India Border Watch: Security and Operations

[Rakesh]

Times of India reports Riyaz Naikoo killed.

[la.khan]

Dr.APR tweets

6 AWACS of enemy are airborne now including 1 radar jammer.... Generally it's happen very rarely. As far as I know, for the first time since February 2019 tension....Just wait and watch.

Dear friends of Pakistan

Sleep tight, PAF is ....... like 26 February 2019
Face with tears of joy

6 AWACS? From where did these beggars get 6 AWACS? I thought they had 3 Swedish Eyeries, of which only 1 survived/available.

[vimal]

After 70 years India still reacting. Predictable, slow and never willing to take the fight to them.
I'm glad Indira for all her flaws did what she did in 71, otherwise this would be a double whammy.

[Aditya_V]

Yup and many think Pakistan wants to be peaceful with us, I would rather wait for things to quieten down and hit them when do not expect but create huge casualties.

[sajaym]

Gents, Riyaz had a bounty of Rs.12 Lac on his head. This is where there is an opportunity for us to make the Kashmir coin ops into an economic activity just like terrorism is an economic activity for Pakistan. We need to bring in PMCs (Private Military Contractors) into Kashmir. Please consider these points:

1. Every time a pig (Pakistani Insurgent Guy) takes down a regular soldier, a huge amount of experience & costs go down the drain. That kind of damage takes time to recover. If we can maintain a steady pipeline of headcount for coin ops with necessary experience at lower cost, we can sustain the damage & maintain offensive pressure. ENTER PMCs - By allowing retired soldiers to form PMC companies/become PMCs we can ensure that their experience gets retained PLUS if these people recruit & train civilians (eg. unemployed youth, losers) to become PMCs then they can pass on their experience and also generate valuable employment opportunities as well as getting rid of social misfits. Selective use of PMCs ...especially in the kind of standoffs that we've seen over the past couple of days, will definitely take the pressure off the regular security forces.

2. With the creation of Kashmir into a union territory, the path has been cleared for economic regeneration of Kashmir. But who will be ready to do business in Kashmir and who can provide security to the people who want to do business in Kashmir? Will it be possible for the already stretched security forces to provide security to individual businesses also? Nyet! ENTER PMCs - By allowing in PMCs to function as bounty hunters to target pigs like Riyaz and collect the bounty, we can make it economically feasible for PMCs to operate. Not only that, economic viability can also be provided by allowing PMCs to provide security to the businesses which come into Kashmir and even by allowing PMCs to operate their own EEZs within Kashmir. In a worst case scenario, if required certain flexibility should also be given to PMCs to operate businesses like marijuana production (medical purposes), human trafficking (under strict monitoring/licensing/quota fixation by authorities).

Some people may not be able to digest the above suggestions in the Indian context. But the presence of PMCs in hotspots around the world (from Iraq to Afghanistan) is proof of their viability, and there is a strong requirement and business case for their introduction into the Kashmir scenario.

[basant]

Dr.APR tweets

6 AWACS? From where did these beggars get 6 AWACS? I thought they had 3 Swedish Eyeries, of which only 1 survived/available.

PAF purchased 6xSaab 2000 w/ Erieye and and 4xShaanxi Y-8F600. Also has Falcon 20 for EW. One Saab 2000 was destroyed in a terrorist attack, while 2 that were damaged are made operational. Some reports claim total Saab AWACS as 4.

[Sid]

Gents, Riyaz had a bounty of Rs.12 Lac on his head. This is where there is an opportunity for us to make the Kashmir coin ops into an economic activity just like terrorism is an economic activity for Pakistan. We need to bring in PMCs (Private Military Contractors) into Kashmir. Please consider these points:

.......................

PMC will be Indian citizens (and mostly retired Army folks), their deaths will be equally disastrous. And tying your monthly invoices to heads you can collect will bring corruption to whole process.

[Manish_P]

Gents, Riyaz had a bounty of Rs.12 Lac on his head. This is where there is an opportunity for us to make the Kashmir coin ops into an economic activity just like terrorism is an economic activity for Pakistan. We need to bring in PMCs (Private Military Contractors) into Kashmir. Please consider these points:

...

