VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18274
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Exactly. Prasun is full of it.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14332
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

The first 4 birds will touchdown at July 20 end.

India set to receive four Rafale fighters by July-end after two-month delay due to COVID-19 lockdown
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... own/592263
15 May 2020
Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5722
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

Looks like Rafale training ops are back in full swing.

Image credits in the pic itself

RB004
Image

Image

Beautiful ass on the Rafale
Image

Image
Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5722
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

Image credits in the pics themselves

RB001

Image

RB001 and RB002

Image
Image

RB002

Image

Image

Image

RB006

Image

Image

Image

RB007

Image
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18274
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/AirPowerAsia/status ... 23042?s=20 ---> The first four Rafale are now set to arrive in India (Ambala) by end July 2020. To avoid too many stops (Covid) en-route, the aircraft will have a long flight from Bordeaux in France to Al Dhafra in UAE. The flights will be supported by aerial refueling. Indian Air Force is looking forward.
TushS
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 28 Feb 2019 22:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by TushS »

Kartik wrote:Beautiful ass on the Rafale
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: It always turns me on.
Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5722
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

More IAF Rafale *****

Image credits in the pics themselves.

RB 002

Image

Image

RB004

Image

Image

Image
Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5722
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

the IAF Rafale single seater BS004

Image credit in the pics themselves

Image

Image
basant
BRFite
Posts: 894
Joined: 20 Mar 2020 20:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by basant »

There will be no delay in supply of Rafale jets to India: France
NEW DELHI:
There will be no delay in delivery of 36 Rafale jets to India as the timeline finalised for the supply of the fighter jets will be strictly respected, French Ambassador Emmanuel Lenain has said.
...
See also article from The Hindu
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by fanne »

IAF has used composite wings (like mixing Mig 21 and SU30MKI) to surprise the enemy. In exercise against the US, Mig 21 were able to take shots against F15 ably assisted by SU30MKI. Since we will be getting limited numbers of Rafale, could it be that we fly it along with other planes like SU30MKI, M2K, M29 etc? That way a single Rafale be go a long way. Instead of 2 rafale or 4 flying in same type formation, (2 ship formation will give us 18 flights, while 4 will give 9). Not all will be in air at any given time. But if we integrate MKI, M2K etc. in a formation of say 4 ships, only 1 is Rafale and rest 3 are SU30MKI or M2k. We can then have 36 potential groups. But can these planes interoperate?
In post Balakot, just having 1 Rafale would have complicated TSP plans.
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5248
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by srai »

^^^
How about Rafale and LCA pairing? Rafales provide long-range protection for LCA ingress and egress. LCA uses that umbrella to sneak in and fire kill shots from close ranges and then escape.

Need to get LCAs in numbers though. Once MWF comes into the picture excess LCA could be “donated” to friendly nations under a strategic partnership model. India still recoups costs through weapons, training, maintenance and spares for the life of the airframes.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Karan M »

With the ODL first going on the Su-30 and Tejas, expect them to start sneaky tactics, first and foremost.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14332
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

fanne wrote:IAF has used composite wings (like mixing Mig 21 and SU30MKI) to surprise the enemy. In exercise against the US, Mig 21 were able to take shots against F15 ably assisted by SU30MKI. Since we will be getting limited numbers of Rafale, could it be that we fly it along with other planes like SU30MKI, M2K, M29 etc? That way a single Rafale be go a long way. Instead of 2 rafale or 4 flying in same type formation, (2 ship formation will give us 18 flights, while 4 will give 9). Not all will be in air at any given time. But if we integrate MKI, M2K etc. in a formation of say 4 ships, only 1 is Rafale and rest 3 are SU30MKI or M2k. We can then have 36 potential groups. But can these planes interoperate?
In post Balakot, just having 1 Rafale would have complicated TSP plans.
I feel this is what made Swift Retort to Swift retreat, 6 F-16's + 2 JF 17 were firing Amraams at the 2 SU-30 MKI at Max range allowing space to Launch LGB at our Brigade HQ, they would have kept at it till they got confirmation they hit a miltary target, giving us a bloody nose, into this melee using the Pri Panjal mountains as cover, the 2 Mig 21 Bisons came in , with SAAB AEW warning all F-16;s turned tail, one of them was caught in a wrong position and fired off its Amraam at the Mig 21 Bison before it was hit by the R-73 Missile, This is the most likely scenario after seeing all the evidence.
deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4024
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by deejay »

Karan M wrote:With the ODL first going on the Su-30 and Tejas, expect them to start sneaky tactics, first and foremost.
Su 30s are a natural choice given their nos and other pairing advantages like buddy refueling. Tejas of course starts to grow from here. Another 05 years and IAF won't look any further.

