2020
Soumik Pyne
In 1957, the government of India requested Lord Mountbatten, then the First Sea Lord, to provide India a target submarine which could be the oldest and cheapest available to serve as a foundation to build a submarine force for the Indian Navy (IN), a request he flatly refused to consider. In 1959 the Indian Navy asked the UK for three operational submarines, this never happened as the UK refused the soft credit terms sought by India. The Indian Navy finally got a Break when the Soviet Union came to India’s rescue and provided the Indian Navy with eight Foxtrot class submarines between 1967 & 1974.
Submarine acquisition in India was hit by a double whammy in the 1980s with the German HDW Submarine scam in 1987 which saw the much required class of six HDW type 209 submarines being acquired being reduced to four boats. To make matters worse, India also had to prematurely return the Charlie class SSN it had leased from the USSR for 10 years after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, it had only served the IN for a bare three years. The Russians came to the rescue once again and the fleet was bolstered by 10 877EKM (KILO) class boats which were inducted between 1986 & 2000.
In the year 2000 the Indian Navy adopted a 30 year submarine building plan which would see the induction of 24 new submarines by 2030 with 18 SSKs(Submersible ship killer) & 6 SSNs(Submersible ship nuclear) joining the fleet by 2030. This was later tweaked to 24 SSKs with all 6 SSNs getting their own separate category & $14Bn approval under the strategic nuclear submarine program in February 2015.The plan called for half the Slated strength of 24 SSKs or 12 boats to be built on two simultaneous lines with foreign collaboration by 2012 with another 12 to be built completely of an indigenous design between 2012-30, needless to say that plan lies in tatters.
The French Naval group Scorpene was a natural choice for the first six of the 12 submarines to be built with foreign collaboration as Indian authorities had actually been in negotiations for a Scorpene line at MDL as far back as 1998. Post the Kargil conflict these older negotiations were clubbed in with the new 30 year plan & a deal for 6 Scorpene SSKs was signed in October 2005. All six submarines were to be built in the MDL shipyard at Mumbai in a plan called P75 or the Kalvari Class with technology transfer from France enabling the construction of more if required . It is interesting to note that the Press at that time reported the Scorpene deal to have been more expensive than a similar offer by HDW for the Type 214, the deal then was apparently decided in favor of the Scorpene pointing to the French agreement to install Indian indigenous AIP & an ability to fire Exocet missiles.
It is also interesting to note that as far back as 2005 International defence publications indicated the Scorpene yard at Mumbai as a potential source for new Scorpene SSKs for Taiwan as well. That said a lot changed down the line,the Indian Navy Scorpene program faced a lot of setbacks and wherein all six submarines were slated to be commissioned by 2012 the delayed signing saw that timeline first pushed back to 2017 . The timeline for completion of the six Scorpene now lies in 2022 with the fourth craft of the series set to be launched later in 2020. The program has suffered other setbacks apart from the expanded timeline as well with the DRDO AIP getting further delayed which will see this rather elusive DRDO developed Air independent Propulsion module only be installed onto the Scorpene units on their first refit sometime after 2024. Apart from this the Blacklisting of Finmeccanica saw the Indian Scorpene development program blocked off from acquiring Italian Blackshark heavy torpedoes that were initially selected as standard fitment for the type in 2005.A new tender for 100 Heavyweight torpedoes has been released as recently as January 2020 with The German Firm Atlas Elektronik with the Seahake mod 4 & French Naval Group with the F21 the only two respondents. A final selection is yet to be made. This program faced another setback when on 24th August 2016 “The Australian “released a set of 22000 papers with Technical & Operational details of the Scorpene class submarines currently in construction for the Indian navy at Mazagon Docks Mumbai. This led to much diplomatic & defence ministerial consternation with an official statement stating no official secrets had been leaked & the matter being quietly buried .It is worth noting here that Reuters in December 2019 pointed to this data leak as the reason why India had decided against exercising an option for an additional three boats, the news by Reuters was never officially confirmed.