Worth thinking over

In addition to the points you mentioned there is one other possible use case. At some point in time, we will need to resettle people there (for discussion sake - say the kashmiri pandits to start with). They will probably be need to be kept in enclaves needing security. Such PMCs can be useful there as the immediate responders, giving vital time & intelligence to the regular forces.

PMC will be Indian citizens (and mostly retired Army folks), their deaths will be equally disastrous. And tying your monthly invoices to heads you can collect will bring corruption to whole process.

Since asset (people, property, materials et all) security could be the primary role, the way of remuneration need not be on the basis of scalp hunting. However more than the possible issue of corruption, i think this idea would be a non-starter because the GOI has traditionally been averse/scared of private organisations bearing arms. Also am not sure of how receptive the Indian Army will be about the PMCs (even if it is entirely composed of ex IA folk), although it won't be a turf war as such nor poaching of good personnel, unless the private companies pay the PMCs much more handsomely than the GOI pays the regular military.

But a concept certainly worth pondering over.

[manjgu]

the Ikwani concept was best..sad we didnt carry it forward enough. PMC usually work outside of parent country...plus the 'secular' cabal will challenge things legally etc...then there is issue of housing them..funding them initially...not workable in india. we need to go back to ikwanis...

[ArjunPandit]

this PMC concept seems to be imported from US military, where the govt likes to do a lot of stuff with plausibility of deniability. While not a bad idea, I doubt Indian govt/babudom operates like this. This idea is good in theory, but good luck in moving files through this generation of babudom and then media/courts. Please dont forget what happened to TSD a govt organization.
This idea has been tried in some form or other against naxals (salwa judam) or against terrorists in kashmir(ikhwanis). I am sure this idea would have crossed the eyes and minds of those in power. My viewpoint is that India wants to show that the state is in control in J&K and thats why they are doing what they are doing and dont need to use covert means. And if we wanted to do there would have been many things we could have done with likes of hurriyat or jklf retirees or the families of active terrorists could be treated the way they were in 90s or the way they were treated in punjab.

Also, if we are going for settling army men then the same retired personal can be resettled with police/military protection. With the current force levels, it shoudl have been done, with a firm first. I dont think GoI has any plans of either PMC or resettling even in this term.
PS: There was a joke or serious point made by a jat friend of mine..let the GoI cut plots for them whereever needs to be done and they will take care of the rest..this is a battle that wont be won by morality

[Manish_P]

^ Agree about the babudom.

Salwa Judam and ikwanis may not be the right comparison since the concept being proposed here is staffing to be entirely ex-IA (indian military)

Agree with the Jat friend of yours. The ultimate solution cannot happen without a demographic change. Just that the start has to be with the KPs (with layered protection) so that the BIF-MSM(compromised) don't raise a stink before the building blocks are in place.

Last from me here, since the discussion is more suited to the Strategic threads.

[Vivek K]

Is there a lesson in how Israel changes demographics or pushes settlements? Perhaps that could be the model.

[Mort Walker]

Identify and confirm identities of stone throwers and rioters. Present a formal case to them and the punishment will be seizure of plot and bull-dozing of any structures. This plot will be provided free of cost to security force personnel and family to permanently settle in J&K.

[nam]

If you want to do demo change, instead of getting baited by forcefully moving people around and getting in to a media circus, incentive people in Jammu to "over produce".

Get some "group" to financially support families to have more kids. Move people who are in the border with jammu, in to jammu, as they would be familiar to local language and cultural. Give more power to politicians from jammu in form of finance and air time.

We get to hear "modern thoughts" like "India is over populated, we need population control laws yada yada..". It is a idiotic thought.

Indian & Chinese civilization has survived, not due to some "superior culture". It is due to numbers. Simple. It is always about the numbers.

Nothing earth shattering will happen, if we are over populated.