Tejas is that good.
abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by abhik »

Mods can you add FAQs to the first post like the Tejas thread?

Had a few questions on the timelines - How may IAF Rafales have been produced till date, how many have been handed over to IAF, when is the last one expected to be handed over, also does IAF have an "FOC" or equivalent date for it?
basant
BRFite
Posts: 894
Joined: 20 Mar 2020 20:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by basant »

Karan M wrote:With the ODL first going on the Su-30 and Tejas, expect them to start sneaky tactics, first and foremost.
That would be at least in 2022 or so, right? :-?
Looks too far in future. :cry:
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Karan M »

They are already being fitted out to the aircraft. FOC standard LCA Mk1 includes ODL. Adding all the modes will take time.
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ks_sachin »

THE LCA IS PRETTIER....
THE RAFAEL reminds me of a kid whose cheeks have been pulled apart and pinched by an untold number of uncles and aunts....all the while saying "Oh you have grown so much!!!"
Kartik wrote:the IAF Rafale single seater BS004

Image credit in the pics themselves

Image

Image
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18274
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

abhik wrote:Mods can you add FAQs to the first post like the Tejas thread?

Had a few questions on the timelines - How may IAF Rafales have been produced till date, how many have been handed over to IAF, when is the last one expected to be handed over, also does IAF have an "FOC" or equivalent date for it?
RB001 to RB008 are all flying if I am not mistaken. That is eight twin seaters right there. RB008 will be the last Rafale to be delivered to the IAF and is the first aircraft in the full spec ISE configuration. RB008 will undergo testing till 2022 and once complete...all the remaining 35 aircraft will be upgraded by Sept 2022. Perhaps that could be considered as the FOC date. Two or more single seaters (BS003 and BS004 for sure, as pictures exist) are flying as well. That is around 2+ aircraft. So around 10 birds are flying right now. The last Rafale to arrive in India was scheduled to be in April 2022, but could be delayed due to the first batch being delayed by two months.
basant
BRFite
Posts: 894
Joined: 20 Mar 2020 20:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by basant »

Karan M wrote:They are already being fitted out to the aircraft. FOC standard LCA Mk1 includes ODL. Adding all the modes will take time.
Thanks sir for the clarification! :D

I based my inference from Nilesh Rane and Mihir Shah's article in DDR written last year. It said,
Of course, a lot of the requisite components and technologies are at a nascent stage, but are nevertheless being developed even as we write this. In fact, let alone the AMCA, we should see even the LCA/MWF and the Su-30MKI receiving significant network-centric capabilities in the years ahead.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Karan M »

India purchased some 483 SDRs, they are being fitted out to a mix of the Su-30s, Tejas (for which its a FOC requirement), Jaguars (if I remember correctly) and also some ground stations.
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5248
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by srai »

^^^
What was the hold-up all these years for not getting SDRs/secure comms?

From what I remember vaguely, IPKF SriLanka suffered from the same non-secure comms issue in the late eighties.
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ks_sachin »

srai wrote:^^^
What was the hold-up all these years for not getting SDRs/secure comms?

From what I remember vaguely, IPKF SriLanka suffered from the same non-secure comms issue in the late eighties.

Its a phenomenon of physics called Inertia aided by a generous dose of focus on marquee acquisitions...
To this add SDRs add BPJ's, helmets, rifles, radios etc...
manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2615
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by manjgu »

getting a 3rd a/c carrier seems more imp !!!
Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10033
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Mort Walker »

So assuming 4 will come in July, maybe in June while tensions with the Chinese are high, will make no difference in the strategic outlook for India.