The 2nd part of the 30 year plan which called for another simultaneous line called P75I building 6 more SSKs is under negotiations now with the frontrunner reportedly being Naval Group which has apparently offered India an enlarged modified version of the Scorpene in conjunction with its old partner MDL. That said Russia has queered the pitch & made this much more than a simple acquisition program with a proposal for an India Centered Submarine JV on the lines of the successful Brahmos program. Reports indicate that under the terms offered India will be free to build as many of the SSKs as it wants with export rights as well. The key to this project is the DRDO AIP again, Russia has so far struggled with AIP technology & the DRDO AIP would likely become an item of reverse tech transfer for integration on Russia’s own fleet of nearly 20 Diesel electric submarines making this a lucrative proposal for both parties.The Russian Design would integrate the Brahmos missile as well something on which clarity has not been received yet from their French competition. It is worth noting here that United Shipbuilding from Russia has sought to acquire the bankrupt PIPAVAV yard once owned by Reliance Defence, it may not be farfetched to see that yard become the nerve center for an Indo Russian Submarine Joint Venture corporation in the near future.
The Future for the Indian Navy has to be indigenous & in this regard India has developed a series of technologies that are currently being incorporated into its existing fleet of SSKs as they are upgraded. A number of these technologies are being used in the indigenous SSBN/SSN programs as well. Key amongst these are DMR249B Submarine grade steel which is now being produced in industrial quantities at SAIL Durgapur, the USHUS Sonar & Panchendriya Combat Suite which are both now part of standard fitment on upgraded KILO Class SSKs. It is also worth noting that there are at least two Indian manufacturers that have a known capability to manufacture Batteries for Submarines .HBL Batteries headquartered at Hyderabad manufactures 12391 Wh to 40300 Wh Batteries for Submarines at its facilities in Telangana, Andhra Pradesh, Uttarakhand & Haryana.
Exide Industries India also manufactures Batteries for Submarines and currently meets 100%of the requirement of Submarine batteries for the Indian Navy. Exide also has a license to export Submarine batteries and has exported submarine batteries to Algeria and Russia in the past. Exide is on the list of registered Submarine battery vendors for the Russian Submarine Design Bureau RUBIN as well. India has also developed indigenous Anechoic tiles that are manufactured at Mysore & now adorn all the SSKs in the Indian Naval fleet .A series of Submarine fired weapons including both lightweight & Heavyweight torpedoes remain in development & should be part of future fitment for indigenous SSKs.
The holy grail of modern SSK development is Air independent propulsion & after a lot of hits & misses which included experimentation with at least two different types of AIP (Air independent Propulsion) Fuel Cell technologies called PAFC (Phosphoric acid fuel cell) & PEMFC (polymer electrolyte fuel cell).The DRDO has reportedly perfected the world’s first Phosphoric Acid Borohydride hydrolysis based fuel cell that is reportedly scalable to an output of up to 500kW & a modular construction that allows for modules to be fabricated for any submarine as desired. This allows for AIP modules to be prebuilt & simply plugged into each P75 Scorpene as they come in for their midlife refits starting 2024.The technology has already been transferred to industrial partners so the modules can be fabricated & tested in conditions mimicking a Scorpene hull for an extended period before they are finally installed onto submarines starting 2024.
Apart from the conventional Submarine developments listed India has also embarked on a multi decadal plan to build nuclear submarines with an initial plan for 6 SSBN (Submersible Ship ballistic nuclear) & 6 SSN already approved & well in progress. That said India has no plans at the moment for an all nuclear underwater fleet and may actually be looking to increase SSK numbers beyond the earlier mentioned 24. Erstwhile defence minister the late Manohar Parrikar said something to the effect when in 2016 while speaking at a FICCI seminar on undersea defence technologies he mentioned that the Indian Navy need not limit itself to 24 SSKs but must plan for expanding its undersea fleet. That said the current delays with SSK acquisition have necessitated life extension refits on all four Type 209 SSKs & eight boats of the KILO fleet. It's worth noting here that Russia has offered India three rebuilt Kilos provided a Russian yard gets the order to upgrade three Kilo SSKs currently up for refit.
The Bay of Bengal & Arabian Sea have seen a steady cooperative buildup in undersea combat capabilities by Pakistan and China, both neighbors with which it has been in conflict in the recent past. China fields one of the largest fleets of attack submarines comprising six Jin Class ballistic missile nuclear-powered attack submarines (SSBNs), nine modern Shang Class SSNs and 53 SSKs currently deployed with plans to build at least six more SSNs & SSBNs of an even more advanced design. It is worth noting here that the PLAN SSK fleet is undergoing steady renewal with older obsolete Ming class vessels getting phased out & replaced by modern Yuan & Song class vessels with Stirling AIP engines. China has entered the underwater arena in subcontinental waters by exporting submarines to Pakistan and Bangladesh. China will be delivering eight S20 class SSKs to the Pakistan Navy between 2021 & 2028. The first four will be built by China Shipbuilding Industry Corp., which will also set up a training center in Karachi, and will be delivered by 2023, while the remainder will be assembled at the Karachi Shipbuilding and Engineering Works by 2028.