[Larry Walker]

From what I understood is this - none of these jihadi ravers and ranters were seen around while ops were in, presumably because either they feared that army may kot hesitate to shoot or maybe because police held them further back. .. but whatever be the reason. Now once the ops are concluded and mopped-up, you let these jokers gather and show their impotent rage ... Give them one beaten up police truck just to dd fuel to fire and videograph and store evidence while they are at it. Next time they come looking for police verification or clearance for important work ..viola. . there is a video. Plus rounding them up as mischevious elements for rest of their adult life during any bandobast or elections .. life long pain

[Lisa]

Police in the US and UK use these all day long. Why are they not used in India? Does anyone know?

It is a very public demonstration and IMHO would make most reluctant to be done over in such a way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfKWVrXKbn0

[mmasand]

Police in the US and UK use these all day long. Why are they not used in India? Does anyone know?

It is a very public demonstration and IMHO would make most reluctant to be done over in such a way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfKWVrXKbn0

Police reform act has been sitting in a safe untouched for the last 12 years. No Home Minister since Chidu, despite all his flaws/corruption has shown any intent of reforming the structure, application, or recruitment. With Art 370 gone, so is the cover on extra judicial 'methods' used by J&K police. BSF too is archaic with no attempt at reform since it's raising.

[parikh_ind]

Times of India reports Riyaz Naikoo killed.

This cop is a loud mouth prima donna. Why stop with operational details , Should have named the local source and given his address and phone number also.

[basant]

Tweet from Dr.APR

Connect d dot

India again strongly declared PoK & Gilgit-Baltistan as part of India

Google remove LoC from map

IMD started announcing weather forecast for Muzafarabad & Gilgit -Baltistan

Work started on financial sanctions on Pak

Artilleries replaced mortar on LoC

& Now

[Nihat]

I sincerely hope this water diversion news is true. We have put in a lot of work on building storage capacity along the region and its time we begin using it as effective leverage

[ArjunPandit]

I sincerely hope this water diversion news is true. We have put in a lot of work on building storage capacity along the region and its time we begin using it as effective leverage

well most likely this is our share that was flowing..had it been their share.we would have seen complaints to the level of guardians of galaxy...

[sajaym]

India, China face off along Sikkim border

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... P0gEJ.html

Scores of Indian and Chinese soldiers were involved in a tense face-off along the India-China boundary in north Sikkim on Saturday, two senior officials said on the condition of anonymity. The aggressive confrontation between the troops from the two sides happened near the Naku La sector (ahead of Muguthang), a pass at a height of more than 5,000 metres, said the first officer cited above. Several soldiers were injured in the border stand-off as they exchanged blows. “Four Indian soldiers and seven Chinese troops suffered injuries during the confrontation that involved around 150 soldiers,” said the second officer cited above. He said the face-off was resolved at the local level.

A significant event like this happens and still...

Two officials Hindustan Times spoke to in the Army Headquarters denied knowledge of the face-off.

Makes me wonder who these 'two officials' in Army HQ were -- the maali and the kaamwali bai?! TOI's sources could be highly dubious. But I sincerely hope that the Army HQ is well aware of the incident given that so much has been written about our armed forces progress towards Network centric warfare capabilities. The Army HQ should ideally be having real time overwatch in such scenarios especially since it's the Chinese.

[suryag]

BTW what do you expect the AF officers to do give running commentary on score ? there is a well established structural process to disseminate information and officers are very disciplined in most cases and do not shoot off their mouths easily

[Manish_Sharma]

https://theprint.in/opinion/with-him-vi ... ssion=true

With ‘Him Vijay’ & Mountain Strike Corps, India can alter the way China border is managed

Indian Army's Mountain Strike Corps signals a historic shift in the way India defines deterrence in its relationship with China.

SAURAV JHA
9 October, 2019

China  has reportedly expressed concern about the Indian Army’s ‘Him Vijay‘ exercise currently taking place in distinct phases in Arunachal Pradesh. The Chinese reaction is hardly surprising given the strategic significance of this exercise, which marks the unequivocal operationalisation of various elements of the Indian Army’s XVII Corps or Mountain Strike Corps, headquartered in Panagarh, West Bengal.

As the name suggests, this Corps has been specifically raised and designed to undertake offensive operations across the Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China. This, in turn, reflects a major change in India’s military posture vis-à-vis China, which has historically been of a wholly defensive orientation. Indeed, the People’s Liberation Army Ground Force (PLAGF) can no longer simply decide when and where to provoke the Indian Army, while being content with the belief that the best India could do was reinforce its position in the vicinity of the provocation.