That nearly $9 billion should have gone into the the capital investment for LCA production followed by Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A orders. We need 10 squadrons of the Tejas today!
deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4024
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by deejay »

srai wrote:^^^
What was the hold-up all these years for not getting SDRs/secure comms?

From what I remember vaguely, IPKF SriLanka suffered from the same non-secure comms issue in the late eighties.
There were reports of ODL contract way back in 2009. Tender was floated in 2006. Don't know what happened. Or maybe we all know what happened.

https://www.domain-b.com/defence/air_sp ... tract.html
A global tender for the pilot project had apparently been issued in 2006. Though all three vendors were technically qualified IAI had bid the lowest amount. If reports are to be believed then Rafael apparently offered to carry out the contract for free, which apparently became a ground for its rejection!
deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4024
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by deejay »

manjgu wrote:getting a 3rd a/c carrier seems more imp !!!
Very insightful Sir.
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by vishvak »

That nearly $9 billion should have gone into the the capital investment for LCA production followed by Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A orders. We need 10 squadrons of the Tejas today!
There are few options like Rafale (or none) that offers geopolitical freedom and tech prowess. Mk2 Tejas surely will gain from flying such an amazing aircraft though not opposing investment in LCA.
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ks_sachin »

vishvak wrote:
That nearly $9 billion should have gone into the the capital investment for LCA production followed by Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A orders. We need 10 squadrons of the Tejas today!
There are few options like Rafale (or none) that offers geopolitical freedom and tech prowess. Mk2 Tejas surely will gain from flying such an amazing aircraft though not opposing investment in LCA.
What will it gain?
Why do we need any kind of validation from the French?
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by fanne »

if I had any power, I would have the indian contingent get operationalized in France itself (as the FAF has operational experience in the plane) and then come to India so that these planes are operational from day 1. If it pushes home coming by x month so be it. We need them now, not take 2 years in desh to operationalize it.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by fanne »

We have 10 IAF Rafales flying in France. One will be used for R&D, so 9 can come to India (that is 25% of the strength). I am sure IAF is training its cream in France. Send the next cream batch, and have it ready and operational. If Rafales are that good, 9 would make a difference.
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by vishvak »

What will it gain?
Why do we need any kind of validation from the French?
IAF must have gained valuable experience flying Mirage for decades and more than validation it is about getting more than average ie best fighter jet per MMRCA conditions.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18274
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

fanne wrote:if I had any power, I would have the indian contingent get operationalized in France itself (as the FAF has operational experience in the plane) and then come to India so that these planes are operational from day 1. If it pushes home coming by x month so be it. We need them now, not take 2 years in desh to operationalize it.
The IAF contingent - air and ground crew - are trained to fly and maintain the Rafale as soon as it lands in India. No worries there.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by fanne »

Trained and operational are different. All Pilots of 45 sq are trained in LCA, and have been for years, but the plane may just be getting operational (if that). It takes time to develop doctrines, tactic, integration with other assets etc.
Operational also means much more than being well trained and would come mainly from experience and constant evaluation. In war time (like ww2), planes were obviously operationalized instantly but in peace time it is done over time (it is the most optimum). Unfortunately we are running against time.
manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2615
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by manjgu »

fanne wrote:Trained and operational are different. All Pilots of 45 sq are trained in LCA, and have been for years, but the plane may just be getting operational (if that). It takes time to develop doctrines, tactic, integration with other assets etc.
Operational also means much more than being well trained and would come mainly from experience and constant evaluation. In war time (like ww2), planes were obviously operationalized instantly but in peace time it is done over time (it is the most optimum). Unfortunately we are running against time.
well said..but if really needed it will see combat as soon as it lands
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5248
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by srai »

^^^
... in limited capacity that is.
SidSoma
BRFite
Posts: 241
Joined: 16 Feb 2018 15:09

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by SidSoma »

manjgu wrote:
well said..but if really needed it will see combat as soon as it lands
Something that Rambha cant handle....seems unlikely.
Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5722
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

IAF Rafale single seater BS003. These are the first pics of an IAF single seater Rafale flying.

Pic credit: Swiderek Maciejka

Image

Image

Image
Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5722
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

Rafale BS003 flying around Bordeaux

Pic credit: Julie Reynes

Image
Post Reply