The Pakistan Navy already operates three Agosta 90Bs (Khalid class) submarines purchased in the 1990s which are currently being modernized by Turkish Shipbuilding firm STM. The fleet also has two older Agosta 70s (Hashmat class) dating from the late 1970s, the Hashmat class will likely be progressively retired as the S20 submarine deliveries begin & should give the Pakistan Navy the capability to deploy eleven relatively modern AIP equipped SSKs by 2030. Bangladesh has acquired two Type 035G Ming-class diesel-electric submarines from Beijing in a U.S. $193 million deal. These are the first submarines in the Bangladesh Navy ,two submarine bases to host these vessels are currently under construction at Cox Bazar & Patuakhali. Another new entrant to the Submarine arena in subcontinental waters in Myanmar which has recently been transferred one old KILO submarine from India post refit, there are indications that Myanmar is looking to acquire two more KILO class SSKs directly from Russia as well.
It is imperative that India keep pace with developments in the subcontinental region with an increased boost towards increasing submarine combat capabilities & numbers so that the Indian Navy can maintain effective Sea Denial against any adversarial force that may try to wrest away it’s stewardship of the Indian Ocean in the near or distant future.Submarine force development is a key part of maintaining deterrence against any adversaries. As detailed earlier submarine force growth in India has suffered numerous setbacks throughout the years & numerous well set acquisition plans now lie in tatters. This has contributed to a scenario where adversarial forces appear to have narrowed the lead India had with regard to capabilities in the underwater sphere. It is imperative that these problems are sorted out at the earliest so that a large modern effective armada of submarines can give the Indian Navy the same dominance in the underwater domain that the surface fleet enjoys vis a vis its immediate adversaries.
...one long pending project is about to get kick-started by end of August. The RFP for procurement of submarines through the Strategic Partnership model is likely to be issued soon.
Six advanced submarines will be built under project P-75I to scale up the Indian Navy’s undersea warfare capabilities. The contract is likely to be worth Rs 50,000 crores.
The participating foreign yards are the French Naval Group, German conglomerate Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems, Russia’s Rubin Design Bureau, Spain’s Navantia & South Korea’s Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering Company. L&T and Mazagon Docks are the Indian partners
I hope as an interim measure to upkeep our submarine fleet numbers the Navy will go for the option of Used Kilo's (in Russian service) which will be upgraded.
This is more egregious than MRCA, while this slow motion dog and pony show is happening the existing line at Magazon is coming to a halt (follow up orders should have been given years ago).
Vips wrote:I hope as an interim measure to upkeep our submarine fleet numbers the Navy will go for the option of Used Kilo's (in Russian service) which will be upgraded.
Why Saar do you want used Kilos, when I can give you brand new Kilos?
Six new boats for around $2 billion and all six will be in service *BEFORE* 2030.
Or the Navy can once again wait for unobtanium and wait till *AFTER* 2030, for the first P75I vessel to join.
I just went back and checked the date on the first post of this thread - Oct 2014. A full SIX years later we have news that the RFP might be issued soon.
Rakesh wrote:And check in another six years, the situation will still be the same
It gets worse. Even if the RFP does get issued, if it includes IN's fantasy of Brahmos VLS in a diesel sub then it might very well end up like the IA's multi-caliber rifle tender where none of the manufacturer's could satisfy the QR's.
Vips wrote:I hope as an interim measure to upkeep our submarine fleet numbers the Navy will go for the option of Used Kilo's (in Russian service) which will be upgraded.
Why Saar do you want used Kilos, when I can give you brand new Kilos?
Six new boats for around $2 billion and all six will be in service *BEFORE* 2030.
Or the Navy can once again wait for unobtanium and wait till *AFTER* 2030, for the first P75I vessel to join.
Admiral i doubt if new kilos are available for $300 Million a pop. I know this figure has been quoted a lot citing purchases by Vietnam and others.
The reason is if the new ones were available for $300 Million then how come Russia offered us refurbished Kilos (30 year old Kilos from its feet) at about the same price?
The offer was for 3 used (and modernized) Kilos from Russian Navy + Modernization of 3 Kilos in the Indian fleet at $1.82 Billion.