More importantly, the Mountain Strike Corps signals a shift in the way India defines deterrence in its relationship with China.

Deterrence as a military tactic

Deterrence usually takes a couple of forms. The first is the case of ‘deterrence by denial’. In this, the strategy is to deter enemy action by undermining a potential aggressor’s confidence in being able to attain key objectives, without incurring unacceptably high costs or risks. The second is ‘deterrence by punishment’, which seeks to temper aggressive intent by threatening to impose unacceptably high penalties on a potential attacker.

Since 1962, India has essentially maintained a ‘deterrence by denial’ posture along the LAC with the creation of several Indian Army mountain divisions designed to deny the Chinese any target of value, such as Tawang, which has historically been the most contentious element in India-China’s border dispute. This strategy, referred to as ‘dissuasion’ in Indian military parlance (dissuasion being the French word for ‘deterrence’), saw border areas being intentionally kept devoid of adequate infrastructure in order to make a Chinese advance that much more difficult, even as large Indian Army formations would seek to keep a close check on them in localised battles.

Unfortunately, by the 2010s, this dissuasive strategy became increasingly inadequate to deal with China’s current strategy of leveraging the potent communications infrastructure it has created on the Tibetan Plateau to intermittently provoke India with transgressions and even intrusions. These Chinese infringements intend to serve as a blackmail, reminding New Delhi of the possibility of de-facto occupation of parcels of territory owing to the mobilisation advantage possessed by Beijing’s forces.

The Indian Army’s response to this Chinese game has been to forward deploy troops even as it scrambles to fix infrastructural gaps. As a consequence, the Army is now almost linearly arrayed along the LAC without adequate defence in depth in certain sectors. It has also had to reinforce these forward posts over time in order to prevent them from being overwhelmed by Chinese patrols, besides increasing the frequency of its own patrols. But defending every ‘inch of soil’ along a Himalayan frontier is a financially expensive and logistically cumbersome proposition.

Moreover, while it is true that the PLAGF has been surprised by the sheer number of Indian troops it has encountered during recent transgressions and may even face reverses in a minor skirmish, the overall problem of the Chinese being able to mount a major offensive, with India being on the strategic defensive, cannot be addressed by forward deployment. If anything, it further reduces the Indian Army’s flexibility. The Chinese are still able to choose where and when to concentrate forces, and India is left scrambling to respond to a Chinese build-up.

Utilising MSC to an advantage

The answer, therefore, for India to be able to counter such threats lies in the creation of an offensive element that can deliver a ‘riposte’ by capturing a target of value in Tibet, just so that it could be used as a bargaining chip during a negotiation settlement on post-cessation of hostilities.

However, merely creating an MSC headquarters somewhere and raising a sizeable number of Indian Army troops does not constitute a deterrent. For the MSC to be effective, it must have very peculiar characteristics in terms of structure, equipment pattern and employment concepts, which in turn have to be refined via operational training.

This is precisely why ‘Him Vijay’ holds significance and has worried China. It shows that the MSC has matured enough for it to be operationally trialled in a major exercise.

Particularly noteworthy is the fact that for ‘Him Vijay’, the MSC is deploying three Integrated Battle Groups (IBGs) that are offensively oriented and brigade-sized formations with integral artillery firepower and support elements. The troop strength of these IBGs suggests that the Indian Army has arrived at a fighting formation strength and structure suited to the logistical realities of mountainous terrain.

Now, there will always be a temptation to employ MSC elements in local counter-attacks to supplement the defensive fight by Indian Army mountain divisions. Indeed, the choice of exercise area for ‘Him Vijay’ in Arunachal Pradesh may lead some to believe that this might be a key role for the MSC to display its military prowess.

However, reportage about the objectives of the three IBGs being deployed during ‘Him Vijay’ suggest that the MSC’s brief is true to its name with ‘air assault’, ‘troop mobilisation’ and ‘mountain assault’ capabilities being tested during the exercise.

The positioning of the MSC’s other division, the 72nd, all the way North in Pathankot, suggests that the MSC is not going to be an area-specific enterprise, which intends to make it difficult for Chinese planners to pre-empt an offensive by blocking possible axes of advance into Tibet.

MSC — India’s prized possession

Interestingly, there is an obvious target for the MSC that the PLAGF may not be able to do much about. One is, of course, referring to the Chumbi Valley at whose foot lies the Doklam plateau that has emerged a flashpoint in recent times.

In fact, a credible MSC will undermine whatever psychological bulwark the PLAGF has been trying to gain by encroaching Doklam from the narrow confines of Chumbi.

Not only is there a major Indian presence on the flanks of Chumbi, the MSC will also in due course confer upon the Indian Army the capability to occupy dominating positions closer to the head of the Chumbi Valley in Tibet.

Indeed, the Chumbi Valley represents an ideal location in that the MSC elements will be capable of moving forward from launchpads secured by other Indian Army formations.

Overall, this shift in the Indian posture, if sustained through resources and commitment, will likely lead to a change in the way the India-China border is managed.

Credible offensive capability will make it psychologically easier for India to move back troops from the LAC in certain areas and instead use reserves and remote surveillance to mark its presence, much like the Chinese do today. Of course, this shift can only work once adequate transport infrastructure is in place. Perhaps this is the real challenge India must overcome at the earliest.

The author is a former consultant to FICCI’s International Division and Chief Editor of Delhi Defence Review. His Twitter handle is @SJha1618. Views are personal. 

[Larry Walker]

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/125 ... 50950?s=19

Nice video posted by babaji showing terrorists being blasted away in Porkistan

[dinesha]

Chinese choppers spotted near Ladakh LAC prompt alert, IAF fighters rushed in: Report
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 9mSKJ.html

[Aditya_V]

Chinese choppers spotted near Ladakh LAC prompt alert, IAF fighters rushed in: Report
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 9mSKJ.html

Looks like these are done to keep thier tallen and deepen friends protection

[TushS]

Chinese choppers spotted near Ladakh LAC prompt alert, IAF fighters rushed in: Report
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 9mSKJ.html

Why fighters, why not LCH armed with A2A? Reason why they needs to be inducted quickly and in large numbers.

[Aditya_V]

Very simple fighters can cover ground very fast and engage Helicopters from long range, and LCH is not ordered, let alone inducted. Helicopter A2A is more like a last resort engagement, not designed for intercepts like fighters.

[ArjunPandit]

https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 2865095680

Chinese helicopters near LAC is not news; what's relevant is that we can track them through forward deployed Low Level Light Weight Radars from DRDO, like the ones mentioned below:
- Bharani: 2D LLLW Radar
- Aslesha: 3D LLLW Radar

[MeshaVishwas]

Very simple fighters can cover ground very fast and engage Helicopters from long range, and LCH is not ordered, let alone inducted. Helicopter A2A is more like a last resort engagement, not designed for intercepts like fighters.

IIRC having the Mistral/Stinger is to give anti UAV capability to the heptrs.

[dinesh_kimar]

From Babaji twitter:

"Pak PM IK call Chinese President XI & informed him that IA may attack & capture PoK & Gilgit-Baltistan & seek Chinese help.What the Chinese President replied is not known bt our agencies got information about this phone call from Chinese sources."

China needs to sound a warning due to the corona crisis, wat better way than to give poor ol' India a good beating?

We should have been prepared with roads, troops, arty guns, helos and other logistics.

We Shoulda tested more nukes, and built more delivery systems.

But more importantly, our preparations are still better than Vietnam , Israel and Afghanistan during their invasions, and the spirits of our people are high.

We are certainly better off than the times when Gen.Sagat Singh was GOC, Nathu La.

Spirits of people and good leadership is a major intangible in any conflict.

[Vips]

Man to Man the chinkis will not know what has hit them. They will remember 1967 all over again. However we need Igla's in big numbers for any Chinese air force ingress into our territory. Also Light tanks need to be bought pronto.

[ArjunPandit]

another stand off at Pangong tso
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... dakh-83815

and some nose breaking
https://www.thequint.com/news/india/ind ... nese-major

[ArjunPandit]

We should have been prepared with roads, troops, arty guns, helos and other logistics.

We Shoulda tested more nukes, and built more delivery systems.

But more importantly, our preparations are still better than Vietnam , Israel and Afghanistan during their invasions, and the spirits of our people are high.

We are certainly better off than the times when Gen.Sagat Singh was GOC, Nathu La.

Spirits of people and good leadership is a major intangible in any conflict.

past is past...and i dont think situation is not as bad as it is made out to be..time to keep the powder dry...

[Deans]

Chinese choppers spotted near Ladakh LAC prompt alert, IAF fighters rushed in: Report
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 9mSKJ.html

Why fighters, why not LCH armed with A2A? Reason why they needs to be inducted quickly and in large numbers.

The helicopter's ceiling is not very much higher than the altitude along the LAC in Ladakh. They will be very sluggish and vulnerable to Manpads.
I understand the Dhruv has a slightly higher ceiling than the Chinese Z-10.

[ArjunPandit]

wasnt ALH for the high altitude operations.....

[ricky_v]

The Indian military declared on Sunday that there was a violent clash between the Chinese and Indian border guards. The soldiers of the two sides once fisted and threw stones at each other. The location of the conflict occurred in a disputed border area on the plateau. The Indian military did not provide exact numbers of wounded soldiers. Singapore ’s Lianhe Zaobao quoted anonymous Indian military officials as saying that four Indian soldiers and seven Chinese soldiers were injured in the incident.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=C10AU_1589199362

[Mollick.R]

Ladakh on alert after old flashpoint at Galwan river is back in focus
By Rahul Tripathi, Manu Pubby, ET Bureau|Last Updated: May 12, 2020, 11.45 PM IST


NEW DELHI: The Ladakh sector of India's disputed boundary with China continued to be on alert as reports came in that the Chinese PLA had set up tents close to the Galwan River, an old 1962 flashpoint, and started construction across the Demchok area.

Sources in the security establishment said that the Galwan river area— which saw Chinese aggression in 1962—had been reinforced after a recent face off. While troops are not in direct contact on the ground as of now, both sides have moved forces on their respective sides of the disputed boundary.

Situated in Sub Sector North, the area has long been contested by China with patrols carried out frequently by both sides. Sources said that the current round of confrontation took place at Patrol Point 14, following which appropriate steps were taken. The location is close to the Daulat Beg Oldie airfield that is the lifeline for soldiers posted in SSN.

Tension has been building up along the Ladakh border with reports that a short stand off took place at the Pangong Tso lake as well and intelligence pointing out that close to 1,000 heavy vehicles have moved in across Demchok, possibly for construction activities.

A close eye is also being kept on the Nepal border after inputs that border outposts are being reinforced and “thousands of armed police” personnel being deployed after the recent altercation over construction of a road to the Lipulekh pass.

The army did not comment on the Galwan confrontation but said that short duration face offs do take place as the border dispute with China has not been resolved. Sources in the security establishment said that tension in SSN had been building up over time after aggressive patrolling by the Chinese side.

In Demchok, a close watch is being kept on activities across the border with suggestions that an airfield could be under construction. Heavy construction along the disputed Line of Actual Control is protested by both sides as a violation of the understanding that the border would be left untouched. The Galwan river area has a painful history with China, with PLA soldiers surrounding a freshly set up Indian Army post in July 1962, in what would be one of the early triggers to the Sino-Indo war.

A similar stand off also took place at the Naku La pass in Sikkim this Saturday, , with sources saying that about a dozen soldiers were injured on both sides.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 704121.cms

[sajaym]

Currently there is a HUGE disparity in the way aggression & intrusion is dealt with on the Indo-Pak border and how it is dealt with on the Indo-China border. By adopting & continuing with this disparate treatment on the two different borders, we're helping to build the myth of Chinki invincibility/untouchability. The Chinkis need to feel the same Thappad that their Paki friends are getting on a regular basis. 1965 may have been laid to rest in 1971, but 1962 was apparently not laid to rest in 1987...enough. Unfortunately now is not the time to change the status quo, and the status quo cannot be changed until Bharat becomes Atmanirbhar in weapons.